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have any reliable sources supporting either, so the inclusion of that list of people to "support the idea that Pell was a controversial person" is original research and in violation of
Knowledge (XXG)'s policies. But I can see that the local consensus here is pretty adamant and I really don't care enough about this matter to take it to
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judgements and cultural legacy. If you use your sandbox you can then use this Talk page to alert interested Users and invite their comments. If your draft wins the approval of interested Users it can be pasted into the article without amendment; if Users make comments and suggestions you can proceed as you wish.
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Because it's really important that we make readers understand that George Pell was a controversial figure, and apparently "Handling of child sexual abuse cases by clergy while archbishop" and "Allegations of child sexual abuse" doesn't get the message across enough, so identifying that the Lord Mayor
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Thanks for your comments. You are at a disadvantage arguing in the abstract. I suggest you use your sandbox or this Talk page to show all interested Users what you have in mind for the lead of this article - write a draft of a revised lead and include the substantial details of accusations, response,
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reference to "summary"), MOS:LEADBIO stipulates that relevant controversies should not be suppressed and that a lead must accurately reflect the content of article in its entirety. Given the content of this article, a neutral, evenly weighted lead section should reduce focus on his career and include
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The points you are trying to make here appear to be based entirely on your intuition and your impression of how
Knowledge (XXG) operates. Knowledge (XXG) has some very important guidelines that are relevant here, but you haven’t mentioned them, so we assume you haven’t taken them into account. If you
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The summary of this archbishops Paige is seriously lacking. He has been accused of child sex abuse and went through a criminal trial. He’s been accused by more than one person. And he’s also been accused of covering up for other priest committing child sex abuse. This is not mentioned at all. I can’t
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I maintain that in order to include public figures who did not attend, we need a reliable source which verifies that there was an expectation that the public figure would attend (i.e. being invited) and a notable reason for their non-attendance (as opposed to, for example, unavailability). We don't
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Attendees and non-attendees at the funeral should only be mentioned if their actions were different from what would normally be expected. For example, Tony Abbott would have been expected by everybody to attend, and he did. There is nothing exceptional there, so mentioning him is rather pointless.
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If this was a list of attendees it would include Mrs Gladys Briggs of
Wollongong. It did not! It is the naming of certain prominent figures who did attend the funeral service, where those figures are notable; and the naming of others who did not attend where one would expect them to have done so,
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I wasn't proposing any unsupported assumptions, only offering some explanations relevant to the present purpose. In the same way, I will now add that I think it very doubtful that any of the opters-out would have referred to the quashed conviction as their reason; the presumption of innocence
1798:, whose findings had been nationally traumatic. But I guess that this way around would be the reverse of the usual way and so could look biased. However, I would shorten "the current Australian Prime Minister" to "the prime minister" and put him after the GG (who would also be decapitalised).
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as edit warring, which it isn't.). The list (no, it does not need to be complete in order to be a list) of attendees to his funeral is trivial. As I said in my edit, the attendance of Prime
Ministers (and for that matter Opposition Leaders) probably does cross the line into being important
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attend his funeral, cited to a single sentence in one source.... I don't like the man either, and I get the motivation to include the prominent people who snubbed his funeral, but we're here to build an encylopedia." Do you disagree? "the current
Australian Prime Minister"? Be reasonable.
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The list might be put the other way around: that almost every one of the most prominent public figures who would have been expected to attend did not, while some other major public figures did. The reason to opt out was presumably Pell's poor showing in relation to the
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The proposal from
Errantios looks good to me. I’m in favour of acknowledging that there was a prominent figure or two who might have been expected to attend, but who did not. This is significant as it supports the idea that Pell was a controversial person.
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lie, it makes me suspicious that someone might be removing edits to include this information and then locking the page to prevent it from being done now. There’s pending edits that mention his child sex abuse but how do we get those confirmed?
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information. Where it gets to Matt
Canavan, Dan Tehan, Don Farrell, Alan Jones, Paul Kelly, and Nicholas Moore is where it really crosses into the "Who cares? Will readers in 10 years care? Probably not" territory. And the list of people who
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policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
1824:" and here I was presuming that it was because of the (quashed) child sex abuse conviction. Which is why Knowledge (XXG) bases its content on verifiable facts reported in reliable sources, not a bit of "here's what I reckon".
