Talk:Geoff Simpson - Knowledge (XXG)

2259:. And for the record, this information is POV regardless of the date. The impact it will make is more significant now than it will be in 36 hours and thus this debate is more important now than it will be at 8 PM tomorrow. Inserting this material into this article is a ridiculous attempt to undermine Geoff Simpson's credibility. He was never charged and this event is not a major event in his life or his political career. Certain elements are trying to make it seem that it is and thus are coloring Mr. Simpson's history very negatively. This is also a BLP issue because the wording suggests that he is innocent though unable to be prosecuted. Previous versions of this section quoted the prosecutor's assertion that Simpson couldn't be charged based on a lack of evidence, and this was clearly biased since it came from the very person trying to convict Geoff Simpson of domestic violence. No weight was (or is presently) given to Simpson's defense and the wording continues to presume that the event actually happened, where we have 2094:. It's not a BLP issue - the information is thoroughly sourced and in the public record. I've even found the court docket number (Y80100611, King County District Court), although annoyingly enough the King County court website seems to be down. Someone who lives within a less eye-watering toll call could even phone them up and ask, if they were really motivated to check this. If you think the content could be worded more neutrally then I'm open to suggestions, but it looks pretty neutral to me. It's a bald statement of fact. I reject your argument that it may influence the outcome - there's an equal and opposite (and equally invalid) argument to be made that leaving it out is the same thing. 2111:

indicate that you have a staked interest in including this information in this article in the near time. This is a violation of BLP because it presumes the guilt of the subject in an attempt to defame him ahead of an election in the United States. This man is a very minor political figure and it's highly suspect that you would come here and try to insert such dubious (and previously disputed) material into this article. It would cost nothing to wait 45 hours before reinserting this material, but I'm starting to doubt that you'll ever return to this article after the election is over.

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smear Simpson ahead of the election. The arrest has nothing to do with his political career and recieved very little press coverage. It would therefore be giving the incident undue weight to dedicate half the article's space to an allegation that was later debunked. Until a balanced statement can be written that is included within the larger context of a well written (and well sourced) biographical entry, this paragraph has absolutely no place in this article.

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may naturally consider all negative information as an attempt to vilify "their" candidate. But that cannot be our standard for inclusion. So if you say that after the election we can insert the material, you are saying that the material itself is not POV but inserting it now is. But material can never be POV just on some days...either it is POV or it's not. Regards

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Agreeing with Orpheus' argument here. We (as in Knowledge (XXG)) are just reporting what other sources reported. I do not see any bias in the fact that we are repeating what reliable sources said. You read "not enough evidence" == "he is guilty but we cannot prove it", I read "not enough evidence" ==

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influence the outcome. There is no hurry to add this information. This is both a BLP issue and a POV issue and if one or both of you want to seek mediation, go for it. I will continue to remove this information for another 48 hours and then I will probably desist from editing this article altogether.

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Yea right. It clearly violates BLP provisions because it does not tell the full and complete story concerning Simpson's exoneration. This would be part and parcel for compliance with that protocol. Instead, you and other Republican operatives have tried to insert the text into this article to try and

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OK, and now I've reverted your edit. That information you're trying to insert is outdated and POV. Geoff Simpson was exonerated of those charges. You are, of course, choosing not to include that information because it's not helpful to the bias you're trying to insert. Until a neutral statement can be

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Regarding the deal, it's not really appropriate for two editors to strike a bargain and then claim it binds other editors as well. Personally I think the incident should be mentioned in some way, and I don't see any reason to wait until after the election. I'm open to arguments either way in working

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Excuse me? There doesn't appear to be a wide-ranging consensus, and particularly not one that outweighs Knowledge (XXG) policy. I have no interest in whatever election this fellow is running in, nor do I have any interest in US state-level politics in general (I live in Australia). Saying I'm trying

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The prosecutor has an inherent and irrefutable bias in the case, they are the agent who is attempting to take the case to trial. Trying to hide behind the assumed authority of their message is another weak attempt to insert a POV. Simpson is innocent of those charges. Trying to frame that within the

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No. You use soft language when you talk about dropping charges, saying not that Simpson wasn't guilty but including a quote from the prosecutor saying there wasn't enough evidence. Again, this presumes guilt but cites a lack of evidence for trying the case. You also spend a lot of time talking about

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The burden is on you to find documentation to include text that would otherwise violate BLP. Saying you were "reverting a vandal" or "complying with BLP" by reinserting poorly sourced text is a pretty transparent attempt at inserting your POV. Find more sources or don't reinsert the text, that's the

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If you want to reword it, go for it. I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth - I didn't say I have a desire to have the material included rapidly. I just don't see any reason not to put it in. It's verifiable and reliably sourced. It doesn't presume guilt in any way, and I

