Talk:Gjon Kastrioti/Archive 2

2819:. Above mentioned "statistics", are irrelevant and ambivalent. The 2 or 3 persons around George Castrioti-Skanderbeg (including his father, but interestingly not his mother) are crucial for the Albanian national myth, and their forms of names very much implicated in the politics of various powers, with more recent the involvement of USA in the former Yugoslavia affairs in 1990's. Most english texts after 90's are politically tainted, especially those written by Albanian authors (like E.Leka, Prifti, Bislimi etc). John became "Gjon", and George became "Gjergj", because some american think tanks wanted so. The 21st century WP has no reason to get involved in the politics of the '90s, which only deepen the divides in that unfortunate area. It is safer to get informed by mainstream texts of the past, such as Encyclopedia Britanica: Printed edition, 1959, vol. 20, p. 726, article " 2687:] (using the 2005 finish year as done above instead of the 2008 is misleading, as 2005 was a very specific spike of the John variants that quickly dropped). We lack up to 2018 but in the last few years recorded the trend was in favor of hte "Gjon" variants. As pointed out by TU-nor, Google Scholar filtering out Wiki mirrors and only for English text shows a clear majority for "Gjon Kastrioti" with . Lastly, "neologism" argument -- this is simply false, it is the name the man has had in the Albanian language continuously (with sound changes occurring just as occurred for all other words and in all languages, leading to the modern form), along with his son Gjergj Kastrioti (Skanderbeg), and other Albanian feudal lords from the period such as Leke Dukagjini, Koja Zaharia, Gjin Bua Shpata et cetera who are referenced in Albanian folklore. 3207: 3350:, but may I aske why you include sources since BoT(Beginning of Time) and not the latest literature? cant really understand it. It seems that is not taking into consideration the advances in reseach/science being achieved. Just imagine some dif. questions: If we were to determine whether moon is made out of cheese, would we examine medieval literature as well and compare it with more modern claims and find out who has moe hits? Or if we were to determine whether homosexuality is a disease, should we count google hits from BoT and compare them with modern literature? Your method of research seems biased in favor of outdated material. Moreover, you have claimed that " 1120:Ιn the english WP, we don't have to look for the "authentic" name for the title, but the one used in english. The really authentic name is either in greek (Ιβάνης/Ιωάννης Καστριώτης, as written in his contemporary chronographers) or latin, or possibly slavonic. There are no primary sources in albanian about him. An albanian form of name that appeared in the 20th c. can be in the first lines of the LEAD, not in the title. Oliver Schmitt calls him with various forms of the name (including Ivan and Gjon), trying to be politically "unbiased" (he doesn't want to be unwanted in Albania, I suppose). Therefore he cannot be helpful on that. -- 3682:. A central argument of the moveistsis that the Albanian name is inauthentic and a 'neologism' or even more bizarrely, that it is "translated" from the "correct" Slavic name Jovan. They have no reliable sources backing this up and there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. The reason for arguing such a thing is the belief, also unsupported that Gjon Kastrioti was a Slav, because Albanians "didn't exist". These tendencies are all citable given the edit histories of a certain user. The only mystery to me is what a respectible editor like you are doing associating with this campaign. 2437:: I, too, support the move to "John Castriot", as does now even the original proposer. But the initial proposal was a move to "Ivan Kastriota", something even the proposer does not support now. People who are summoned her by the RM, may vote "oppose" to "Ivan" without giving their view on "John", making it more difficult to close the RM. My concern is: There is a possibility that the RM may be closed with "not moved" (to "Ivan Kastriot(a)") even if there may be an unexpressed consensus for moving to "John Castriot(a)". -- 3559:, please accept my sincere apologies. I had no intention to offend you and I am really sorry you feel that way. It 's clear that you didn't start counting since the BoT. It is clear that you did a fine and time-consuming job presenting google hits. Your argumentation is really sound. It is just a minor objection I really have, conserning the time window you are using. The bias is located in appreciating that the 1950's hits are as significant as the 2010's hits. It 's not a big deal though. Cheers. 1806:." "Giovanni" is not english, but is neutral and historically correct, as it was used at G.Castrioti's time in official correspondence. It could possibly used here as a safe alternative, with a note that is used by Encyclop. Britanica. I want also to remind that the Albanian and other versions of the name will not vanish from the article. It will be stated in the first line that the name is written such and such in various languages and sources.-- 31: 631:, there is no consensus to your proposal on an issue where it has been discussed before at length and the article on that matter has been stable for years. Not only that you started a thread about a page move (on a article that has attracted controversies in the past) without initiating the proper process. Nonetheless the way you have gone about things displays sophistication, so once again i ask are you a returning editor or a new one? Best. 3246: 3262: 2566: 2748:) reached by translation of non-Albanian name. Gjon has never been used for poor John all of his life and about 500 years after he died. There are some Albanians who indeed gave to their children this neologism names (Gjon, Gjergj, Gjin, Leke...). People who really received name Gjon were referred in most English, Serbian or Turkish language sources as Gjons. Not Johns, Jovans or Yuvans. 3270: 2268: 3254: 3223: 3215: 2983:- @Skylax30, you mentioned a lot of things in your post, like English sources being "politically tainted" due to politics in the 1990s in particular by Albanian authors, or American think tanks in making John into Gjon. My question to you is what evidence is there that what you say is factual? Because when one reads what you wrote it, a lot of it comes off as 3231: 1411: 3852: 1996: 2655: 3906:. The "patrol" deleted this info and both sources, commending only on the one that is "outdated". Does anyone else see the Albanian national POV here? And one more question: If we accept a 1899 source claiming (if it will be veryfied) that he was Albanian, why not some more sources of the same period claiming that he was Serbian? Thanks.-- 1649:. This is an entirely nonsensical request. The current pair of editors voting in support are advised to find more productive ways to edit wikipedia. And let's be real, if this goes through it will only be a year before unproductive editing on the Albanian side will start talking about "Marko Bocari" and etc. The vast majority of sources 1420: 3085:

over who can claim that legacy'. Anyway, on Greek Knowledge you tried this with the Greek language version of the article ? Curious as you have been sanctioned much over there. So i ask again what is your evidence for making allegations against a large swath of academia? You either have evidence or its just conjecture on your part.

2793:, please refrain from making unfounded claims and allegations about scholar Robert Elsie being "paid" or other unless you have evidence. One other thing, the claim that the names "Gjon, Gjergj, Gjin, Leke" in Albanian are neologisms is false (for example see journal article "The Christian Saints in the (Micro)toponymy of Albania" 2261: 3354:" which is true, but not both sides contribute the equal amount of non reliable sources, as it make sense that the bigger pool can provide more no reliable sources. I wouldn't want to diminish your valuable contribution to the ongoing debate, it 's just that I think there are some serious drawbacks in your conclusions. 1744: 4055: 4052: 3177: 3161: 3137: 3129: 3121: 850:. It takes time, but the benefits are large: More people would participate (for example those of us who are shunning the current discussion because of the heated tone). Also, it would be possible to close the discussion with a formal consensus, thus avoiding more disruptive debates at least for a while. 3145: 3068:

and eleswhere. I am talking to users who know and mind. If however, the discussion will be reduced to counting "hits" in the google, I am not going to waste my time fighting against the "Allies". In the Greek WP, a single administrator imposed the name Γκιον in the title (only in the title), which is

2199:

Knowledge does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the criteria

2066:

matter because since the fall of communism, most studies have become more integrated across former political boundaries, leading to (yes) more usage of the native Albanian names. Now, to be fair, in Medieval Albanian, which often used "C" instead of "K" (in those days Albania was very much influenced

1575:

the common name. Your suggestion of moving the page to the anglizised form "John" is another matter. Adding together sources for Castriot, Castriota, Castrioti, Kastriot etc., they by far outnumber any version of Gjon. The problem here is that the surname is given in so many different forms. Castriot

700:

Secondly, all of the Kastriot family members starting from that Serbian Branilo and down to Đurađ Kastriot explicitly possessed Slavic names. I would also like to invite everybody to listen carefully to what a renown scholar Olsi Jazexhi himself says about the origin of Skanderbeg. This interview was

3282:

This can, of course, be interpreted in many ways, but my conclusion would be this: "John" has been the clearly dominant form of the name in English language sources at least up to 2000. From then, the picture is more mixed, but it is to early to conclude that "Gjon" has "taken over"; I would wait at

2706:

According to the most interesting Ngram, in the last 20 years, most commonly used name is Gjon Kastrioti. That means that recent research or bibliography, prefers the Gjon version. I think WP should be up to date with the latest literature. If there is a clear difference in modern literature, we can

2017:

This shows "Gjon Kastrioti" has clearly been above "John Castriot" for most of the time since the fall of communism. While the two came close in the first decade of the 2000s, the final trend is Gjon Kastrioti increasing and John Castrioti decreasing, and Gjon Kastrioti has more hits the whole time.

3940:

Well, actually the one source after the "Albanian" claim, in Russian language, doesn't say that he was Albanian. At least not in the quoted phrase. The other, of 1899, i will check. The two users who guard the Albanian national myths in WP are edit warring (and will be reported) and erase the other

3104:

I am uncertain about this one. The common usage in English has obviously been John up to the last part of the 20th century, but usage seems to be changing. I will try some more of my (infamous?) Google searches. This time I will sort out those sources that only uses one of the names and avoid those

2732:

Most of English language sources refer to this person as John and his family as Castriot. All of English language sources until mid 20 century and most recent English language sources specialized in the topics refer to this person as John. That also supports fact num 1, John is not translation from

2419:

and repeated their position presenting valid arguments. This is a discussion. The editor who made initial proposal and other editors are entitled to discuss the proposal and reach consensus, even if the consensus will be different then initial proposal (here, in case of some of three RM proposals).

