Knowledge (XXG)

Talk:Governor General of Canada

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1718:? States entrust their heads of state with varying duties, responsibilities and privileges. The term "head of state" is meant to gloss over these distinctions so the term can be applied equaly to Kings/Queens (constitutional and absolute), Presidents, Supreme Leaders, Emperors, Sultans etc. Just because the GG preforms functions that were historically performed by a King (or their direct representative), doesn't mean those duties were "head of state" duties, nor that performing them makes one a de facto head of state. The whole point of the term head of state is that it is intentionally ambitious about what duties the position entails. In any event, the 488: 1980:
publications to any great extent (that I can find). The one scholar that you've sourced Kenneth Munro says "For many years, journalists and broadcasters have contributed to the confusion and fuss about who is, in fact, the Canadian head of state". Constitutional publications just don't cover this.... as academics in the field seem to simply dismiss the media arguments. Thus we need to explain why this comes up in the media and what constitutional scholars have to say.
705: 687: 791: 893: 770: 875: 274: 603: 582: 613: 1488:- there's no reason to dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. Saying that something should not be mentioned because it might be "confusing" to editors or readers is a patronizing argument that literally insults the intelligence of readers. There are eight high-quality sources that either say the GG is the "de facto head of state" or that she has been described as that. Not only that, but Governor General 554: 715: 801: 478: 451: 420: 219: 2311:
appoint an agent for some of their roles. Even if that didn't hold, the monarch of Canada still exercises symbolic roles through royal visits, receiving the Prime Minister in London, and through official communications like condolences in wake of tragedy. If we want to look to expertise, I'd also point that at least one Canadian political science scholar has
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Canada’s government independent of Great Britain.” She further argued that “the governor general is the head of state in Canada, and is treated as such when abroad.” Clarkson’s interpretation of the Letters Patent and the designation of head of state were subject to criticism and contrary to the views of some constitutional scholars and monarchists.
1010: 1803:, I think for an ordinary user, the use of the word is likely to create more confusion than it needs to. I get the instinct, but focus on terminology like "day-to-day" or "delegated" or "stand-in" might be more approachable, more informative, more accurate and cause future political science professors fewer headaches in correcting their students. 1496:. You can use WP:WEIGHT to argue this mention should have less prominence in the article but not as justification to remove the reference altogether and ignore eight high quality reliable sources (academic journals, mostly) used to back it up (and it's a stretch to claim a single sentence making a passing reference violates WP:WEIGHT.) 2310:
of the constitution act). Head of state also feels like something that doesn't really have a potential category of "de facto", it is something that can only be formal. The role of the head of state is the one that provides legitimacy to state action through their existence, regardless of whether they
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the head of state, i.e. they are the de facto head of state. This is different from carrying out explicit orders: instead, the gg is acting of the gg's own volition with the monarch's full authority. The gg does not get their marching orders from the monarch... the monarch empowers the gg to exercise
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Topic not really covered outside of media in the form of click bait.....no real academic debate ..as the sources presented here state.........including Kenneth Munro that says "For many years, journalists and broadcasters have contributed to the confusion and fuss about who is, in fact, the Canadian
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calls Clarkson's statements "misconceptions" and a "misunderstanding of the of the letters patent." It also notes that Michaëlle Jean was slapped down by the PM when she made the similar statements you are referring to. Further, Kenneth Munro who you cite above called it "linguistic recklessness" to
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The fact that two governors general have asserted that the GG is head of state can't be dismissed. As Munro pointed out: "Adrienne Clarkson stated that “the Governor General is the head of state in Canada, and is treated as such when abroad.” The present Governor General, Michaëlle Jean, has adopted
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Oh im sorry, I thought you were linking to the actual letters patent which is why I made my comment about OR, I didn't realise that was an article (though it is not neutral - Carolyn Harris has a definite monarchist POV). I am not suggesting we state the GG is or isn't the de facto head of state but
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One must read up to the "Role" section to discover that the modern role of the Governor General is largely ceremonial. There is needless waffle about the King "residing in his oldest and most populous realm" - it reads like something written by a Royal historian. The statement about the tradition of
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Do you understand the difference between saying someone is something vs saying they have been described as something? The point is when even GG's have made the assertion it's not the obscure claim that some are arguing it is. No one is saying wikipedia should assert the GG is head of state, simply
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While I can understand from the perspective of those in-the-know about the Canadian governor general that the absence of a hyphen from the title is trivial, hyphenating the title as "governor-general of Canada" and pluralizing it as "governor-generals" are common errors in the media and elsewhere.
