1052:"Herbert Smith was born in the village of Bradley, near Skipton, on 1st May 1889, his father being the Chief Accounts Clerk with the railway at Bradford and his brother becoming a local bank manager. He attended the local primary school and later went onto the Keighley Grammar School. On leaving school his education took a more scientific turn when he enrolled at the Bradford Technical College to study Mechanical Engineering. In his class he was one of the three students who were able to qualify for their Diplomas. After his studies were completed Herbert took a job to gain practical experience joining Dean, Smith and Grace of Keighley, a firm making machine tools who are still very much in business today. From there he sought design and drawing office experience with Smith, Major and Stephens who manufactured lifts in Northampton. Having acquired a sound basic training in various aspects of mechanical engineering, Herbert then became involved in the world of aircraft manufacture. He secured a place as a draughtsman with the Bristol Aeroplane Co., at Bristol, working under Capt. Frank Barnwell and M. Henri Coanda, until 1914, when he moved across to Sopwith Aviation, at Kingston-upon-Thames, as leading draughtsman."
1146:
School. On leaving school his education took a more scientific turn when he enrolled at the
Bradford Technical College to study Mechanical Engineering. In his class he was one of the three students who were able to qualify for their Diplomas. After his studies were completed Herbert took a job to gain practical experience joining Dean, Smith and Grace of Keighley, a firm making machine tools who are still very much in business today. From there he sought design and drawing office experience with Smith, Major and Stephens who manufactured lifts in Northampton. Having acquired a sound basic training in various aspects of mechanical engineering, Herbert then became involved in the world of aircraft manufacture. He secured a place as a draughtsman with the Bristol Aeroplane Co., at Bristol, working under Capt. Frank Barnwell and M. Henri Coanda, until 1914, when he moved across to Sopwith Aviation, at Kingston-upon-Thames, as leading draughtsman.'
1057:
Sopwith
Aviation, having previously worked for Bristol Aeroplane then these articles are talking about the same person. As a methodical statistician I wouldn't discount this possibility but even without examining the records of Bradford Technical College (assuming the appropriate records still exist) I would suggest that the probability of this is very, very low. Therefore and perhaps it's more an edit for the article on Smith than DSG but something along the lines of
225:
675:
unlikely to be a reasonably accurate secondary source. To attempt the assertion that ‘This exactly matches the text from the (1960) source’ shows the depth of your naiveté and demonstrates the (low) level of historical narrative the
Knowledge (XXG) are prepared to tolerate. If you do indeed ‘think we can be safe in the knowledge that there is only one Herbert, and this is he’, do not include me among the ‘we’.
938:
one side you have someone with a close connection to the company and a friendship with Sir Thomas
Sopwith such that he wrote a paper for the IME on the company and, on the other side, you have an article in Flight written from personal conversation with Herbert Smith. Neither journal is a peer reviewed academic journal so you can draw whatever conclusions you want about their veracity or reliability.
401:
377:
649:....joining Dean, Smith & Grace of Keighley, a firm making machine tools who are still very much in business today. From there he sought design and drawing office experiencewith Smith, Major & Stephens who manufactured lifts in Northampton. Having acquired a sound basic training in various aspects of mechanical engineering, Herbert then became involved in the world of aircraft manufacture.
411:
50:
178:
106:
81:
92:
21:
116:
1040:"Herbert Smith took a Diploma in Engineering at the Bradford Technical College, then spent three years in a workshop and one year in a drawing office before joining the Bristol Aeroplane Company as a draughtsman. He transferred to the Sopwith Company in March 1914, also as a draughtsman, and was there until their liquidation in October 1920."
1249:, I am trying as hard as I can to be civil, co-operative and communicative. I don't think I've ever done or written anything combative or impolite to you - if I have inadvertently caused offence, I apologise. Please could we see if we can work together for the benefit of the article and the encyclopaedia as a whole?