2080:

over the course of numerous invasions and rebellions that ripped up the country, and the only thing we have now from before the middle of the 2nd millennium is a baptismal formula. Perhaps (hopefully) there are still some left that are waiting to be found in some cellar somewhere. For us, as far as

931:

in its original form from those contemporaneous records of the time, not the Turkicised Yuvan-ili(Jovan), not the Anglicised John(Jovan), not the Latinised Iuanus(Ivan) and neither the Albanised Gjon. Our terminus is therefore only Ivan, and that is it. Those variances are truly irrelevant like the

824:

What I see in this talk page, is a confused mixture of two different discussions combined with lots of personal comments and accusations and spiced with edit warring in the article. The result is completely useless. Could we please take a time-out now and try to be constructive? We need to sort out

374:

name, you are firstly and foremostly contradicting to yourself. If his name was truly that irrelevant, like you say, then why are you involving yourself in this discussion in the first place? Why such stern resistance against the renaming of the article? Why not simply rename it into Ivan Kastriot,

319:

The encyclopedicity of the names is in that a user may find a form of the name in various texts, other than albanian made. No serious source and archival source mentions any "Gjon Kastrioti", and so the door is open for missunderstandings. This is the use of WP. Btw, we should start a discussion on

3975:

edits. Che is recycling Greek POV Savvidis (1991) and Demus from 1968. I know this means a lot to you @Skylax in your editing to prove that everyone was or is "Greek" and 'they just don't know it yet', but get over it. Schmitt did the most in depth analysis to date on Skanderbeg outside any axe to

3757:

whenever and in the case his english name appears and/or becomes popular on Google charts someday. I couldn't mind if world-famous figures who originated from that region and were influential to the world, i.e. the Byzantine emperors Justinian and John, are called by their English names instead of

3740:

I never heard the english name John Castriot. This historical figure is known by its real name, Gjon Kastrioti, and this should be respected here in the Knowledge. It is weird practice to try and anglicise the names of figures like that just because the Google charts show that the english word may

919:

That is one and the same thing. We need to determine the authentic name of our subject in question and not the variances which derive from that name in foreign languages. For example, with Adolf Hitler, we mean a specific historical personality. Not just any Adolf Hitler, Adolfo, Adolphus, Adolph,

3084:

Skylax30, i know about the myth of Skanderbeg and i don't adhere to it (not born or from Albania/Kosovo, neither my parents or grandparents etc). All Balkan nationalisms have myths like 'liberation from Ottoman rule myths' and 'supposed descent from ancient progenitors and stupid and silly fights

2753:

It is important to understand that poor John belongs to group of medieval people who were subjected to process of retrospective Albanian nationalization since late 19th century. This process attributed to them and to their activities Albanian nationalistic characteristics they never had. That way

1062:

Not at all, I do not object to a separate Name section. On the contrary, I welcome it. I was only implying that solving the title of the article should be regarded as of primary importance, whereas adding a separate Name section should be considered as of minor or secondary importance. It appears

291:

It's not about presenting all of the names in a separate section to the readership, but providing the correct one instead! Throwing in all of the forms of this name recorded in different languages doesn't clarify anything. On the contrary, it is causing confusion instead. This article should be

3994:

If he was an "obviously albanian figure", add the relevant sources. For the moment I see none. If for Schmitt was "obviously Albanian", add it in the footnotes. At the same time, all views must be present in the article. Tag "cn" is not supposed to be erased. Personal attacks and threats noted.

3307:

As I said in the previous discussion, not all search hits count. For example, this Albanian author(ess) (with the Greek surname "Papathimiu", i.e. "the son/daughter of Father (Eu)Thymios") is openly showing that she writes from the "our-national-hero" POV, in an obscure Catalan site/magazine of

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Die Osmanen bekundeten ohnehin keine Berührungsängste mit den vorosmanischen Zuständen; sie benannten die meisten Landschaften nach ihren früheren Herren, das Balšaland (Balşa-ili) zwischen dem späteren Ort Kavaja und der Shkumbinmündung, Jonima-Land (nördlich des heutigen Peqin), das Land des

3495:

a neologism, it is the authentic native Albanian name for the man. We all seem to agree that the "John" variants dominate earlier works while the recent trend has been to favor "Gjon". This matches the wider trend of increased preference for native terms in academia, and the reconciliation of

2489:

There were multiple discussions about this issues before, but the issue remained unresolved. My opinion is that this issue will remain unresolved. Therefore I propose to close this discussion without consensus. Those who really want to resolve the above mentioned issues should initiate wider

1045:

Whatever name the article ends up with, I hope you will not disagree that other name forms have to be mentioned in the article. Currently they are mentioned in a note, but some editors want it to be presented in a "Name" section, as is done in many other articles. That is another discussion,

976:

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policy. There is no indication that the proposed names are the commonly used names in English-language reliable sources, and the editor has not even tried to support the claim with links to any sources. In the discussion they link to, I find sources in German, French and Slavic, but not in

3650:

Emri Gjon ishte aq tepër i përhapur në mbarë trevat shqiptare sa atë e morën me vete dhe banorët e viseve të jugut, të cilët gjatë shek. XIV dhe XV mërguan në viset e Greqisë kontinentale dhe ishullore. Emrin Gjon e mbanin deri vonë, ndoshta edhe sot, arvanitët si për shembull në ishullin

2062:"Even in the most recent"? Not so-- look at 2007 and 2008-- "Gjon Kastrioti" clearly outnumbers both the "John Castriot" and "John Castriota" terms combined. Yes I recognize this is nitpicking, but still. I would be very interested to see what hte stats are for the last 10 years. It 3788:

It seems to me that he was 'John Castriot' until about 1951 when he became known as Gjon Kastrioti. The two names are now more or less equally used. But Gjon Kastrioti is strongly considered to correct by Albanians, and John Castriot considered to be more historical by others. —

2254: 2123: 3458:

Why should we exclude made-in-Albania articles? Should we exclude made-in-Grece nationalistic articles as well? I am not following you (compare our contributions) but it 's ok to feel good even if there is nothing there. Ah! And I don't advertise anything. I am pro-knowledge.

4056:

https://books.google.com/books?id=bsyCCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=john+kastrioti+kosovo+battle&source=bl&ots=hfx-6llyfV&sig=ACfU3U0uWl-GpxUFmBRNg1HgrqIw9rC7PQ&hl=com&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=john%20kastrioti%20kosovo%20battle&f=false

4053:

https://books.google.com/books?id=NYsMAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA93&lpg=PA93&dq=john+kastrioti+kosovo+battle&source=bl&ots=yfXxuDaWNi&sig=ACfU3U0Pdi-kx1lR1AzM3oMxfuTtXleHug&hl=com&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=john%20kastrioti%20kosovo%20battle&f=false

3705:

The above comments convinced me that the using the English form of his name is the most neutral approach and it can be verified. Furthermore, this approach is in line with our practice in connection with hundreds or thousands of other medieval proper names, including most

2707:

discard the historic names more easily. Gjon has been in use for over 70 years, so it is difficult to defend the neologic argument. I have to say that there is increasing use of John Castriota. We might have the same discussion in 10 years or so, when new data emerge.

487:(single purpose account) created on 7 May 2018 posting only on this page. The thread "Ivan Kastriota's name" is sophisticated for a newbie who has made only 3 whole edits. On the issue of name, a note in the article based on sources exists for various forms since 2011 890:

my apologies, you are right, and I have perhaps been part of the problem here. I tried to delete my original post but when that was reverted I shouldn't have let myself go a bit. Wiki can be frustrating for reasons that are not the topic of this page. My bad. ----

2383:

3) Since you no longer support your own original proposal, I suggest that you withdraw this RM and starts a new one with your new suggestions. As it stands now, people are invited to discuss a proposal that no one supports, which is kind of wasting people's time.

2081:

I've observed, the archaic English form of "John Castriot" occurs in older sources and more broad sources covering European history, Medieval/Renaissance history et cetera, while indepth works on this part of Albanian history will tend to use the Albanian form.--

2518:

Giovanni Musacchi (as he signed). Btw, the latter can be confused with the Greek dish Musaka. The above discussion is not wasted. Some arguments can be copy-pasted to the new one. In the meanwhile, Τζερόνυμο can advertise the case to the rest of Eastern

467:. There is a note in the article, and no other similar stuff should ba added. If someone edits only in the way you are editing, causing pointless and boring discussions such as that on the Souliotes, reminding them about the rules is very constructive. 2861:

Seems strange to discard the bibliophraphy of the 90's, just to support the books of the 50's. As if going back in time, will let us find the "pure" or the "true" words or meanings. More, Britanica is a tetriary source, a very reliable one, but is not

1510:

Addition: The Google Books searches are not limited to English language books. Many books in the Ivan and Gjon searches are in other languages, especially in the Ivan search. That would actually be another argument for moving the page to John!

217:

Pavlo-Kurtik, des Kondo-Miho und des Bogdan Ripe (alles sonst unbekannte Kleinhenen mit typisch orthodoxen Namen) um den Fluss Shkumbin, Ashtin-ili um Permeti, Zenebish-ili um Gjirokastra, im Norden schließlich auch Jovans Land (Yuvan-ili,

1389: 3892:

The LEAD says that John Kastrioti was "Albanian", on two sources. The one is dated 1978 and the other 1899 (!). No page is indicated on the later. Today I added two other sources, claiming that the man was Greek. The one is dated 2017

2076:, this is the issue with Albanian history. Albanians used to have plenty of texts (there are references to their existence, such as "the Latins and the Albanians both write their own languages in Roman script" et cetera) but they were 3741:

call historical figures by their english name (if it exists). No matter which name is popular on Google charts, a person's name should stay true. I really can't stand the idea that either modern figures like the Italian president

2684:

as was previously discussed, the argument that the "John" variants are more predominant than the "Gjon" variants is not conclusive as it has been volatile throughout history and doesn't seem to be the case as per Google NGram

1714:

By the first half of the 9th/15th century the Kastriota family, with their centre at Matia, had supplanted the Bashas as the most influential power of Northern Albania. They had acknowledged Ottoman suzerainty since 787/1385;

3956:

I am so deeply sorry that an obviously Albanian historical figure being called Albanian has upset you so deeply. Perhaps you would like to talk about your feelings. If you would like to do so, a safe space might be found

3585:

At least one of these current sources using "John Castriot" is in fact not current, but a reprint. This one, with only one mention, is a reprint of classical English literature which refers to him as the "king of Epirus"

3831:

A user with no contributions to this page recently moved it to "John of Castriot", falsely claiming this is how he is referred to in English. This is demonstrably not only false, but patently absurd. See Google Scholar:

2479:

while many medieval people who lived in Albaina and whose names in original documents were Ivan or Jovan, whose name was translated to Albanian as neologism Gjon in post-1908 period sources. The most notable of them is

2773:- As per all reasons opposing the move as outlined in the previous move discussion. Also the name Gjon for this person is not a neologism in the Albanian language. The earliest Albanian writer to mention him as Gjon is 140:

Ce n'est pas M. Iorga seul qui „attribue“ (ibid) le nom d'„Ivan“ au père de Scanderbeg, ce sont également les documents vénitiens et ragusains (Iuanus; voy un exemple chez M. Gegaj même, p. 40, note 2), aussi bien que

1335:

guidelines. They are a fruit of the 19th and 20th-century romanticist writings by the Albanian National Awakening authors and are therefore not grounded in science nor the testified historical documentation (See past

1398: 2785:, which in Latin is Iohannis" (Blancus, Georgius Castriotus, 73: "Gion (id est Iohannis Latine) Castrati nuncupatus". This is outlined on the main article page on Gjon Kastrioti in the note section on his name. To 2046:... which show that "John" titles still outnumber "Gjon" even in the most recent sources. I'm not sure why, with a subject who flourished nearly 600 years ago, we should limit ourselves to two decades of sources. 1474: 4040: 3371:: I am sorry, but I do not understand your comments. My search start in 1950, and I think BoT was before that. My search ends at present, and I do not know how to search for future books and scientific papers. -- 1741: 197:

4. Oliver Jens Schmitt states that when the Ottomans arrived in Albania, that they gave names to the local landscapes after their former masters, which in Ivan Kastriota's case is Yuvan-ili, after his first name

1827:

Skanderbeg, byname of George Kastrioti, or Castriota, Albanian Gjergj Kastrioti, (born 1405, northern Albania—died Jan. 17, 1468, Lezhë, Albania), national hero of the Albanians. A son of John (Gjon) Kastrioti

3895:

Jayoung Che, "The Socio-political Meanings of the Conflict between the Muslims and the Christians around the Western Balkan in the 15th Century", Athens Journal of History, Vol. 3, Issue 4, October 2017, p.

