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Talk:Generating set of a group

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86: 76: 55: 412:, ... } is not a group. In additive terms, I am saying if you start with 1 and add it to itself a bunch of times you get { 1, 2, 3, ... } or at best { 0, 1, 2, 3, ... } and -1 is not in { 0, 1, 2, 3, ... } and { 0, 1, 2, 3, ... } is not a group. You want to explicitly include an additive inverse like -1 so that you can cancel the additions. In a finite group this does not matter, but in infinite groups it can be a substantial problem. 165: 559:
I thought about "combination" without qualification, but since it has some unrelated technical meanings (like choosing 3 generators out of the set of 4 without regards to order), I thought it was good to be explicit. Generally people like to downplay the operation and any sentence I came up with using "apply" or "operate" had to promote the operation to more than a parenthetical prepositional phrase.
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I changed "product" in the opening paragraph. Certainly product is correct to a mathematician, but certainly calling it a product and then having so many additive examples will confuse readers. I chose "combination" just because it allowed for a relatively short and minor change that sounded fine.
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To be clear, I am assuming you mean "my rationale for using the word product in this particular article is that it will make the opening sentence longer to use apply/combine/etc." and that you do not think this is a good rationale for using "product" in this article. Changing the word is fine by me,
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Whilst possibly strictly true, the reuse of S for the more general case is very confusing; careful reading resolves the issue, but using any other letter would avoid the problem entirely. Alteratively why not avoid S in the opening para and say simply "...a generating set of a group is a subset such
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Unless you have more rationale than this, I respectfully disagree. Integers with addition are an excellent model for groups, precisely because this group is neither a ring nor a field. I suspect that many schools introduce groups by using integers with addition as an example. For me, thinking of a
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group consisting of the integers under addition would fail because of calling the operator "product" instead of "addition", "sum", or just something abstract like "operator", "combine", or "apply". The naturalness and intuitiveness of these models mitigate against the use of "product" as the group
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The integers are not a very good model group, though they are reasonable as a model abelian group. The integers form a group under addition, but not under multiplication. Besides elements like 1/2 being outside the group, there is also the problem of 1/0 not being very well behaved at all. One
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As far as model groups go, there are basically two completely unrelated algebraic structures: abelian groups and groups. Now the definitions look pretty similar, and they are often first taught together, but basically the human pursuit of studying these two concepts are no more related than any
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This article uses the word "product" when referring to the group operator. I don't know much mathematics, but isn't it true that the arithmetic integer product operator (with identity element 1) cannot form a group since the inverse of most elements would not be members of the group (since they
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be written as 1, but 0, for the same reason (that it is incorrect in the most intuitive real-world model). 0 naturally concatenates with x (for example, in some computer programming languages, unlike 1) to yield x; 0+x = x in ordinary arithmetic. It seems clear to me that the word
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The lead paragraph is unnecessarily complicated. While I cannot provide a shorter paragraph, since I am not a mathematician, I believe that, for example, the phrase "and their inverses" can be omitted, since it is unnecessary in the definition of a generating set.
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group as "like" integer addition, a ring as "like" integers with addition and multiplication, and a field as "like" reals with addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division seems very natural. Also, the identity element of a group should
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Your reasons for thinking the integers are a good model group all strike me as very good reasons for it to be a model *abelian group* (surely it should be the first abelian group, followed by finite cyclics, the additive rationals, the
610:(there's no requirement for independence). Every type of algebraic structure has an analogous concept (usually called a generating set - the term "spanning set" for the vector space case is anomalous). -- 532:(say on 3 points). Each of these groups has a natural action, either on vectors, on a geometric shape, or on "points". Group theory is very much concerned with groups acting on other things (consider 501:
other two areas of algebra. In fact the study of rings and the study of abelian groups are intimately related, while the study of groups is not particularly closely related to the study of rings.
