815:. The quote and source is attributed to the US Army, so it is the US Army saying (or thinks) that Gangnam supports the US Army, which is different from Gangnam, Korean or anyone else thinks that Gangnam supports the US Army. A bit like a primary source asserting its' opinion, rather than neutral third-party sources stating a widely known point of view. Just because 150 or so events including high profile ones such as G-20 and nuclear summit were held within the district, it doesn't mean there are support per say. It is just a matter of location and businesses bringing revenue to the area. So stating that Gangnam support them on the basis that these events were held there is stretching it a bit. There needs to be third-party sources to support such a statement and if YvelinesFrance is right (re: protests against the military) then there will also be others that states the contrary.--
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arguing that this may not (always) be the case (which I added). Anti-americanism was a major issue in Seoul, and this is true of all districts. To state that
Gangnam district is somehow completely pro-american without citing any statistics is suspicious. If you are talking about the Gangnam administration then it does seem that they have promoted exchanges etc (according to an actual source), but if you are implying that all the people of Gangnam are uniformly pro-american or pro US military, this is where I have a problem. If you have actual reliable statistics showing that most people in Gangnam support the US military, then I will have no issue with the statement, but this is clearly not the case. Lastly, this information does not belong in the lede. Anyhow, it looks like the issue has been resolved.
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from all parts of Seoul go to them. While anti-american sentiment is not as strong as it was a decade prior, this does not mean koreans are suddenly pro-american, there are actual statistics showing that most young koreans disapprove of american influence or the existence of US military camps in the country. Gangnam is a very large district, if you are claiming that most people in
Gangnam fully support the US military you'll need more than one off hand remark by a US public relations officer who doesn't even endeavour to quote any statistic.
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source than the US military public relations office. My goal here is indeed to make this article as neutral, informative and anodyne as possible, but trying to pretend that the people living in
Gangnam are some kind of stalwart US ally is not only misleading but patently false. I do agree that there have been cooperations between the US forces and the Gangnam administration but this should not be in the lead and neither should it imply that Gangnam residents are approving of US military and american influence
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837:. So far I cant find any article that mentions about people in Gangnam protesting against the US military. Whether Gangnam hosts these events to bring in revenue is debatable, but in my humble opinion its unfair to entirely remove the information. Even if the people of Gangnam are against the US military (if that is true at all), on an official level, the presence of US forces seem to be welcomed by the city. (Whether for revenue or otherwise) I think
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called a public relations officer. The information provided is not contentious. The
Washington Post article is an opinion piece and is not about the Gangnam District. At the moment the prominent but unsourced statement in the lede that there is anti-Americanism in the Gangnam District is misleading. Why an article on an affluent suburb of Seoul should have such a statement in the lede is somewhat mystifying. None of the 24 other Districts or
1265:. Despite this issue having already been resolved, the user Srich (who writes on his page that he is US military, which raises questions on his credibility) continues to add information with completely unreliable sources (A US military officer stating that Gangnam supports US forces despite no statistics or evidence?) Furthermore the source itself makes no claim that the US forces helped organize the marathon at all.
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US Army. There does not seem to be any need to mention the anti-American demonstrations and candlelight vigils in 2002 and 2004, which took place near the US Embassy and
Garrison; nor the later peasant protests about economic conditions, unless some notable incidents took place in the Gangnam District.
