1862:): "Some 22,000 Jews of all ages were packed into nine warehouses in Dalnic, a suburb of Odessa, an operation that continued past nightfall on October 23. The massacre proceeded as follows: 'One by one, the warehouses were riddled with machine gun and rifle fire, doused with gasoline and ignited, except for the last warehouse, which was blown up. The chaos and the horrifying sights that followed cannot be described: wounded people burning alive, women with their hair aflame coming out through the roof or through openings in the burning storehouses in a crazed search for salvation. But the warehouse surrounded on all sides by soldiers, their rifles cocked. They had been ordered not to let a single civilian escape. The horror was so great that it deeply shocked everyone there, soldiers and officers alike'" (page 55 in the linked pdf, the quote is from a report the Romanian chief of staff of the time prepared for the military cabinet; for more gore see also page 56, 57 and the following ones - not for the faint of heart).
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participation in rescuing Jews. Meanwhile, there seems to be a hype, a meme, in some
Russian or Ukrainian sources, mostly forums, blogs and scandal sheets - they will insist on depicting him as one of the Romanian criminals in the administrative apparatus. The creditable Russo-Ukrainian sources on GP (of which there are surprisingly few) will indeed express some negative views of GP, but, as the article currently shows, they don't see him as a criminal, rather as an idiot. (And this for reasons unrelated to the murder of Jews.) Another remarkable phenomenon is that such sources still emphasize, as far as I could tell, that Romanian occupation was rather mild (not least of all due to GP) and corrupt (not least of all due to GP), and even go a far as to rediscover the careers of his Slavic associates, some of whom have been destroyed by an equally idiotic Stalinist regime. So there.
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indeed a separation of historical language: it was made by the
Romanian authorities, and it creates two narratives of World War II, of which the Romanian one can be (and often is) the more questionable. The very point of contention here is the survival of nationalist rhetoric in Constantin's work, and its contextual importance; when fact is that the bare info is supported by some (Russian, Ukrainian) sources who have no reason to support Romanian nationalist discourse in any form, whereas those who display another nationalism (Russian, Ukrainian) are inane in reporting the sheer facts. It could just as well be the other way around, but it isn't.
1993:) - as a reader of the Constantin book, I also consider some of those issues to be problematic, in the sense that Constantin could have written it with more care and a better tone; but it doesn't follow that the book is fringe, scandalous, poisonous or whatever. It is perhaps stupid here and there, but so are many of the other RSes - surely, as one who used so much material from Communist Party reviews in sourcing articles he wrote, Anonimu is aware of that issue, as he too knows, in that case, how to separate with a critical eye between wooden tongue and relevant fact. At that level, there's no difference between Constantin's wooden tongue and
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only by their archival number, probably depositions during his trial). Thus, the book, and consequently the WP article created based on it, are pretty much Pantea's declarations on his own role in the events. And boy, he does have a good opinion of himself! In one quote he proudly talks about his "superhuman efforts" (the quotes, sometimes extending over several pages, are full of similar comments underlining the positive role he supposedly had... they read more like a cover letter for a governmental post). The reliability of Pantea's description of the events comes up when he discusses the
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1731:, and after a quick scan of the article I became seriously disappointed (the disappointment was even greater considering the high quality of most of your recent articles). Would you prefer me to present my objections directly on the DYK page, or you would like to put the request on hold and start the discussion on the article's talk page? The main problems are the low overall quality of the basically only source of the article and what I consider to be the misrepresentation of the WW2 events (including the extraordinary claim in your hook).
1941:), put out by the Wiesel Institute and the Jewish Federation, and through it Israeli historian Jean Ancel. On p.94-95, they argue (and this probably accounts for the discrepancy between GP's account and the Wiesel Report) that GP didn't know how many people he saved, but that he indeed saved some from those in the Jewish convoy. The rest were indeed killed - Ancel says 30,000 in all. Come to think of it, I'll add this source in the article; I thought it largely redundant the first time I checked it, but now it seems quite important.
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clearly has some trouble in so doing, and both he and Pântea tend to credit some urban legends about how
Antonescu didn't realize the scale of what he had ordered etc. - but the fact remains that the book is quite explicit on the issue of crimes having been committed. That is the minimal test case, the border between what's indecent and what's acceptable; the rest is more or less subjective.
