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635:, "We want to maximize the likelihood of being listed in external search engines, thereby attracting more people to Knowledge (XXG). For example, the pagename is Jimmy Carter and not "James Earl Carter, Jr."; the string "Jimmy Carter" in the page title make it easier to find:...", and ,"When choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of the Knowledge (XXG) put into the search engine?"
490:(By the way, it's ironic that you removed the sentence about Lekhraj preaching the Bhagavad Gita and preforming Ras Lila, which was referenced from the same book (it's clearly mentioned in the book). But, you're presenting the same book as reference to prove that BKWSU lied about Lekhraj's birth year -- something that's not even mentioned in the book.)
686:. Each conversation thread I linked to either hangs or is answered without really addressing the points I raised. I don't mind if I turn out to be wrong on this one, just as long as I finally understand why. If different policies and guidelines apply to the use of names in the body of the discussion then what are they? Certainly when
639:
Certainly, no literature from the BKs would refer to "Kripalani", nor do any of the reliable sources or books such as
Walliss so anyone searching would most likely search for "Dada Lekhraj" just as they would search for "Sai Baba" and not his real name, "Sathyanarayana Raju". Certainly "Baba" is also
499:
by B. K. Jagdish
Chander states "Some amongst them were young when they had seen Baba as man of little over fifty-five when he founded the Om Mandali" (p. 73). You can interpret "little over" in various ways and come up with another birth year. Say, if his age was between 55 and 56, one can speculate
468:
A forum member says that the list is dated 1939, so the birth year is 1885. Then another poster says that the list is dated 1938, and states that "This shows
Kripalani's date of birth was 1884...". The same poster than points out Hardy's book and speculates that he might have been the ghost writer of
479:
As for
Hardayal Hardy's book, where does it mention the year 1938 while speaking about Lekhraj's age? It doesn't say that Lekhraj was about 54 years old when he founded the Om Mandali or when the court case was filed. It says that when Lekhraj bought a house and settled in Hyderabad, he was about 54
321:
i will attach a copy of the full text, you may delete it if you wish..........excuse the formal style ,but if i have to assert my credibility in comparison to the constant attacks and allegation , then i would like to do so fairly...............i think we will also find out that Is this
Justice? was
899:
Your personal problems are not concerning me. Be stable in Drama. You are changing meaning to suit
Brahmkumaris' version not to follow accurate knowledge. Agyani souls might be fooled but not gyani soul. You need studying Advance Knowledge, Shivbaba's Murli Clarifications at God Fatherly University
462:
Then, somebody starts discussion on the Om Radhe book. I managed to get access to this book and read it -- there is a list of Om
Mandali Members in the book, which mentions the age of Lekhraj Kripalani as 54 (p. 154). The book is dated 1939. I couldn't find any statement that dates the list, but it
792:
of a Chief
Justice refer to "Dada Lekhraj". Knowledge (XXG) will be setting a new precedent by referring to him throughout as "Kripalani". Although the main issue, as far as I am concerned, is the article body text, I am also suggesting that the article be named according to his most known name,
317:
According to 'Inflation: the value of the pound 1750-2002', 2003 by
Grahame Allen Econmic Policy and Statistics Section of the House of Commons Library, the purchasing power of a pound in 2002 compared to the pound in 1930 was 40.2 times (comparing a current price index of 695.1 to 17.3). So, an
282:
The problem with the recent bibliography, is that academics have all depended on facts, figures and a version of the history as given by the Brahma
Kumaris themselves. Primarily from the hagiography (biography idealizing its subject) of Lekhraj Kripalani called Adi Dev by one of his financially
416:
It's clear that none of these books explicitly state that the birth year is 1884. Out of the three books that you talk about, I've read two -- I managed to get access to the Om Radhe book, and I've also read the relevant portion of the book authored by Hardayal Hardy. I couldn't find
292:"Another case I did involved Dada Lekhraj Kripalani of Hyderabad who owned a jewellery shop in Calcutta. He sold his shop and returned to Hyderabad with approximately Rs 10 lakhs as his assets. He bought a house and settled there. Dada Lekhraj was about 54 years old."
878:
Since the edit involves an indef blocked user who is in dispute with me, I am waiting one week for outside comments from uninvolved editors before making the changes. Both me and the blocked editor have COI. For further details about my COI see my user page.