1331:
and I can't see that the url to the google books result has ever been included. Please check for yourself from the article history page. As to the relevant material from Flight and Air
Pictorial, you now have both the sections and where they come from. I leave it to you, as the qualified historian,
1289:
This is truly outrageous behaviour and I both deplore and resent it. The original link to
Journal of the Air League of the British Empire 37: 228 is no longer there. It now points to a Knowledge (XXG) article. I applaud your dedication in actually finding the full article, but what is your motive for
1124:
is a renowned publication in the aviation business, it has to be or it wouldn't still be going and I'm certainly not suggesting that
Macmillan is a "tabloid hack" but I would suggest there has to be some acceptance that Macmillan may have left out information which he thought would be of little or no
1100:
Thanks Nthep, I agree with you that this material really has more to say about
Herbert Smith than DSG, and perhaps deserves more emphasis on his page. But I do think that a notable former employee is a useful, minor addition to the article. For myself I'd be satisfied with the addition as you word it
937:
Without taking sides in this, the Air
Pictorial article was written by Squadron Leader John Crampton DFC AFC & Bar MRAeS, a former senior manager with Hawkers who among other things presented a history of the company from Sopwith to Hawker Siddeley to the Institute of Mechanical Engineers. So on
908:
You may not assert that 'the unnamed engineering firm cited in
Macmillan was in fact DSG'. Macmillan does not mention Dean Smith and Grace. The other source, which you emerely assume is an Air Pictorial article, is anonymous. You do not know with any certainly what it is. I disagree entirely and I am
894:
The Air Pictorial article is clearly and fully cited, and specifically mentions DSG by name. (Same sequence of engineering firm, draughtsman's position, Sopwith in both. Same man - named in both aThis confirms that the unnamed engineering firm cited in Macmillan was in fact DSG.s Herbert Smith.) Air
638:
Herbert Smith took a Diploma in Engineering at the Bradford Technical College, then spent three years in a workshop and one year in a drawing office before joining the Bristol Aeroplane Company as a draughtsman. He transferred to the Sopwith Company in March 1914, also as a draughtsman, and was there
545:
The article on Dean, Smith and Grace still has no substance and it is very unlikely that it will attract sufficient interest from historians capable of expanding it in any meaningful way. This is especially true now that the article’s solitary graphic has been removed by the Knowledge (XXG) deletion
744:
Firstly. the reason why citing a document requires its location: if its online that means its ful url, and if its not on line, the address of the building, the room , the shelf, the box is simple. If it's not available to provide verification, its probably bogus. Otherwise knowledge would be merely
711:
Even an undergraduate knows about reliable sources and triangulation. Even a science undergraduate knows about reliable and un-reliable data. Any reasonably intelligent O-level student knows that one cannot believe things simply because they are printed in newspapers and magazines. In any case, the
1304:
I'm sorry I got the wrong end of the stick, you didn't specify which external link you were meaning. As everything I contribute at the moment seems to be having the reverse of my intended effect (attempts at reconciliation causing outrage!) I'll cease and desist here for a while. I do see that you
1266:
I don't think the google books link to Air Pictorial has ever been in the article. I didn't insert it because I think that the snippet views are unhelpful. As you say, Weiterbewegung, they aren't specific enough to enable sensible conclusions to be reached and can easily allow the reader to draw
1145:
Right, lets look at:' Herbert Smith was born in the village of Bradley, near Skipton, on 1st May 1889, his father being the Chief Accounts Clerk with the railway at Bradford and his brother becoming a local bank manager. He attended the local primary school and later went onto the Keighley Grammar
1056:
Both accounts are written well after the event but to my statistical background the degree of correlation between the two is pretty good. So unless there are two Herbert Smith's qualifying from Keighley Tech with diplomas at about the same time both of whom by 1914 were working as draughtsmen for
923:
