1718:? States entrust their heads of state with varying duties, responsibilities and privileges. The term "head of state" is meant to gloss over these distinctions so the term can be applied equaly to Kings/Queens (constitutional and absolute), Presidents, Supreme Leaders, Emperors, Sultans etc. Just because the GG preforms functions that were historically performed by a King (or their direct representative), doesn't mean those duties were "head of state" duties, nor that performing them makes one a de facto head of state. The whole point of the term head of state is that it is intentionally ambitious about what duties the position entails. In any event, the
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publications to any great extent (that I can find). The one scholar that you've sourced
Kenneth Munro says "For many years, journalists and broadcasters have contributed to the confusion and fuss about who is, in fact, the Canadian head of state". Constitutional publications just don't cover this.... as academics in the field seem to simply dismiss the media arguments. Thus we need to explain why this comes up in the media and what constitutional scholars have to say.
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1488:- there's no reason to dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. Saying that something should not be mentioned because it might be "confusing" to editors or readers is a patronizing argument that literally insults the intelligence of readers. There are eight high-quality sources that either say the GG is the "de facto head of state" or that she has been described as that. Not only that, but Governor General
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appoint an agent for some of their roles. Even if that didn't hold, the monarch of Canada still exercises symbolic roles through royal visits, receiving the Prime
Minister in London, and through official communications like condolences in wake of tragedy. If we want to look to expertise, I'd also point that at least one Canadian political science scholar has
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Canada’s government independent of Great
Britain.” She further argued that “the governor general is the head of state in Canada, and is treated as such when abroad.” Clarkson’s interpretation of the Letters Patent and the designation of head of state were subject to criticism and contrary to the views of some constitutional scholars and monarchists.
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1803:, I think for an ordinary user, the use of the word is likely to create more confusion than it needs to. I get the instinct, but focus on terminology like "day-to-day" or "delegated" or "stand-in" might be more approachable, more informative, more accurate and cause future political science professors fewer headaches in correcting their students.
1496:. You can use WP:WEIGHT to argue this mention should have less prominence in the article but not as justification to remove the reference altogether and ignore eight high quality reliable sources (academic journals, mostly) used to back it up (and it's a stretch to claim a single sentence making a passing reference violates WP:WEIGHT.)
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of the constitution act). Head of state also feels like something that doesn't really have a potential category of "de facto", it is something that can only be formal. The role of the head of state is the one that provides legitimacy to state action through their existence, regardless of whether they
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the head of state, i.e. they are the de facto head of state. This is different from carrying out explicit orders: instead, the gg is acting of the gg's own volition with the monarch's full authority. The gg does not get their marching orders from the monarch... the monarch empowers the gg to exercise
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Topic not really covered outside of media in the form of click bait.....no real academic debate ..as the sources presented here state.........including
Kenneth Munro that says "For many years, journalists and broadcasters have contributed to the confusion and fuss about who is, in fact, the Canadian
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calls
Clarkson's statements "misconceptions" and a "misunderstanding of the of the letters patent." It also notes that Michaëlle Jean was slapped down by the PM when she made the similar statements you are referring to. Further, Kenneth Munro who you cite above called it "linguistic recklessness" to
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The fact that two governors general have asserted that the GG is head of state can't be dismissed. As Munro pointed out: "Adrienne
Clarkson stated that “the Governor General is the head of state in Canada, and is treated as such when abroad.” The present Governor General, Michaëlle Jean, has adopted
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Oh im sorry, I thought you were linking to the actual letters patent which is why I made my comment about OR, I didn't realise that was an article (though it is not neutral - Carolyn Harris has a definite monarchist POV). I am not suggesting we state the GG is or isn't the de facto head of state but
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One must read up to the "Role" section to discover that the modern role of the
Governor General is largely ceremonial. There is needless waffle about the King "residing in his oldest and most populous realm" - it reads like something written by a Royal historian. The statement about the tradition of
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Do you understand the difference between saying someone is something vs saying they have been described as something? The point is when even GG's have made the assertion it's not the obscure claim that some are arguing it is. No one is saying wikipedia should assert the GG is head of state, simply
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While I can understand from the perspective of those in-the-know about the
Canadian governor general that the absence of a hyphen from the title is trivial, hyphenating the title as "governor-general of Canada" and pluralizing it as "governor-generals" are common errors in the media and elsewhere.
