873:- since it's not itself a protest and a serious, independent investigation is unlikely to happen that fast (evidence has to be gathered, legal procedures done, documents gathered). I don't see why the investigation would make sense in the main 2019 HK protests article, apart from a brief summary when (presumably) it's completed. Regarding notability, the sources in this article so far, and for the moment the sources that are so far only in the other two articles, make it clear that this death has sparked off further protest (such as the 11 November protests) and is of interest to the international media (such as
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1184:) had the audacity to dismiss the challenge a native user of Hong Kong Chinese regarding a Hong Kong Chinese source with the flippant comment "you know very well what it refers to". Yes I do know very well, and you don't. In the meantime I'm happy to leave the article in a state that Citobun and Ohconfucius agree on.
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which attempt to draw an unjustified conclusion (to a certainty that doesn't exist), and which have been called into question because independent sources consider the government narrative is untrustworthy. I will be reworking the article in due course – I'll probably start by paring down the relevant
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Oh, this one is nasty... See how you changed specifically who the police pointed crowd control weapons at (i.e., protesters), removed what kind of weapons it was (i.e., crowd control weapons), and misleadingly changed the meaning to imply that police used the weapons to disperse people at the scene.
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will get you banned. However, I hope that you can turn over a new leaf and we can edit productively together. If you have any substantive issue with the changes, I'd be pleased to hear them and put them right. I am mindful when editing that while we must be careful not to misstate; reformulation and
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In addition to your content removal, I'll also point it out how misleading your edits are one-by-one after your done with your slash-and-burn (since what I wanted to write here, prepared yesterday, has been overtaken by your new edits). But here's two short examples of many to come, you changing the
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not valid" when I have only made one argument: that in your misunderstanding of the sources you created an original synthesis not present in either source. I appreciate your desire to improve these articles but I'm afraid your combative behaviour is making it difficult for other editors to take your
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said Chow was a parkour practitioner and was an observer which was why he was in the car park. This was what led to him to accidentally jump off the building. Not mentioned was that his buddy narrowly avoided going the same way. Also, not mentioned here was that the officer was later reprimanded for
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However, it was ascertained that the disseminated footage actually depicted ambulance A346, which was assigned to a person with shortness of breath and back pain who would decline ambulance services; the personnel encountered an ongoing police dispersal operation against protesters, where tear gas
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You removed context such as why the police was blaming the protesters (the roadblocks) and decided to reword the "false and groundless" statement (the literal wording as given in the source) to vehemently push your POV sentence (which you duplicate in the lead too). Again, misleading:
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actually depicted ambulance A346, which was assigned to a person with shortness of breath and back pain who would decline ambulance services; the personnel encountered an ongoing police dispersal operation against protesters, where tear gas was used, and waited in the ambulance for
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You removed what Chow was doing in his last moment captured before the fall. Secondly, it's the last moment captured on camera before the fall. A critical wording, as there is footage of him lying injured there too (that is, after the fall). Again, misleading:
1524:(1) I did not just find only 2 misleading edits (I said more were to come later). I made a list of about 15 to 20 things (or more if separated into smaller chunks) that were misleading, but you made new edits afterwards. I hadn't found the time to redo it.
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As you have quoted yourself, the text you want to insert into the article using said source is "However, it was ascertained that the disseminated footage actually depicted ambulance A346", so it is clear where the burden of proof lies. It is unacceptable
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After doxxing efforts by protesters, the private details of a police officer's wedding in Tseung Kwan O on 3 November 2019 were leaked and calls were made to crash the event, which would eventually lead to an overnight confrontation between police and
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detail is certainly a by-product of simplification; some errors may also have crept in due to the fact that I had reverted to a previous version that may have contained the errors that were the target of objections. Let's work together instead of
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First off, I was the one who wrote the entire timeline information. It is literally my own text from earlier and I decided that the timeline in table format should be worked into the body of the text with editorial discretion, where context
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policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
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There are about 300 ambulances in Hong Kong. Your proposed text purported a link that the two sources were talking about the same ambulance, which is not supported by the sources. You claim that my "previous argument for removal was
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Secondly, we now have an actual OFFICIAL account from the ambulances service of the Fire
Service Department. It's one unnamed "witness" versus the FSD themselves. The accusation of being blocked still remains in the article in any
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Thanks for starting to engage. I must be doing quite well for you only to find two "misleading statements" among my changes. However, I disagree with that categorisation; I also resent your objectionable accusation of a quote:
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Thanks for the suggestion. CGTN has a known bias against Hong Kong's protest movement so I think we'd be giving this speculation undue weight if we covered it, unless it was corroborated by a few other reputable media outlets.
