Talk:Deftones - Knowledge

1040:

Deftones have been considered "nu metal," I understand that it needs to be mentioned. It just seems a little outdated, overly controversial, and overly specific to put "nu metal (early)" in the info box when there are less restrictive and less contentious alternatives that encompass the majority of their work, rather than two or three early albums. The fact that this discussion reoccurs every few months should be enough of an indication that it is best to leave mention of "nu metal" out of the info box while maintaining the discussion of the "nu metal" label within the article. Meanwhile, "alternative metal" and "experimental rock" are inclusive and general enough to capture almost any genre or sub genre that has been ascribed to the band, including "nu metal." I don't want to appear biased, although, obviously, I have come off as such to a few editors. I certainly won't deny that I have my own opinions as to how the band has been labeled genre-wise. However, any opinions in that regard are not the reason I am bringing this back up. I just wanted to see if there could be a compromise that will limit genre-warring while still addressing the fact that some of the Deftones' discography has been considered "nu metal." To me, the obvious and preferable compromise would be to use "alternative metal" in the infobox to cover "nu metal" while still specifically addressing "nu metal" in the "Styles and Influences" section. Thanks for your time, and sorry that you have to hear this once more, but I think it is a necessary point to bring up.

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it, which highlights the very point that they never belonged to it. Nu metal is typically characterized as angsty personal lyrics about social persecution/depression/family trauma (largely absent here), guitar/bass heavily downtuned to C or B (Deftones usually tune no further than drop-D which is a staple of various other metal genres), and typically hip-hop elements such as DJ scratching and/or rap vocals (but not all nu metal has rap vocals, and not all rap-rock is nu metal). Deftones has roughly 3 songs in their entire catalog where the vocals are unambiguously rapped (Engine No.9/Headup/Back to School). Moreno's vocal style is otherwise entirely singing/screaming or veers into shouted/whispered/spoken vocals more common in post-hardcore; Adrenaline in particular uses more post-hardcore vocal styles and guitar tones. It would be more accurate to put "post-hardcore (early)" in the genre box and remove "nu metal (early)". It certainly should be mentioned in the article that they became popular alongside the movement and often toured with nu metal bands, but it should also be mentioned that applying the label to the band itself is heavily disputed. Sources that refer to them this way do not go into specifics of the label. If people are determined to describe Deftones as nu metal in this article, they should have to reasonably prove what specific elements qualified their early material for the genre, rather than people having to prove they don't.

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the awkward clarifier that it refers to "early" Deftones? I understand there are a lot of sources for "nu metal." However, even disregarding the fact that the majority of these sources are either from the 90s-early 00s or refer to Deftones as unfairly classified as nu metal, no longer deemed nu metal, etc.; and disregarding that only 2 of of their 7 albums have been consistently associated with "nu metal," the fact remains that "nu metal" is widely regarded as a sub genre of "alternative metal." If this is the case, "alternative metal" not only encompasses their newer work but their earlier work that many deem to be "nu metal." "Alternative metal" is general enough that it includes their works deemed "nu metal" yet does not seem as clunky and does not create controversy.

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different from post-rock, and progressive rock and progressive metal are most definitely not the same thing. Also, glitch hop is music that uses heavy sampling in a musique concrète-inspired fashion, while trip hop is a mix of electronic music, hip hop and psychedelia. The lumping of sources also makes it unclear which genres are being cited and makes it difficult to track the sources to the statements the article makes. --

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sounds like in a list that also includes hardcore and trip-hop. The third reference says the end of the song "Error" opens into a shoegaze section. I feel like to be included in the infobox, there needs to be an abundance of reliable sources that say very clearly and explicitly, "Deftones is a shoegaze band." If they only have shoegaze influences then this should only be mentioned in the "Musical Style" section.

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different definition than it did 20 years ago, and old metalcore is now typically labeled "crossover thrash". A similar example is Banger Films stating in the documentary series Metal Evolution that grunge is not a metal subgenre, but is part of the "story" of metal. It's perfectly viable to say that Deftones were part of the story of nu metal, but their music itself was not within the subgenre.