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his mandate. The few reliable sources listed are usually only used for marginal notes (such as Boris Marian's book only being used gor a footnote explaining
Karaite Jews don't acknowledge the Talmud). Not to mention that the bibliography is artificially inflated by listing separately articles and journal or newspapers in which those articles were published.
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point of view and supported the union with
Romania. The sources for Constantin's bold affirmations: a praise book about Costin (edited by his widow and his son, with a foreword by Chirtoaca), and none for Chirtoaca. Nevertheless this dubious claims is integrated in the article as a widely acknowledged fact, with only minor aesthetic modifications.
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appalled by the way
Romanians disposed of the Jews), and that he officially protested against the orders of the Romanian dictator. Some Jews probably escaped being burned alive on October 23 because of Pantea's protests, however the great majority of Odessan Jews (over 30,000) were soon to be deported from the city and exterminated at
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2061:, I invite you to my talk page or to the talk pages of the articles you consider problematic). I also find strange the separation of opinions about Pantea along ethnic/language lines, and the implication that some people are expected to take a certain position towards Pantea based on their ethnicity/language.
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or web magazines so obscure that they would be dismissed in any WP article. Other sources include a propaganda booklet published by the
Romanian occupation force boasting the heaven on earth the war created in Odessa, and some two books published by the head of the Bessarabian political police during
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Indeed, German participation wasn't mentioned by other sources. But the description of the events is faithful: it is not the goal of this article to retell the entire story of the massacre, just the bit that saw GP's involvement. That much is verified through
Deletant, and other sources that mention
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And let me add this: I am yet to a single quotable source illustrating in some way
Anonimu's take on Pântea's WWII activities. Some will not mention the Massacre at all, some will only mention his protest to Antonescu (with or without discussing its problematic omissions), some will openly state his
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sources. Constantin's book, for all its textual problems, covers his life in significant detail, and backs the info missing in other sources with quotes (and facsimiles) from primary sources. This is what research is supposed to be doing, regardless of the spin that is added here and there. And even
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There is the matter of
Anonimu's allegations about the one source which still predominates, and which is not in fact sub-standard by our RS requirements (as I have already shown). The parts about its bias are irrelevant, as are those about its use of primary sources of whatever nature (Anonimu seems
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I still find Pantea's description in the DYK hook as a rescuer of Jews unfair. His opposition to Antonescu's orders can be noted, however, crediting him with saving Jews without further comments about how most of those "rescued" Jews were deported and ultimately killed elsewhere in Transnistria, is
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I welcome your edits to the WWII sections, as the addition of the new sources successfully toned down most of the apologetic discourse in those section. I note however that some of the elements I noted in my first comment still survive (the supposed participation of the German Army in the massacre,
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the source is used (which again, is not actually a policy issue): it is used for all relevant aspects, as I have used all other sources in this and other places. It is indeed the only source on anything after 1944, but that's because GP, who is rather obscure in most contexts, is not much discussed
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Your Chirtoacă etc. comments - I just don't find them at all relevant. I cited Druc's opinion as an opinion, and clearly indicated that this legacy issue refers to the dispute between Romanian nationalism (with GP as a hero) and Moldovenism (without). Unless you imply that it's a positive or needed
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cited in the text as far as I can see; the detestable books that Anonimu mentions are of course quotable by a source, if that source has a critical eye, as presumed by the editorial oversight - otherwise, we would be assuming that no author of books on Nazi Germany should be providing references to
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Now that we've established that the book's sourcing sucks, let's see the content. I've only read the parts about World War II, so I'll only comment about those sections. Most of the info presented is verbatim quotes from Pantea (from reports, the aforementioned propaganda book, and other identified
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you can and have used such sources properly, as have I in similar cases where the source contains, for instance, Marxist verbiage. Except for momentary unilateralism and the lack of inline citations, the articles I referred to are not problematic at all.) It is not a separation of ethnicity, it is
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d) rephrased some parts of the text about which Anonimu made acceptable claims, and found detail to clarify further what was a blur - including, for instance, what sources say about what shouldn't be taken at face value in GP's claim; that much is intuitive, but stating it more clearly was perhaps
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Pântea's beliefs about himself are indeed laughable, in this and other contexts, but his claim of having saved at least some Jews is backed, word by word, by Dennis Deletant - a most competent and most neutral source. Him standing apart from the Romanian satraps, on various issues, is confirmed by