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should be eligible for inclusion in an article, regardless of the timing. As SoWhy said above, if something is POV now then it'll be POV after the election, and vice versa. If this was a story the mainstream media had refrained from reporting on then I would agree that it shouldn't be on Knowledge

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already have heard of those charges because that is what happens in election campaigns. They come here to read up on the subject and we should provide them everything we know, not remove parts of the article just because some of us think it "biased". Because if someone is biased to a subject, they

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and interfering with a domestic violence report after an altercation with his ex-wife. Simpson immediately declared the charges "unwarranted" and predicted his exoneration. On May 2, 2008, Simpson took a temporary leave from his chairmanship of the House Local Government Committee until his "legal

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Fair enough - I was going for a phrase that would point out that there were no adverse findings against him. Do you have any alternative suggestions? You're a little bit wrong, by the way - under legal systems with a presumption of innocence, having charges dropped is exactly the same legally as

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This is a fringe issue for which there was no conviction and no evidence that any abuse actually occurred. The way its currently worded goes a long way to presuming guilt. You've also stated above your desire to have this materially rapidly included into this article. Your frequent reverts also

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Let me re-establish the fact that I don't care what happens to this article after the election. Orpheus - there is no good reason to add this information into this article 48 hours before Geoff Simpson faces re-election. You can wait until afterwards and clear any concerns about attempting to

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that it did. All the reliable sources so far use the same quote or refer to the same originating report, but none provide any credible evidence that this thing ever happened. I will continue to object to its inclusion in this article over the next day and a half and, now, probably beyond.

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issues are resolved." On May 28, 2008, the prosecutor in the case dropped the charges against Simpson, saying that he "no longer believes there is sufficient evidence to proceed with the charges." Simpson said that he would resume both his re-election bid and his committee chairmanship.

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No, it's soft language because it equivocates on the factual basis of Simpson's innocence. If you want to include this in the article you're going to have to another way to phrase this, other than "he's innocent because the prosecutor couldn't find a way to try the case."

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False. You can't add this: "his innocence legally established." Innocence and dropping the charges are two different things. Dropping the charges means there is no trial. Innocence legally established means that the trial was completed with a non guilty verdict. Also,

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I have expanded this article considerably. Among my expansions includes a table of electoral history--complete with refs and archived URLs, since the search function probably has a volatile web search URL pattern. It is ready for the results of the 2008 election.

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You are more than welcome to suspend your attempts to insert that text into the article until after the election. This would serve both as a sign of good faith and would absolve you of any concerns about trying to influence the outcome of the election.

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As an aside, Cumulus Cloud, has it occurred to you that anyone researching Mr Simpson on Knowledge (XXG) will probably read all of this, and wonder why someone was making such a determined effort to keep it out of the article? It's known as the

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That's awesome. You've been registered for less than a week now and have already gone to work on the pages of several Democratic challengers in various races this fall. As soon as I can figure out whose sockpuppet you are, you'll get blocked.

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and there is absolutely no reason to rush the insertion of this material before the election. Doing so is a pretty transparent attempt to directly influence the outcome of that election and will be immediately reported to the BLP noticeboard.

2355:(XXG). That is most emphatically not the case here. The arrest is public record. The dropping of charges is public record. I cannot see any reason to take the information out at all, regardless of whether an election is forthcoming or not. 1680:

to influence the outcome of an election is verging on incivil and I would ask you to kindly desist. I don't see any reason not to include a well-sourced event in this individual's life, which is a matter of public record.

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There is no "factual basis of Simpson's innocence." The prosecutor didn't say "He is innocent." The prosecutor said" There's not enough evidence to take this to trial." There is a difference, and I have the

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I see that - but I disagree with that consensus. I think the information should go into the article now. I've used your wording from above and added a bit to make the presumption of innocence clear.

2809: 474:) Also, there is balance in the article, since it includes public expressions of innocence by Simpson. If you want to remove the allegation, you will need to establish consensus on the talk page.-- 1838:

issues are resolved." On May 28, 2008, the prosecutor in the case dropped the charges against Simpson. Simpson said that he would resume both his re-election bid and his committee chairmanship.

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I resolutely reject every one of your bad faith accusations against me. But, I will accept your offer to keep the article as-is until after then election and then insert the consensus language I

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I disagree with Cumulus Clouds. The Seattle PI, and Seattle Times covered the story. Voters in the 47th district have a right to know about it. Clouds is trying to help Simpson get re-elected.