784: 2174: 696: 675: 883: 706: 1889: 1882: 1279:. "A bit like that dude, nu-metal is somehow still standing. And not just at Download either, where you’d expect it. This year’s Reading and Leeds festival saw System of a Down and Deftones from that late ‘90s scene entertain huge main stage crowds." (Discussing the Family Values Tour of 2013.) "Is nu-metal attempting a comeback?" 3430:: I'm not saying we should remove experimental rock; I just think it wouldn't hurt to find more sources for it. The five genres, alternative metal, art rock, shoegaze, experimental rock, and nu metal, seem to cover everything without being excessive. Especially compared to how many genres are in the musical style section. 3488:). I definitely don't think it's just influences, but nobody is going to come out and say anything to the effect of "Deftones is a shoegaze band", either, unless they're coupling it with more genres. Were it up to me, I'd prefer support on the style as a whole and consistently on albums as well - ideally more than two. 1253:. "Admitting to being a nu-metal fan is not an easy confession. ...this year's Download lineup is a testament to the genre's enduring popularity. Slipknot, Korn, Papa Roach and Limp Bizkit all take headline slots while, over at Reading & Leeds, their quirky cousins System Of A Down and Deftones are way up the bill." 480: 1197:. "The album debuted in the middle of the massive tide of nu metal in the late 1990s and early 2000s that also brought with it bands like Korn and Limp Bizkit, but the Deftones have always stood out for their willingness to experiment, their uneasy relationship with genre labels and their startling consistency." 1890:

https://books.google.com/books?id=wXGw14ml_M4C&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=%22deftones%22+%22art+metal%22&source=bl&ots=xc9Q9RmB7u&sig=ipnkVIe5KP91TE4u5fURh2i0EcQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjt5d-ntrLLAhXLuBoKHQYtD0o4ChDoAQhDMAY#v=onepage&q=%22deftones%22%20%22art%20metal%22&f=false

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https://books.google.com/books?id=g3hehP3V7TkC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=%22deftones%22+%22art+metal%22&source=bl&ots=DcHS816HuZ&sig=UrpeYdihs7AyPm_3zbVkLU98x88&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii-ovSsLLLAhVml4MKHaLSD5kQ6AEIVzAO#v=onepage&q=%22deftones%22%20%22art%20metal%22&f=false

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Sorry for starting this up and suddenly bailing, I've had this on the backburner for a bit. But what Fezmar notes is also something I was noticing. I suppose the last quote I added to the third footnote for shoegaze does make it clearer. To say a part of a band's sound is an "expectation" is explicit

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Thanks for the response. Yes, I am fine and this isn't uncharacteristic of me. I type really fast and just tend to have a lot more typos in my posts when I edit on my phone. My edits that are labeled as "Mobile web edit" tend to have more typos. Also, this is a weird thing for someone of my tenure to

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to read the entire article to obtain said information. I mean, why have the band members listed if they're just in the article? Why have the active dates listed if they're in the article? Et cetera. Knowledge is supposed to be a wealth of quickly accessible information. I don't want to have to repeat

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That doesn't really answer my question. What credentials do you have to show that you have any real idea what you're talking about? Are you a music journalist or scholar? Does your work get published by a reasonable outlet? If you do, how can you show it? If not, your personal research is invalid and

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This is an old discussion, but several journalist opinions erroneously referring to something doesn't make it objective or factual; it only means there's a common misconception. Several of the above links are examples of how Deftones doesn't fit the subgenre or have been unfairly lumped together with

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Well, okay. I'm aware. I said that. Should I have edited the archived discussion? My point is, "nu metal" classification is already included and even discussed in detail under the "Styles and Influences" section of the article. I am certainly not trying to completely censor or whitewash the fact that

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I know that, apparently, this was just discussed recently, but hear me out. If we are aiming for "generality" in the genre boxes, why don't we just leave "alternative metal" and "experimental rock" in the box rather than putting such an ill-defined and controversial term as "nu metal" in the box with

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lists Soundgarden and Temple of the Dog as Associated Acts for Audioslave, despite there only being one common member (Chris Cornell). Also, three of the four bands I listed in the first sentence have Deftones listed in their respective Associated Acts section. I believe this should be discussed and

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If anyone would like to gather up all the different sources that really discuss the genre of Deftones and organize them here on the talkpage, that would be very appreciated. I've been thinking of doing the same recently, but finding my time right now very limited. This seems to be a recurring issue,

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Numerous internet sources confirm that Garcia was the original bass player. When drummer Cunningham left in 1990 to start Phallucy, Garcia switched to drums and Cheng joined on bass. He was only the drummer for a short period before leaving to join Cunningham in Phallucy, and was replaced by Taylor.