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The particular series of edits has been reverted. Per the edit summary, the "massive" demonstration was 10 years ago and hardly represents a "general trend". As mentioned in the comments above, the "closing" of the RS was done by editors who misread SPS guidance. (E.g., that SPS applies to other than
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The US Embassy and the US Army
Garrison are located in two quite different Districts from the Gangnam District. My view is that the the yearly Marathon in the Gangnam District is sourceable and should be mentioned. It can also be mentioned that in 2012 it was cohosted by the local authorities and the
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As posted in my edit summary, there was no proper notification of a DRN discussion. The discussion was "closed" only because a less experienced editor misread guidance about SPS. Per your comments, you take a blanket view that anything from the government is propaganda. Such views are ill-founded. If
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articles is not subject to notability standards. We evaluate with an eye towards helpfulness to the reader. Also, describing US military sources as "SPS" is a misreading of SPS guidance. That specific guidance pertains to individuals. Consider -- if we said government or businesses sources were not
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Sorry but the US military is not a reliable source. It is military propaganda, something every military has done in every country since the beginning of time. And I don't see how an american military viewpoint has anything to do with an article about a district in Seoul. Keep your military viewpoints
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The very fact that the source was written by a military PUBLIC RELATIONS officer gives us very strong reason to take the information within that military source with a grain of salt if not strong suspicion. I've also added an article by the washington post about anti-americanism, far more reliable a
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This is an article about the district, not the music video. As much as I believe that the music video should be referenced in the popular culture section, there is no reason to have it's own title in big bold letters and a link to that section, there is also already an article about the music video
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Highly ironic that the US military killing machine would host an 'international peace marathon'. Furthermore the issue was correctly resolved because this is not the US military as whole publishing this article but an individual (Walter T. Ham IV). His comments are also without sources, there is no
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As per the decision of the DRN the US military is not a useful source in this case. Inclusion of the US military is self promotional and without notability. Don't even try to argue that the US military can be a useful source, It's a propaganda machine of the government to further US and US military
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because they are "self published", we could not use material from the Center for
Disease Control, the Census bureau, National Parks Service, etc. In this particular article, there is not reason to distrust the US military press releases. The fact that Gangnam hosts a major conference is of interest
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Your edits imply that these protest concerts occurred in the
Gangnam District, which seems false. The concerts apparently occurred in the centre of Seoul. This article is about the Gangnam District not the city centre of Seoul. Please stop inserting irrelevant information. A press officer is ofetn
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The information discussed in that source is extremely un-notable. Should we talk about every single activity taken in London or New York with the blessing of the local government? As for the G-20 Seoul Summit and
Nuclear security summit, I'm sure there are many sources that are not the US military
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Psy is from the
Gangnam district, his views most likely reflect that of the general area. As for the massive performances, simply because they were not done in Gangnam does not mean people in Gangnam disagree with them. The center of Seoul is where major events and concerts take place, and people
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itself states that all viewpoints should be fairly addressed, including that of the US military, which I believe is a reliable source when it says that Gangnam has hosted 150 military events. I have yet to see an article which claims otherwise, nor have I read about US military protests which you
1642:, has inserted the phrase, "however the general trend in the area seems to be of fervent anti-americanism, as displayed in the past by massive anti-american performances" into the lede of this article. According to the citation, the basis for this comment is an article in the Washington Post on "
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Stating that Gangnam is a supporter of US forces nearly foremost in the article with no sources but the public relations officer of the US army is not contentious? What was mystifying was that there was what looked like promotional material about the US army in the lede without any other sources
523:: I don't see any discussion nor consensus to change all the '-gu', '-do' etc to their English counterpart. I prefer to see the Gangnam artile moved back to Gangnam-gu rather then complicating the issue further, especially since the editor was mislead by another who unilaterally changed the
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Don't you think that damn video should be mentioned in the lede? 800 million people are now familiar with this region due to its influence.article traffic went from below 10/day in early august, with peaks of up to 200 and 400 in late august, then consistently over 8000 by early september.
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who blog, self-publish, etc. It does not apply to the US government, or any other government agency that publishes, or corporations, or the like. Similarly, the notability of the cited source is not an issue -- we seek to evaluate the reliability of the source, and the reputation for that
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The significant US military presence is in Itaewon and other bases in Seoul. I don't believe Gangnam to be anywhere near those areas. Furthermore, there were huge protests against the US military in 2002 after the deaths of two korean schoolgirls by a big american vehicle
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Since you are so insistent, perhaps the only solution is to once again go to the dispute resolution noticeboard and see if they change their decision on the subject matter. If not, you must concede that the sources that have been used are not admissible for this article.
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Unsurprsingly the article is written by the press/public relations officer of the 8th army. We have no reason to speculate on what Korean citizens in the Gangnam District might think of the American Military. Using the phrase "american killing machine" on wikipedia is
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Again an edit regarding the US military & community support for USFK has been removed, and restored. As per the above, the DRN was not properly noticed, it was closed prematurely by an editor who misread SPS guidance, it is not the final say on such matters.
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So you think the most popular youtube video in the world relating directly to this district does not deserve mention, but the US military which has nearly no influence in the district whatsoever, does? Ridiculous.
1650:. The Washington Post article is about performances in South Korea and is not specifically about the Gangnam District. The fact that Psy's hit involves the word "Gangnam" should not be used as a pretext for
872:. I don't think the US military's source should be used. If you have another source testifying for Gangnam's support of the US military occupation, then I will not stop its inclusion in the article.
274:; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
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inserting unrelated content into this article about a suburb of Seoul. The Washington Post article does not mention the Gangnam district, so has no relevance to this particular wikipedia article.