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So then "A and B have described the governor general as Canada’s head of state, or de facto head of state, as a result of the 1947 letters patent which delegated various responsibilities of the sovereign to the governor general. However, Y and Z state that this is a misconception and that the GG
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None of the 8 sources I cited have this as a "footnote". Nor are the references "obscure" as you claim in your edit note (academic sources are considered high quality, no need to denigrate them and CBC News is one of the most widely used sites in Canada) In fact, one GG asserted she was "head of
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Concerning the Monarchy page-in-question? I'm no longer taking part in that increasingly long discussion. The disagreement we had there, is basically the same here. I don't think the "de facto head of state" bit, needs to be included at all. But, I'll let others give their input & leave the
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In 2006, Clarkson published her autobiography, Heart Matters, which became a bestseller. In the book, she wrote that “many politicians don’t seem to know that the final authority of the state was transferred from the monarch to the governor general in the Letters Patent of 1947, thereby making
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I've seen a number of references to the "de facto head of state" description being a result of the 1947 Letters Patent. I suggest moving the reference so it follows this sentence: "In 1947, King George VI issued letters patent allowing the viceroy to exercise almost all powers on behalf of the
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I have reworded the sentence you reverted so that it is now in quotations and says that the GG has been "described as the 'de facto head of state'." Please note the difference between saying the "GG is the de facto head of state" and "has been described as the 'de facto head of state'". I have
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I don't feel I have the expertise to suggest wording. I simply have the capability of researching and realizing that this is controversial and needs context. The article(s) are over two decades old and this has never been mentioned before. I would assume because it's not covered by scholarly
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quote="There is a common misconception that the Letters Patent, 1947 devolved the position of Head of State from the sovereign to the governor general. This interpretation of the Letters Patent has been supported by recent Governors General Adrienne Clarkson and Michaëlle Jean.....Clarkson’s
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monarch" with something like "as a result, the governor general has sometimes been described as the "de facto head of state"" and then following with this existing sentence: "As a matter of law, however, the governor general is not in the same constitutional position as the sovereign".
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That would be reading a gloss into the source. Maybe there is a First Nations institution that is older and continuous, but until that it brought forward, backed up by a reliable source, we can't assume that is the case. Nor can we assume that is what the author of
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The introductory paragraphs of the article are overly wordy. The first few sentences should clearly outline the origin of the Governor General's position, how they are appointed, their official roles and responsibilities and, importantly, their de facto role.
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So, it seems clarification in this article is helpful and I don't think a note will get noticed. To sort of try to meet the two sides halfway, I've put the spelling info back in article mainspace, but, as the last section, at the bottom. Does that suffice?
951:: I agree that we have to rely on sources, but that sentence as written is dubious. There is very likely a chiefdom in some isolated BC first nation that predates the office of the GG. The source obviously meant that it is the oldest institution 2305:
the representative of the monarch, so I don't think it is advisable to use the word when it has that non-formal implication. It also does ignore that the monarch does have some non-trivial reserved powers not exercisable by the GG
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The overwhelming information out there just doesn't support the claim that the GG is the head of state, de facto or otherwise, nor giving such prominence to these minority views which elsewhere we have called misunderstandings and
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lead not the place for the debate about the Canadian Republic. Is this covred in the body in detail ? .....no because it's a footnote in academic Canadian publication. Should try to comeup with wording for body first
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The Canadian Press Stylebook also now provides some support for this “de facto” title, stating that the Queen is head of state, and the GG her representative in Canada and, “as such is Canada’s de facto head of
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included eight sources, several of which are academic journals, others of which are CBC News items. You may disagree with what these sources say but that's not a reason to remove reliably sourced information.