As we disagree so fundamentally on the trustworthiness of the sources, may we take this for arbitration? I don't propose that we should do so until the AfD for this article is resolved, but thereafter I will suggest this. I won't re-insert the material again as I don't want to get into a pointless
749:
is clear that sources should be as scholarly as possible. A partial sentence in a magazine may, perhaps, support something more solid, but it can't be seized upon on its own simply because it’s what you wanted to find. Unfortunately, you persist in your fallacious assertions that are clearly based
1119:
Whoa, hangon. Jumping back before my last edit I'm not denigrating either source. Macmillan's article is based on oral history with the subject themselves and there is nothing wrong with that. Crampton's appears to be based on other sources (I didn't obtain a photocopy of the full article to see
971:
Siddeley to the Institute of Mechanical Engineers’ while the article written some fifteen years earlier was only ‘written from personal conversation with Herbert Smith’. After all, who was Wing Commander Norman Macmillan, OBE, MC and AFC? And what kind of a rag did he write for? One only needs to
952:
Thanks Nthep, it's helpful to have an uninvolved eye on this. I wonder, do you think we could use either or both sources noted above to add something to this article? I thought that the information that a notable person had worked for the company added a small, interesting fact to the article and
674:
Free lessons in historical research are not something I offer. You are unable to produce the full sentence, let alone the full citation, and the source you offer is a non-scholarly journal article written in over sixty years after the event. This is by no means a primary source and it is highly
970:
Yes, Thanks NtheP for this clearly unbiased contribution. I didn’t realise that ‘the Air Pictorial article was written by Squadron Leader John Crampton DFC AFC & Bar MRAeS, a former senior manager with Hawkers who among other things presented a history of the company from Sopwith to Hawker
619:
OBE, MC, AFC, DL, Herbert Smith was a draughtsman when he joined Sopwith in 1914, taking over responsibility for design shortly thereafter. Macmillan makes no mention of Herbert Smith working for Dean, Smith and Grace, and nor does he mention him in the context of the designer of the Pup. See,
1221:
Ok - I bow to the greater definition of interview over oral history, I told you I am only a science graduate. In answer to the second work took me to Wetherby today so in my break I went over to the British Library reading room at Boston Spa and looked at the paper copy of
1361:
1153:
868:
799:
Macmillan mentions Herbert Smith's experience of working in the Yorkshire engineering firm working for Dean, Smith and Grace, following which he moved to a draughtsman's position before joining Sopwith. The Macmillan article makes no mention of Dean Smith and Grace.
644:
1125:
interest to the audience, or that such information was edited out by a sub-editor for space reasons, or that Smith didn't volunteer the information because knowing he was being interviewed for Flight didn't think it would be interesting to the readership.
1332:
to give us your opinion as to whether either or both is a reliable source and whether the information triangulates or not. I really would be interested to understand the reasons in the hope that it might enable me to be a better editor.
1084:
Does this information add anything to the article on DSG? A moot point but perhaps, yes in that it was the first post-Diploma employer of someone who later became the designer of one or more exceptional aircraft of the First World War.
1154:
http://books.google.com/books?id=EUopAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Dean,+Smith+%26+Grace%22&dq=%22Dean,+Smith+%26+Grace%22&hl=en&ei=qjMaTdb2LsKxhQewwLG4Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=71&ved=0CLUCEOgBMEY
869:
http://books.google.com/books?id=EUopAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Dean,+Smith+%26+Grace%22&dq=%22Dean,+Smith+%26+Grace%22&hl=en&ei=qjMaTdb2LsKxhQewwLG4Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=71&ved=0CLUCEOgBMEY
689:
Fair enough. My PhD is not in history, and I would not presume to that level of historical expertise in sourcing and citing material. However I am an experienced Knowledge (XXG) editor and I know what WP requires as a
726:
In my opinion the two sources triangulate very well. And yes, I believe that Smith's time at DSG does make the article a little more substantial. Why are you so dead set against an article that you yourself started?