86:
i challenge the use of Dada Lekhraj as , by comparison, it would be a little like having a page on Josef Stalin title "Uncle Joe".........sorry bad example i know.........dada was not his name..........in engligh it is a bit like saying "uncle lekhraj"
623:
I'm still not clear on the need to refer to "Kripalani" throughout the article. Could you please indicate what policy or guideline supports the rationale, "we do not use terms of endearment or devotion to refer to the subject, we use their last name".
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that explicitly states the birth year as 1884 (as opposed to several books that clearly mention the birth year as 1876). The fact that the allegation comes from a forum post on an anti-BKWSU site helps little. Given the situation, 1876 seems quite
551:
you have not read the book carefully enough , its is possible to date exactly by the correspondence between Om Mandli and mr Tauton in which it is referred to........its 1938 . Hardy was acting as Kripalani's advocate at this time....
562:
if as an atheist you do not know the organization , you will not understand the significance of this and why the Bkwsu is trying to re-write their history and his age , there is no point trying to confuse the issue to win your point
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So, now we have {1878, 1880-81, 1884, 1885, 1886 or 1887-88} purely based on speculations -- there is still not a single reference that mentions the birth year as "1884". (By the way, Chander's book also mentions a title called
566:
it all has to do witht he channelled messages from God through their mediums that said God entered his chosen medium when the age of his body was 60 years old........this is the source of the problem , Kripalani was not 60
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and called Shiva; that it continued to be channeled via Kripalani and others acting as mediums until his death in 1969 by heart attack,". I suggest reverting back to the previous more neutral version...."Adherents of the
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I might not have expertise in the topic, but the authors I've cited above clearly have. Your edits are clearly original research -- neither the Om Radhe book, nor the Hardayal Hardy source states the birth year as
558:
given that it was written as the events unfolded and during his lifetime by his partner , i think we can accept it as the reliable version . it was jagdish chander in a 1970s hagiography that wrote 55............
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At this point, we have different posters on an anti-BKWSU site, speculating that Lekhraj's birth year was 1884, 1885, 1886 or 1887-88, and it was falsified by the Brahma Kumaris to coincide with their predictions.
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Utcursch.........look, if a book is dated 1938 or if a document in a book is clearly dated 1938 and its says his age is 54 it is neither original reseasrch nor rocket science to say his date of birth is 1884.
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I take to the time to copy this out to emphasise the difference in the manner you work and the exactitude I work. In July 1938, Kripalani was aged 54, as confirmed by his advocate of the time at a later
289:
If you look at the actual text of "Struggles and Sorrows; The Personal Testimony of a Chief Justice" by Justice Hardayal Hardy (p 37 to 39) rather than depending on google snippets, you will read;
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you can download it from brahmakumaris.info in full or can find copies of it in libraries and other public resources. just becaue you did not try hard enough does not exclude it as a source
295:
This was in 1938. As Justice Hardy was not only Lekhraj Kripalani's counsel but went on to be the Chief Justice of India, I think we can consider his work to be reliable and authoritative.
847:
No need to say "Founding Medium" in the bio. The template says "Founder". His role as a "medium" is covered elsewhere in the article. Adding it in the bio adds undue weight to the fact.
398:
There are 3 sources of this. Hardy who was his lawyer written in the 1980s, Radhe who was his number two collaborator in the 30s and Chander who was his chief spokesman in the 1970s
844:
The date, 1884, is not supported by the majority of reliable sources. This was discussed exhaustively on a previous occasion on this same talk page between Green108 and Utcursch.
379:
I've no problem with the millionaire issue -- that's irrelevant to the article, as Lekhraj's claim to fame is not being a millionaire or being among the Top Ten Richest Indians.
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However, based on 'Britain and the Indian Currency Crisis, 1930-2': A Comment Carl Bridge from The Economic History Review, New Series, Vol. 34, No. 2 (May, 1981), pp. 301-304;
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after his death they gradually when into re-write mode and all the modern academics have copied the PR version of their history , it all has to do with the dispute with their
657:
applies to the title of the article. As long as the article is titled as it is, it is correct to follow the title. If you believe the title should be changed, please follow
279:
Excuse me for saying, but this is another example of where, if you have no expertise in the topic, you really ought to err on the side of caution and discuss changes first.
80:
this is factual erroneous and i think you will find it difficult to substantiate against even the Bkwsus own material ,,what is your actual knowledge of this organisation?