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I disagree. But, for the sake of consensus, would you agree to the language above with "saying that he 'no longer believes there is sufficient evidence to proceed with the charges.'" removed?--

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This article has been the subject of some blanking and BLP-related vandalism from a Simpson partisan (who since has been blocked). First of all, inclusion of the allegation does not violate

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No. There is no evidence that an altercation actually took place, so putting that in the opening sentence is both original research and a BLP violation. None of the sources support that.

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in adding it back. However, the fact that he was arrested is a matter of public record with wide news coverage - I can't see how it can be omitted from the article completely.

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his temporary resignation of committee posts to try and give weight to the charges, for which there was none. You can try rewriting it again, but I strongly oppose this draft.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20100326201723/http://vote.wa.gov/Elections/WEI/Results.aspx?ElectionID=26&JurisdictionTypeID=5&JurisdictionID=63452&ViewMode=Results

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who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy.

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First of all, I was forthright in my request for page protection and stated that I was involved in the dispute. The administrator acknowledged that and declined based

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Is it appropriate to delay inclusion of a politician's arrest until after the his election? The arrest has been covered by multiple, reliable, third party sources.

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Therefore, this allegation should be included in the article. And, if the subject is exonerated, that fact should be included too. Now, I am unable to find a

2764: 1356:. Please, stop making threats and contribute to the consensus. You have yet to write a counter-proposal to my proposed language. Do intend to badger me with 1648:

There is no consensus to add this material until after the election. On November 5th, I will not oppose inserting it into this article. Knowledge (XXG) has

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Are you kidding? I reverted BLP violations from a now-blocked vandal, and you accuse me of violating 3RR? It is time for consensus, my friend. Please see

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https://web.archive.org/web/20110727190619/http://www.pseclassified.org/PSE_Blog/Default.aspx?p=school_crosswalk_safety_gets_significant_early_support

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The Seattle Post-Intelligencer, The Seattle Times, and The Daily Herald of Everett, Washington all reported on it, which is enough to satisfy

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If it has a valid cite, put it on. Those who seem most anxious here to keep bad stuff out, are most anxious elsewhere to put bad stuff in.

181:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge (XXG)'s articles about people. All interested editors are invited to 1699:, you and I had a deal--we use the language above and add it after the election. If this continues, I am asking calling for mediation.-- 2171:"there is no evidence to assume he is guilty". People reading the article who know the subject (i.e. potential voters in the election) 387: 258: 310: 190: 177: 135: 76: 2680:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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http://vote.wa.gov/Elections/WEI/Results.aspx?ElectionID=26&JurisdictionTypeID=5&JurisdictionID=63452&ViewMode=Results

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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.

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is asking for help in writing consensus language. It is limited, neutral, nonpartisan, and open, and therefore permitted under

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That's not my "soft language," that is the prosecutor's soft language. He is explaining why he dropped the charges. --

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https://web.archive.org/web/20140104110513/http://www.leg.wa.gov/History/Legislative/Documents/MembersOfLeg2011.pdf

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I'd have to agree with HoboJones, please continue to engage in some good faith discussion and follow consensus. --

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

562:(I have searched google news) that attests to this. Can you find one so we can add it to the article? Cheers! -- 2516: 2425: 2396: 2269: 2116: 2077: 1658: 1450: 1286: 1224: 1108: 1002: 917: 600: 526: 505: 447: 116: 98: 2736: 2646: 2592: 2236: 1888: 718: 2625:

http://www.pseclassified.org/PSE_Blog/Default.aspx?p=school_crosswalk_safety_gets_significant_early_support

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OK, a reasonable position to take. So how do you feel about the language I proposed in the above section?--

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If you continue to forum shop for friendly opinions, I'll report it and we will enter arbitration on this.

2410: 1620:. We have a consensus to add the above suggested consensus text after the election on Tuesday, Nov 4th. -- 427: 2611:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100407183607/http://www.leg.wa.gov/house/representatives/pages/Simpson.aspx

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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On April 27, 2008, Simpson was arrested and charged in King County District Court with fourth-degree

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On April 27, 2008, Simpson was arrested and charged in King County District Court with fourth-degree

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agreed upon, the information cannot be included. Most importantly: this serves as your (referring to

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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https://web.archive.org/web/20080807120423/http://housedemocrats.wa.gov/members/simpson/bio.asp

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by only reporting details that received significant news coverage in the media. This respects

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http://www.vote.wa.gov/Elections/General/Results.aspx?o=de7ee74c-73fb-4de3-bbf3-67ff9893ea94

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I see the arrest story has been the subject of a recent content dispute, so I haven't been

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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being found innocent in court, with the exception that double jeopardy doesn't apply.

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notice for this article. If you revert it again you will be blocked from editing.