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Many of those examples are not specifically music journalists, and several back up the claim that they're exceptions to the genre anyway. They're also from nearly a decade ago, and we have a lot more resources now to determine accurate musical analysis. For example, modern metalcore has a completely

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Furthermore, "nu metal" is already included under the "Styles and Influences" section of the article, which seems like a perfect compromise. Otherwise, by putting "nu metal" in the box, you open the door for the inclusion in the info box of various genres and sub genres with which Deftones have also

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brought up a good point in that shoegaze is better supported as a genre than experimental rock in this article, but Deftones' style is denser than any band I've ever worked with on Knowledge and it's extremely difficult to encompass. Thus, I think consensus should be the only way we make any change

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I'm more concerned that whoever did the sources for that thought that a million sources helps "decide" what genres bands belong to. We should really focus on articles or whatnot that go more into detail about why the Deftones fit into specific genres instead of just ones that list them "The nu-jazz

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My overriding feeling is that the whole genre thing is just not that important. There are so many other things needing improvement in this article. The musical style and influences section is mostly overwhelming and unhelpful at the moment. I think it needs to be reduced to the most salient points

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My other thought whilst going through these is that so many of these sources are just describing a single song or album. I think many of them could just be moved to the individual album pages. There are very few sources in here that are trying to describe their sound as a whole (which is what this

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We are not here to try and figure out what the band's genre is based on what their music sounds like. Instead, we are here to tell the reader what is being said about the band in the literature. If someone wants to argue for a change in the genre, they will have to discuss the proposal in terms of

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nu metal; few deny this, and a great many assert this. Around 2000 they changed their genre, turning away from nu metal. Nevertheless, the specific genre was heavily applied to them in the '90s, so I see no reason to waffle about it and hide under the umbrella of alt metal. The guideline says "aim

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I think the lead genre should be "rock" instead of "alternative metal" in the lead sentence if this article and all Deftones related article. They are described as many other rock genres. In the infobox experimental rock, art rock, and shoegaze are listed. These are rock genres, bit metal genres.

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in the article. Since Knowledge does not recognize "art metal" as a real genre, however, I think it shouldn't be listed as a primary genre mentioned in the musical style section, and certainly not in the infobox. But I think maybe we could mention it in the "notes." Replace one reference for "art

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None of the three references for shoegaze currently in the article say, "Deftones is a shoegaze band." The first says their music contains "measured touches" of shoegaze and glitch-hop. The second is a quote from the lead singer of Chvrches giving her own personal opinion on what Deftones' music

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myself too much here, but I feel as though my points are being glossed over for the sake of protecting an arbitrary rule (which is contradicted on its very same page) that completely defeats the info box's sole purpose. I am genuinely shocked I'm getting so much pushback on this here and at the

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Why are the references for multiple genres all lumped together? Like, for example, "progressive rock and progressive metal, post-rock, metalgaze or post-metal" and "trip hop and glitch hop" -- these are different forms of music. "Metalgaze" is a neologism and redirects to "post-metal", which is

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This shows that the nu metal genre continues to be discussed in connection to the Deftones. Their 2013 concert dates were discussed as part of a nu metal revival. Even the sources which say that Deftones should not have been labeled nu metal acknowledge that it was indeed applied to them. Where

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I've fixed the art metal dab link to point to the art rock article, as it seems that's the way it's being used in the sources, and there may actually be more support for the wording of "art metal" vs "art rock". If it shouldn't be up there at all, that is a very different discussion, however.

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an "abundance" of sources for experimental rock. Really, I think we should either find more (starting with the one I mentioned) or remove it from the infobox, whichever is better, and follow this suggested practice more closely with the others as well. I think once, in recent years, I heard a

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section above. While I am aware that many pages do enforce this for the sake of decluttering or general by-the-book rule enforcement, just as many do not, either for a lack of knowing that guideline or outright disregarding it. I've actually started the process of discussion to challenge this

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I have begun whittling these down and splitting them where necessary to reduce repetition and remove the weaker references. I think a few could even be nixed entirely (eg. the references to "atmospheric" are fairly weak/unimportant when we already have 3 things saying "ambient"). -

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the most appropriate genre for this band. Simply putting "rock" as their main genre is extremely broad and indescriptive. At that point, you'd be throwing Deftones into the same pool as Neil Diamond and the Beach Boys. I think you should leave it as it is. We both know that if you

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for the same perfectly logical reason. I mean, if you want to stick to your guns and go ask permission to delete those, be my guest. I assumed the whole point in the infobox entirely was to provide quick and pertinent information and details so the reader wouldn't

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Rock is just more broad and appropriate for the lead. I am leaving this message because I'm sure at some point a consensus was made regarding the lead genre. I want to hear what others think. If no one responds within a week, I'll go ahead and make the changes.