1197:, etc., but things can get quickly vexed when you will need to convert the names of the rest of the Kastriot(a) family. There is at least a dozen of other articles which are related and need to be renamed. 832:. There was a RM some years ago about moving it to "John Castriot". The result was "no consensus", and the page was not moved. Any new attempt to move the page will have to go through the same procedure. 3320:. If, say, 1.000 Albanians of various disciplines decide to promote "Gjon", they can send 3000 articles on geography, chemistry, traditional medicin etc, to magazines from Chile to Uzbekistan, sprinkling 515:

Personal interpretations of "concensus" are welcome, but we don't have to aggree on them. If a line has been untouched for years, this doesn't necessarily mean concensus. Articles have to be improved.--

272:) of cited text which presents more names used in sources and literature to refer to the subject in question if nobody presents valid arguments against it within reasonable period of time, say a week.-- 2380:

claimed that the search excludes the "Ivan" proposal, and that the search opens for discussion about moving "Gjon" to "John". I have, based on this, even changed my !vote to support a move to "John".

3496:

historians from across the Iron Curtain after the fall of communism in Albania. It makes little sense to change our page name when the trend in the literature points the other way. I do agree with

3388:

let me rephrase. I am not suggesting to look into a crystal ball, I am just saying that we should take into consideration considerations contemporary literature, that is the last 10 or 20 years.

2234:

hit counts are invalid and should be disregarded, as they are not a measurement for anything, especially not for the number of reliable sources counts. He pretends that I have misunderstood the

1549:. Most of the english titles found in scholar.google about "Gjon" are authored by Albanians (like Pahumi etc), others are exact copies of WP, and therefore no "scholar" at all, like that in the 1099:, you still haven't answered a question i posed to you. Are you a new editor or a returning one as your edit history reveals all your edits are geared toward just this one article (typical of a 2835:: "Skanderbeg, byname of George Kastrioti, or Castriota, Albanian Gjergj Kastrioti, (born 1405, northern Albania—died Jan. 17, 1468, Lezhë, Albania), national hero of the Albanians. A son of 3018: 1161:

Oliver J. Schmitt refers to him as Ivan Kastriota. Since you have evidently read the book, and since someone needs to cut the Gordian knot, I'd suggest you to turn on page 32 where he draws

3064:

Sorry, but I am not going to do a doctoral research on the political use of the Skanderbeg mythology in Albania. There are several articles on that, and some can be found as references in

905:

We need to sort out two different discussions: One is the title of the article, the other one is the presentation of the many different names used for the person described in the article.

375:

like it should had been since day one? It is quite obvious that the proper form of his name is very important to this article. The same way as we do not anglicize Adolf Hitler's name into

3607:

because the name Gjon is not a "neologism" but a historically widespread Albanian name, even among Arvanite communities. This debate is verging closely to denying Gjon was an Albanian.

2827:, lord of Mat ... married Voisava Tripalda, daughter of a Serbian magnate." "Giovanni" is not proposed here, but is shows that it if has to be other than english, then it is not "Gjon". 2754:

John also became part of several major constutive myths of Albanian nationalism. That is why closing administrator should take very good care when weighting !votes in this discussion.--

997:

two different discussions. A change of an article title in Knowledge is actually a page move, and it requires a consensus for moving. Since the current title is/was decided through a

965:

two different discussions. A change of an article title in Knowledge is actually a page move, and it requires a consensus for moving. Since the current title is/was decided through a

2256:

The lack of the mentioning of these names in sources before 1950 testifies to the fact that they were coined very recently by Albanian authors and, therefore, do not comply with the

2253:

already indicated, the non-existence of Pals, Gjons and Gjergjs is quite symptomatic for the period before 1950, which gives proof to very recent use of these names in literature.

2067:

by Italian and even Norman connections), his name was very possibly written as something akin to "Jon Castrioti" which is ironically closer to "John Castriot". The shift of j: -->

4041:

https://books.google.com/books?id=pgf6GWJxuZgC&pg=PA76&dq=however,+shows+that+he+was+poisoned+albania&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi78MreuvrhAhVphq0KHcREDe0Q6AEIJjAA

1546:(a Greek surname, btw). Even Noli himself, an author respected by Albanians, calls him "John", 37 times in his monumental (for the Albanian ethnic identity) work on Skanderbeg 2175:: If I am not mistaken, in these discussions, arguments count, not votes. Additional "votes" from WikiProjectAlbania do not add credibility to the same recycled arguments.-- 3758:

their real names, because it is obvious that their fame and notability was of global scale, but I do mind when the same practice is extended even to the local notables. --

1851:, who was writing only in Greek, and is mentioned and venerated mostly by Greeks, but nobody demands that english WP calls him "Ioannes". Of course, Albanian WP calls him 2334: 1777: 1355: 1214: 1078: 947: 808: 748: 733: 615: 562: 400: 307: 255: 3105:

who mention both names. I will also test out different time spans. As before, there is no guarantee that all the hits are reliable sources, but that goes for both sides.

846:" section, would normally be possible to solve through an ordinary talk page discussion, but seeing the temperature of this discussion, I would strongly advice to use a 1441: 825:

two different discussions: One is the title of the article, the other one is the presentation of the many different names used for the person described in the article.

2839:(Gjon) Kastrioti ...". Even the Albanian historiographer of Skanderbeg, Fan Noli, writting in USA in 1945, mentions "John Castriot" in his work, not one, but 37 times 679:

Actually, the title of the article, per se, is a bias towards the albanian POV, but let it be. Trying to suppress the info about the name in a footnote, is too much.--

3542:

considered the last 10 or 20 years, as you will see if you read my post. Could you now stop your misrepresentation of my comments and keep to the case in question. --

600:

There's plenty of Google Books which support what I wrote above. I'd suggest you to cease with the willful ignorance and start corroborating your false POV instead.

1235:

in your views about "at least a dozen of other articles" on pagemoves. Your edits here are sophisticated. @Xhfgsepfiuh, are you a returning editor or a new editor?

2109: 2100: 337:

How was named Gjon Kastrioti in obscure documents is not relevant. Almost no article on Knowledge has such sections. Furthermore, there is a note on the article.

3310:"The demographic and economic development of Albania during and after the decline of Communist regime (1945-2010)": "The Prince Gjon Kastrioti was the father of 1830:.". In this particular case, I think we should rely more on Encycl.Br. than on any Albanian author who writes in english, or the albanophile site of Mr. Elsie.-- 3564: 3464: 3393: 3359: 2871: 2712: 2211: 1933: 853:

The current consensus is to present the names as a note. Yes, that's right: When the introduction of the note some years ago has been unchallenged since, it

2020:] although admittedly there is one year, apparently 2005 where John Castriot was higher. Of course, we are missing 10 of the most important years here.---- 1280:. Request has been struck, rendering the request void; no consensus. No prejudice towards users in good standing who wish to re-initiate a simpler request. 3538:

My "method of research" has faithfully examined every Scholar hit and Books hit from 1950 till today. Where is the bias? And to your very last comment: I

783:

Apart from that, Nathalie Clayer was part of the Examining Board of the mentioned PhD thesis by Olsi Jazexhi, a scholar of world repute and the author of

3504:

to show that Gjon has "taken" over but they certainly do not in themselves support moving the page, while the other argument ("neologism") is just false.

1630:

which is more appropriate for the english WP and is found in bibliography. No opinion on Family of Kastrioti/Kastriota. It is the same, in my opinion.--

268:- Good point. All relevant names of the subject of this article should be presented to readers. That is why I will restore recent unexplained removal ( 1953:, as per detailed reasons outlined by @TU-nor. Gjergj or George Kastrioti is known by his Ottoman sobriquet Skanderbeg/Scanderbeg then any other name. 857:

defined as a consensus. But consensus can change. Given the temperature here, I see no better way to define the current consensus than to open a RfC.

3203:"John Castriot" OR "John Castrioti" OR "John Castriota" OR "John Kastriot" OR "John Kastrioti" OR "John Kastriota" -"Gjon Kastrioti" -llc -Knowledge 3116:"John Castriot" OR "John Castrioti" OR "John Castriota" OR "John Kastriot" OR "John Kastrioti" OR "John Kastriota" -"Gjon Kastrioti" -llc -Knowledge 3560: 3519: 3460: 3419: 3389: 3368: 3355: 2867: 2866:

that we should follow unquestionably. Secondary sources are better, and in general, contemporary literature is always better and more trustworthy.

2708: 2207: 1929: 1534:. There is no point counting every english text as "source". WP wants reliable sources, which in this case means non-nationalistic. Fore example, 1450: 1483: 3522:: I had not intended to answer you more in detail, but since you continue to misrepresent my claims, I feel I have to. You claimed first that I 2946:

Ivan is not German. It is an attested original form of the name. Either you take this, or you translitterate it to the respective WP language.--

1001:, the only way to do a change is through a new move request. Please note that the article title is usually governed by the Knowledge guideline 969:, the only way to do a change is through a new move request. Please note that the article title is usually governed by the Knowledge guideline 547:

Actually, his edits do signal a general consensus in relation to Ivan Kastriot's name. He is relying on verifiable sources, whilst you don't.

3643: 1709:(b. 808/1405, d. 872/1468), in Western sources Scanderbeg, etc., hero of the Al-banian “resistance” to the Turks in the mid-9th/15th century. 3242:"Gjon Kastrioti" -"John Castriot" -"John Castrioti" -"John Castriota" -"John Kastriot" -"John Kastrioti" -"John Kastriota" -llc -Knowledge 3156:"Gjon Kastrioti" -"John Castriot" -"John Castrioti" -"John Castriota" -"John Kastriot" -"John Kastrioti" -"John Kastriota" -llc -Knowledge 1267:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a

2575: 1571:

Absolutely agree that the count does not give only reliable sources. The main point with the count was to show that "Ivan Kastrioti" is

3772:: I suppose arguments like "original name" and "real name", from users who "never heared the english name", have their meanings, too.-- 2515:

This proposal was three-in-one, and difficult to deal with. I think we should take the articles one by one. First: Gjon Castrioti : -->

130:

is used to refer to Ivan Kastriota in Ragusan and Venetian documents, as well as by the Byzantine historian Laonikos Chalkokondyles:

2451:

While I was writing the above, the proposer has been blocked as a sock, so the question of them withdrawing the proposal is moot. --

751:, who crossed the line of the rules by reverting me. But "renowned scholar Olsi Jazexhi"... okay. I suppose you also agree with the 362:

by whose standards, yours!? You are drawing arbitrary conclusions without providing any supporting material for your distorted POV.

2120:"John Castriot" OR "John Castrioti" OR "John Castriota" OR "John Kastriot" OR "John Kastrioti" OR "John Kastriota" -llc -Knowledge 3426:

everywhere. I'm flattered. (Don't take offense. In your talk page you advertize that you are against nationalism. Aren't you?).--

860:

I suggest that the current discussion is closed immediately and that we start from scratch with the two discussions. And please:

417:

as your edits appear to have an air of sophistication and only devoted to this article, are you a returning editor or a new one?