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I've moved the stuff into a new section. Other than syntax & NPOV, the info remains. I ask that you do take a look and revise/delete IOT clear up where the demonstrations took place. Thanks.--
1247:. If the US army has announced on an official US government website that they helped organize the Seoul International Peace Marathon in October 2012, then that is a perfectly acceptable source.
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evidence whatsoever that koreans living in the Gangnam area support the US military presence, in fact there is considerable evidence otherwise (as I've just now put in the article).
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you have specific information about the attitude of the Gangnam towards the US to the contrary, please provide it. Otherwise, your comments and editing here (and elsewhere) is
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As Srich32977 has correctly said, official US government web pages are reliable sources for this kind of uncontroversial information. The matter was not properly resolved at
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for subjects that actually have something to do with the US military. Gangnam has nothing to do with the US military. Its inclusion is ridiculous, it does not belong here.
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in general? If in South Korea, your propose will be rejected. I have two reasons for Gangnam District. 1) We have decided the name Gangnam District recently by
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Not to mention the fact that Gangnam hosting the 2010 G-20 Seoul Summit and the 2012 Seoul Nuclear Security Summit has nothing to do with the US Military and yet
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I'm fine with moving Gangnam per nom. The second move is unnecessary—there is no ambiguity. I'm more concerned that the nominator has moved most of the
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reliability. (Some people do not think the military has a good reputation for reliability, others think the opposite. It is simply a matter of
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The source is meaningless and not nearly enough to support what you are stating. Just give up american military garbage does not belong here.
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without discussion. There should not be any further individual requests to add or change the English counterpart until a consensus reach at
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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792:), Gangnam has been a strong supporter of American forces for many years. I think this is well-sourced, important information but
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This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
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opinion.) If there is dispute about the reliability of government sources, I challenge editors to bring up the issue on the
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The US Military source was rejected because it was considered a self-publishing source in this context (Quote from DRN:
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
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As far as I can tell, there has been no discussion or stated support for such mass renamings. There should be. —
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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https://archive.is/20130216075008/http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/Article.aspx?aid=2939690
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both give "Gangnam district". Is an English-speaking reader more likely to understand "district" or "gu"?
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also has no ambiguity. There are 3 articles called Dalseong. Dalseong means Dalseong (castle),
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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https://archive.is/20121209024632/http://english.seoul.go.kr/gtk/news/reports_view.php?idx=18883
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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on Knowledge already. The page about Japan doesn't have a "Turning Japanese" section afterall.
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doesnt come from the US military, but from Gangnam District itself. How is that meaningless? -
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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952:(whose article includes a lot of information relevant to the district of Gangnam) AND
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QUOTE: Gangnam has been a stalwart supporter of U.S. forces in Korea for many years
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http://article.joinsmsn.com/news/article/article.asp?total_id=4556378&ctg=1201
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in Chinese characters cultures are translated to District in Knowledge English.
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a self-published source cannot be used if it involves claims about third parties
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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File:Gangnam-gu, Seoul, South Korea - February 2009.jpg Nominated for Deletion
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in which the author referred government and corporate websites as reliable.--
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then you may need to upload it to Knowledge (Commons does not allow fair use)
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http://koreajoongangdaily.joinsmsn.com/news/article/Article.aspx?aid=2939690
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This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image
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1195:. They will find support from those who have agendas, but little else. --
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I dont remember claiming that Gangnam is near those areas you mentioned.
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The idea should be to communicate with the reader, not teach him Korean.
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Knowledge talk:Naming conventions (Korean)#county articles in South Korea
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after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add
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no longer applies if the third party says the same thing about itself -
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merit mention in the lede. Not sure what you mean about Japan page. --
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individuals.) And editor is POV pushing to the point of vandalism.--
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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal.
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image page (File:Gangnam-gu, Seoul, South Korea - February 2009.jpg)
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to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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Please restrict your comments to the editing of Gangnam District.
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in Seoul has a lede containing unsourced statements of that kind.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.
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http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/culture/2013/05/135_135280.html
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http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/culture/2013/02/135_130953.html
436:) without discussion or references to support the renamings. —
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http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/culture/2008/09/135_31778.html
99:. For instructions on how use this banner, please refer to the
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and should remain. Views to the contrary must be supported by
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Knowledge:Naming conventions (Korean)#Administrative divisions
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562:. The music video is "Gangnam Style", not "Gangnam-gu Style."
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the
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YvelinesFrance, your editing here and elsewhere has become
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interst, not comparable at all with agencies like the CDC.