1030:
I am not wholly uninvolved as I have been endeavouring to help with copyright tags on images uploaded by Weiterbewegung but I would suggest that both sources are equally valid. Being only a science graduate <g:
91:
953:
that the two sources sufficiently supported the assertion. I don't want to overplay the fact, or extrapolate unjustifiably from the (admittedly brief) sources we have. I'd be willing to draft something to see if
1309:
every man's hand seems to be against you. Do you think it could possibly be even partly because of the way you interact with others here? Anyway, I'll say no more here and keep a watching brief for a while.
243:
1190:
Also: 'Macmillan's article is based on oral history with the subject themselves ...? Where I come from that would be called an interview; 'oral history' is quite different both in concept and in method.
346:
1414:
745:
heresay, anacdote and allegory. Anyone can just make stuff up. Clear NOW? As I wrote before, the DSG article is without substance. Your two sources cannot triangulate (think about it). Moreover, the
1104:
Weiterbewegung, I realise you're being hounded on several fronts at the moment and I'm not trying to add to the melee. But what would you think to an addition as suggested by Nthep above: -->
31:
924:
edit war. Do you think there is anything in either source that would positively contribute to the article you started? If so maybe we can compromise on a wording we both agree on.
1120:
what references are used). That they both have a very close correlation about the information contained within them suggests that either they are both correct or both wrong.
1404:
1032:
I will defer to a history PhD in what consitutes a reliable a source and how sources may or may not triangulate but to read the two sources together, we have (from
494:
168:
1399:
957:
would agree to it, but a first draft might look better from an uninvolved editor. However I will understand if you don't want to step too far into this one!
162:
282:
269:
1364:. But I think this discussion is for the article talk page, not an AfD. Have written more fully there. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 19:11, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
1424:
484:
1156:
all I get is a partial view of a page in a book - see for yourself. Whats going on? and whay has the external link on the DSG article page been removed?
516:
This has not been copied directly from the website concerned. In any case, this information is well in the public domain and the website has been cited.
698:
have to be a scholarly journal. WP is not a PhD thesis, just an encyclopaedia. If you don't want to contribute to the latter you are not compelled to.
1429:
1419:
1409:
470:
445:
138:
276:
1394:
844:
532:
256:
1175:
has access to a fuller copy of the article than I could find. I can't see that any external link has been removed, which do you mean?
439:
429:
382:
129:
86:
1305:
feel besieged on all fronts and I don't want to add unnecessarily to the ranks of the besiegers. However you might want to consider
1212:
has access to a fuller copy of the article, then why does he not give us the details? The missing link? I suggest you look and try.
561:
I agree that the photo was helpful to the article. Can you find and upload a version that is clearly free of copyright problems?
712:
Herbert Smith thing is obviously a straw-clutching exercise. Even if it’s true, does it make the article any more substantial?
1267:
the conclusions they want to draw. If, however, you think that the link ought to be in, I've no objection to it being added.
250:
237:
61:
337:
1323:
Sorry but I am walking away from this as well for the time being. I've looked through every revision of this article since
741:
263:
622:
Flight, 30th December 1960, ‘Who Designed the Famous Sopwith Types?’ a Mystery Solved by Wing Commander Norman Macmillan.
875:
804:
27:
1076:
moved into the aircraft maufacturing business, firstly with the Bristol Aeroplane Company and then Sopwith Aviation.
186:
1369:
1316:
1295:
1255:
1195:
1181:
1161:
1110:
999:
980:
963:
930:
914:
901:
885:
854:
840:
814:
774:
759:
733:
717:
704:
680:
659:
594:
579:
567:
551:
528:
289:
67:
1245:. As far as I can see it is still there, still working and has never been deleted. Am I missing something?
832:
520:
49:
423:
309:
1365:
1291:
1246:
1191:
1157:
990:
976:
954:
910:
881:
850:
836:
810:
755:
713:
676:
626:
575:
547:
524:
825:
621:
137:
on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
443:, where you can join the project, see a list of open tasks, and join in discussions on the project's
20:
1311:
1250:
1176:
1105:
994:
958:
925:
896:
769:
728:
699:
654:
589:
562:
1061:
Herbert Smith, qualified with a diploma in Mechanical Engineering from Bradford Technical College
1025:
588:
As long as the copyright status of the image is clear and permissible, there will be no problem.