1720: 3037:, now, now no need to get snippy. I asked you where is your evidence regarding all the allegations you made about the sources. 512:

Yes, text should not be duplicated. Also, large pieces of text, other than quotations, are not suppposed to be in the notes.

2468:

The surname of this person is the same with many other members of Kastriot family. The most notable member of this family is

490:

in that format and not a separate name section in the article. That has been the consensus version. Skylax's recent addition

2672:

This request is a follow up on a recent previous discussion immediately above and is based on extensive input going back to

59: 2794: 4091: 4072: 2354: 1671:: One does not corroborate the validity of the current titles by undermining the proposed alternatives. The ubiquity of 3820:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

2759: 2601:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

2495: 2425: 277: 80:

1. Ludwig von Thallóczy and Konstantin Jireček state that the name of Ivan Kastriota in contemporaneous documents is

2465:

I think that the issue here is much wider than this article because it is neccesary to follow consistency criteria:

2260:

policy. This problem becomes even more apparent when we extend the period back to the beginning of the 18th-century.

3972: 2310: 1602: 1312: 1232: 38: 2800:(IJLLIS) vol. 2 issue. 3 by Albert Riska). These names are old within the Albanian linguistic and cultural sphere. 2733:

Gjon. It corresponds to Jovan or Ivan. Just like in contemporary Serbian or Turkish language original documents.

2537: 1627: 1258: 464: 3309: 3899: 2831:

is justified, as it was used at G.Castrioti's time in official correspondence, and himself signed so. Also,

2609:. Both names are permissible, but there is a clear absence of consensus for the proposed move at this time. 1425:

I do not even bother with the Skanderbeg suggestion, since "George Kastriota - Skanderbeg" is so obviously

4013:

I have removed the CN tag, as there is enough material in the main body of the article, of Kastriti being

2788: 2755: 2491: 2434: 2421: 2238:

policy, yet he fails to recognise the inadequacy of Albanian names in English spoken articles on his part.

1698:

Under E.J. Brill's Encyclopaedia of Islam (Second Edition), there is the following entry for Iskander Beg:

1403:(The counting in Google books search is not working properly here. It says 1220, but I have counted them.) 273: 3308:

geography, on a subject that is irrelevant to 15th century. She works at the Dept of Geography at Tirana

2298: 1928:

It is irrelevent how Kapodistrias was calling himself. The question lies on the popularity of each name.

1683:, etc., is not an argument for anything; these are still Albanian names, and they do not comply with the 446:. I have more on the name, as it was used by authors as an indication of origin, therefore encyclopedic. 3872: 3022: 2984: 2639: 2547: 2324: 1767: 1344: 1321: 1268: 1204: 1068: 937: 798: 723: 605: 552: 390: 297: 245: 3746: 2018:

And then the timeline ends in 2008. The trend is clearer when you reduce smoothing to 1, rather than 3

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Bogumil Hrabak, "Širenje arbanaških stočara po ravnicama i slovenski ratari srednjovekovne Albanije",

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policy. Plain and simple. Even in the online version of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, it stands that

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moving Gjon Kastrioti to "John Castriot" or similar: The proposing editor may have misunderstood the

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controversial page move reverted as it was undiscussed, In future, feel free to make a request at

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Furthermore, your approach is against one of the main Knowledge policies, which is verifiability.

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Yes, this is the expression I was looking for. Based on past discussion, I believe that either

3742: 3728: 3711: 3640: 1653:

and larger Albanian/Ottoman/Balkan history published in English will use "Gjon Kastrioti". --

1285: 652:

Either provide a few Google Books links or do not expect anybody to continue this discussion.

449:

P.S. Commending on users is prohibited by WP, and cannot substitute arguments on the point.--

3749:

or some english equivalent, if one exists, and even historic figuress like the Greek captain

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2) My "weasel tricks" were only used to show that there is no way "Ivan Kastriot(a)" is the

2320: 2203: 2135: 1763: 1581: 1516: 1499: 1340: 1224: 1200: 1094: 1064: 982: 958: 933: 877: 794: 719: 647: 626: 601: 573: 548: 412: 386: 293: 241: 3894: 3352:

there is no guarantee that all the hits are reliable sources, but that goes for both sides.

2157:, as Google scholar demostrates "Gjon Kastrioti" is the most common used name by scholars. 1244: 1129: 881: 727: 688: 524: 458: 329: 249: 151: 146:

François Pall, "Une nouvelle histoire de Scanderbeg (Remarques sur le livre de M. Gegaj)",

2823:": "... The founder of the family Castriota was a certain Branilo, ... and whose grandson 2517:

George Castrioti/Kastriota/Castriota Skanderbegand, and then the obscure Gjon Muzaka : -->

1848: 1735: 865: 443: 3532:

would we examine medieval literature as well ... and compare them with modern literature

1553:(for which I get the message that is black-listed), and are not 25, as TU-nor claims. -- 747:

I am completely in my rights to delete my edit as no one had replied to it-- it is you,

4018: 3958: 3926: 3835: 3589: 3505: 2688: 2629: 2481: 2420:

That does not mean that initial proposal has to be withrawn and new proposal started.--

2410: 2406: 2369:

explains how to use Google search in a best possible way, which I have tried to follow.

2366: 2358: 2350: 2314: 2274: 2231: 2082: 2035: 2021: 1981: 1757: 1654: 1623: 1612: 1297: 1150:

is. It is a Slavic name written according to the Greek phonetic rules and accentuation.

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is a duplication of that information. What's the purpose of repeating the same thing?

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3. Bogumil Hrabak in one of his studies reiterates the same and states that the name

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One book says that gjon did not die as johachim but was poisoned by ottoman sultans

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will find the sources that uses "Gjon" and does not use any of the "John" versions.

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gj (the former being the "y" sound in Englihs, the latter being something like "I ha

2056: 2041: 2027: 2008: 1962: 1937: 1911: 1885: 1864: 1839: 1815: 1771: 1660: 1639: 1585: 1562: 1520: 1503: 1348: 1289: 1208: 1112: 1072: 986: 941: 898: 802: 762: 661: 640: 609: 587: 556: 541: 502: 476: 426: 394: 346: 301: 281: 3811: 3750: 3724: 3707: 2774: 2745: 2643: 2592: 1991: 1281: 998: 966: 829: 790:

I would warmly recommend you to read that book which is also available in Albanian.

2093:

Google Scholar restricted to English pages and delimited to the years after 2000:

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The founder of the family Castriota was a certain Branilo, ... and whose grandson

1696: 3637:

Skënderbeu i shpërfytyruar nga një historian zviceran dhe disa analistë shqiptarë

3158:

will find those that use one of the "John" versions and does not mention "Gjon".

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There are three clear and undisputable facts supported by scientific consensus:

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

2744:

Gjon is Albanian language neologism (confirmed even by famous paid Albanophile

1619:, but as it will certainly attract here dozens of users and puppets warring, I 1576:

seems to be most used, but this needs more research. Changes my !vote a bit. --

838:

The other question, whether the presentation of names should be made through a

788: 3065: 2546:

Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a

2469: 2376:. I have never claimed that all the hits found by the search were relevant. I 2361:, which is about using Google search for establishing notability, and that is 1973: 1598: 1337: 1308: 716: 709: 439: 2072:

a") very possibly happened in Ottoman times though exactly when is unclear.

1005:, not by the "official name" or the "authentic name" (whatever that means). 366: 109:

Ludwig von Thallóczy, Konstantin Jireček, "Zwei Urkunden aus Nordalbanien",

3069:

not to be found in any greek text ever, old or new. This is how it works.--

973:, not by the "official name" or the "authentic name" (whatever that means). 793:

Not agreeing with what Olsi Jazexhi says would be next to mildly autistic.

2309:

Perhaps the official genealogy of the Castriot(a) family might be of help.

379:, the same way I expect that we do not albanize Ivan Kastriot's name into 1804:, lord of Mat ... married Voisava Tripalda, daughter of a Serbian magnate 780:

Olsi Jazexhi is quite an accomplished scholar, read his Curriculum Vitae.

701:

conducted in English few days ago and should be of interest to the topic.

3941:

views as "fringe". Still they are invited here to explain their edits.--

2840: 1039: 1037: 1035: 1033: 927:

By the same token, when we are referring to Ivan Kastriot, we mean the

363: 292:

renamed into Ivan Kastriot, the way contemporary sources recorded him.

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contains the root Ivan with a Greek ending/suffix -is attached to it.

2116:

If we try for all the different surname spellings of "John", we get

3536:

Your method of research seems biased in favor of outdated material.

2883:

In which case, "Ivan" is fine, because is used by Oliver Schmitt.--

2676:

in 2012. I have notified previous participants of this nomination.

1063:

that the editors are mostly disturbed by the current title naming.

932:

username Ktrimi991 says, but not the name Ivan which is authentic.

3900:

Demus John, "Conferences and studies on Skanderbeg : in Albania",

2841:

Fan Noli, "George Castrioti Scanderbeg", pp 23, 86, 88, 89, 90 etc

578:

Can you provide some Google Books on the name of Gjon Kastrioti?

2729:

The name of this man (attested in primary sources) was not Gjon.

2401:

I don't agree with your conclusion that the initial proposal is

126:, François Pall supports Nicolae Iorga and states that the name 872:

and all that. This discussion has gone too far off the mark. --

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Expected any way, when there are no other valid arguments.--

3723:

I think it's best to use the original name of the subject.--

3287:

conclusion. But I can clearly live with both conclusions. --

1876:. Gjon Kastrioti remains the most common used name for him. 2319:

Congratulations for that text, it really made me laugh. :)

1140: 122:

2. In a rather harsh critic to Athanase Gegaj and his book

3418:... excluding the made-in-Albania nationalistic articles, 1852: 1462:

has too few hits (one against zero) to be considered here.

220:

das Gebiet von Skanderbegs Vater Ivan oder Jovan Kastriota

1331:– Current names of these articles do not comply with the 3021:

could talk, it would certainly vote for "Gjon". But the

2591:

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a

163:

was the only name by which Ivan Kastriota was recorded:

3025:

works for all. Why don't you like "John", for example?

2634: 2279: 2206:) didn't provide cited reference supporting his claim. 1163:

The Family Tree of the Kastriota Family in 15th Century

1091:

Everyone in the Balkans has their idea of "authentic".

698: 491: 488: 269: 104:, ist aus dem Urkundenmaterial dieser Zeit gut bekannt. 3324:

some "Gjon" in every article, just to manipulate WP.--

1726:

Same goes for other major encyclopedias. Thus we find

1717:

Iskender’s father John/Ivan (in Ottoman sources Yovan)

755:

things he says :)? I'm just gonna leave that there.--

320:

the conformity of the present title to the WP rules.--

3810:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

3664:

What he is called in Albanian is hardly the point. --

2536:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a

1542:

national hero Gjergj Kastrioti ...", written by some

1189:, etc. Of course, you can always Anglicise them into 532:

Well your edit does not also signal consensus either.