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So then "A and B have described the governor general as Canada’s head of state, or de facto head of state, as a result of the 1947 letters patent which delegated various responsibilities of the sovereign to the governor general. However, Y and Z state that this is a misconception and that the GG
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None of the 8 sources I cited have this as a "footnote". Nor are the references "obscure" as you claim in your edit note (academic sources are considered high quality, no need to denigrate them and CBC News is one of the most widely used sites in Canada) In fact, one GG asserted she was "head of
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Concerning the
Monarchy page-in-question? I'm no longer taking part in that increasingly long discussion. The disagreement we had there, is basically the same here. I don't think the "de facto head of state" bit, needs to be included at all. But, I'll let others give their input & leave the
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In 2006, Clarkson published her autobiography, Heart
Matters, which became a bestseller. In the book, she wrote that “many politicians don’t seem to know that the final authority of the state was transferred from the monarch to the governor general in the Letters Patent of 1947, thereby making
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I've seen a number of references to the "de facto head of state" description being a result of the 1947 Letters Patent. I suggest moving the reference so it follows this sentence: "In 1947, King George VI issued letters patent allowing the viceroy to exercise almost all powers on behalf of the
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I have reworded the sentence you reverted so that it is now in quotations and says that the GG has been "described as the 'de facto head of state'." Please note the difference between saying the "GG is the de facto head of state" and "has been described as the 'de facto head of state'". I have
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I don't feel I have the expertise to suggest wording. I simply have the capability of researching and realizing that this is controversial and needs context. The article(s) are over two decades old and this has never been mentioned before. I would assume because it's not covered by scholarly
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quote="There is a common misconception that the Letters Patent, 1947 devolved the position of Head of State from the sovereign to the governor general. This interpretation of the Letters Patent has been supported by recent Governors General Adrienne Clarkson and Michaëlle Jean.....Clarkson’s
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monarch" with something like "as a result, the governor general has sometimes been described as the "de facto head of state"" and then following with this existing sentence: "As a matter of law, however, the governor general is not in the same constitutional position as the sovereign".
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That would be reading a gloss into the source. Maybe there is a First Nations institution that is older and continuous, but until that it brought forward, backed up by a reliable source, we can't assume that is the case. Nor can we assume that is what the author of
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The introductory paragraphs of the article are overly wordy. The first few sentences should clearly outline the origin of the Governor General's position, how they are appointed, their official roles and responsibilities and, importantly, their de facto role.
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So, it seems clarification in this article is helpful and I don't think a note will get noticed. To sort of try to meet the two sides halfway, I've put the spelling info back in article mainspace, but, as the last section, at the bottom. Does that suffice?
951:: I agree that we have to rely on sources, but that sentence as written is dubious. There is very likely a chiefdom in some isolated BC first nation that predates the office of the GG. The source obviously meant that it is the oldest institution
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the representative of the monarch, so I don't think it is advisable to use the word when it has that non-formal implication. It also does ignore that the monarch does have some non-trivial reserved powers not exercisable by the GG
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The overwhelming information out there just doesn't support the claim that the GG is the head of state, de facto or otherwise, nor giving such prominence to these minority views which elsewhere we have called misunderstandings and
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lead not the place for the debate about the Canadian Republic. Is this covred in the body in detail ? .....no because it's a footnote in academic Canadian publication. Should try to comeup with wording for body first
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The Canadian Press Stylebook also now provides some support for this “de facto” title, stating that the Queen is head of state, and the GG her representative in Canada and, “as such is Canada’s de facto head of
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included eight sources, several of which are academic journals, others of which are CBC News items. You may disagree with what these sources say but that's not a reason to remove reliably sourced information.