1531:(reflected in the sources) and not copy the whole content. Such as "false", "groundless", "help" in the examples above. I'm curious to your "found" examples of close paraphrasing to prove that your statement is not meritless.
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here and there (not pointed out here). Ergo, your edits are aptly likened to a slash and burn. Finally... Of course, it was expected that you wouldn't provide a reasoning for your edits, but only state "I disagree"...
1333:. Burden of proof established, as the topic in the source (which you claim to know very well) is clear. (Notwithstanding that you are now ignoring how your previous argument for removal was also not valid.)
1369:, as this is what the source themselves state about the footage. There's also nothing about the footage being “released in response to HKUST's allegation” which you (wrongly) use as reason for removal. --
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CCTV footage showed that Chow was wandering alone, backwards and forwards between the inside the car park and on a connecting footbridge from 0:26 until 01:02 – the last moment he was captured on camera.
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I count about 10-11 sentences in common, but the quality of referencing is not that precise in the List article. I see no point in integrating info about the expected investigation into the death into
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There were several people, including those in black clothing and firefighters, inside the car park at the time. The firefighters arrived at the car park at 00:55 in response to a call about a fire.
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It's important content to know what Chow himself was doing, which you removed. Secondly, I've noticed that you tend to insert weasel words throughout, but that might merely be coincidence...
1480:. You seem to be a lone wolf, and others have evidently had enough of your POV-pushing and tendentious editing, but I don't expect you to stop until you are topic banned. Your continuing
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This behaviour has become long-term issue. I rarely edit these articles as it is just toxic to deal with. TBH I think as the user has been warned multiple times it's about time for ANI.
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to doxing of police officers and calls for revenge. Private details of a police officer's wedding in Tseung Kwan O on 3 November 2019 were thus leaked, and calls were made to crash it.
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being blocked by police cars and the paramedics walking to the scene, causing a delay of 20 minutes in the rescue operation of our student." However, it was ascertained that the
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This is the end of the list, but more to come, as I'm not done. I'm just telling you this again, since you missed or choose to miss it last time. Secondly, your edits also fail
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They arrived via Po Shun Road at Tong Ming Street, but they could not proceed further as they were held up by a queue of vehicles including double-decker buses and private cars.
994:...but then HKFP, BBC News, Apple Daily and so many western media outlets has a bias toward the Hong Kong's protest movement. It's good to have an alternative perspective IMO.
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How do you know that the method was jail breaking? The source does not state so. Also, you removed the context that the one testifying was the one who attempted to unlock it:
899:. The proposer clearly know the importance of the subject article, but nevertheless delete most of the content in the name of merge, which had trimmed many important content.
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last year, where they demonstrated the same behaviour described by
Ohconfucius above. I had to back away as the unceasing, POV-pushing revert warring made it way too toxic.
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I think the grammar in both the source and the article text is sufficiently clear that they're referring to some friends, not every single human being who knows Alex Chow.
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It is clear that the source is referring to the footage (showing ambulances) circulating in various media in the aftermath of Chow’s fall, so stop talking untruths. --
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of my preceding edits. This is not the first time. I have come back to the article to find that the editor concerned is still demonstrating an unacceptable pattern of
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Your edits for “brevity” is what’s disingenuous, simply an excuse for content removal and not a valid argument (which you do not give) on why it should be removed.
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for now. There is enough content for a standalone article. If a few months down the line Chow's death ceases being discussed in public discourse, we can rethink.
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One of Chow's messages was " at the car park just to watch the show. brought nothing." Another of his messages showed that he was "getting the popcorn."
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In an email to HKUST staff and students pledging to take up the matter with police and demand clarification, HKUST president Wei Shyy said: "We saw the
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use of synonyms are techniques commonly used. The article contains abundant and extensive quotes of police statements, and we must also avoid giving
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A346號救護車主管於評估情況安全後，帶同救護裝備由一名自稱急救員，到廣隆閣外處理一名傷者，發現傷者已由的A492救護車的救護人員處理中，救護員於是由消防員引領下，處理原先接報有氣促及腰部痛的病人，而到場後消防員已正為傷者治理，救護員接手後該傷者表示不需要救護服務，並在現場簽署拒絕使用救護車表格。
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Now that the article has been expanded quite significantly, and that it has way more information than the parent article, I have withdrew the merge.