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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http://news.mk.co.kr/newsRead.php?year=2012&no=584891
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I have just added archive links to one external link on
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has removed it repeatedly, so lets discuss it here. -
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
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The relevant content, with sources, can be found in
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http://kosis.kr/abroad/abroad_01List.jsp?parentId=A
1425:. The US 8th army base is in a different District.
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2062:http://english.gangnam.go.kr/05_tour/sub06_01.jsp
1511:Emphasis on video toned down. It certainly does
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956:. Your viewpoint is based on your own opinion -
1211:Knowledge talk:Identifying reliable sources/FAQ
2070:This message was posted before February 2018.
1906:This message was posted before February 2018.
1758:This message was posted before February 2018.
1566:And you please stop stalking my contributions.
1283:. The correct place to ask the question is at
841:should provide a source to back up his claim -
1612:Nominated for Deletion? Oppa Gangnam Style!
748:In the official page, 'GANG NAM GU' is used.
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1986:I have just modified 5 external links on
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1990:. Please take a moment to review
1840:. Please take a moment to review
1712:. Please take a moment to review
1209:Also, I invite your attention to
1550:spout your own personal opinions
1423:Anti-American sentiment in Korea
246:
174:
72:
51:
20:
1876:Corrected formatting/usage for
621:The result of the proposal was
253:An image used in this article,
129:This article has been rated as
1017:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard
954:the district of Gangnam itself
761:10:16, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
742:02:54, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
699:16:43, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
671:02:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
639:16:17, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
360:16:55, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
1:
1824:06:58, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
1696:03:39, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1680:01:46, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1664:01:27, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1628:10:54, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
1592:00:40, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1576:00:20, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1562:21:30, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
1540:21:02, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
1490:06:57, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
1467:03:58, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1452:03:30, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1435:03:09, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1417:02:59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1402:02:47, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1382:02:14, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1366:02:00, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1333:01:56, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1314:01:09, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1299:00:59, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1275:00:19, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
1257:21:25, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
1239:21:00, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
1223:03:03, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
1205:23:38, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
1079:07:22, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
1061:19:23, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
1034:19:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
997:14:12, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
980:13:21, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
966:08:13, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
781:Gangnam Support for US Forces
386:) 06:16, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
151:This article is supported by
2138:19:07, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
1544:YvelinesFrance, please stop
1525:06:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
1505:07:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
1166:14:50, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
1147:07:26, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
1127:18:26, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
1094:18:00, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
944:05:39, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
913:17:38, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
882:17:18, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
851:17:36, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
825:17:01, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
806:07:53, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
786:According to the US military
1974:19:43, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
1646:" by the Korean rap artist
575:08:13, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
541:03:18, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
510:21:10, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
484:14:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
447:02:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
397:05:00, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
261:in the following category:
109:Knowledge:WikiProject Korea
2178:
2162:WikiProject Korea articles
2101:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1983:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1937:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1833:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1789:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1730:|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
1705:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
263:Deletion requests May 2012
210:, 19 September 2012, from
135:project's importance scale
112:Template:WikiProject Korea
718:Nishitama District, Tokyo
657:– Per naming convention.
349:Closed, move already made
150:
128:
67:
46:
1634:Fervent anti-Americanism
771:Please do not modify it.
613:Please do not modify it.
589:Please do not modify it.
492:" One other is called "
335:Please do not modify it.
1979:External links modified
1878:http://www.sjshp.or.kr/
1829:External links modified
1701:External links modified
1608:Nominated for Deletion?
1548:and using this page to
866:Yangju highway incident
367:Gangnam District, Seoul
312:02:12, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
194:Gangnam District, Seoul
192:, 20 August 2012, from
304:CommonsNotificationBot
147:
115:Korea-related articles
95:and contribute to the
28:This article is rated
146:
2082:regular verification
1918:regular verification
1770:regular verification
1755:to let others know.
1716:. If necessary, add
1321:not a very good idea
835:US military presence
2072:After February 2018
1908:After February 2018
1760:After February 2018
1751:parameter below to
1069:keeps removing it -
1067:User:YvelinesFrance
839:User:YvelinesFrance
794:User:YvelinesFrance
2126:InternetArchiveBot
2077:InternetArchiveBot
1962:InternetArchiveBot
1913:InternetArchiveBot
1765:InternetArchiveBot
1475:Inevitable request
287:fair use rationale
148:
34:content assessment
2102:
1938:
1822:
1790:
1618:comment added by
708:. Where is used
643:non-admin closure
387:
318:
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267:What should I do?