788:. The page describes the founder of a religious institution in India. All the secondary references, and even primary references such as records of court documents and the
448:
Then another comment says that an article published in the Hindi BK Magazine 'Gyanamrit' (dated February, 1986) mentions, "Brahma Baba's age was 50 years in 1936." (
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Is this justice? Being an account of the founding of the Om Mandli & the Om Nivas and their suppression, by application of the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1908
101:
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Now, another poster cites a Brahma Kumari book, which says that Lekhraj was "was about 55 or rather nearing sixtieth", when he started getting visions.
443:
The first poster says that according to the PBKs, "Brahma Baba attained the age of 60 only around 1947/48" -- that would make the birth year 1887-88.
318:
estate of 75,000 Pounds then would be worth about 3 Million Pounds now. A lot but not enough to make him one of Indian's richest man at that time.
850:
The following paragraph has been gratuitously POV'd up...", although there is no evidence in early documentation to support this. Since 1950, the
515:
I am no sympathizer of BKWSU, and I am not saying that there is no possibility of the Brahma Kumaris falsifying the birth year (in fact, as an
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4 July 1938, " Enclosed please find the list of Om Mandlie members and guardians of the childreen living in Om Nivas." Signed Om Radhe.
796:
The proposed move is actually to return the page to it's original name. It was moved to "Lekhraj Kripalani" without seeking consensus.
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2 July 1938, "Please let me have the list of members of the Mandli and the guardians of the children in the Om Nivas School".
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years old. According to the Om Radhe book, this happened in 1932 (p. 3) -- that would mean his birth year is around 1878.
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I've reverted the year to 1876 in absence of any valid sources that state the birth year at 1884. I would suggest we seek
238:
Also, I doubt that the Om Radhe book actually mentions his birth year. The "1884" source seems to be a forum thread from
874:
the article should also refer to him as the name by which he was commonly known in and after which the article is named.
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OK, I'm requesting the page move as suggested. I will also allow one week for any further discussion regarding the page
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Founder father is God Shiva. Medium is Lekhraj aka Brahma Baba. Age is not accurate according to advanced knowledge.
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Chander actually said 55 whereas the two others sad 54 but the actual age would depend on which month of his birth was
38:
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The Om Radhe citation was based on a forum post on an anti-BKWSU site, while the above analysis by you is clearly
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Additionally, we have a precise valuation of his wealth at 10 lahk Rupees, Is this correct, I equate that to be;
519:, I believe that all religious movements have a knack for falsifying information). But the entire allegation is
127:
The reference for "1884" birth years is a single book published in 1938-39 book which seems to be out of print (
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certainly belongs to the period 1936-39 (which means if this is not a typo, Lekhraj's birth year is 1882-85).
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So, we can add one more year to the list of speculations -- now we've {1878, 1884, 1885, 1886 or 1887-88}.
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and that it continued to be channeled via Kripalani and others acting as medium until his death in 1969".
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I'd like to clear this up in principal with regards to the text body before suggesting a page move.
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I was wrong, it was not the Collector Taunton, it was U.M. Mirchandani the District Magistrate
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135:). There's no way of verifying this book which is not available anywhere (including Amazon).
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I don't really know whether BKWSU is lying or not, but published sources are certainly more
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1,500,000 Shillings or 75,000 Pounds (12 Pence to the Shilling, 20 Shillings to the Pound)
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793:"Dada Lekhraj", since that is most likely to be used as a search term to find this page.
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i wont argue that Kripalani is notable enough but shouldn't the page be in his own name?
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1 rupee = 1s 6d september in 1931 and inflation remained within 1% for the ensuing years
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edit. Most of it is sound, such as filling in more bio details, with a few exceptions.
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357:. The book doesn't mention the birth year as 1884 (as per the text provided by you at
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On the other hand there are at least four books, which state the birth year as 1876:
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New Religions in Global Perspective: A Study of Religious Change in the Modern World
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but thanks for the good work on the citation , i did not know how to lay them out
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i flagged up on the BKWSU page this the om mandli was not actually the committee
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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
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if you still intend to change the birth year to 1884 without original research.
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It is also an example of the problem in relying on internet based research.
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Like I said earlier, if there are still any issues, I am always open to
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to allow broad consideration from the whole Knowledge (XXG) community.
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by B. K. Jagdish Chander, but I found another book by the same author (
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Talk:Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University#om_mandli_as_a_committee
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created this article he used the name "Dada Lekhraj" throughout
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you are making erroneous and misleading statements here, sorry
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Hi IPSOS. Good to see you back. I trust you had a good break.