142: 234:, the subgroup generated by S, is the smallest subgroup of G containing every element of S, meaning the intersection over all subgroups containing the elements of S; equivalently, < 226:'In abstract algebra, a generating set of a group G is a subset S such that every element of G can be expressed as the product of finitely many elements of S and their inverses. 513:(abelian groups being acted upon by a fixed ring), and I think it is a great way to get introduced to algebra. It's just very, very different than group theory. 639: 132: 178: 108: 634: 544:, the classical origins of group theory). Abelian group theory is very much concerned with abelian groups being acted upon by other things. 440:
operator. When we write "xx" instead of "x+x" (for brevity), I recommend that we think of the operator as "concatenate" instead of "add".
99: 60: 509:, and finally the group of rational numbers whose denominators are square-free). I was initially trained in abelian groups and 369:, ... } (by the definition of a group), adding it explicitly has no effect. Inverses are redundant in this context, no? 35: 239:
is the subgroup of all elements of G that can be expressed as the finite product of elements in S and their inverses.'
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that every element of the group can be expressed as the product.... of elements of that subset and their inverses"
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could change the word product in the opening sentence, but this will just make the sentence longer, not shorter.
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Omitting "and their inverses" leads to several confusions. For instance, an infinite cyclic group generated by {
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but I think it will make that sentence longer. I just didn't see how to satisfy your two requests at once.
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set. Has anyone else noted this similarity or seen it noted? Further discussion would be interesting.
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This concept of a set of generators seems to me to be like the Group theory analogue of an
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More generally, if S is a subset of a group G, then <
306:} is not the set of finite products of elements of { 103:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 433:wouldn't be integers)? Thus, the simple intuitive 428:"Product" used as the name of the group operator 202:This page has archives. Sections older than 8: 516:Good models for a plain old group are the 49: 481:is not appropriate for a group operator. 276:Lead paragraph unnecessarily complicated 51: 21: 212:when more than 4 sections are present. 7: 97:This article is within the scope of 40:It is of interest to the following 14: 640:Mid-priority mathematics articles 206:may be automatically archived by 117:Knowledge:WikiProject Mathematics 606:It's actually the analogue of a 518:group of invertible 2x2 matrices 163: 120:Template:WikiProject Mathematics 84: 74: 53: 22: 520:, groups of rotations (say the 384:I'm afraid this is incorrect. 137:This article has been rated as 1: 620:15:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC) 601:14:32, 22 December 2009 (UTC) 569:07:28, 16 December 2009 (UTC) 554:07:17, 16 December 2009 (UTC) 491:02:20, 16 December 2009 (UTC) 466:19:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC) 450:02:52, 11 December 2009 (UTC) 422:06:25, 16 December 2009 (UTC) 379:01:57, 16 December 2009 (UTC) 348:19:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC) 297:02:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC) 283:One-sentence definition of a 270:19:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC) 111:and see a list of open tasks. 