925: 368:

And lastly, by trying to banalize the importance of

2578:on 18 July 2018. The result of the move review was 2271:, I suggest these names for the following articles: 1438:"Ivan Kastriota" OR "Ivan Kastriot" -llc -Knowledge 1386:"Ivan Kastriota" OR "Ivan Kastriot" -llc -Knowledge 1271:. No further edits should be made to this section. 828:Regarding the title, it has to be solved through a 3530:, both of which are factually wrong. Your comment 2650:appears to be a neologism and is less common than 2550:. No further edits should be made to this section. 1538:says "The Prince Gjon Kastrioti was the father of 1790:, printed edition, 1959, vol. 20, p. 726, artcl " 3834:]. Admin help in reverting this is requested.-- 438:Many articles have a "name" section, including 214: 171: 138: 96: 4051:Was he there? Two books say he was there !!.. 2908:Only Schmitt wrote in German, not English. -- 2355:"What a search test can do—and what it can't" 1043: 991: 903: 230:Skanderbeg: der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan 124:L'Albanie et l'Invasion turque au XV-e siècle 8: 4035:Gjon Castrioti did not die in mount hilindar 3863:to revert undiscussed page moves. cheers. -- 3524:include sources since BoT(Beginning of Time) 3491:As has been adequately demonstrated Gjon is 1103:account) and are sophisticated for a newbie. 442:. Some have a very extensive serction, like 186:Stanovništvo slovenskog porijekla u Albaniji 3925:, there are the answers of your questions. 1719:had been a buffer between the Venetians..." 1490:"John Castriot" is a relevant candidate to 717:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2sbh7jj150 710:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhb4SaECGbk 4058: 1257:The following is a closed discussion of a 3678:You are misrepresenting what I am saying 1872:There are lots of counter examples, like 483:The editor @Xhfgsepfiuh appears to be a 3627: 2516:John Castrioti, then Skanderbeg --: --> 697:Do not delete your own edits Calthinus! 173:Gospodar Šufadaja bio je Ivan Kastriot 3535: 3531: 3527: 3523: 2402: 2267:Based on the results of the following 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3639:(in Albanian). Tirana: Dudaj. p. 85. 1440:(searching only English pages) gives 7: 3534:is close to being hostile. And then 3500:that the results are not conclusive 1743:, The New Cambridge Medieval History 1417:"house of kastriota" -llc -wikipedia 1408:"house of kastrioti" -llc -wikipedia 1276:The result of the move request was: 148:Revue historique du Sud-Est européen 2673: 2658:for comparison in print sources — 1382:Let's take a look at Google Books: 1231:, your comments are veering toward 977:regardless of the article title. -- 785:The origins of Albanian nationalism 84:(Ivan!) and not the albanized form 3258:14 hits, of which 4 not in English 3019:President Bush's statue in Tirana 2349:1) The relevant recommendation is 1737:, The New Encyclopaedia Britannica 1227:, apart from your account being a 1142:Thence, you will read his name as 24: 4043:Gjondeda 13:42, 1 May 2019 (UTC) 3250:6 hits, of which 2 not in English 2336:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 1779:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 1357:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 1216:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 1080:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 1046:regardless of the article title. 949:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 810:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 749:Aleksandër_I_Madh_Është_Shqipëtar 735:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 617:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 564:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 402:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 309:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 257:Aleksandër I Madh Është Shqipëtar 101:Iuanus Castrioti der Zeitgenossen 3976:grind or to promote nationalism. 3971:@Skylax is at it again with his 3850: 3346:Quite interesting research dear 2564: 2097:"Gjon Kastrioti" -llc -Knowledge 1902:was calling himself "Ioannis".-- 1695:are specifically Albanian names. 1447:"Gjon Kastrioti" -llc -Knowledge 1395:"Gjon Kastrioti" -llc -Knowledge 1165:. There he lists the names like 29: 2576:listed at Knowledge:Move review 2403:a proposal that no one supports 2106:"John Castriot" -llc -Knowledge 1734:in 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica 1494:, "Ivan Kastriot(a)" is not. -- 1480:"John Castriot" -llc -Knowledge 1471:"John Castriot" -llc -Knowledge 111:Archiv für slavische Philologie 3189:15 hits, of which 1 in Turkish 2821:Skanderbeg or George Castriota 1732:George Castriot(a)/Kastriot(a) 176:(koji se kao Ivan uvek beleži) 1: 4027:11:19, 12 February 2019 (UTC) 4005:09:51, 12 February 2019 (UTC) 3986:23:40, 11 February 2019 (UTC) 3967:23:09, 11 February 2019 (UTC) 3951:20:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC) 3935:20:15, 11 February 2019 (UTC) 3916:20:01, 11 February 2019 (UTC) 2833:Encyclopedia Britanica online 2646:(use English). The forename 1822:Encyclopedia Britanica online 1603:George Kastriota - Skanderbeg 1313:George Kastriota - Skanderbeg 4077:10:42, 2 December 2019 (UTC) 3422:. Btw, thanks for following 2484:, while the other are Gjons. 1740:, The Encyclopedia Americana 1728:John Castriot(a)/Kastriot(a) 3882:19:15, 8 October 2018 (UTC) 3844:15:35, 8 October 2018 (UTC) 1628:John Kastriota or Kastrioti 1532:Comment on the above counts 1429:the common name in English. 1250:Requested move 28 June 2018 4108: 3904:Vol 9, No 2 (1968), p. 493 2557:Requested move 2 July 2018 3803:11:02, 11 July 2018 (UTC) 3635:Frashëri, Kristo (2009). 3528:not the latest literature 2625:03:29, 15 July 2018 (UTC) 2529:22:07, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 2500:17:08, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 2461:12:16, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 2447:12:09, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 2430:09:38, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 2394:09:01, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 2329:08:03, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 2216:21:58, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 2185:19:53, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 2167:18:02, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 2140:06:05, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 2089:00:16, 30 June 2018 (UTC) 2057:20:33, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 2042:19:46, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 2028:19:43, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 2009:15:22, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 1963:23:23, 28 June 2018 (UTC) 1938:21:58, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 1912:20:08, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 1886:18:02, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 1865:11:42, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 1840:06:50, 29 June 2018 (UTC) 1816:18:02, 28 June 2018 (UTC) 1772:17:39, 28 June 2018 (UTC) 1707:George (Gjergj) Kastriota 1661:14:31, 28 June 2018 (UTC) 1640:12:33, 28 June 2018 (UTC) 1586:14:26, 28 June 2018 (UTC) 1563:13:22, 28 June 2018 (UTC) 1521:08:22, 28 June 2018 (UTC) 1504:08:13, 28 June 2018 (UTC) 1467:And just for the record: 1349:07:14, 28 June 2018 (UTC) 1245:06:32, 27 June 2018 (UTC) 1209:06:26, 27 June 2018 (UTC) 1130:08:41, 26 June 2018 (UTC) 1113:08:13, 26 June 2018 (UTC) 1073:07:27, 27 June 2018 (UTC) 1055:09:23, 26 June 2018 (UTC) 1014:09:23, 26 June 2018 (UTC) 987:09:23, 26 June 2018 (UTC) 942:07:01, 26 June 2018 (UTC) 914:18:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC) 899:20:03, 25 June 2018 (UTC) 882:18:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC) 803:07:35, 26 June 2018 (UTC) 763:15:37, 25 June 2018 (UTC) 728:15:26, 25 June 2018 (UTC) 689:10:41, 25 June 2018 (UTC) 662:22:32, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 641:22:14, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 610:22:28, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 588:22:07, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 557:22:02, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 542:13:28, 22 June 2018 (UTC) 525:07:55, 22 June 2018 (UTC) 503:20:45, 21 June 2018 (UTC) 477:10:15, 21 June 2018 (UTC) 459:10:10, 21 June 2018 (UTC) 427:21:38, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 