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1235:...it's clear this needs to be sorted out on talk. It's the previous sentence that established the error margin of GMT as being around one second; for non-digital applications this actually is precise, hence my edit. I can see the case for my edit as being SYNTH, which is why I suggested adding a note that actually quotes the relevant source. However, I don't have access to that article: could someone provide the relevant passage? With this, assuming the content doesn't run completely against my expectations, I would be able to propose a revised sentence together with clarifying note that I hope would satisfy everyone. â
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actual mean solar time at
Greenwich could differ from GMT as reported by the BBC (and NPL), by up to 0.9s? On past experience, hacking that opening sentence is a surefire way to get bogged down. So yes, starting from a different beginning along the lines you propose might well solve the problem. I suggest you post a draft here for discussion. --
685:, in fact it has never even been discussed there. Unless a source is self-evidently unreliable, individual editors should seek consensus there before declaring it such. The second is HM Nautical Almanac Office, which is as reliable as they come, though arguably it only cites the first half of the sentence.
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20:18, 4 November 2021â John
Maynard Friedman talk contribsâ 18,587 bytes â7â Undid revision 1053528528 by Chalst (talk) rv good faith but please argue it on the talk page. More specifically, if the source doesn't say "to the second", we can't use it as a citation. So let the original stand until you
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the local clock time at
Greenwich. That's only true in winter, not summer. The phrase "international standard of civil time" suggests the whole world used GMT directly as local time. But of course they didn't; those responsible for disseminating time added or subtracted the appropriate offset to GMT
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GMT stands for
Greenwich Mean Time, the local clock time at Greenwich. From 1884 until 1972, GMT was the international standard of civil time. Though it has now been replaced by Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), GMT is still the legal time in Britain in the winter, used by the Met Office, Royal Navy
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The difference between GMT+x and UTC+x is that first is done using a different meridian than the other and also that UTC has insane delta T calculations for leap seconds. Why does it matter when it was calculated from? They also did not have atomic clock in every GNSS sattelite back then, now they
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It is a real minefield because some readers have difficulty accepting that it no longer has the status it once had and because "the popular press" tends to use it a synonym for UT. So to find a way to write it that is not seen as pettifogging detail is not going to be easy. How do we say that the
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14:02, 4 November 2021â Chalst talk contribsâ 18,594 bytes +7â Reverted revision 1053527773 by Jc3s5h (talk) - thanks for catching the typo. I don't think fidelity to the source is more important if we can uncontroversially be more accurate with being verbose. If you are really bothered about the
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To my mind, the biggest problem with referring to GMT as a standard, is that you can't use it as a standard. For example, at some times it was calculated from noon, at others from midnight. The definition of GMT has changed many times; so if you find a citation a historical time in GMT, you can't
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As far as I can tell, the community of time scientists and time authorities don't use the term "standard reference time", at least not in any uniform way. I would call both UT1 and UTC "time scales" and I would call specific sources, such as the GPS satellite constellation, radio station CHU, and
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About time zones: in my mind, a time zone is a package that includes the offset from UTC, whether or not summer time is observed, what dates the winter/summer change occurs, what law or regulation established the time zone, what the authority that established the time zone calls it, and what the
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does not support the claim that GMT is a time zone. Indeed, one could argue that the only time zone that officially uses GMT, the
British Isles, doesn't seem to have a well known name, but observes two different time scales in different parts of the year: GMT in winter and British Summer Time in
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In the United
Kingdom, Greenwich Mean Time has been identified with the civil time or Coordinated Universal Time, UTC (§ 6.8.3.1). This connection, however, has never been formalized, so using GMT to refer to UTC should be done with care. For navigation, however, Green Mean Time has meant UT1 (§
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In the United
Kingdom, Greenwich Mean Time has been identified with the civil time or Coordinated Universal Time (§ 6.8.3.1). This connection, however, has never been formalized, so using GMT to refer to UTC should be done with care. For navigation, however, Greenwich Mean Time has meant UT1 (§
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Although not mentioned by Hilton & McCarthy, a reason to avoid the "to-the-second" phrase is that there are serious international discussions in progress about eliminating leap seconds in civil time, so that the difference between UTC and UT1 would grow. This would leave the article more
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UTC+00:00 is the overview topic, GMT is one of the aspects of it but in addition has historical significance that other local designations (like
Mountain Time) do not. The extent of generic material that belonged in the UTC+00:00 article waa beginning to swamp the specific stuff.