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Their duties are carried out by the governor general, who acts as the representative of the Crown — currently Charles III — in Canada. (Lieutenant-Governors fulfill the same role in provincial governments.)
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Though the Letters Patent give the governor general the authority to act as head of state both domestically and internationally, they do not change the monarch’s status as Head of State (see Monarchism).
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state" in two speeches. The argument is that the GG is the head of state as a result of the 1947 letters patent so perhaps we should add the reference in the passage that mentions the letters patent.
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simply that they have been described as such and that including that in reference to the letters patent would make sense. Rather than just reverting can you suggest a possible wording and placement?
1774:- The second paragraph of the lead basically describes very well all the reasons why it is the case, so I think a sentence mentioning this objective reality (which is the whole point of calling it 1898:
interpretation of the Letters Patent was critiqued because it did not take into account the Statute of Westminster and other legislation that forged Canada’s independence from Great Britain. "
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I noticed you removed "head of state" from the intro, as a description of the monarch's position, but I restored it. Would it not be best to let our readers know that Charles III is
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that the claim is worth noting (and that saying the debate "doesn't exist" in Canada is contradicted by multiple sources that have either made the assertion or made note of it).
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I'm not necessarily against it in the lead, but I don't think it should be in the opening sentence. That seems a bit much for an unofficial and controversial interpretation. —
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As has been suggested by many we should find some wording for the body of the article by why of academic sources in the field. This needs to be put into context. Best follow
2387: 1691:, you are de facto being/acting as that person. I don't understand why that is even remotely controversial, especially given the sources provided. No one is saying the gg 44: 857: 731: 692: 2352: 534: 2402: 2357: 1745:. The oppose comments seem to confuse "de facto" and "de jure". The proposal doesn't say "Canada's head of state", but "Canada's de facto head of state". Here is a 847: 563: 461: 2407: 79: 1492:
had press releases issued describing herself as such and this description was used on the GG's official website. GoodDay's opposition appears to be based on
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a somewhat different position, preferring instead to refer to the Governor General as Canada’s “de facto head of state” in a September 2006 media release."
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Asking you to read what the controversies are....what is needed is context as its not simply clear cut as you imply. I also suggest we look for sources at
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Forgive me, but your arguments just aren't convincing me to agree to your proposed changes to the lead. You're free of course, to try to convince others.
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Just because "linguistic recklessness persists in describing the Governor General as our head of state" doesn't mean we need to give voice to it.
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monarch & head of state of Canada, as well as the rest of the Commonwealth realms? Anyways, if you disagree (via reverting)? I'll let it be.
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I initially reverted your changes, but then restored them. It's best for folks to see what exactly is being disputed, in the following RFC.
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or many years, journalists and broadcasters have contributed to the confusion and fuss about who is, in fact, the Canadian head of state.
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As the sovereign's representative, the governor general carries out the day-to-day constitutional and ceremonial duties of the monarch
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about the Australian GG is far easier to read and gives the layman a decent understanding of the GG's position relatively quickly.
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at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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that give context. We have talked about this before...it's not some new revelation that you found. What we are lookingf for is
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Because the opening literally says (at the moment): " ... appoints a governor general to administer the government of Canada
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has delegated some, but not all of its powers to the GG (including a significant one, the power to dismiss the GG).--
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all of which link the 1947 letters patent with the GG being in fact or being described as de facto head of state.
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you were also arguing for removing a 22-year old reference to the GG being describe as "de facto" head of state.
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Then make a proposal as to where it should be mentioned rather than simply reverting and opening an RFC - and in
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While Letters Patent delegated Crown prerogatives to the governor general, the sovereign remains Head of State.
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Should it be mentioned in the lead, that the governor general is described as Canada's de facto head of state?
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I concur with Moxy on this. Not needed in the led, plenty of room to discuss the subject in the article body.