395:21:28, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 347:08:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC) 330:08:01, 21 June 2018 (UTC) 302:23:14, 23 June 2018 (UTC) 282:19:19, 20 June 2018 (UTC) 3817:Please do not modify it. 3782:08:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC) 3763:23:12, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 3760:👧🏻 SilentResident 👧🏻 3733:09:32, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 3716:05:14, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 3692:23:35, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3674:22:42, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3617:21:50, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3598:17:06, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3569:17:25, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3552:17:03, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3514:16:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3469:06:47, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 3436:06:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 3398:16:23, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3381:15:54, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3364:15:42, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3334:06:28, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 3314:Gjergj Kastrioti called 3297:13:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 3095:13:27, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 3079:10:29, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 3047:08:02, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 2997:13:17, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 2956:06:08, 4 July 2018 (UTC) 2918:13:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 2893:13:05, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 2876:12:13, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 2853:11:56, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 2810:09:58, 3 July 2018 (UTC) 2777:(1606–1643) in his book 2764:21:31, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 2717:19:29, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 2697:17:48, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 2667:17:20, 2 July 2018 (UTC) 2598:Please do not modify it. 2543:Please do not modify it. 1762:Empty threats, stop it. 1651:actually about the topic 1482:in Google Scholar gives 1290:02:36, 1 July 2018 (UTC) 1264:Please do not modify it. 3283:least 10 years to make 842:or through a separate " 250:06:23, 8 May 2018 (UTC) 150:(1937), Vol. 14, p. 298 3888:The Albanian POV again 3753:could be renamed into 3745:could be renamed into 2245:On the other hand, as 2230:'s weasel tricks with 1788:Encyclopedia Britanica 1705:"... Ottoman name for 1473:in Google Books gives 1058: 1017: 917: 834:There is no other way. 371:"""Gjon Kastrioti's""" 235: 193: 155: 118: 113:(1899), Vol. 21, p. 88 4047:Battle of Kosovo 1389 4017:. See titles section. 2472:while all others are 1855:, and this is fine.-- 1551:worldheritage-dot-org 1434:Then Google Scholar: 228:Oliver Jens Schmitt, 75:Ivan Kastriota's name 42:of past discussions. 1900:Ioannis Kapodistrias 1874:Ioannis Kapodistrias 1368:initially proposed, 1028:would comply to the 848:request for comments 74: 4092:Closed move reviews 3973:WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS 3898:and the other 1968 2798:Anglisticum Journal 2409:supports a move of 2365:the question here. 2299:The Castriot Family 1233:WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS 360:"Obscure documents" 18:Talk:Gjon Kastrioti 3827:Non-consensus move 2295:House of Kastrioti 1997:this Google Ngram. 1460:House of Kastriota 1456:House of Kastrioti 1322:House of Kastriota 1318:House of Kastrioti 465:WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS 4079: 4063:comment added by 4015:Albanian nobleman 3747:George Mattarella 3743:Sergio Mattarella 3645:978-99943-0-109-6 3312:our national hero 2789:Antidiskriminator 2781:, who calls him " 2756:Antidiskriminator 2674:a similar request 2656:this Google Ngram 2586: 2585: 2492:Antidiskriminator 2435:Antidiskriminator 2422:Antidiskriminator 2340: 2059: 2032:Here's 1990-2008 1783: 1404: 1361: 1220: 1084: 1056: 1015: 953: 915: 814: 739: 621: 568: 406: 313: 274:Antidiskriminator 261: 141:Chalkokandyles... 72: 71: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4099: 3879: 3876: 3870: 3858: 3854: 3853: 3819: 3654: 3653: 3632: 3036: 2792: 2664: 2637: 2617: 2600: 2568: 2567: 2561: 2545: 2519:Mediterranean.-- 2416:John Castriot(a) 2332: 2318: 2282: 2251: 2054: 2047: 2006: 1987:John Castriot(a) 1775: 1761: 1402: 1353: 1266: 1212: 1195:George Castriota 1098: 1076: 1054: 1053: 1013: 1012: 945: 924:of Nazi Germany. 913: 912: 806: 731: 651: 630: 613: 599: 577: 560: 416: 398: 358: 305: 253: 233: 191: 153: 116: 98:Ivan Kastriota, 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4107: 4106: 4102: 4101: 4100: 4098: 4097: 4096: 4082: 4081: 4049: 4037: 3890: 3874: 3868: 3865: 3851: 3849: 3829: 3824: 3815: 3738:Strongly Oppose 3659: 3658: 3657: 3646: 3634: 3633: 3629: 3605:Strongly Oppose 3518:Edit conflict: 3030: 2786: 2660: 2633: 2611: 2596: 2572:This discussion 2565: 2559: 2554: 2541: 2312: 2278: 2247: 2050: 2002: 1849:John Chrysostom 1755: 1262: 1252: 1092: 1048: 1007: 907: 645: 624: 593: 571: 444:Arianiti family 410: 352: 234: 227: 192: 183: 154: 145: 117: 108: 77: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4105: 4103: 4095: 4094: 4084: 4083: 4048: 4045: 4036: 4033: 4032: 4031: 4030: 4029: 4008: 4007: 3991: 3990: 3989: 3988: 3938: 3937: 3902:Balkan Studies 3889: 3886: 3885: 3884: 3828: 3825: 3823: 3822: 3812:requested move 3806: 3805: 3785: 3784: 3766: 3765: 3735: 3718: 3699: 3698: 3697: 3696: 3695: 3694: 3656: 3655: 3644: 3626: 3625: 3621: 3620: 3619: 3601: 3600: 3582: 3581: 3580: 3579: 3578: 3577: 3576: 3575: 3574: 3573: 3572: 3571: 3516: 3480: 3479: 3478: 3477: 3476: 3475: 3474: 3473: 3472: 3471: 3447: 3446: 3445: 3444: 3443: 3442: 3441: 3440: 3439: 3438: 3407: 3406: 3405: 3404: 3403: 3402: 3401: 3400: 3341: 3340: 3339: 3338: 3337: 3336: 3300: 3299: 3280: 3279: 3278: 3277: 3276: 3268: 3260: 3252: 3239: 3238: 3237: 3229: 3221: 3213: 3195: 3194: 3193: 3192: 3191: 3183: 3175: 3167: 3153: 3152: 3151: 3143: 3135: 3127: 3111:Google Scholar 3107: 3106: 3098: 3097: 3062: 3061: 3060: 3059: 3058: 3057: 3056: 3055: 3054: 3053: 3052: 3051: 3050: 3049: 3023:wp:idontlikeit 3006: 3005: 3004: 3003: 3002: 3001: 3000: 2999: 2985:wp:idontlikeit 2971: 2970: 2969: 2968: 2967: 2966: 2965: 2964: 2963: 2962: 2961: 2960: 2959: 2958: 2931: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2927: 2926: 2925: 2924: 2923: 2922: 2921: 2920: 2881: 2880: 2879: 2878: 2856: 2855: 2813: 2812: 2768: 2767: 2766: 2750: 2749: 2742: 2730: 2720: 2719: 2700: 2699: 2678: 2677: 2640:WP:COMMONNAMES 2630:Gjon Kastrioti 2604: 2603: 2593:requested move 2587: 2584: 2583: 2569: 2558: 2555: 2553: 2552: 2538:requested move 2532: 2513: 2512: 2511: 2510: 2509: 2508: 2507: 2506: 2505: 2504: 2503: 2502: 2487: 2486: 2485: 2477: 2449: 2411:Gjon Kastrioti 2381: 2370: 2353:, the section 2342: 2341: 2302: 2301: 2292: 2283: 2275:Gjon Kastrioti 2272: 2264: 2263: 2241: 2240: 2219: 2218: 2170: 2169: 2151: 2150: 2149: 2148: 2147: 2146: 2145: 2144: 2143: 2142: 2128: 2127: 2126: 2114: 2113: 2112: 2103: 2030: 2012: 2011: 1982:Gjon Kastrioti 1966: 1965: 1947: 1946: 1945: 1944: 1943: 1942: 1941: 1940: 1919: 1918: 1917: 1916: 1915: 1914: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1888: 1792:Skanderbeg or 1785: 1784: 1748: 1747: 1723: 1722: 1711: 1710: 1701: 1700: 1693:Gjon Kastrioti 1664: 1663: 1643: 1642: 1624:Gjon Kastrioti 1617:Ivan Kastriota 1613:Gjon Kastrioti 1606: 1591: 1590: 1589: 1588: 1566: 1565: 1528: 1527: 1526: 1525: 1524: 1523: 1488: 1487: 1486: 1477: 1465: 1464: 1463: 1453: 1444: 1432: 1431: 1430: 1423: 1414: 1405: 1401: 1392: 1379: 1378: 1326: 1324: 1315: 1305: 1302:Ivan Kastriota 1298:Gjon Kastrioti 1293: 1274: 1273: 1259:requested move 1253: 1251: 1248: 1222: 1221: 1191:John Castriota 1153: 1152: 1118: 1117: 1116: 1115: 1089: 1088: 1087: 1086: 1085: 1059: 1047: 1041: 1026:Ivan Kastriota 1018: 1006: 999:requested move 974: 967:requested move 920:etc., but the 906: 901: 830:requested move 822: 821: 820: 819: 818: 817: 816: 815: 770: 769: 768: 767: 766: 765: 706: 705: 704: 703: 677: 676: 675: 674: 673: 672: 671: 670: 669: 668: 667: 666: 665: 664: 510: 509: 508: 507: 506: 505: 436: 435: 434: 433: 432: 431: 430: 429: 317: 316: 315: 314: 285: 