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Yes, if the RMG text were on
Knowledge (XXG), it would drown in a sea of 'citation needed' and 'clarify' tags. But it is appropriate for its intended audience: just a pity that HM Nautical Almanac Office wasn't being so coy. I'll change it to "international basis of civil time".
714:@JMF, I'm a notorious pedant. As far as I'm concerned personally, GMT doesn't exist any more. I find it's use on BBC World Service intensely irritating; "Four Greenwich Mean Time", as they usually say, is at best idiosyncratic. It seems nativist, nationalistic, and jingoistic.
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I too found sources that say that GMT can't be used without qualification and others saying that it is used routinely in navigation without reservations. I tried a few weeks back to resolve but failed and largely let it stand. If you can crack it, you have my support and
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Whilst you are correct about persistent 'custom and practice', it is surely correct to say that GMT is not a standard reference time (even though used as such, indeed the article specifically mentions seafarers' continued use). HM Nautical
Almanac Office says
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As of 20:10 GMT last night, the disruptive edit to the file on Commons has been reverted and the image on Commons is now showing Crimea correctly. However, as of now, Knowledge (XXG) hasn't caught up. If it is still wrong this evening, I will chase.
566:. The edit revised the article to indicate that "Greenwich Mean Time" these days always means the time zone UTC and it is always incorrect to use it to refer to UT1. But the sources indicate its meaning is ambiguous. For example the article says
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In any case, GMT is sort of a time zone, but it also is a name for UT, UT1 and UTC which persists in international use despite the wishes of time authorities. (Yes, I know UT1 and UTC are different. But people sometimes call both of them GMT.)
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I agree with your three points of certainty, but I'm not sure what to do with them given that we may only reflect reliable sources (which is what I thought I had done). And of course, reflect the world as it is and not what it 'should' be.
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UK law considers GMT to be the lawful time in the UK in winter, and provides financial support to various technical organs of government that disseminate GMT that matches, as closely as possible with modern science, GMT that matches
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In the first sentence, GMT is defined as "mean solar time". However, GMT is based on UTC which is in turn based on the International Atomic Time that is only loosely kept in sync with solar time using the addition of leap seconds.
1024:.) So true none of them says what it is not (probably because it was, until 50 years ago). So what? Or, more practically, can the sentence be rephrased to avoid saying something we know not to be true (even if widely believed). --
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I think it should be better to start the article with the explanation that there are multiple (historical) definitions of GMT and then continue to explain them further, because I think that in its current form it's confusing.
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But I still believe that the transfer of UTC+00:00 content made sense and it does so even more now in that this article is no longer cluttered with that content, leaving nowhere left to hide for the erroneous explanations.
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My first thought is that if a statement is supported by a source, one should read the source before editing the statement. If one does not have the source and feels the statement is inadequate, one should obtain a
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That is *not* desireable - we'd then end up with two versions of UTC - before the change, and after the change. That would render UTC as confusing as GMT. When you change a standard, you should also choose a new
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so it seems to me that, rather than the questionable "standard reference time", we can use their "international standard of civil time" and we have a highly reliable source to cite in support. Would that work?
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I wouldn't say Buckle is an unreliable source, but among the wide variety of sources expressing differing opinions on this, she is less reliable than several others. The glossary for the
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I admit to being surprised by your reversion: I thought I had reflected our discussion accurately. What did I write that was "factually incorrect"? Can you provide an alternative text?
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1006:"Although GMT and UTC share the same current time in practice, there is a basic difference between the two:" ... "GMT is a time zone and UTC is a time standard." - TimeAndDate.com
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Eliminating leap-seconds in civil time is a laudable goal. But my understanding is that the ITU has been discussing (for more than a decade) eliminating leap-seconds from UTC.
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13:56, 4 November 2021â Jc3s5h talk contribsâ 18,587 bytes â2â Undid revision 1053526091 by Chalst (talk). Ungrammatical, and further from language in source. Tag: Undo
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and BBC World Service. Greenwich Mean Time is also the name of the time zone used by some countries in Africa and Western Europe, including in Iceland all year round.