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1277:(something never claimed), while you are aware that it is the reverse (that is, the HKUST president was commenting on the footage in circulation).
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I think the article text is an accurate summary of the source when you read the source with the geographical context of the street names in mind.
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Then, around 00:20 on 4 November, over 100 protesters gathered at the junction of Tong Ming and Tong Chun streets, with some creating roadblocks.
1422:(which is not true, as I went by it one by one), while you are the one that state that “errors may … have crept in” your edits (which is ironic).
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The source talks about firefighters, you misleadingly changed it to police. Secondly, you removed important context. Again, misleading:
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right now only goes up to 8 November inclusive and does not (yet) mention the protests (such as on 11 November) sparked by Chow's dath.
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Parent article has more information than this separate article. I don't really see the point of having it split at this point.
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The CCTV footage showed that Chow was wandering alone inside the car park and on a connecting footbridge from 0:26 to 01:02,
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The messages that Chow made in online group chats on
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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235:-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Hong Kong-related articles, you are invited to
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Thirdly, if we're talking about deleting things, why did you delete the following things in the body of the text:
1019:, why have you deleted mention that a witness claimed that medics told firefighters they were blocked by police?
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47:. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see
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to retrieve the contents of Chow's iPhone, which Chow used to communicate with others that night, after failed
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The following
Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Continuing and accumulated grievances against police brutality since the start of the anti-ELAB protests led
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The police and protesters each blamed the other side for blocking the ambulance from reaching Chow; police
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at the car park to watch the protest. His final message was " also went down to give something to others."
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100 protesters gathered at the junction of Tong Ming and Tong Chun streets, with some creating roadblocks.
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I need sometime to look at the bulk revert in detail but I'll only respond to one part of it for now: In
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What is disingenuous is that you tried to remove this with your rambling about how the footage was not
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I suggest that from now on, proposed edits be printed here (the before and the after) for discussion.
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the iPhone which Chow had been using to communicate with others that night and retrieve its contents.
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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The ambulance was obstructed by other vehicles including double-decker buses and private cars at
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I've tweaked this one to avoid words like "jailbreak" which could be misunderstood in context.
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Your misleading edit added a rationale for the doxxing which was never stated in the source:
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918:. The Death of Chow Tsz Lok is a topic significant enough to exist as a standalone article.
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Here's a list of things, incomplete. The first line is how it was written before (based on
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You misleadingly changed the wording matching the source, as this does not mean the same:
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1534:(3) And lets not pretend how you didn't address me insultingly when this dispute started
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I think "merely" is a reasonable paraphrasing of "just to watch ... brought nothing".
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The firefighters requested an ambulance at 01:11 as they were providing aid to Chow.
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His political views were not known, as friends said they rarely discussed politics.
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The context here is that Chow did not respond to his father, which you removed:
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to link the two sources together this way when neither source makes that link.
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Chan, Ho-him; Cheung, Elizabeth; Chung, Kimmy; Lum, Alvin (8 November 2019).
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Protesters maintain that the police blocked the ambulance from reaching Chow,
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False generalization, since the source only speaks among his school friends:
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statement (what was literally said, per the refs) to a misleading statement:
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were unaware of Chow's political views, as they hardly discussed politics.
1527:(2) I'm unconcerned with close paraphrasing, as I only reproduce relevant
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The source state that it was more than 100 protesters, not around 100:
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Chow made posts in online group chats on
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His final message was " also went down to give something to others."
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I'm not so familiar with this article but enountered this editor at
732:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
1117:. It's too long, too complex and too convuluted. We should follow
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This article has long been problematic as it has been thoroughly
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He did not tell his family why he was going out so late at night.
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At 01:05, they were informed by a passerby about Chow's fall.
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Brevity does not justify removing information from an article
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behaviour. This low-importance article has been turned into
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She added that the police left the first-aiders alone, but
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Here, it is bolded for you, as it was in the wiki article:
1684:(cite for the last bit, see stable url mentioned for rest)
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He asked Chow why he was going out so late at night, but
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She said that the firefighters told the police that they
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She said that the firefighters told the police that they
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by avoid excessive detail and verbosity, because it's a r
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You removed important content about what was happening:
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were informed by a civilian that a person had fallen.