750:
only upon ‘what you believe to be’, and not what is the nearest to the truth that we can get.
476:
302:
198:
190:
1226:
for June 1975. From that I got a copy of the first page including the part I quoted above.
616:
416:
295:
121:
653:
So I think we can be safe in the knowledge that there is only one Herbert, and this is he!
632:
I think the confirmation that there is just one Herbert is in the fascinating article from
1337:
1272:
1231:
1130:
1090:
972:
943:
895:
Pictorial gives the names of the firms, Macmillan doesn't but confirms all other details.
326:
746:
691:
224:
1388:
574:
What? Put up another clay pigeon? Do me once, shame on you; do me twice, shame on me.
1290:
not revealing this earlier? Is this what you call ‘co-operative and communicative’?
1149:
Question: Why is this the first time that this paragraph has been quoted in full?
1373:
1341:
1318:
1299:
1276:
1257:
1235:
1213:
1199:
1183:
1165:
1134:
1112:
1094:
1001:
984:
965:
947:
932:
918:
903:
889:
858:
818:
776:
763:
735:
721:
706:
684:
661:
596:
583:
569:
555:
1333:
1268:
1227:
1209:
1172:
1126:
1086:
939:
406:
177:
111:
1241:
The only external link that I can see the article ever having is the one to
434:
410:
400:
376:
740:
Perhaps you should both (or are there now three of you), have a look at
437:
on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, you can visit the
993:, I'm having trouble understanding what your contribution above means.
134:
105:
80:
1242:
867:
The article that mentions Dean Smith and Grace is clearly a fragment:
826:
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1960/1960%20-%203097.html
615:
Perhaps there were two Herbert Smiths. According to Wing Commander
244:
Knowledge (XXG):Requested articles/Business and economics/Companies
479:
in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
475:
This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
201:. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the
43:
15:
433:, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
176:
611:
Following text moved from article to here for discussion:-
768:
I always assume good faith until events prove me wrong.
1328:
1415:
Start-Class articles with conflicting quality ratings
643:
This exactly matches the text from the source at the
133:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
167:This article has not yet received a rating on the
1068:and following spells with Dean, Smith and Grace
828:it makes no mention of Dean Smith and Grace.
8:
283:Category:Company articles needing infoboxes
270:Category:Company articles needing attention
371:
232:Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
210:
75:
47:
1405:Automatically assessed Companies articles
1101:- thanks for taking the time and trouble!
30:on 19 December 2010 (UTC). The result of
639:until their liquidation in October 1920.
752:Here endeth this complete waste of time
636:linked above. It contains these words:
373:
77:
871:it is not clear what this document is.
202:
455:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Yorkshire
308:Help expand stub articles located at
147:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Companies
7:
795:Material moved here for verification
257:Category:Unassessed company articles
127:This article is within the scope of
1400:Unknown-importance company articles
1141:From Air Pictorial we have ........
66:It is of interest to the following
477:project-independent quality rating
14:
1425:Mid-importance Yorkshire articles
1079:<ref name="Air Pictorial/: -->
1074:<ref name="Air Pictorial/: -->
1070:<ref name="Air Pictorial/: -->
1065:<ref name="Air Pictorial: -->
409:
399:
375:
334:Tag company talk pages with the
223:
114:
104:
90:
79:
48:
19:
1066:cite Air Pictorial</ref: -->
847:) 21:23, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
824:The Macmillan article is here:
489:This article has been rated as
26:This article was nominated for
1430:WikiProject Yorkshire articles
1420:Start-Class Yorkshire articles
1410:WikiProject Companies articles
458:Template:WikiProject Yorkshire
323:Tag company articles with the
150:Template:WikiProject Companies
1:
1374:21:18, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1360:Remember this? The source is
1342:18:10, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1319:17:53, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1300:17:42, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1277:17:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1258:17:24, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1236:17:21, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1214:17:17, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1208:If, as seems to be the case,
1200:17:12, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1184:17:08, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1166:17:02, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1135:16:15, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1113:16:05, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1095:15:58, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
1072:and Smith, Major and Stephens
1002:15:19, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
985:15:04, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
966:14:36, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
948:14:22, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
933:21:52, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
919:21:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
909:reversing your changes again.
