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discussion template and didn't even tried to add it back nor said it here. Althought it's obvious that you just changed your instance now. Without a doubt, the biggest problem with the editors and this discussion is that they change of instance randomly and contradict themselves all the time, one day they have no problem with a change, but two days later they comeback and rant as if they were opposing from the begining, it's like i get to add post-metal to the infobox and one week later i comeback and want to remove it at any cost, from here and onwards, can all the editors here be consistent about it's instance in the infobox issue? that will give direction to this discussion.
255:
this article. He clearly states "we don't need to highlight a content dispute in the article," meaing precisely that, it shouldn't have been there in the first place. He doesn't state that the discussion was over, so that is an assumption on your part. Again, the discussion was previously about post-metal, nu metal wasn't even in dispute until you mentioned it right at the end, and, based on your behaviour in this article, I can imagine any re-instating of nu metal would quickly be reverted by yourself. Also, two sources aren't enough. The reliable sources that exist stating nu metal (not just in the article, but any available) must be weighed with those that state they aren't.
365:"if you had a problem with nu metal being removed you should have said it, in contrast you remove the discussion template and didn't even tried to add it back nor said it here" I didn't discuss nu metal's inclusion because the discussion was about post-metal and I wanted to keep things focused. I had actually toyed with starting a new section to discuss the inclusion of nu metal once the previous discussion wrapped up, but passed on it to focus on other work on Knowledge in the meantime. Me not raising an objection to something isn't silent consent--I tend to either clearly agree or disagree with something. What a lack of comment means from it is I most likely became busy
201:
replied. Stating that "we all agreed in removing the highly disputed term "nu metal" from the infobox" really did come out the blue. The discussion was about post-metal not nu metal, so why you decided to add that at the tail end of the discussion instead of starting a new one, I don't know. And I am pretty sure one editor does not get to decide when the discussion is over and what the consensus is. Also, "and most important there are reviewers that states that
Deftones aren't nu metal anymore, nd others going as far as to say that they have never been" - do you have the sources that state as much?
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getting something we wanted. I made it to stop a discussion that could have gone in circles forever, nu metal was out of the infobox before the post-metal thing ended, so it was deemed as a silent consensus and i just made it explicit to him. In fact there is nearly twelve years since the band stoped playing it, and most important there are reviewers that states that
Deftones aren't nu metal anymore, nd others going as far as to say that they have never been, the genre deserves mention, but not in the infobox.
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Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals, and mainstream newspapers. Electronic media may also be used, subject to the same criteria." It in no way says that one is superior to the other, just what would be prefered if aviable, and it does emphasizes in the fields of science and history, not music.
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the same time, I indeed, questioned the presence in the infobox of a genre as debated as nu metal before, nu metal in
Deftones' music has detractors, the infobox must be only for the most general and less debated genres, as of now, post-metal has more right to be there, because you won't find a number of journalists saying "Deftones have been wrongly labeled as post-metal" like happens with nu metal, and is a genre that Deftones plays right now.
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another edit and checked the history as well and now we are discussing it. Since last month though, I have started at
University so that deserves my attention more than a genre discussion in an article, wouldn't you agree? Hence the lack of time. "post-metal has more right to be there" - two weak sources for support against 4 published sources for nu metal. Doesn't have much right as it seems to be a minority opinion, ergo not a general genre.
31:
504:. However, it only states "the genre or genres of music performed by the act. Aim for generality." I think someone has previously suggested this, or something along similar lines, but perhaps all genres, with the exception of alternative metal (use it as a general term), should be removed and the musical style section expanded in more detail (such as the arguments for and against nu metal and such).
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566:, certain sources are indeed preferred over others, (ex. "academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources"). Reviews are opinion pieces, and are at a lower rung. So to further iterate, the mere presence of a genre term in a review or ten does little to influence the matter at hand.
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The last time I checked this article and the talk page was August 20 (you don't have to go through the article to get to the talk page by theway). I made an edit to the article itself not long after but didn't notice the removal due to it being a quick revert. I did, however, notice it recently after
273:
The other day you were saying that you were activelly involved in this discussion too, not only Wesley and I. But now you say that you don't have time to even check the infobox of the article that you must acces first to then go to it's talk page to participe, you can't be involved and indiferent at
135:
Re-reading the old discussions, all I can find was the following quote from
Trascendence: "...we all agreed in removing the highly disputed term "nu metal" from the infobox, that is something i wanted..." I don't actually see any editors discussing that idea or forming a consensus, just Trascendence
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over others." No mention of superior. It does not emphasize, it gives history, medicine and science as examples ("such as.."). Just because there is no mention of music, doesn't mean that published sources are not preferred. At the moment, there are four published sources (two of which are specific
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As long as nu metal is out, it's fair, because alt metal and exp. rock are the genres everybody agree with, these have to be the ones that appear in the infobox. Anyway I could bet that when they publish the new album the genre will get enough back up and nu metal will be more dismissed, regardless
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Honestly, leaving aside the arguing for the sake of arguing thing, anybody here is realy concerned for the prescence of exp. rock in the infobox? Historical analisys stills an opinion, just on a diferent presentation. Reviews are as aceptable as any other kind of articles. Knowledge does not favor
254:
I "had two weeks" - you do know there isn't a deadline on
Knowledge right? I also have 996 articles on my watchlist (I don't always manage to check every edit), where I can only see the most recent edits, and I am not on Knowledge every day, so please don't tell me what I am aware of in regards to
171:
If you give a look to the final posts in the post-metal thread you'll found that it was discussed, it was a solution in a "middleground" way, i understand that you two aren't up to date with this, because both rarely opined in it, it was an agreement between
Wesleydoods and I, as way of both of us
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I don't care about experimental rock, i ask because the other editors here have shown to disagree with practically everything, And accord to the wikipedia's sources policy: "academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science...