284: 225: 181: 143: 106: 76: 73: 70: 69: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4104: 4093: 4090: 4089: 4087: 4080: 4078: 4074: 4070: 4066: 4062: 4057: 4054: 4046: 4044: 4042: 4034: 4028: 4024: 4020: 4016: 4012: 4011: 4010: 4009: 4006: 4002: 3998: 3993: 3992: 3987: 3983: 3979: 3974: 3970: 3969: 3968: 3964: 3960: 3955: 3954: 3953: 3952: 3948: 3944: 3936: 3932: 3928: 3924: 3920: 3919: 3918: 3917: 3913: 3909: 3905: 3903: 3897: 3887: 3883: 3880: 3878: 3871: 3862: 3857: 3848: 3847: 3846: 3845: 3841: 3837: 3833: 3826: 3821: 3818: 3813: 3808: 3807: 3804: 3800: 3796: 3792: 3787: 3786: 3783: 3779: 3775: 3771: 3768: 3767: 3764: 3761: 3756: 3752: 3748: 3744: 3739: 3736: 3734: 3730: 3726: 3722: 3719: 3717: 3713: 3709: 3704: 3701: 3700: 3693: 3689: 3685: 3681: 3677: 3676: 3675: 3671: 3667: 3663: 3662: 3661: 3660: 3652: 3647: 3642: 3638: 3631: 3628: 3624: 3618: 3614: 3610: 3606: 3603: 3602: 3599: 3595: 3591: 3587: 3584: 3583: 3570: 3566: 3562: 3558: 3555: 3554: 3553: 3549: 3545: 3541: 3537: 3533: 3529: 3525: 3521: 3517: 3515: 3511: 3507: 3503: 3499: 3494: 3490: 3489: 3488: 3487: 3486: 3485: 3484: 3483: 3482: 3481: 3470: 3466: 3462: 3457: 3456: 3455: 3454: 3453: 3452: 3451: 3450: 3449: 3448: 3437: 3433: 3429: 3425: 3421: 3417: 3416: 3415: 3414: 3413: 3412: 3411: 3410: 3409: 3408: 3399: 3395: 3391: 3387: 3384: 3383: 3382: 3378: 3374: 3370: 3367: 3366: 3365: 3361: 3357: 3353: 3349: 3345: 3344: 3343: 3342: 3335: 3331: 3327: 3323: 3319: 3317: 3313: 3306: 3305: 3304: 3303: 3302: 3301: 3298: 3294: 3290: 3286: 3281: 3275: 3273: 3269: 3267: 3265: 3261: 3259: 3257: 3253: 3251: 3249: 3245: 3244: 3243: 3240: 3236: 3234: 3230: 3228: 3226: 3222: 3220: 3218: 3214: 3212: 3210: 3206: 3205: 3204: 3201: 3200: 3199: 3196: 3190: 3188: 3184: 3182: 3180: 3176: 3174: 3172: 3168: 3166: 3164: 3160: 3159: 3157: 3154: 3150: 3148: 3144: 3142: 3140: 3136: 3134: 3132: 3128: 3126: 3124: 3120: 3119: 3117: 3114: 3113: 3112: 3109: 3108: 3103: 3100: 3099: 3096: 3092: 3088: 3083: 3082: 3081: 3080: 3076: 3072: 3067: 3048: 3044: 3040: 3034: 3029: 3028: 3027: 3026: 3024: 3020: 3016: 3015: 3014: 3013: 3012: 3011: 3010: 3009: 3008: 3007: 2998: 2994: 2990: 2986: 2982: 2979: 2978: 2977: 2976: 2975: 2974: 2973: 2972: 2957: 2953: 2949: 2945: 2944: 2943: 2942: 2941: 2940: 2939: 2938: 2937: 2936: 2935: 2934: 2933: 2932: 2919: 2915: 2911: 2907: 2906: 2905: 2904: 2903: 2902: 2901: 2900: 2899: 2898: 2897: 2896: 2895: 2894: 2890: 2886: 2877: 2873: 2869: 2865: 2860: 2859: 2858: 2857: 2854: 2850: 2846: 2842: 2838: 2834: 2830: 2826: 2822: 2818: 2815: 2814: 2811: 2807: 2803: 2799: 2795: 2790: 2784: 2780: 2776: 2772: 2769: 2765: 2761: 2757: 2752: 2751: 2747: 2743: 2740: 2736: 2731: 2728: 2727: 2725: 2722: 2721: 2718: 2714: 2710: 2705: 2702: 2701: 2698: 2694: 2690: 2686: 2683: 2680: 2679: 2675: 2671: 2670: 2669: 2668: 2665: 2663: 2657: 2653: 2649: 2645: 2641: 2636: 2635:John Castriot 2631: 2627: 2626: 2623: 2622: 2618: 2616: 2615: 2608: 2602: 2599: 2594: 2589: 2588: 2581: 2577: 2573: 2570: 2563: 2562: 2556: 2551: 2549: 2544: 2539: 2534: 2533: 2531: 2530: 2526: 2522: 2501: 2497: 2493: 2490:discussion.-- 2488: 2483: 2478: 2475: 2471: 2467: 2466: 2464: 2463: 2462: 2458: 2454: 2450: 2448: 2444: 2440: 2436: 2433: 2432: 2431: 2427: 2423: 2418: 2417: 2412: 2408: 2404: 2400: 2397: 2396: 2395: 2391: 2387: 2382: 2379: 2375: 2374:WP:COMMONNAME 2371: 2368: 2364: 2360: 2356: 2352: 2348: 2347: 2346: 2345: 2344: 2343: 2338: 2337: 2333:Blocked sock: 2331: 2330: 2326: 2322: 2316: 2311: 2307: 2306: 2304: 2303: 2300: 2296: 2293: 2291: 2290:Paul Castriot 2287: 2286:Pal Kastrioti 2284: 2281: 2280:John Castriot 2276: 2273: 2270: 2266: 2265: 2262: 2259: 2258:WP:COMMONNAME 2255: 2252: 2250: 2244: 2243: 2239: 2237: 2236:WP:COMMONNAME 2233: 2229: 2225: 2221: 2220: 2217: 2213: 2209: 2205: 2201: 2196: 2195:WP:COMMONNAME 2192: 2189: 2188: 2187: 2186: 2182: 2178: 2174: 2168: 2164: 2160: 2156: 2153: 2152: 2141: 2137: 2133: 2129: 2125: 2121: 2118: 2117: 2115: 2111: 2107: 2104: 2102: 2098: 2095: 2094: 2092: 2091: 2090: 2087: 2084: 2079: 2075: 2071: 2065: 2061: 2060: 2058: 2055: 2053: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2040: 2037: 2033: 2031: 2029: 2026: 2023: 2019: 2016: 2015: 2014: 2013: 2010: 2007: 2005: 1999: 1998: 1993: 1989: 1988: 1983: 1979: 1975: 1971: 1968: 1967: 1964: 1960: 1956: 1952: 1951:Strong oppose 1949: 1948: 1939: 1935: 1931: 1927: 1926: 1925: 1924: 1923: 1922: 1921: 1920: 1913: 1909: 1905: 1901: 1897: 1896: 1895: 1894: 1893: 1892: 1887: 1883: 1879: 1875: 1871: 1870: 1869: 1868: 1867: 1866: 1862: 1858: 1854: 1853:Gjoni Gojarti 1850: 1846: 1842: 1841: 1837: 1833: 1829: 1824: 1823: 1818: 1817: 1813: 1809: 1805: 1803: 1797: 1793: 1789: 1781: 1780: 1776:Blocked sock: 1774: 1773: 1769: 1765: 1759: 1753: 1752: 1750: 1749: 1745: 1742: 1739: 1736: 1733: 1729: 1725: 1724: 1721: 1718: 1713: 1712: 1708: 1704: 1703: 1699: 1697: 1694: 1690: 1686: 1685:WP:COMMONNAME 1682: 1678: 1674: 1670: 1666: 1665: 1662: 1659: 1656: 1652: 1648: 1647:Strong Oppose 1645: 1644: 1641: 1637: 1633: 1629: 1625: 1622: 1618: 1614: 1610: 1607: 1604: 1600: 1596: 1593: 1592: 1587: 1583: 1579: 1574: 1570: 1569: 1568: 1567: 1564: 1560: 1556: 1552: 1548: 1545: 1541: 1537: 1533: 1530: 1529: 1522: 1518: 1514: 1509: 1508: 1507: 1506: 1505: 1501: 1497: 1493: 1492:WP:COMMONNAME 1489: 1485: 1481: 1478: 1476: 1472: 1469: 1468: 1466: 1461: 1457: 1454: 1452: 1448: 1445: 1443: 1442:three results 1439: 1436: 1435: 1433: 1428: 1424: 1422: 1418: 1415: 1413: 1409: 1406: 1400: 1396: 1393: 1391: 1387: 1384: 1383: 1381: 1380: 1375: 1374:WP:COMMONNAME 1371: 1367: 1364: 1363: 1362: 1359: 1358: 1354:Blocked sock: 1352: 1350: 1346: 1342: 1338: 1334: 1333:WP:COMMONNAME 1328: 1325: 1323: 1319: 1316: 1314: 1310: 1307: 1304: 1303: 1299: 1295: 1294: 1292: 1291: 1287: 1283: 1279: 1272: 1270: 1265: 1260: 1255: 1254: 1249: 1247: 1246: 1242: 1238: 1234: 1230: 1226: 1218: 1217: 1213:Blocked sock: 1211: 1210: 1206: 1202: 1199: 1196: 1192: 1188: 1184: 1180: 1176: 1172: 1168: 1164: 1159: 1158: 1156: 1155: 1151: 1149: 1145: 1141: 1138: 1134: 1133: 1132: 1131: 1127: 1123: 1114: 1110: 1106: 1102: 1096: 1090: 1082: 1081: 1077:Blocked sock: 1075: 1074: 1070: 1066: 1060: 1057: 1052: 1042: 1040: 1038: 1036: 1034: 1031: 1030:WP:COMMONNAME 1027: 1023: 1022:Ivan Kastriot 1019: 1016: 1011: 1004: 1003:WP:COMMONNAME 1000: 996: 990: 989: 988: 984: 980: 975: 972: 971:WP:COMMONNAME 968: 964: 960: 957: 956: 955: 954: 951: 950: 946:Blocked sock: 944: 943: 939: 935: 930: 926: 923: 916: 911: 902: 900: 897: 894: 889: 886: 885: 884: 883: 879: 875: 871: 867: 863: 858: 856: 851: 849: 845: 841: 836: 835: 831: 826: 812: 811: 807:Blocked sock: 805: 804: 800: 796: 792: 789: 786: 782: 778: 777: 776: 775: 774: 773: 772: 771: 764: 761: 758: 754: 750: 746: 745: 744: 743: 742: 741: 740: 737: 736: 732:Blocked sock: 730: 729: 725: 721: 718: 713: 712: 711: 702: 699: 695: 694: 693: 692: 691: 690: 686: 682: 663: 659: 655: 649: 644: 643: 642: 638: 634: 628: 623: 622: 619: 618: 614:Blocked sock: 612: 611: 607: 603: 597: 591: 590: 589: 585: 581: 575: 570: 569: 566: 565: 561:Blocked sock: 559: 558: 554: 550: 545: 544: 543: 539: 535: 531: 530: 529: 528: 527: 526: 522: 518: 513: 504: 500: 496: 492: 489: 486: 482: 481: 480: 479: 478: 474: 470: 466: 463: 462: 461: 460: 456: 452: 447: 445: 441: 428: 424: 420: 414: 408: 407: 404: 403: 399:Blocked sock: 397: 396: 392: 388: 385: 382: 378: 373: 372: 367: 364: 361: 356: 350: 349: 348: 344: 340: 336: 335: 334: 333: 332: 331: 327: 323: 311: 310: 306:Blocked sock: 304: 303: 299: 295: 289: 288: 287: 286: 283: 279: 275: 271: 267: 264: 263: 262: 259: 258: 254:Blocked sock: 252: 251: 247: 243: 238: 236: 232:(2009), p. 24 231: 224: 222: 221: 212: 211: 208: 207: 205: 201: 194: 190: 187: 180: 178: 177: 169: 168: 165: 164: 162: 156: 152: 149: 142: 136: 135: 132: 131: 129: 125: 119: 115: 112: 105: 103: 102: 94: 93: 90: 89: 87: 83: 67: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 4059:— Preceding 4050: 4038: 4014: 3939: 3901: 3891: 3864: 3855: 3830: 3816: 3809: 3769: 3751:Pavlos Melas 3737: 3720: 3702: 3649: 3636: 3630: 3622: 3604: 3539: 3501: 3492: 3423: 3351: 3321: 3315: 3311: 3284: 3272:2010-present 3271: 3263: 3255: 3247: 3241: 3233:2010-present 3232: 3224: 3216: 3208: 3202: 3198:Google Books 3197: 3187:2010-present 3186: 3178: 3170: 3162: 3155: 3147:2010-present 3146: 3138: 3130: 3122: 3115: 3110: 3102:Weak support 3101: 3063: 2980: 2882: 2863: 2836: 2832: 2828: 2824: 2820: 2816: 2797: 2782: 2778: 2775:Frang Bardhi 2770: 2746:Robert Elsie 2738: 2734: 2723: 2703: 2681: 2661: 2651: 2647: 2628: 2620: 2613: 2612: 2606: 