904:21:35, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
890:21:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
859:21:27, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
819:21:12, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
777:20:44, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
764:20:33, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
736:20:04, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
722:19:52, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
707:19:38, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
685:19:32, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
662:19:06, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
597:18:29, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
584:18:21, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
570:16:56, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
556:16:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
141:and see a list of open tasks.
1327:was first mentioned in this
1243:Dean Smith and Grace website
975:to see what a nobody he was.
214:WikiProject Companies To-do:
1395:Stub-Class company articles
1078:<ref name="Flight"/: -->
1446:
1063:<ref name="Flight": -->
495:project's importance scale
169:project's importance scale
535:) 17:52, 14 December 2010
488:
474:
394:
209:
184:
166:
99:
74:
1152:When I follow the link:
1064:cite Flight</ref: -->
427:is within the scope of
424:Dean, Smith & Grace
310:Category:Company stubs
185:This article has been
181:
56:This article is rated
430:WikiProject Yorkshire
347:requests for comments
338:WikiProject Companies
180:
130:WikiProject Companies
60:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
647:journal. This says:
625:Originally added by
541:Deletion of graphics
876:failed verification
805:failed verification
627:User:Weiterbewegung
187:automatically rated
742:Assume good faith?
607:How many Herberts?
461:Yorkshire articles
197:because it uses a
182:
62:content assessment
1029:
849:
835:comment added by
537:
523:comment added by
509:
508:
505:
504:
501:
500:
370:
369:
366:
365:
362:
361:
358:
357:
193:or other tool as
42:
41:
1437:
1314:
1253:
1179:
1108:
1023:
997:
961:
928:
899:
880:
874:
848:
829:
809:
803:
772:
731:
702:
657:
617:Norman Macmillan
592:
565:
536:
517:
463:
462:
459:
456:
453:
419:
417:Yorkshire portal
414:
413:
403:
396:
395:
390:
387:
379:
372:
341:
330:
296:Portal:Companies
238:Article requests
227:
220:
219:
211:
204:
155:
154:
153:company articles
151:
148:
145:
124:
122:Companies portal
119:
118:
117:
108:
101:
100:
95:
94:
93:
83:
76:
59:
53:
52:
44:
23:
16:
1445:
1444:
1440:
1439:
1438:
1436:
1435:
1434:
1385:
1384:
1312:
1251:
1177:
1143:
1106:
995:
959:
926:
897:
878:
872:
830:
807:
801:
797:
770:
747:reliable source
729:
700:
692:reliable source
655:
609:
590:
563:
543:
518:
514:
460:
457:
454:
451:
450:
415:
408:
388:
385:
354:
351:
335:
324:
152:
149:
146:
143:
142:
120:
115:
113:
89:
57:
12:
11:
5:
1443:
1441:
1433:
1432:
1427:
1422:
1417:
1412:
1407:
1402:
1397:
1387:
1386:
1383:
1382:
1381:
1380:
1379:
1378:
1377:
1376:
1366:Weiterbewegung
1351:
1350:
1349:
1348:
1347:
1346:
1345:
1344:
1321:
1313:Kim Dent-Brown
1292:Weiterbewegung
1282:
1281:
1280:
1279:
1261:
1260:
1252:Kim Dent-Brown
1247:Weiterbewegung
1219:
1218:
1217:
1216:
1203:
1202:
1192:Weiterbewegung
1187:
1186:
1178:Kim Dent-Brown
1158:Weiterbewegung
1142:
1139:
1138:
1137:
1116:
1115:
1107:Kim Dent-Brown
1102:
1082:
1081:
1054:
1053:
1042:
1041:
1021:
1020:
1019:
1018:
1017:
1016:
1015:
1014:
1013:
1012:
1011:
1010:
1009:
1008:
1007:
1006:
1005:
1004:
996:Kim Dent-Brown
991:Weiterbewegung
977:Weiterbewegung
973:look at his CV
960:Kim Dent-Brown
955:Weiterbewegung
927:Kim Dent-Brown
911:Weiterbewegung
898:Kim Dent-Brown
882:Weiterbewegung
862:
861:
851:Weiterbewegung
837:Weiterbewegung
811:Weiterbewegung
796:
793:
792:
791:
790:
789:
788:
787:
786:
785:
784:
783:
782:
781:
780:
779:
771:Kim Dent-Brown
756:Weiterbewegung
738:
730:Kim Dent-Brown
714:Weiterbewegung
701:Kim Dent-Brown
677:Weiterbewegung
667:
666:
665:
664:
656:Kim Dent-Brown
651:
641:
608:
605:
604:
603:
602:
601:
600:
599:
591:Kim Dent-Brown
576:Weiterbewegung
564:Kim Dent-Brown
548:Weiterbewegung
542:
539:
525:Weiterbewegung
513:
510:
507:
506:
503:
502:
499:
498:
491:Mid-importance
487:
481:
480:
473:
467:
466:
464:
421:
420:
404:
392:
391:
389:Mid‑importance
380:
368:
367:
364:
363:
360:
359:
356:
355:
353:
352:
350:
349:
343:
342:project banner
332:
320:
312:
298:
285:
272:
259:
246:
231:
229:
228:
216:
215:
207:
206:
183:
173:
172:
165:
159:
158:
156:
139:the discussion
126:
125:
109:
97:
96:
84:
72:
71:
65:
54:
40:
39:
32:the discussion
24:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1442:
1431:
1428:
1426:
1423:
1421:
1418:
1416:
1413:
1411:
1408:
1406:
1403:
1401:
1398:
1396:
1393:
1392:
1390:
1375:
1371:
1367:
1363:
1359:
1358:
1357:
1356:
1355:
1354:
1353:
1352:
1343:
1339:
1335:
1330:
1326:
1325:Air Pictorial
1322:
1320:
1317:
1315:
1308:
1303:
1302:
1301:
1297:
1293:
1288:
1287:
1286:
1285:
1284:
1283:
1278:
1274:
1270:
1265:
1264:
1263:
1262:
1259:
1256:
1254:
1248:
1244:
1240:
1239:
1238:
1237:
1233:
1229:
1225:
1224:Air Pictorial
1215:
1211:
1207:
1206:
1205:
1204:
1201:
1197:
1193:
1189:
1188:
1185:
1182:
1180:
1174:
1170:
1169:
1168:
1167:
1163:
1159:
1155:
1150:
1147:
1140:
1136:
1132:
1128:
1123:
1118:
1117:
1114:
1111:
1109:
1103:
1099:
1098:
1097:
1096:
1092:
1088:
1080:
1075:
1071:
1067:
1060:
1059:
1058:
1051:
1050:
1049:
1047:
1046:Air Pictorial
1039:
1038:
1037:
1035:
1027:
1026:edit conflict
1003:
1000:
998:
992:
988:
987:
986:
982:
978:
974:
969:
968:
967:
964:
962:
956:
951:
950:
949:
945:
941:
936:
935:
934:
931:
929:
922:
921:
920:
916:
912:
907:
906:
905:
902:
900:
893:
892:
891:
887:
883:
877:
870:
866:
865:
864:
863:
860:
856:
852:
846:
842:
838:
834:
827:
823:
822:
821:
820:
816:
812:
806:
794:
778:
775:
773:
767:
766:
765:
761:
757:
753:
748:
743:
739:
737:
734:
732:
725:
724:
723:
719:
715:
710:
709:
708:
705:
703:
697:
693:
688:
687:
686:
682:
678:
673:
672:
671:
670:
669:
668:
663:
660:
658:
652:
650:
646:
645:Air Pictorial
642:
640:
635:
631:
630:
629:
628:
623:
618:
614:
613:
612:
606:
598:
595:
593:
587:
586:
585:
581:
577:
573:
572:
571:
568:
566:
560:
559:
558:
557:
553:
549:
540:
538:
534:
530:
526:
522:
511:
496:
492:
486:
483:
482:
478:
472:
469:
468:
465:
448:
447:
442:
441:
436:
432:
431:
426:
425:
418:
412:
407:
405:
402:
398:
397:
393:
384:
381:
378:
374:
348:
344:
339:
333:
328:
322:
321:
319:
317:
313:
311:
307:
305:
304:
299:
297:
294:
292:
291:
286:
284:
281:
279:
278:
273:
271:
268:
266:
265:
260:
258:
255:
253:
252:
247:
245:
242:
240:
239:
234:
233:
230:
226:
222:
221:
218:
217:
213:
212:
208:
200:
199:stub template
196:
192:
188:
179:
175:
174:
170:
164:
161:
160:
157:
140:
136:
132:
131:
123:
112:
110:
107:
103:
102:
98:
88:
85:
82:
78:
73:
69:
63:
55:
51:
46:
45:
37:
33:
29:
25:
22:
18:
17:
1324:
1306:
1223:
1220:
1151:
1148:
1144:
1121:
1083:
1077:
1073:
1069:
1062:
1055:
1045:
1043:
1033:
1022:
831:— Preceding
798:
751:
695:
694:. This does
648:
637:
633:
624:
610:
544:
519:— Preceding
515:
490:
444:
440:project page
438:
428:
422:
329:|Companies}}
315:
314:
301:
300:
288:
287:
275:
274:
262:
261:
249:
248:
236:
235:
194:
128:
68:WikiProjects
35:
386:Start‑class
1389:Categories
1171:I presume
989:I'm sorry
205:parameter.
195:Stub-class
58:Stub-class
452:Yorkshire
446:talk page
435:Yorkshire
383:Yorkshire
144:Companies
135:companies
87:Companies
1048:we have
845:contribs
833:unsigned
533:contribs
521:unsigned
512:Untitled
331:template
290:Maintain
264:Copyedit
28:deletion
493:on the
345:Answer
277:Infobox
1122:Flight
1034:Flight
634:Flight
546:squad.
327:portal
251:Assess
203:|auto=
64:scale.
1334:NtheP
1269:NtheP
1228:NtheP
1210:NtheP
1173:NtheP
1127:NtheP
1087:NtheP
1044:From
940:NtheP
471:Start
316:Other
303:Stubs
189:by a
1370:talk
1362:here
1338:talk
1329:diff
1296:talk
1273:talk
1232:talk
1196:talk
1162:talk
1131:talk
1091:talk
981:talk
944:talk
915:talk
886:talk
855:talk
841:talk
815:talk
760:talk
718:talk
681:talk
580:talk
552:talk
529:talk
36:keep
34:was
1307:why
1031:-->
696:not
485:Mid
191:bot
163:???
1391::
1372:)
1340:)
1298:)
1275:)
1234:)
1198:)
1164:)
1133:)
1093:)
1036:)
983:)
946:)
917:)
888:)
879:}}
873:{{
857:)
843:•
817:)
808:}}
802:{{
762:)
754:.
720:)
683:)
582:)
554:)
531:•
340:}}
336:{{
325:{{
1368:(
1336:(
1294:(
1271:(
1230:(
1194:(
1160:(
1129:(
1089:(
1028:)
1024:(
979:(
942:(
913:(
884:(
853:(
839:(
813:(
758:(
716:(
679:(
578:(
550:(
527:(
497:.
449:.
318::
306::
293::
280::
267::
254::
241::
171:.
70::
38:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