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I think de facto implies something that is rooted in practice but not in formality. The Governor General is
2094:; "Canadians still like having Michaelle Jean as their defacto head of state, a new poll suggests." CTV News 2038:, fwiw. Besides, declaring or describing yourself to be something, doesn't make you that something. PS - If 1828: 1653:'s point above. Finally, the fact that Section 9 of the BNA vests all executive power in the monarch saying 1640: 1057:
alternating between French- and English-speaking appointees should be relegated to further in the article.
982: 948: 905: 2088:; "Right now, oversight of Canada's de facto head of state comes largely from the prime minister." CBC News 1787: 1619: 1088: 961: 1471:, the monarch is described as the head of state. IMHO, we should avoid confusing editors on this matter. 260: 55: 2206: 1894: 1705: 1676:– Yes in the lead, no in the first sentence. Maybe something like in the second paragraph (as written): 908:
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Constitutional Monarchs in Parliamentary Democracies: International IDEA Constitution-Building Primer 7
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CBC news & CTV news have been giving this supposed big dispute 24/7 coverage? I don't think so.
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declared or described herself as "Queen of Canada". Would that make her de facto Queen of Canada?
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remains the representative of the monarch but not head of state, de facto or otherwise."
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You're asking me to conduct original research. Look at secondary sources instead such as
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the legal foundation of the executive branch of government and one part of Parliament...
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Agree we need expert opinions....thats not me. Have asked for input at our WP project.
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Yes, I think it appropriate to include some text on this issue, as has been done at
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does not support this interpretation of the head of state controversy arising from
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Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 20 § President of canada
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official government sources, judges, constitutional scholars, and pollsters
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Also, the introduction does not even mention the name of the current GG.
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makes it pretty clear that the head of state is Queen/King not the GG.--
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Under Canada’s constitutional monarchy, the sovereign is head of state,
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It is worth considering how other encyclopedias have dealt with this.
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Myers, Richard (1994). ""The Crown in a Democracy" Revisited".
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Talk:Governor General of Canada#"de facto head of state"
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RFC: Description of the Governor General, in the lead
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to determine whether its use and function meets the
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology
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of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Its article on the "Sovereign" states the following
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not higlighted in the lead with no context in body.