635:C-Class mathematics articles 255:13:17, 8 October 2009 (UTC) 656: 581:algebraically independent 136: 69: 48: 575:Relation to independence 388:is not a member of { 1, 143:project's priority scale 310:}. That set is just { 219:Multiplicities of Esses 100:WikiProject Mathematics 209:Lowercase sigmabot III 30:This article is rated 589:linearly independent 357:is a member of { 1, 123:mathematics articles 260:This is now fixed. 92:Mathematics portal 36:content assessment 522:icosahedral group 247:Julian I Do Stuff 216: 215: 157: 156: 153: 152: 149: 148: 647: 542:invariant theory 322:, ... } or { 1, 223:Opening para's: 211: 195: 167: 159: 125: 124: 121: 118: 115: 94: 89: 88: 78: 71: 70: 65: 57: 50: 33: 27: 26: 18: 655: 654: 650: 649: 648: 646: 645: 644: 625: 624: 577: 530:symmetric group 430: 400:, ... }. { 1, 278: 221: 207: 196: 190: 172: 122: 119: 116: 113: 112: 90: 83: 63: 34:on Knowledge's 31: 12: 11: 5: 653: 651: 643: 642: 637: 627: 626: 623: 622: 576: 573: 572: 571: 556: 526:dihedral group 514: 502: 498: 469: 468: 429: 426: 425: 424: 351: 350: 285:generating set 277: 274: 273: 272: 220: 217: 214: 213: 201: 198: 197: 192: 188: 186: 183: 182: 174: 173: 168: 162: 155: 154: 151: 150: 147: 146: 135: 129: 128: 126: 109:the discussion 96: 95: 79: 67: 66: 58: 46: 45: 39: 28: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 652: 641: 638: 636: 633: 632: 630: 621: 617: 613: 609: 605: 604: 603: 602: 598: 594: 590: 586: 582: 574: 570: 566: 562: 557: 555: 551: 547: 543: 539: 535: 534:Galois theory 531: 527: 523: 519: 515: 512: 508: 507:Prüfer groups 503: 499: 495: 494: 493: 492: 488: 484: 483:David spector 480: 475: 467: 463: 459: 454: 453: 452: 451: 447: 443: 442:David spector 438: 437: 427: 423: 419: 415: 411: 407: 403: 399: 395: 391: 387: 383: 382: 381: 380: 376: 372: 371:David spector 368: 364: 360: 356: 349: 345: 341: 337: 333: 329: 325: 321: 317: 313: 309: 305: 301: 300: 299: 298: 294: 290: 289:David spector 287: 286: 275: 271: 267: 263: 259: 258: 257: 256: 252: 248: 244: 240: 237: 232: 227: 224: 218: 210: 205: 200: 199: 185: 184: 181: 180: 176: 175: 171: 166: 161: 160: 144: 140: 134: 131: 130: 127: 110: 106: 102: 101: 93: 87: 82: 80: 77: 73: 72: 68: 62: 59: 56: 52: 47: 43: 37: 29: 25: 20: 19: 16: 608:spanning set 578: 478: 473: 470: 434: 431: 409: 405: 401: 397: 393: 389: 385: 366: 362: 358: 354: 352: 335: 331: 327: 323: 319: 315: 311: 307: 303: 284: 279: 245: 241: 235: 230: 228: 225: 222: 203: 177: 169: 139:Mid-priority 138: 98: 64:Mid‑priority 42:WikiProjects 15: 561:JackSchmidt 546:JackSchmidt 458:JackSchmidt 414:JackSchmidt 340:JackSchmidt 262:JackSchmidt 114:Mathematics 105:mathematics 61:Mathematics 629:Categories 583:set and a 538:Lie groups 528:), or the 353:But since 593:LokiClock 204:365 days 170:Archives 612:Zundark 511:modules 479:product 141:on the 32:C-class 38:scale. 587:, or 585:basis 524:or a 436:model 238:: --> 233:: --> 616:talk 597:talk 565:talk 550:talk 487:talk 462:talk 446:talk 418:talk 375:talk 344:talk 293:talk 266:talk 251:talk 540:or 536:or 474:not 410:xxx 398:xxx 367:xxx 332:xxx 320:xxx 133:Mid 631:: 618:) 599:) 567:) 552:) 489:) 464:) 448:) 420:) 408:, 406:xx 404:, 396:, 394:xx 392:, 377:) 365:, 363:xx 361:, 346:) 338:. 330:, 328:xx 326:, 318:, 316:xx 314:, 295:) 268:) 253:) 614:( 595:( 563:( 548:( 485:( 460:( 444:( 416:( 402:x 390:x 386:x 373:( 359:x 355:x 342:( 336:x 324:x 312:x 308:x 304:x 291:( 264:( 249:( 236:S 231:S 179:1 145:. 44::

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1
Lowercase sigmabot III
Julian I Do Stuff
talk
13:17, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
JackSchmidt
talk
19:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
One-sentence definition of a generating set
David spector
talk
02:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
JackSchmidt
talk
19:32, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
David spector

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