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by the admin("protecting this page effectively takes your side"). Furthermore,

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context of the prosecutor's statement on the issue is a blatant BLP violation.

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http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004383294_weblawmaker30m.html

2178: 280: 159: 70: 302:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the 2216:." I also believe that we have consensus on the language above, and that 2647:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2004384750_simpson01m.html

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Depuffed a bit - but this was nearing an embarrassment as a hagiography.

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http://www.leg.wa.gov/History/Legislative/Documents/MembersOfLeg2011.pdf

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Don't you have election results you should be cowering from right now

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to its limit, and I don't think you're negotiating in good faith.--

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is trying to game the system and stall until after the election. --

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RfC: Delay Mention of a Politician's Arrest Until After Election?

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The discussion above was a bit ungainly, so I refactored it, per

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http://www.leg.wa.gov/house/representatives/Pages/simpson.aspx

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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially

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can't see how it's defamatory - it was in the Seattle Times!

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http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/361298_legislator01.html

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I don't care what happens to this article after the election

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Low-importance biography (politics and government) articles

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http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080601/NEWS03/147588895

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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Start-Class biography (politics and government) articles

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http://www.housedemocrats.wa.gov/members/simpson/bio.asp

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For that reason, this article is at increased risk of

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Start-Class United States articles of Low-importance

2697:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 468:Knowledge (XXG):BLP1E#Well-known public figures 2683:This message was posted before February 2018. 2475:in this case. Also, may I remind everyone to 454:, since all facts are supported by rock-solid 2214:do not reinsert this until after the election 2212:" and has reverted with the edit summary of " 1362:accusations of being a "Republican operative" 430:, who has been blocked for that vandalism. -- 8: 2337: 2790:Politics and government work group articles 96: 2583:I have just modified 10 external links on 414:I re-added the material you (referring to 242: 124: 1963: 1961: 1959: 793: 791: 789: 460:Knowledge (XXG):BLP1E#Basic human dignity 422:, which is fully sourced and legit under 343:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject United States 1881:"Official faces domestic-assault charge" 1848: 1846: 711:"Official faces domestic-assault charge" 678: 676: 2350:In my opinion, anything that meets the 1842: 672: 244: 126: 2055: 2044: 2004: 2000: 1989: 1973:The Daily Herald (Everett, Washington) 1945: 1941: 1930: 885: 874: 834: 830: 819: 803:The Daily Herald (Everett, Washington) 775: 771: 760: 226:the politics and government work group 2805:Low-importance United States articles 1910:"State lawmaker charged with assault" 1856:. Seattle Times. 2008. Archived from 740:"State lawmaker charged with assault" 686:. Seattle Times. 2008. Archived from 199:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Biography 7: 296:This article is within the scope of 175:This article is within the scope of 2765:Biography articles of living people 115:It is of interest to the following 2830:WikiProject United States articles 2820:Low-importance Washington articles 2800:Start-Class United States articles 1854:"WA lawmaker charged with assault" 1618:Knowledge (XXG):TALK#Good practice 684:"WA lawmaker charged with assault" 346:Template:WikiProject United States 14: 2587:. 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Archived from 1916:. 2008-04-30. Archived from 1816:21:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 1778:17:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 1709:15:27, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 1690:09:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 1663:09:24, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 1644:06:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC) 1630:20:02, 1 November 2008 (UTC) 1611:00:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC) 1588:04:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1535:03:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1455:02:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1382:02:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1291:01:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1229:02:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1169:02:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1113:01:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1060:01:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 1007:01:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 962:00:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC) 922:23:34, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 805:. 2008-06-01. Archived from 746:. 2008-04-30. Archived from 647:23:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 605:22:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 572:22:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 531:22:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 510:22:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 484:22:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 440:22:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC) 187:contribute to the discussion 2751:10:50, 9 January 2017 (UTC) 2208:has stated that he or she " 36:must be removed immediately 2846: 2714:(last update: 5 June 2024) 2580:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1914:Seattle Post-Intelligencer 744:Seattle Post-Intelligencer 369:project's importance scale 2200:for this page, which was 2198:requested page protection 384: 362: 299:WikiProject United States 268: 222: 147: 123: 304:United States of America 2576:External links modified 2529:Both of you, please be 2237:Barbra Streisand effect 141:Politics and Government 2261:absolutely no evidence 2054:Check date values in: 1050:to back up my claim.-- 884:Check date values in: 548:A 3RR 'Final Warning"? 388:WikiProject Washington 381: 349:United States articles 219: 105:This article is rated 2471:I have to agree with 2257:only on those grounds 380: 218: 178:WikiProject Biography 109:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 69:This page is about a 2695:regular verification 2537:please. 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