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As far as I can see, its 3 for alternative metal and 4 for nu metal (5 if you include the
Honolulu Weekly source used for experimental rock) from the infobox and musical style section. Unless I have missed something? Can you point out a policy or guideline that states that the any "controversial"
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Yeah wesley, we can't predict what reviewers might say, that's why i want the article to be this way until more reviews appear. Also HrZ nu metal isn't the most sourced, that would be alternative metal, and while nu metal deserves a mention in the article, the infobox must be only for genres that
156:
Have to agree with Fezmar9, there was no discussion on nu metal, with only mentions here and there, just post-metal. In fact, the only other genre
Trascendence appeared to have a problem with was experimental rock. Nu metal is well sourced and no other editor during that discussion stated that it
332:
And I do want post-metal to be in the infobox, and it's a genre less debated and controversial with the band playing it right now, but this was supossed to be a temporal "middleground" solution, if you had a problem with nu metal being removed you should have said it, in contrast you remove the
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I've re-read the discussion, there is no such agreement between you and WesleyDodds. I should also point out that the discussion was not just between you and WesleyDodds either, other editors were involved and you can't just ignore their views to get what you want regardless of when they last
869:. Havn't read them all the way through, some mention they are nu metal or moved on from it (but they would have to be nu metal in the first place for that to happen though). There is probably more but they should be weighed against sources that exist stating they aren't nu metal as well.
524:
Also, reviews aren't the best source for anything aside from the critical opinion expressed by the authors, as by nature they are opinion pieces, not reporting or historical analysis. Even if more reviews using a certain genre phrase show up, that doesn't necessarily mean anything.
229:
removing the discuss template as a way of point that the discussion was over, also, if you were that much concerned with it's removal why didn't added it back while it was in dispute, you had two weeks to do so, you were aware it wasn't there. As for the oposition to nu-metal see:
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in recognizing that the band is widely, almost universally, accepted as being a nu-metal band. The sources provided to support this idea are all published books and hard to disputeāunlike some of the previous genres which where sourced to minor reviews and non-notable blogs.
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I actually don't agree with experimental rock being there, but I won't get into that here. Whatever you speculate on what people might say about nu metal in the future is certainly your right, but that doesn't mean anything here, as we're not here to predict the future.
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to the genre) as well as one source that mentions they have played nu metal). You have provided only two sources (both of which are only album reviews and opinion pieces). If it is a controversial genre as you state, surely you can provide more evidence?
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It's not ok to asume things that the policy don't says, because music isn't a topic as delicate as medicine, as long as the site have a printed couterpart or meet the review criteria it's allright. Now regarding to the nu-metal thing, here's some more:
453:
two album reviews. It shouldn't be removed because of editors own personal opinions of what the band is (just to throw it out there, I NEVER describe
Deftones as nu metal or think of them as such, but it is irrelevant because Knowledge is about
449:. Nu metal has more sources than most in the article. And there are bound to be more as well. If there is enough evidence that outweighs those sources then it should be removed, But that evidence hasn't been provided yet with the exception of
157:
should be removed (along with post-metal), the consensus was that post-metal should be removed, so why Trascendence decided to remove it without waiting for a reply from any of the editors, perhaps he could explain?
347:"And I do want post-metal to be in the infobox, and it's a genre less debated and controversial with the band playing it right now . . ." No it isn't, that's been roundly contested in the previous discussion.
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I've re-read much of the original discussion, I don't see an agreement between you and WesleyDodds. In fact, WesleyDodds brings up a number of published sources that support Deftones playing nu metal.
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supporting it out of the blue. And as much as I personally believe Deftones don't really play nu-metal (I personally hear a really wide range of influences), I've been highly
356:" but this was supossed to be a temporal "middleground" solution . . ." No, it wasn't. Consensus was against you. You're the only one who considered it a stopgap solution.
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By the by, Google Book Search is a good place to look for credible sources (beware the occasional sly reprinting of Knowledge articles, though). There's a couple of
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Let's keep the discussion focused on nu metal and not post-metal--that particular horse has been beaten to death and the consensus was in favor not including it.
562:"Historical analisys stills an opinion, just on a diferent presentation". Nope, you don't need to cite references to have an opinion published. And per
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Not all editors need to discuss the same issue ten times to reach an agreement, ones even do it in an implicit way (like this case) here's my proposal
619:"It in no way says that one is superior to the other, just what would be prefered if aviable" - WesleyDodds stated "certain sources are indeed
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If editors disagree with post-metal but don't show any source that refutes deftones being such, It doesn't matters
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Hail! Hail! Rock'n'Roll: The Ultimate Guide to the Music, the Myths and the Madness
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Only reiterating what Wesley just said, but he is right,
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