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Their duties are carried out by the governor general, who acts as the representative of the Crown — currently Charles III — in Canada. (Lieutenant-Governors fulfill the same role in provincial governments.)
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Though the Letters Patent give the governor general the authority to act as head of state both domestically and internationally, they do not change the monarch’s status as Head of State (see Monarchism).
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state" in two speeches. The argument is that the GG is the head of state as a result of the 1947 letters patent so perhaps we should add the reference in the passage that mentions the letters patent.
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simply that they have been described as such and that including that in reference to the letters patent would make sense. Rather than just reverting can you suggest a possible wording and placement?
1774:- The second paragraph of the lead basically describes very well all the reasons why it is the case, so I think a sentence mentioning this objective reality (which is the whole point of calling it
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interpretation of the Letters Patent was critiqued because it did not take into account the Statute of Westminster and other legislation that forged Canada’s independence from Great Britain. "
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I noticed you removed "head of state" from the intro, as a description of the monarch's position, but I restored it. Would it not be best to let our readers know that Charles III is
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that the claim is worth noting (and that saying the debate "doesn't exist" in Canada is contradicted by multiple sources that have either made the assertion or made note of it).
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I'm not necessarily against it in the lead, but I don't think it should be in the opening sentence. That seems a bit much for an unofficial and controversial interpretation. —
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As has been suggested by many we should find some wording for the body of the article by why of academic sources in the field. This needs to be put into context. Best follow
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1691:, you are de facto being/acting as that person. I don't understand why that is even remotely controversial, especially given the sources provided. No one is saying the gg
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1745:. The oppose comments seem to confuse "de facto" and "de jure". The proposal doesn't say "Canada's head of state", but "Canada's de facto head of state". Here is a
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had press releases issued describing herself as such and this description was used on the GG's official website. GoodDay's opposition appears to be based on
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a somewhat different position, preferring instead to refer to the Governor General as Canada’s “de facto head of state” in a September 2006 media release."
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Asking you to read what the controversies are....what is needed is context as its not simply clear cut as you imply. I also suggest we look for sources at
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Forgive me, but your arguments just aren't convincing me to agree to your proposed changes to the lead. You're free of course, to try to convince others.
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Just because "linguistic recklessness persists in describing the Governor General as our head of state" doesn't mean we need to give voice to it.
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monarch & head of state of Canada, as well as the rest of the Commonwealth realms? Anyways, if you disagree (via reverting)? I'll let it be.
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I initially reverted your changes, but then restored them. It's best for folks to see what exactly is being disputed, in the following RFC.
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or many years, journalists and broadcasters have contributed to the confusion and fuss about who is, in fact, the Canadian head of state.
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As the sovereign's representative, the governor general carries out the day-to-day constitutional and ceremonial duties of the monarch
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about the Australian GG is far easier to read and gives the layman a decent understanding of the GG's position relatively quickly.
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at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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that give context. We have talked about this before...it's not some new revelation that you found. What we are lookingf for is
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Because the opening literally says (at the moment): " ... appoints a governor general to administer the government of Canada
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has delegated some, but not all of its powers to the GG (including a significant one, the power to dismiss the GG).--
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all of which link the 1947 letters patent with the GG being in fact or being described as de facto head of state.
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you were also arguing for removing a 22-year old reference to the GG being describe as "de facto" head of state.
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Then make a proposal as to where it should be mentioned rather than simply reverting and opening an RFC - and in
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1272:(2nd ed.). Stolkholm: International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance (International IDEA). p. 3.
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While Letters Patent delegated Crown prerogatives to the governor general, the sovereign remains Head of State.
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Should it be mentioned in the lead, that the governor general is described as Canada's de facto head of state?
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I concur with Moxy on this. Not needed in the led, plenty of room to discuss the subject in the article body.