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I agree that the list is too long: the set of those who attended could stop after Dutton. I'm not sure whether any of those who did not attend gave a reason, but if they did I expect it was, appropriately, very brief.
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it were to be included (which it shouldn't, based on the currently provided source), it should refer to the actual person who didn't attend (Anthony
Albanese). The same goes for whoever the Governor General was at the
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The same goes for other high profile
Catholics. If someone didn't attend and gave a reason for non-attending that included criticising Pell, that too would be worth a mention. Otherwise, keep the lists to a minimum.
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attend his funeral, cited to a single sentence in one source.... I don't like the man either, and I get the motivation to include the prominent people who snubbed his funeral, but we're here to build an encylopedia.
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Nothing in this discussion really counters my point that the list is arbitrary and non-encyclopaedic. But honestly, who cares? It's not important. Keep the list. Call me an "edit pacifist." Make tea, not war.
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it notable that the
Archbishop Emeritus of Melbourne was absent? Denis Hart and George Pell were classmates, and friends, and close collaborators. Here is a public figure one would expect to be present.
1999:." This does in fact appear to include public figures who did not attend without sources verifying that they were expected to attend and that there was a noteworthy reason for their non-attendance.
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This suggested "expectation" element is original research unless you can find a sources that they were expected to attend but did not. To be clear about "the current Prime Minister" point,
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That's better. I still feel that Tony Abbott hardly deserves a mention. Being a Catholic himself, and a very loud supporter of Pell, it would have been news if the hadn't attended.
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Why is it notable that the Lord Mayor of Sydney didn't attend the funeral? Is it an ex-officio act for her to attend the funerals of previous Catholic Archbishops of Sydney?
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report states at its end that the Lord Mayor of Sydney had attended the funeral of Pell's predecessor. One could OR about many people closely associated with Pell.
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We have seen a little edit warring over the naming of prominent persons who attended Pell’s funeral service in Sydney, and who did not attend.
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The matter deserves a mature discussion on this Talk page. Users who have a view on the matter are encouraged to record their views here.
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remained. I'm happy to name both opters-in and opters-out. The number of citations doesn't matter if they are reliable and the
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thereby making it all the more notable. This underscores the fact that Pell remains a controversial figure, even after death.
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Having read the policies you link to I see no relevancy to the issue of writing an appropriate lead section (assuming @
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both deleted the information in its entirety, called it trivial and described it as a list of attendees.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Thanks for opening this discussion. Just quickly, there was no edit warring (unless you consider
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of Sydney at the time didn't attend his funeral makes it clear how the public felt about him.
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when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
1863:. However, other leading public figures did not attend: Governor-General
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1975:"However, other leading public figures did not attend: Governor-General
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Segaert, Anthony; Baker, Jordan; Mitchell, Georgina (1 February 2023).
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A news item involving George Pell was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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Thank you all. I have made the change, adding a link to Hyde Park.
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There being no further comment, I have made the stop after Dutton.
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wish to make your points in a persuasive manner you should study
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The proposed addition does not include the words you object to.
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Naming prominent persons in relation to Pell’s funeral service
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431:In the news
399:peer review
391:George Pell
368:George Pell
356:George Pell
351:not a forum
275:Labor Party
252:written in
148:free images
31:not a forum
25:George Pell
2231:Categories
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2120:References
1128:Ensoulment
481:While the
364:refactored
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1561:WP:Verify
1046:talk page
1044:(see the
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627:Australia
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560:Australia
529:is rated
425:Main Page
330:citations
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2209:ABC News
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404:archived
328:Include
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2214:14 June
1922:Dolphin
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1571:Dolphin
1557:WP:NPOV
1516:60 days
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537:scale.
271:labour
259:colour
126:Google
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1216:Other
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980:purge
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518:This
273:(but
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130:books
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2104:talk
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1154:see
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1023:see
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813:and
739:help
732:The
629:and
162:FENS
136:news
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