259:Wikimedia Commons
228:
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82:WikiProject Korea
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1818:
1817:Talk to my owner
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1710:Gangnam District
1630:
773:
681:Associated Press
656:
649:Gangnam District
615:
603:Requested move 2
591:
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371:Gangnam District
337:
278:If the image is
250:
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212:Gangnam District
198:Gangnam District
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2093:
2086:have permission
2076:
2013:
1996:this simple FaQ
1981:
1966:
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1922:have permission
1912:
1853:
1846:this simple FaQ
1831:
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1482:Mercurywoodrose
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714:#Requested move
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466:. Please join
460:Dalseong County
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407:Dalseong County
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131:High-importance
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32:on Knowledge's
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1644:Gangnam Style
1641:
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1620:83.33.156.191
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1180:No refutation
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184:Discussions:
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2096:source check
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1932:source check
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1784:source check
1763:
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1707:
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1684:
1637:
1614:— Preceding
1611:
1512:
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1478:
1389:
1386:
1347:
1208:
1188:
1183:
1179:
1176:
1115:WP:CONSENSUS
1104:
1103:Information
1102:
1049:WP:ABOUTSELF
1040:
1020:
817:Michaela den
789:
784:
770:
767:
729:
725:
724:. Japanese
709:
705:
684:
676:
658:
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622:
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612:
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588:
581:
559:Korea Herald
557:
551:
547:
533:Michaela den
520:
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130:
86:
80:
40:WikiProjects
1638:An editor,
1546:soapboaxing
1245:tendentious
1184:individuals
1071:A1candidate
1053:A1candidate
989:A1candidate
985:This source
958:A1candidate
950:the US Army
905:A1candidate
843:A1candidate
798:A1candidate
594:move review
553:Chosun Ilbo
340:move review
272:Don't panic
30:Start-class
2146:Categories
2133:Report bug
1969:Report bug
1552:. Thanks,
728:, Chinese
716:. 2) See
654:Gangnam-gu
352:Mike Cline
220:discussion
216:Gangnam-gu
202:discussion
97:discussion
2116:this tool
2109:this tool
2016:dead link
1952:this tool
1945:this tool
1856:dead link
1804:this tool
1797:this tool
623:not moved
504:AjaxSmack
441:AjaxSmack
208:Not moved
2122:Cheers.—
1958:Cheers.—
1810:Cheers.—
1720:cbignore
1616:unsigned
1189:personal
753:ChongDae
691:Kauffner
663:ChongDae
567:Kauffner
529:WP:NC-KO
525:WP:NC-KO
490:Dalseong
403:Dalseong
376:Relisted
280:non-free
231:Untitled
2020:tag to
1992:my edit
1860:tag to
1842:my edit
1820::Online
1749:checked
1714:my edit
1672:S. Rich
1656:Mathsci
1584:Mathsci
1554:Mathsci
1517:S. Rich
1507:zorbon
1459:Mathsci
1427:Mathsci
1409:S. Rich
1394:Mathsci
1358:S. Rich
1325:Mathsci
1291:Mathsci
1249:Mathsci
1215:S. Rich
1197:S. Rich
1158:S. Rich
1119:S. Rich
1026:S. Rich
548:Support
456:Namdong
422:XXXX-gu
380:Jenks24
133:on the
2012:Added
1852:Added
1728:nobots
1652:unduly
1285:WP:RSN
1281:WP:DRN
1193:WP:RSN
1105:within
900:WP:POV
870:WP:POV
813:WP:POV
706:Oppose
679:. The
677:Oppose
550:, per
521:Oppose
462:, and
428:(e.g.
218:, see
200:, see
36:scale.
1350:WT:RS
1110:WP:RS
751:. --
734:Sawol
494:Daegu
476:Sawol
464:Daegu
420:from
389:Sawol
190:Moved
106:Korea
88:Korea
59:Korea
1753:true
1692:talk
1676:talk
1660:talk
1624:talk
1588:talk
1572:talk
1558:talk
1536:talk
1521:talk
1501:talk
1486:talk
1463:talk
1448:talk
1431:talk
1413:talk
1398:talk
1378:talk
1362:talk
1354:WT:V
1352:and
1329:talk
1310:talk
1295:talk
1271:talk
1253:talk
1235:talk
1219:talk
1201:talk
1162:talk
1143:talk
1123:talk
1090:talk
1075:talk
1057:talk
1045:here
1030:talk
993:talk
976:talk
962:talk
940:talk
909:talk
878:talk
847:talk
821:talk
802:talk
757:talk
738:talk
695:talk
683:and
667:talk
635:talk
629:. --
571:talk
556:and
537:talk
480:talk
434:here
432:and
430:here
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