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I think de facto implies something that is rooted in practice but not in formality. The Governor General is
2094:; "Canadians still like having Michaelle Jean as their defacto head of state, a new poll suggests." CTV News
2038:, fwiw. Besides, declaring or describing yourself to be something, doesn't make you that something. PS - If
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1653:'s point above. Finally, the fact that Section 9 of the BNA vests all executive power in the monarch saying
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alternating between French- and English-speaking appointees should be relegated to further in the article.
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1676:– Yes in the lead, no in the first sentence. Maybe something like in the second paragraph (as written):
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Constitutional Monarchs in Parliamentary Democracies: International IDEA Constitution-Building Primer 7
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CBC news & CTV news have been giving this supposed big dispute 24/7 coverage? I don't think so.
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declared or described herself as "Queen of Canada". Would that make her de facto Queen of Canada?
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remains the representative of the monarch but not head of state, de facto or otherwise."
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You're asking me to conduct original research. Look at secondary sources instead such as
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the legal foundation of the executive branch of government and one part of Parliament...
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Agree we need expert opinions....thats not me. Have asked for input at our WP project.
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does not support this interpretation of the head of state controversy arising from
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official government sources, judges, constitutional scholars, and pollsters
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Also, the introduction does not even mention the name of the current GG.
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makes it pretty clear that the head of state is Queen/King not the GG.--
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Under Canada’s constitutional monarchy, the sovereign is head of state,
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It is worth considering how other encyclopedias have dealt with this.
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Myers, Richard (1994). ""The Crown in a Democracy" Revisited".
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Talk:Governor General of Canada#"de facto head of state"
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to determine whether its use and function meets the
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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Its article on the "Sovereign" states the following
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not higlighted in the lead with no context in body.
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296:renominated
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31:not a forum
2332:Categories
2040:Mary Simon
1808:Discussion
1759:asilvering
1195:References
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396:Not listed
1645:WP:WEIGHT
1469:WP:WEIGHT
1417:April 14,
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1218:(1): 35.
241:travelled
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2303:formally
1776:de facto
1359:CBC News
1333:CBC News
1313:16 April
1284:16 April
1252:(1): 13.
1229:16 April
966:contribs
641:Politics
632:politics
588:Politics
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2113:GoodDay
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2034:out of
1848:GoodDay
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1558:WP:LEAD
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856:on the
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428:B-class
321:Process
249:analyze
245:realize
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2036:thirty
1950:WP:DUE
1865:Kawnhr
1697:as/for
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1467:- Per
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516:Canada
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457:Canada
434:scale.
324:Result
282:was a
237:centre
233:colour
126:Google
1942:jstor
1922:, or
1304:(PDF)
1270:(PDF)
1038:Edits
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2320:talk
2282:talk
2264:talk
2233:talk
2138:talk
2117:talk
2103:talk
2077:talk
2063:talk
2048:talk
2007:Moxy
1983:Moxy
1971:talk
1955:Moxy
1932:talk
1924:here
1920:here
1916:here
1912:here
1901:Moxy
1895:this
1885:talk
1869:talk
1852:talk
1837:talk
1818:talk
1763:talk
1728:talk
1706:talk
1665:talk
1650:Moxy
1620:talk
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1583:talk
1567:Moxy
1540:talk
1532:5225
1516:talk
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1477:talk
1440:talk
1419:2024
1394:2024
1367:2024
1341:2024
1315:2024
1286:2024
1274:ISBN
1231:2024
1182:Moxy
1170:talk
1155:talk
1128:talk
1120:both
1072:talk
987:talk
962:talk
535:High
318:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2032:two
2010:🍁
1986:🍁
1958:🍁
1904:🍁
1772:Yes
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1739:Yes
1674:Yes
1601:🍁
1570:🍁
1527:Yes
1486:Yes
1220:doi
1185:🍁
955:. —
848:Low
660:Low
176:TWL
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1629:No
1622:)
1612:NO
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