228:. Also, several other sources mention the birth year as 1876:
25:
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Religions in the Modern World: Traditions and Transformations
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Devotional Literature in South Asia: Current Research, 1985-8
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Would appreciate if you could explain. Thanks & regards
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not written by om radhe as well ,but that is for another day
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Nowe ruchy religijne i parareligijne w Polsce: mały słownik
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I've moved the page per the unopposed request. Cheers. -
430:
This age falsifying debate is interesting, but lacks any
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I'd really appreciate finally clearing this up. Regards
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54 years old", to which you've added "This was in 1938."
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Unhay san 1936 may, jabki unki 50 varsh kee aayu thi...
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On the life and teachings of Dada Lekharaj 1876-1968
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http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Lekhraj_Kripalani/Hardy
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1,000,000 rupees; So, he was a "rupee millionaire".
145:Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction
523:based on speculations, and there is not a single
452:). So, accordingly, the birth age must be 1886.
133:. The Phermacy Printing Press, Karachi. p. 154.
434:. The debate seems to have originated from a
8:
402:which of these books have you actually read?
361:). The author simply says "Dada Lekhraj was
283:supported followers named Jagdish Chander.
854:again claims that this being is, in fact,
836:I would like to propose some changes to a
653:We went through all this before, I think.
249:than a forum post on an anti-BKWSU site.
242:that tries to project BKWSU as liars.
183:. Cambridge University Press. p. 302.
44:Do not edit the contents of this page.
784:Proposal to rename page according to
679:I remember going through this before
500:that the birth year was 1880 or 1881.
7:
693:and also made the correction to the
627:From my side I found the following,
147:. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. p. 120.
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340:Knowledge (XXG):Original research
179:Macgregor, Ronald Stuart (1992).
497:A Brief Biography of Brahma Baba
423:A Brief Biography of Brahma Baba
29:
801:15:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
747:15:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
726:15:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
671:12:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
648:11:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
535:third-party dispute resolution
161:Clarke, Peter Bernard (2006).
1:
224:These books can be viewed at
359:Talk:Lekhraj Kripalani/Hardy
863:believe that this being is
824:04:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
811:01:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
768:15:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
599:Lekhrak Kriapalani aged 54
930:
914:00:28, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
372:further dispute resolution
900:to be understanding. See
608:15:41, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
578:15:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
546:16:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
411:10:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
388:05:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
327:18:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
270:10:14, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
258:13:22, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
143:Hunt, Stephen J. (2003).
117:13:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
95:12:03, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
892:12:02, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
215:Doktór, Tadeusz (1999).
197:Woodhead, Linda (2002).
583:Lekhraj Kripalani's Age
100:Please see my reply at
700:and discussed it here
640:a term of endearment.
555:1938 minus 54 is 1884
438:on brahmakumaris.info.
419:Adi Dev: The first man
165:. Routledge. p. 248.
42:of past discussions.
201:. Routledge. p. 31.
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226:Google Boook Search
240:brahmakumaris.info
219:. Verbinum. p. 37.
129:Radhe, Om (1938).
902:http://pbks.info/
521:original research
355:original research
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48:current talk page
18:Talk:Dada Lekhraj
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832:Proposed changes
469:Om Radhe's book.
432:reliable sources
275:Birth Year reply
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123:Birth year
808:GTBacchus
688:Utcursch
495:The book
73:Om Mandli
61:Archive 1
884:Bksimonb
882:Regards
821:Bksimonb
798:Bksimonb
765:Bksimonb
744:Bksimonb
723:Bksimonb
697:article
645:Bksimonb
605:Green108
575:Green108
539:utcursch
408:Green108
381:utcursch
324:Green108
267:Green108
251:utcursch
247:reliable
110:utcursch
92:Green108
870:As per
790:memoirs
517:atheist
348:"1884".
39:archive
861:BKWSU
852:BKWSU
763:Done
695:BKWSU
663:IPSOS
631:From
363:about
235:etc.
16:<
910:talk
888:talk
838:this
740:body
667:talk
616:Name
603:date
572:AIVV
543:talk
385:talk
331:see
255:talk
203:ISBN
185:ISBN
167:ISBN
149:ISBN
114:talk
106:diff
916:).
865:God
856:God
108:).
912:)
890:)
669:)
541:|
537:.
510:).
425:).
383:|
253:|
112:|
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886:(
703:.
665:(
342:.
210:.
192:.
174:.
156:.
104:(
50:.
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