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You see, that's exactly my point. Chino is the lead singer and songwriter. I'd say his other bands where he does the same thing are a pretty big, valid association. You know, the same way Soundgarden is listed as an associated act for Audioslave on their page

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I don't see why there's any opposition to including shoegaze in the infobox aside from not wanting to clutter it up with too many genres. Plenty of the band's catalogue can be described as such, and it's a more concisely defined genre than experimental rock.

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I hate to start yet another genre discussion, but I'm just curious as to other people's idea of where one would hypothetically place "art metal" or "art-metal" in the article. The term comes up again and again throughout the years in reference to Deftones:

1301:. "Deftones were perhaps the most respected act of the nu metal genre, so much so that their fans will angrily insist that they never belonged to such a scene. But the band's music is unmistakably rap metal, it just so happens that it's pretty awesome too." 1765:

Taylor stayed on drums until Cunningham returned in 1993. Alas, these sources aren't useable as references, I think. Finding better sources may be hard as this very early period of the band is long before they got any press attention.

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and having something neatly organized to point to might prevent future genre warring, rather than simply the lists of hundreds of sources referring to the styles that are used by the band on specific tracks or albums and whatnot.

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It is unclear exactly what change you are requesting here. Is this just an observation? If so, what's the notability? Toggling request. Please consider reformatting the request in a "Change X to Y" format for clarity.

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shows the band Audioslave which lists both Soundgarden and Temple of the Dog as Associated Acts, both of whom only share one member to Audioslave, namely Chris Cornell. This contradicts the guideline detailed in the

1323:. Regarding the Deftones' "Back to School": "One of Nu Metal’s more subtle jams... The ‘tones eventually moved way past the Nu Metal blueprint, but this is still one of their best loved and most iconic jams." 3524:

On another note, I'm now noticing the support for "experimental rock" is (currently) quite poor. While it does satisfy what Fezmar outlined above, only one record is reliably and explicitly sourced this way

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not acceptable as evidence to your claim. And even if you do have credentials, my point might be entirely moot because you I doubt you'd be able to publish your own work in here due to conflict of interest.

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every other day. Also, this is kind of a weird thing for someone of your tenure to want to do and your last couple of posts have a lot of typos in them, which is also uncharacteristic of you. Are you okay?

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been associated. Meanwhile, "alternative metal" and "experimental rock" are inclusive and general enough to capture almost any genre or sub genre that has been ascribed to the band, including "nu metal".

1911:? I suppose it's not incredibly vital to the article, but it seems like its usage in reference to Deftones has only increased. I'm just curious what others think of the genre label's place in the article. 2463: 1412: 3086:

I appreciate your willingness to discuss this. I cannot participate fully at the moment, but I will offer two thoughts: the Temple of the Dog example is in fact relevant, you are overlooking that

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Where in the article does it say that he ever played drums? And where's a source saying he did? The only thing that says he played drums right now is the timeline. Unless I missed something.

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It needs a clean-up and is sourced poorly in the article. Just listing stuff they have been called ____(ninteen sources here) does not really help a user understand how their music sounds.

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Doesn't appear to meet the standards. It is a profile page of DJ Epik under control of the artist, making it a SPS. That would be considered to be a reliable source for DJ Epik per

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credit him with any guitar work? We can resolve a particular tag in the article rather easily if they do. I could ask the same thing about Annalynn Cunningham's participation in

3047:. It helps people casually browsing the band's page find other associated material; that's the whole point. I understand that there is only one common member per band as per the 2473: 1070:

for generality" but the specificity of nu metal is so widely supported that we would be wrong to ignore it. We can say "nu metal (early)" if that helps the bitter pill go down.

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Anyway, the fact that a few people keep complaining about the "nu metal" genre being listed in the infobox does not mean we should allow it to be removed. The band certainly

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to it. It's been a while since any proposition has been brought forward with any substance, and I want to make sure we have a good representation for the proposed change.

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Progressive rock is a genre driven by technical structures, and a mixture of jazz and classical music defined by artists Frank Zappa, King Crimson, ELP, Genesis and Rush.