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I will begin by saying that Constantin is far from a perfect source, but he doesn't appear to be as bad as Anonimu implies. For one, the man has academic credentials, even if these are not the most impeccable, and even if I personally find him quite biased on various issues. The book has editorial
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And a final note, minor compared to the abominations presented above. Constantin's partisan point of view is further demonstrated by his presentation of Nicolae Costin and Dorin Chirtoaca as modern continuators of the oeuvre of Pantea. Why are they special? They both adopted a Romanian nationalist
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Feel free to propose an alt hook there, and may the best option win. I'm not married to the hook, but I do not that sources other than Constantin also verify that statement. There were enough Jews left in Odessa for the 1942 deportation, and presumably not all of them moved in from elsewhere (and
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About the extraordinary claim that Pantea "rescued Odessan Jews targeted by Romanian troops during the 1941 Massacre". This is a gross overstatement. The sources presented above by Dahn only say that Pantea disagreed with the massacres (as any sane man would have done; even the German troops were
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Let's use the article talk page, if we must. To begin with, I'm not particularly pleased with the source, but it does have credentials and it does clearly condemn the Antonescu murders - meaning that it is not out of the pale. But do note that the hook is also supported by Deletant. You will also
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Thus, the article not only takes Pantea's view at its face value, presenting a ridiculously low figure for the lower estimate, but also reduces the role of the Romanian army (by implicating the German army, which did not directly participate in the events), and presents the systematic killing of
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That said, the book is quite thinly researched in some areas, and poorly written all in all. But let's note that Constantin is clearly set apart from the most problematic Romanian historians by the fact that he clearly acknowledges the massacres and the murders committed during deportations. He
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as wikipedia understands it, quoted from the very policy linked through the tag, is the following: "Isolated studies are usually considered tentative and may change in the light of further academic research. The reliability of a single study depends on the field. Studies relating to complex and
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wikipedia!!! 2 of the 3 articles from the English wikipedia used as sources by Constantin have absolutely no references (and never had)!!! While this would be enough to discredit the source, let's look at other sources ("Lucrări, studii, articole"): op-eds, articles from either notoriously
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What the articles says: "In October 23, he and Macici asked Governor Alexianu to turn back the column of Jews sent on a death march. They registered only partial success: the deportees returned, but only after the Romanian and German troops randomly murdered between 2,000 and 20,000 of
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However, considering the biased account of Pantea's life during WW2, coupled with the bibliography issue I've mentioned in my first message, I have strong doubts about the presentation of Pantea's pre-war life, still sourced practically only from Constantin's
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Considering these, I'd say the "single source" template is the mildest template possible. I hope however that Dahn will work towards finding more reliable sources, and make this one of Knowledge's elite article, as he did with many articles he has worked
1766:. Now, if you find a better quality of source saying otherwise -and let's say, one not out of the PCR archives ;)-, I'm ready to listen. But I'm not putting DYK on hold, as for now your objections seem, for lack of a better word, frivolous.
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As for the tag: I told you, it doesn't address the point, since this article does not promote a medical cure or a novel science. That is what the tag was designed for, as far as I could tell going through the policy it cites.
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The source (Ion Constantin) is of extremely low quality. A quick look at its bibliography it's enough to notice this: 8 wikipedia articles used as sources (search the pfd for "Surse web")! 5 of them from the
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b) shown with those several sources that GP is not the only one to assert his role in saving the Jews (not all of them, that was never implied); and as such shown that Anonimu's claim to the contrary is
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continuity, there's no real issue of POV - in fact, I don't have a POV on the matter, I just want to give as much coverage as sources permit me to GP's posthumous profile.
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I mentioned as much about other sources because there simply doesn't seem to be a decent "alternative" account of GP's career, not even where you'd expect one. (The
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c) expanded on this and other issues relating to GP and the Romanian occupation of Odessa as far as my abilities took me, and almost as far as RSes online go;
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a) added sources (including one from the Wiesel Institute, successor to the Wiesel Commission) that further verify the text and expand on the various issues;
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says (note the commission's high quality report was officially assumed by the Romanian government, and moreover is hosted on the web by the
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e) pointed out that the tag used by Anonimu to question the article is irrelevant not just here, but in any article from this subject area.