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1015:"On 1 January 1972, GMT as the international civil time standard was superseded by Coordinated Universal Time (UTC)," - already in this article, but no citation (!)
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Since there is no clear definition of what GMT is, we can't say it isn't the basis of international civil time; for those who use GMT as a synonym for UTC, it is.
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It's also silly to claim that there is a precise meaning (purportedly UTC) and at the same time say it can it can't be used for purposes that require precision.
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I'm perfectly happy with your revert. Sometimes I make an edit to provoke discussion. Usually no discussion ensues, but it seems to have this time!
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and belongs in that article, not this one. I guess the problem arises because older editors still use the term GMT with world-wide application?
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RMG may be a reliable source in general, but this passage is rather loosely worded. For example, the lead sentence, the first sentence says GMT
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GMT is defined today as UTC+00:00 and no longer by the transit of the sun. Thus the term GMT cannot be used for purposes that require precision.
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Greenwich Mean Time is also the name of the time zone used by some countries in Africa and Western Europe, including in Iceland all year round.
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If you want to determine the interval between two historical times given as simply "GMT", good luck with that. You'll just have to guess.
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and the RMG citation added as a third source? Perhaps not too strangely, I can't find any RS that takes this flag waving seriously. --
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6.8.3). Thus GMT has two meanings that can differ by as much as 0.9 s, and the term GMT should not be used for precise purposes.
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Yes, it is difficult to resolve this without bogged down in the nature of time as an abstract concept. The full RMG text reads:
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6.8.3). Thus, GMT has two meanings that can differ by as much as , and the term GMT should not be used for precise purposes.
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Various people around the world may refer to GMT when intending UTC, or UT1, or while being ignorant of the distinction.
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There are two citations: the first (TimeAndDate.com) is certainly a commercial undertaking but it is not listed at
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inhabitants of the zone call it. Do Icelanders call their time zone GMT? How about those governments in Africa?
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Since it seems to be a bit of a controversial topic, I'd like to discuss it on this talk page first. Pinging
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Technically true in detail, but in practice irrelevant in its effect on the huge majority of people. Per
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accurately determine what time is being referred to, without also stating which version of GMT you mean.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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as a fellow editor who does a lot work on this article recently. Please let me know what you think.
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radio station WWV, implementations of the UTC time scale. GMT is many things, which is the problem.
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do! The fact of the matter GMT is UTC+0 now, while GMT+0 IS NOT UTC+0, they are some time apart.
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Article had become clogged with off- (GMT)-topic material about the overall time zone UTC+00:00
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975:, we have a reliable source that uses the words I wrote, and we should reflect that. --
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territory and too far off-topic for this article. But the issue has been discussed at
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Yes, I saw that and tried previously to resolve it. It was I who added the footnote
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I've been bold and done a big cleanup of off-topic material that is really about
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If there is a more convincing justification for the bold edit, let's see it. --
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Put it back to the internationally recognised EET not the illegal occupiers.
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So would you be content if the wording were changed to use the construction
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boldly deleted, and I reverted per BRD, the second part of this statement:
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All say that it has been supplanted by UTC as the basis for civil time. (
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but let's resolve the principle first before getting into this detail.
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Now showing correctly. If you are still getting the old version, use
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to find the local time. Perhaps "international basis of civil time"?
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to read as saying that GMT it not a formal time reference any longer.
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I think that makes GMT a perfect example of "not a standard".
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https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Time_Zones_of_Europe.svg
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UT ... loosely, mean solar time on the Greenwich meridian (
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distinction, why not add a quote in a note? Tag: Reverted
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As for the time zone aspect, Royal Museums Greenwich says
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I can't find a source that says GMT is not a /whatever/.
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There is a case to reword the phrase slightly to say
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The reason given in the edit note is "that is not a
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242:written in
150:free images
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1497:Categories
1137:28 October
587:References
1472:WP:BYPASS
789:UTC±00:00
786:time zone
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312:is rated
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564:bad edit
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29:article.
1217:my edit
744:summer.
512:on the
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