2605: 2597: 2590: 2579: 2571: 2542: 2535: 2514: 2414: 2377: 2362: 2335: 2308: 2305: 2248: 2242: 2223: 2222: 2202:. Proposer ( 2200:listed above 2198: 2190: 2172: 2171: 2154: 2119: 2105: 2096: 2077: 2073: 2069: 2063: 2051: 2003: 1995: 1985: 1977: 1972:any move of 1969: 1950: 1844: 1843: 1826: 1821: 1819: 1801: 1799: 1795: 1791: 1787: 1786: 1778: 1754: 1751: 1731: 1727: 1716: 1706: 1702: 1692: 1688: 1680: 1676: 1672: 1668: 1667: 1650: 1646: 1620: 1608: 1594: 1572: 1550: 1544:S Papathimiu 1543: 1539: 1531: 1479: 1470: 1459: 1455: 1446: 1437: 1426: 1416: 1407: 1394: 1385: 1369: 1365: 1356: 1330: 1329: 1327: 1306: 1296: 1277: 1275: 1263: 1256: 1223: 1215: 1194: 1190: 1186: 1182: 1178: 1174: 1170: 1166: 1162: 1160: 1157: 1154: 1147: 1143: 1136: 1135: 1119: 1079: 1061: 1051:User:TU-nor 1044: 1025: 1021: 1010:User:TU-nor 994: 992: 962: 961:: But there 948: 928: 922:Adolf Hitler 921: 918: 910:User:TU-nor 904: 859: 854: 852: 843: 839: 837: 833: 827: 823: 809: 784: 779: 752: 734: 715: 714: 708: 707: 696: 678: 616: 592: 563: 546: 514: 511: 448: 437: 401: 380: 376: 370: 369: 359: 351: 318: 308: 290: 265: 256: 240: 239: 237: 229: 219: 218: 215: 213: 210: 209: 203: 199: 196: 195: 185: 175: 174: 172: 170: 167: 166: 160: 158: 157: 147: 139: 137: 134: 133: 127: 123: 121: 120: 110: 100: 99: 97: 95: 92: 91: 85: 81: 79: 78: 65: 43: 37: 3557:User:TU-nor 2548:move review 2321:Xhfgsepfiuh 2204:Xhfgsepfiuh 1764:Xhfgsepfiuh 1341:Xhfgsepfiuh 1269:move review 1225:Xhfgsepfiuh 1201:Xhfgsepfiuh 1095:Xhfgsepfiuh 1065:Xhfgsepfiuh 1032:guidelines. 959:Xhfgsepfiuh 934:Xhfgsepfiuh 795:Xhfgsepfiuh 720:Xhfgsepfiuh 648:Xhfgsepfiuh 627:Xhfgsepfiuh 602:Xhfgsepfiuh 574:Xhfgsepfiuh 549:Xhfgsepfiuh 413:Xhfgsepfiuh 387:Xhfgsepfiuh 294:Xhfgsepfiuh 242:Xhfgsepfiuh 36:This is an 3755:Paul Melas 3623:References 3322:en passant 3316:Skënderbeu 3066:Skanderbeg 2796:(2013) in 2224:Comment #2 1980:a move of 1974:Skanderbeg 1599:Skanderbeg 1484:27 results 1451:25 results 1366:Oppose all 1336:discussion 1309:Skanderbeg 1183:Konstantin 993:But there 440:Skanderbeg 409:Question: 4019:Cinadon36 3959:Calthinus 3927:Ktrimi991 3923:WP:Fringe 3836:Calthinus 3706:monarchs. 3590:Calthinus 3561:Τζερόνυμο 3520:Τζερόνυμο 3506:Calthinus 3461:Τζερόνυμο 3420:Τζερόνυμο 3390:Τζερόνυμο 3369:Τζερόνυμο 3356:Τζερόνυμο 3264:2000-2010 3256:1980-2000 3248:1950-1980 3225:2000-2010 3217:1980-2000 3209:1950-1980 3179:2000-2010 3171:1980-2010 3163:1950-1980 3139:2000-2010 3131:1980-2000 3123:1950-1980 2868:Τζερόνυμο 2864:the Bible 2709:Τζερόνυμο 2689:Calthinus 2662:AjaxSmack 2607:Not moved 2474:Kastrioti 2407:AjaxSmack 2315:Calthinus 2249:AjaxSmack 2208:Τζερόνυμο 2083:Calthinus 2052:AjaxSmack 2036:Calthinus 2022:Calthinus 2004:AjaxSmack 1930:Τζερόνυμο 1898:At least 1796:Castriota 1758:Calthinus 1655:Calthinus 1421:zero hits 1412:four hits 1278:Not moved 893:Calthinus 757:Calthinus 654:Ktrimi991 596:Ktrimi991 580:Ktrimi991 469:Ktrimi991 355:Ktrimi991 339:Ktrimi991 66:Archive 2 60:Archive 1 4086:Category 4073:contribs 4061:unsigned 3997:Skylax30 3978:Resnjari 3943:Skylax30 3908:Skylax30 3774:Skylax30 3703:Support. 3684:Vargmali 3609:Vargmali 3428:Skylax30 3326:Skylax30 3087:Resnjari 3071:Skylax30 3039:Resnjari 3033:Skylax30 2989:Resnjari 2948:Skylax30 2885:Skylax30 2845:Skylax30 2829:Giovanni 2825:Giovanni 2802:Resnjari 2521:Skylax30 2470:Castriot 2177:Skylax30 2159:Vargmali 1955:Resnjari 1904:Skylax30 1878:Vargmali 1857:Skylax30 1832:Skylax30 1808:Skylax30 1802:Giovanni 1798:": "... 1632:Skylax30 1555:Skylax30 1536:this one 1475:225 hits 1399:276 hits 1390:127 hits 1377:English. 1237:Resnjari 1148:Kastriot 1122:Skylax30 1105:Resnjari 866:WP:CIVIL 681:Skylax30 633:Resnjari 534:Resnjari 517:Skylax30 495:Resnjari 451:Skylax30 419:Resnjari 322:Skylax30 3725:Liridon 3708:Borsoka 3266:18 hits 3227:11 hits 3219:16 hits 3211:21 hits 3141:12 hits 2981:Comment 2817:Support 2779:Apology 2724:Support 2654:. See 2580:endorse 2367:WP:GOOG 2359:WP:GNUM 2351:WP:GOOG 2232:WP:GNUM 2193:as per 2124:15 hits 2101:21 hits 2074:However 2034:] ---- 1994:. See 1978:Support 1845:Compare 1681:Gjergjs 1669:Comment 1621:propose 1370:support 1351:--: --> 1282:wbm1058 1187:Staniša 383:either. 266:Comment 39:archive 4065:Hioiim 3861:WP:RMT 3799:Spjall 3721:Oppose 3680:TU-nor 3502:enough 3498:TU-nor 3386:TU-nor 3274:4 hits 3235:4 hits 3181:8 hits 3149:7 hits 3133:6 hits 3125:6 hits 2771:Oppose 2704:Oppose 2682:Oppose 2638:– per 2614:bd2412 2399:TU-nor 2357:, not 2191:Oppose 2155:Oppose 2110:2 hits 2086:(talk) 2039:(talk) 2025:(talk) 1970:Oppose 1794:George 1746:, etc. 1689:Gjergj 1658:(talk) 1449:gives 1419:gives 1410:gives 1397:gives 1388:gives 1229:wp:SPA 1137:Ivanis 1101:wp:SPA 896:(talk) 888:TU-nor 870:WP:NPA 862:WP:AGF 760:(talk) 485:WP:SPA 377:Adolph 188:(1990) 82:Iuanus 3921:Read 3791:Frayæ 3651:Hidra 3173:1 hit 3165:1 hit 2739:Yuvan 2735:Јован 2644:WP:UE 2482:Jovan 2269:Ngram 1992:WP:UE 1847:with 1677:Gjons 1609:Agree 1595:Agree 1179:Repoš 1175:Georg 753:other 204:Jovan 16:< 4069:talk 4023:talk 4001:talk 3982:talk 3963:talk 3947:talk 3931:talk 3912:talk 3856:Done 3840:talk 3795:Talk 3778:talk 3770:Note 3729:talk 3712:talk 3688:talk 3670:talk 3641:ISBN 3613:talk 3594:talk 3565:talk 3548:talk 3540:have 3526:and 3510:talk 3465:talk 3432:talk 3394:talk 3377:talk 3360:talk 3330:talk 3293:talk 3285:that 3091:talk 3075:talk 3043:talk 2993:talk 2952:talk 2914:talk 2889:talk 2872:talk 2849:talk 2837:John 2806:talk 2783:Gion 2760:talk 2737:and 2713:talk 2693:talk 2652:John 2648:Gjon 2642:and 2574:was 2525:talk 2496:talk 2457:talk 2443:talk 2426:talk 2390:talk 2378:have 2325:talk 2212:talk 2181:talk 2173:Note 2163:talk 2136:talk 2078:lost 2064:does 1990:per 1959:talk 1934:talk 1908:talk 1882:talk 1861:talk 1836:talk 1812:talk 1768:talk 1691:and 1673:Pals 1636:talk 1582:talk 1559:talk 1517:talk 1500:talk 1345:talk 1286:talk 1241:talk 1205:talk 1171:Ivan 1167:Paul 1144:Ivan 1126:talk 1109:talk 1069:talk 983:talk 938:talk 929:Ivan 878:talk 844:Name 840:note 799:talk 724:talk 685:talk 658:talk 637:talk 606:talk 584:talk 553:talk 538:talk 521:talk 499:talk 473:talk 455:talk 423:talk 391:talk 381:Gjon 343:talk 326:talk 298:talk 278:talk 270:diff 246:talk 200:Ivan 161:Ivan 128:Ivan 86:Gjon 3957:.-- 3896:300 3875:ray 3869:Big 3814:. 3666:T*U 3544:T*U 3493:not 3373:T*U 3348:T*U 3289:T*U 3017:If 2910:T*U 2843:.-- 2540:. 2453:T*U 2439:T*U 2413:to 2386:T*U 2363:not 2228:T*U 2132:T*U 1984:to 1976:. 1825:: " 1611:to 1597:on 1578:T*U 1573:not 1540:our 1513:T*U 1496:T*U 1427:not 1339:). 1146:is 1024:or 995:are 979:T*U 963:are 874:T*U 202:or 179:... 4088:: 4075:) 4071:• 4025:) 4003:) 3984:) 3965:) 3949:) 3933:) 3914:) 3842:) 3801:) 3780:) 3731:) 3714:) 3690:) 3672:) 3648:. 3615:) 3596:) 3588:]. 3567:) 3550:) 3512:) 3467:) 3434:) 3424:me 3396:) 3379:) 3362:) 3332:) 3295:) 3093:) 3077:) 3045:) 2995:) 2987:. 2954:) 2916:) 2891:) 2874:) 2851:) 2808:) 2762:) 2715:) 2695:) 2632:→ 2595:. 2527:) 2498:) 2459:) 2445:) 2428:) 2405:. 2392:) 2384:-- 2327:) 2297:→ 2288:→ 2277:→ 2226:: 2214:) 2197:: 2183:) 2165:) 2138:) 2130:-- 2122:: 2108:: 2099:: 2070:dy 2048:— 2000:— 1961:) 1936:) 1910:) 1884:) 1863:) 1838:) 1828:.. 1814:) 1770:) 1730:, 1679:, 1675:, 1638:) 1626:→ 1615:→ 1601:→ 1584:) 1561:) 1519:) 1511:-- 1502:) 1347:) 1320:→ 1311:→ 1300:→ 1288:) 1261:. 1243:) 1207:) 1193:, 1185:, 1181:, 1177:, 1173:, 1169:, 1128:) 1111:) 1071:) 1049:— 1008:— 985:) 940:) 908:— 880:) 868:, 864:, 855:is 801:) 726:) 687:) 660:) 639:) 608:) 586:) 555:) 540:) 523:) 501:) 475:) 457:) 425:) 393:) 345:) 328:) 300:) 280:) 248:) 226:— 223:). 206:: 182:— 144:— 107:— 88:: 4067:( 4021:( 3999:( 3980:( 3961:( 3945:( 3929:( 3910:( 3877:ᗙ 3873:X 3867:D 3838:( 3797:/ 3793:( 3776:( 3727:( 3710:( 3686:( 3668:( 3611:( 3592:( 3563:( 3546:( 3508:( 3463:( 3430:( 3392:( 3375:( 3358:( 3328:( 3318:. 3291:( 3089:( 3073:( 3041:( 3035:: 3031:@ 2991:( 2950:( 2912:( 2887:( 2870:( 2847:( 2804:( 2791:: 2787:@ 2758:( 2741:. 2711:( 2691:( 2621:T 2582:. 2523:( 2494:( 2476:. 2455:( 2441:( 2424:( 2388:( 2339:. 2323:( 2317:: 2313:@ 2210:( 2179:( 2161:( 2134:( 1957:( 1932:( 1906:( 1880:( 1859:( 1834:( 1810:( 1782:. 1766:( 1760:: 1756:@ 1634:( 1605:. 1580:( 1557:( 1515:( 1498:( 1458:/ 1360:. 1343:( 1284:( 1239:( 1219:. 1203:( 1124:( 1107:( 1097:: 1093:@ 1083:. 1067:( 981:( 952:. 936:( 876:( 813:. 797:( 787:. 738:. 722:( 683:( 656:( 650:: 646:@ 635:( 629:: 625:@ 620:. 604:( 598:: 594:@ 582:( 576:: 572:@ 567:. 551:( 536:( 519:( 497:( 471:( 453:( 421:( 415:: 411:@ 405:. 389:( 357:: 353:@ 341:( 324:( 312:. 296:( 276:( 260:. 244:( 50:.

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