1880:. I've edited the relevant sentence in the article.
509:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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231:, a project to coordinate efforts in improving all
1771:, and left the first-aiders alone to provide care.
1759:pointed crowd control weapons towards protesters.
1265:was used, and waited in the ambulance for safety.
1537:and here at the top calling me disingenuous. --
1769:dispersed the people at the scene with weapons
1654:when he was walking upwards to the third floor
1248:救護車基於現場情況不安全，救護車同事留於車內密切留意情況，及向消防通訊中心表示未能通過路口。
1080:Participate in the deletion discussion at the
1952:He stated that police had attempted but were
1436:which the police called false and groundless.
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1776:The source doesn't talk about a junction:
1461:PS: You broke an URL in the references. --
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862:List of November 2019 Hong Kong protests
857:present version of Death of Chow Tsz Lok
851:right now has only about three sentences
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1497:of sources for copyright reasons. --
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1822:had prevented vehicles from passing.
797:The following discussion is closed.
718:This article is within the scope of
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1755:dispersed the people near the scene
1256:This is what the Wiki article says:
79:It is of interest to the following
2057:from the original on 29 June 2020.
1637:Then, around 00:20 on 4 November,
1453:and did not require their presence
1105:wholescale and disingenuous revert
854:which overlap with what is in the
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2045:黃廸雯; 魯嘉裕; 楊婉婷 (8 November 2019).
1567:). I bolded things for emphasis.
1075:Sheung Tak Memorial Alex chow.png
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2047:"【墮樓科大生】救護遇巴士、私家車阻塞 警澄清無派喬裝或便衣警"
2026:Chan, Ho-him (8 November 2019).
1872:The possible contention here is
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948:The discussion above is closed.
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615:WikiProject Law Enforcement
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2053:(in Chinese (Hong Kong)).
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1610:protesters.
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1371:Cold Season
1284:Cold Season
1052:Cold Season
2118:Categories
1998:References
1688:At 01:05,
1565:stable url
1561:stable url
901:Universehk
895:I am with
603:Law portal
406:...orphans
391:(5,424) •
32:While the
2072:parts. --
1178:this edit
1109:ownership
866:right now
776:WITHDRAWN
739:Biography
685:Biography
618:. Please
242:Hong Kong
233:Hong Kong
189:Hong Kong
2055:Archived
2032:Archived
2020:Archived
1740:presence
1367:WP:SYNTH
1303:WP:SYNTH
1037:matters.
808:OceanHok
782:OceanHok
520:Politics
511:politics
467:Politics
436:(390) •
1359:safety.
1207:Citobun
1161:Citobun
1127:trivial
1099:Reverts
1022:Citobun
660:on the
612:of the
547:on the
440:(1,324)
395:(6,732)
370:(1,026)
353:(60) •
296:history
269:on the
164:on the
71:B-class
2105:(talk)
1962:Deryck
1919:Deryck
1911:merely
1882:Deryck
1878:family
1874:father
1799:Deryck
1690:police
1639:around
1591:Deryck
1391:Deryck
1307:Deryck
1234:source
1186:Deryck
984:Deryck
937:Deryck
933:Oppose
916:Oppose
839:Oppose
628:Assess
626:, and
624:Create
379:(348)
324:(4) •
77:scale.
1529:terms
1236:says:
1041:case.
961:This
860:. In
822:Merge
610:scope
357:(290)
317:(60)
306:purge
301:watch
137:Death
128:Death
100:Death
2100:Tony
2078:Ohc
2051:HK01
1986:talk
1757:and
1725:help
1543:talk
1503:Ohc
1467:talk
1386:also
1375:talk
1288:talk
1212:talk
1182:here
1166:talk
1144:Ohc
1138:. --
1090:talk
1056:talk
1027:talk
1000:talk
972:talk
924:talk
905:talk
897:Boud
887:talk
883:Boud
830:talk
812:talk
786:talk
728:and
620:Join
328:(23)
291:edit
1876:vs
1709:...
1134:to
1084:. —
881:).
652:Low
539:Low
261:Low
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1965:C.
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