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that POV, intellectual honesty dictates, we quote as a relevant opinion on the subject, regardless of whether I or Anonimu approve of it.
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those poor people (many of them burned alive) as just a random action. This should be enough to discredit Pantea as a reliable witness.
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Now, is there anything else, or can I remove the tag? And, is there anybody else out there who has thoughts to share on this subject?
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are preferred when available, so as to provide proper context." Do you honestly think this article qualifies as such?
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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find that it is supported, and/or his account credited, by other impeccable (if slightly confused/ing) sources:
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110818173221/http://istorie.uab.ro/publicatii/colectia_bcss/bcss_1/31_otelita.pdf
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Contrary to Anonimu's claim, one other source attests this: the Liviu Rotman book I mentioned above (namely,
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GP at all do not even mention Macici's change of mind: they simply note that GP himself rescued Jews.
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I think we should concentrate on this article, not on what unrelated sources do (as for the subtle
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I accept that there's little chance to find other published sources about Pantea's post 1948 life.
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What Pantea says: Romania's dictator wanted to kill 20,000 Jews, but Pantea intervened and
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explicitly rejected by Iepan, as well as the unfaithful description of the events).
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presumably not all of them saved by GP, of course). But I digress.
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931:Knowledge:WikiProject Moldova
925:and see a list of open tasks.
771:Military biography task force
503:and see a list of open tasks.
422:This article is supported by
398:This article is supported by
42:Put new text under old text.
2467:WikiProject Ukraine articles
2367:B-Class World War I articles
2253:11:27, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
2118:21:54, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
2071:19:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
2035:17:46, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
1959:22:11, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
1906:19:58, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
1829:nationalist newspapers like
1818:09:03, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
1776:00:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
1741:00:01, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
1672:Template:WikiProject Ukraine
1504:Knowledge:WikiProject Russia
1036:Template:WikiProject Romania
934:Template:WikiProject Moldova
614:Military history WikiProject
362:contribute to the discussion
2452:WikiProject Russia articles
2317:C-Class Journalism articles
1804:, textbooks, and scholarly
1507:Template:WikiProject Russia
1375:Commons:WikiProject Romania
209:column on 1 December 2011 (
50:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
2483:
2272:B-Class biography articles
2216:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2132:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1695:project's importance scale
1530:project's importance scale
1055:project's importance scale
953:project's importance scale
679:Referencing and citation:
545:project's importance scale
1792:abstruse fields, such as
1789:the "single source" issue
1688:
1621:
1585:
1565:
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1523:
1481:dedicated to coverage of
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1341:WLM Romania external site
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80:Be welcoming to newcomers
2457:B-Class Ukraine articles
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2387:B-Class Moldova articles
1357:needing expert attention
1309:* Add more reference to
199:appeared on Knowledge's
2417:B-Class Russia articles
2128:External links modified
1494:, or contribute to the
1204:" (Bessarabian part of
1148:or create a missing one
852:World War II task force
745:Associated task forces:
690:Coverage and accuracy:
316:Politics and Government
1966:As we stand, I have:
1582:
1562:
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1379:Romania related images
1196:Normalize the use of "
847:
836:World War I task force
831:
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723:Supporting materials:
651:
492:WikiProject Journalism
418:
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276:This article is rated
257:
75:avoid personal attacks
1581:
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1381:on Commons. See also
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353:WikiProject Biography
255:
100:Neutral point of view
2197:regular verification
1208:) all over Knowledge
585:Russian & Soviet
105:No original research
2187:After February 2018
1652:WikiProject Ukraine
1384:media-related tasks
1354:Check the articles
1202:Northern Bessarabia
1012:WikiProject Romania
914:WikiProject Moldova
712:Grammar and style:
665:for B-class status:
515:Journalism articles
229:in 1918, protected
2241:InternetArchiveBot
2192:InternetArchiveBot
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1496:project discussion
1474:WikiProject Russia
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1136:History of Romania
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148:free images
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126:Google
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