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It includes this quote from the CP stylebook: 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 1812:I'm arguing that it shouldn't be in the intro. 1329:"Johnston named Canada's next governor general" 2363:High-importance Governments of Canada articles 2205:Its article on the Letters Patent, 1947 states 2393:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology articles 2177:Its article about the GG states the following 748:Template:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology 8: 1212:Constitutional Forum / Forum Constitutionnel 2223:describe the GG as Canada's head of state. 2184:The head of state is the Canadian monarch. 1680:, operating as the de facto head of state. 869: 832:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject British Empire 764: 681: 576: 445: 309: 268: 231:, which has its own spelling conventions ( 2388:B-Class heraldry and vexillology articles 1695:the head of state: the point is they act 943:"oldest continuous institution in Canada" 918:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Commonwealth 2353:High-importance Canada-related articles 2313:written pretty explicitly on this topic 1749:article that discusses this at length: 1388:. 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If you are acting 1685:in the monarch's name 1641:talk discussion there 924:Commonwealth articles 807:British Empire portal 556: 430:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 292:good article criteria 100:Neutral point of view 2220:Letters Patent, 1947 1846:decision with them. 1647:. I also agree with 1206:Sheaff, Tim (2023). 627:WikiProject Politics 391:Good article nominee 257:relevant style guide 253:varieties of English 105:No original research 1635:as is noted in our 1025:redirect guidelines 1019:has been listed at 1016:President of canada 999:President of canada 255:. 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Clear case of 1449: 1423: 1422: 1420: 1418: 1404: 1398: 1397: 1395: 1393: 1380:Munro, Kenneth. 1377: 1371: 1370: 1368: 1366: 1351: 1345: 1344: 1342: 1340: 1325: 1319: 1318: 1316: 1314: 1305: 1296: 1290: 1289: 1287: 1285: 1271: 1260: 1254: 1253: 1246:Dalhousie Review 1241: 1235: 1234: 1232: 1230: 1224:10.21991/cf29454 1203: 1184: 1147: 1117: 1100: 1098: 1093: 1018: 1012: 959: 926: 925: 922: 919: 916: 895: 888: 887: 877: 870: 840: 839: 836: 833: 830: 809: 804: 803: 802: 793: 786: 785: 780: 772: 765: 753: 752: 749: 746: 743: 723: 718: 717: 716: 707: 700: 699: 689: 682: 652: 651: 648: 645: 642: 621: 616: 615: 605: 598: 597: 592: 584: 577: 527: 526: 523: 520: 517: 496: 491: 490: 489: 480: 473: 472: 467: 464: 453: 446: 429: 423: 422: 414: 401:Current status: 371: 352: 333: 310: 276: 269: 228:Canadian English 224:This article is 221: 214: 206: 179: 178: 164: 95:Article policies 16: 2428: 2427: 2423: 2422: 2421: 2419: 2418: 2417: 2328: 2327: 2278:Darryl Kerrigan 2229:Darryl Kerrigan 2134:Darryl Kerrigan 2005: 1981: 1953: 1899: 1810: 1780: 1724:Darryl Kerrigan 1661:Darryl Kerrigan 1648: 1596: 1565: 1535: 1461: 1432: 1427: 1426: 1416: 1414: 1406: 1405: 1401: 1391: 1389: 1379: 1378: 1374: 1364: 1362: 1353: 1352: 1348: 1338: 1336: 1327: 1326: 1322: 1312: 1310: 1303: 1299:Franks, C.E.S. 1298: 1297: 1293: 1283: 1281: 1279: 1269: 1262: 1261: 1257: 1243: 1242: 1238: 1228: 1226: 1205: 1204: 1200: 1180: 1141: 1139: 1111: 1109: 1096: 1089: 1087: 1083: 1050: 1040: 1014: 1006: 979:Crown of Maples 945: 923: 920: 917: 914: 913: 837: 834: 831: 828: 827: 805: 800: 798: 778: 750: 747: 744: 741: 740: 721:Heraldry portal 719: 714: 712: 649: 646: 643: 640: 639: 619:Politics portal 617: 610: 590: 541:High-importance 524: 521: 518: 515: 514: 492: 487: 485: 466:High‑importance 465: 459: 427: 367: 348: 329: 261:broad consensus 208: 207: 202: 121: 116: 115: 114: 91: 61: 12: 11: 5: 2426: 2424: 2416: 2415: 2410: 2405: 2400: 2395: 2390: 2385: 2380: 2375: 2370: 2365: 2360: 2355: 2350: 2345: 2340: 2330: 2329: 2308:sections 26-27 2299: 2298: 2297: 2296: 2295: 2294: 2293: 2292: 2291: 2290: 2289: 2288: 2260:Wellington Bay 2246: 2245: 2244: 2243: 2242: 2241: 2240: 2239: 2216: 2215: 2214: 2203: 2202: 2201: 2189: 2188: 2187: 2175: 2174: 2173: 2152: 2151: 2150: 2149: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2145: 2144: 2123: 2099:Wellington Bay 2059:Wellington Bay 2021: 2020: 2019: 2018: 2017: 2016: 2015: 2014: 1996: 1995: 1994: 1993: 1992: 1991: 1990: 1967:Wellington Bay 1946:scholar.google 1928:Wellington Bay 1881:Wellington Bay 1861: 1860: 1859: 1858: 1833:Wellington Bay 1809: 1806: 1805: 1804: 1798: 1769: 1736: 1735: 1734: 1698: 1694: 1690: 1686: 1671: 1626: 1609: 1608: 1607: 1606: 1605: 1579:Wellington Bay 1550: 1533: 1524: 1523: 1522: 1498:Wellington Bay 1494:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 1490:Michaëlle Jean 1483: 1460: 1457: 1456: 1455: 1431: 1428: 1425: 1424: 1399: 1372: 1361:. 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