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if there is a lack of input within a certain time. I appreciate Knowledge's standards and those like you who take the time to uphold them, but I honestly feel that the

1523:, by moving the references into the Notes section. This is the best solution I could think of for this particular situation at the moment, but ideally we should follow 3625: 3670: 2464:

https://web.archive.org/web/20071209103831/http://www.grammy.com:80/GRAMMY_Awards/Winners/Results.aspx?title=&winner=deftones&year=0&genreID=0&hp=1

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3 sources and split and/or reduced them to a maximum of 3 citations. I think there is still loads more that could move to album articles or be omitted entirely. -

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enough in my opinion to be more prominent than the numerous other portions of the band's sound. In addition, at least two albums are described as shoegaze (

3094:, and notifying the relevant WikiProjects of this discussion. Personally, I'm flexible on the issue, but every act I've edited which maintains high quality 1230:. "One of the leading acts of the 'nu metal' movement of the mid-late nineties, Cheng's bass playing can be heard on such early Deftones classics as 1995's 3690: 3650: 939: 929: 657: 647: 382:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or 3055:

and many (if not most) other band pages tend to ignore this particular bullet point since it's rather arbitrary and defeats the purpose. In fact, on the

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https://web.archive.org/web/20090510070709/http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/deftones/articles/story/5925471/the_deftones_add_new_single_to_white_pony

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That last discussion should not have been archived so soon, which is why I turned off the bot just now. The page can be manually archived quite easily.

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http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/esearch/chart_display.jsp?cfi=294&cfgn=Albums&cfn=Heatseekers&ci=3026126&cdi=7158391&cid=02/01/1997

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Well, Deftones has been refferred as a nu metal band, altough I don't approve it. Maybe some coverage should be added, that the genre is under dispute

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On second thought, I may have you mixed up with someone else. But anyway, Deftones are definitely an alternative metal band; I wouldn't change it.

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Okay, I concede. I got nowhere with my case over at the Template talk page and it seems as though I'll do just as well here. Thanks for your time.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20080401051343/http://www.rollingstone.com:80/artists/deftones/articles/story/5934207/deftones_turn_it_up_on_lovers

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https://web.archive.org/web/20100808225931/http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=426076934&blogId=496618043

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https://web.archive.org/web/20100330003528/http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=135588

3680: 2236: 1208:. "...of all the bands that were – fairly or unfairly – cast as nu-metal acts, the Deftones is the one that might have 'aged' the best." 288: 3352:

I'm indifferent. I can see the benefit of "rock", but also agree there is overwhelming consensus they are primarily alternative metal.

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http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/culture/2012/07/6321566/streets-your-town-weeks-concerts-amadou-mariam-xx-sigur-r%C3%B3s-and-more

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contributor mention that this style needs re-done, perhaps this would make a good opportunity to re-tool the section and tune it up.

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what the literature is saying now and has said in the past. I don't see any such discussion here yet, so nothing is going to happen.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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Maybe, we need to write about demo-album Like (Linus) 1993 and their style of that time. The article hasn't information about it.

497:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to 3600: 2777: 896: 857: 818: 608: 569: 44: 3177: 3143: 3138: 3133: 3129: 3060: 3048: 2884:

https://web.archive.org/web/20121022170429/http://www.villagevoice.com/2011-05-04/voice-choices/deftones-dillinger-escape-plan/

2483: 2447: 1979: 541: 493: 456: 451: 276: 99: 30: 2977: 1283: 1171:. Staff review at Sputnik Music. "Out of all nu-metal bands that went platinum in the late 1990s, Deftones are truly unique." 104: 20: 1645: 1312:

magazine. "Syncopated riffs, big pants, and goofy band names are nu-metal trademarks, and Deftones initially fit the bill."

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So what's everyone think of the new lead first paragraph? Just added 1100 bytes to it, dunno about how well it's written.

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genre discussion. Evidently, this has been discussed lenghtly beforehand, as seen on the archives and most recently on

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http://www.grammy.com/GRAMMY_Awards/Winners/Results.aspx?title=&winner=deftones&year=0&genreID=0&hp=1

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also plays for Soundgarden. Second, if you hope to gain real traction on the debate, I would recommend opening a

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

1186:, offers a solid example of what set Deftones apart from their nu-metal peers in the late '90s and early 2000s." 239: 1018: 230: 1347: 1146: 2458:

http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/deftones/articles/story/5925471/the_deftones_add_new_single_to_white_pony

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Is there any evidence he ever did this? He is not credited with this on any record he played on, only here.

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want to do? So, it's weird when editors who have been on Knowledge for a while want to make minor changes?

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Thank you for responding! As for your first thought, I think you may have misread. The example given on the

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http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/watch-deftones-debut-heavy-winding-new-song-doomed-user-live-20160307

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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I don't have a physical copy of the album, so someone will need to check for me: Do the liner notes for

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