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I think the last three sources directly support the statements. The LOC gives the definition of
Holodomor denial, and the Dobczansky paper discusses it in a secondary source. The Serbyn article discusses denial of the genocidal nature. These should be satisfactory at least to support the text. If you
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Michael is an admin, which imply some above-average familiarity with our behavioral rules. And he is expected to know know that false accusation of canvassing is a personal attack. Therefore, I think
Michael should strike his accusation and explicitly apologize for knowingly violating our behavioral
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Given that I showed that you're reverting to return your edit against 4 editors, you really should just remove Serby and try to build consensus for lead changes in the talk. Your edits are very edit wary. Please show some consideration for other editors and not continuously revert to defend your own
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I think this is necessary, because without this the definition “ Holodomor denial . . . is the claim that the
Holodomor . . . did not occur” is completely inadequate and compromises the article. Deniers have stopped claiming that no famine occurred since the 1980s. But they continue to be active and
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page provides a sourced explanation. This is the rejection of basic facts and concepts that are undisputed, well-supported parts of the scientific consensus on a subject. Based on that, Duranty and Tottle were indeed historical denialists with regard to
Holodomor, and they have been described as
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And, as soon as my attention has been drawn to this topic, let me explain that not only Serbyn, but all other sources, except LOC have been used incorrectly in the lede. Indeed, all of them just confirm that the very fact of
Holodomor was denied by Soviet authorities and by some authors. However,
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You're completely ignoring that you've reverted to return your edit 4 times against 4 editors. It's not up to me to prove that your source isn't relevant for the lead, it's for you to make consensus for your edit in the Talk. I wish you'd show some consideration for the editors and administrators
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And the last few paragraphs of Serbyn’s 1989 article also discuss the historiographical change of the time: the newly open legitimate debate of the famine as genocide, contrasted with the new character of denial. He refers not only to Tottle but to contemporary
Holodomor deniers in general. His
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Most of the rest of the article discusses the Tottle denialism, and is too specific for the lead, but of course it is directly relevan, too. Tottle’s Soviet-funded and -authored work represents the exact crux when Moscow’s campaign of denialism shifted from famine denial, quickly to denial of
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Also please add a quote to the source on how it says "Holodomor denialis the claim that the
Holodomor, a 1932–33 man-made famine that killed millions in Soviet Ukraine, did not occur or diminishing its scale and significance". Because, as I put in the edit, such a sentence is not there. Thank
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Sorry, I'm on mobile this very second, so I didn't write as eloquently as I wished I did. I meant that you hadn't gotten one supportive second editor, despite two posts to the
Reliable Sources Noticeboard, and adding a paragraph to the lead really should get consensus of other editors per
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Trying to use sources that refer to
Holodomor as either a broad Ukrainian cultural Genocide, a deliberate famine on the Ukraine, or as a famine not intentionally caused and then using that to claim scholarly consensus on the definition that best suits your POV is Righting Great
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The source is already cited in the article. Since you object to it in the lead, I’ll put it in the body. Since you object to a link to an online version, I’ll just cite the source. I think your baseless obstruction is making the article worse than it would be otherwise.
1231:, credulous and dishonest intellectuals like the British writer Bernard Shaw, the French politician Edouard Herriot). It took fifty years to debunk their big lie; how long will it take the defenders of truth to dispose of the big lie promoted by Tottle
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is key. Serbyn 1989 makes it clear that
Holodomor denial includes denial that it is genocide. Dobczansky 2009 makes it clear that there is no confusion between academic debate about the determination of the Holodomor as genocide and Holodomor denial.
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You summarized your removal with: “This source test, in its entirety, is a general review of Douglas Tottle's book Fraud, Famine and Fascism. It is not an effort to describe general Holodomor denial. It's not helped by being reprinted by a
1743:. Why did you revert me with “Reverting the last addition. It seems a bit much to include this in the lead after two posts to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. Please gain consensus of other editors in the talk page before adding. Thanks”?
833:, a collaborative effort to improve Knowledge (XXG)'s coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the
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Neither of them did, although GreenC's comment was a bit more supportive that others should "read it". No one said it was reliable. Your second post got zero replies, so instead of dropping it, you reinsert a paragraph back into the
1500:, an apology for tedious editing would be appreciated, for no other reason that I'd like not to have to go through this again. I would not bring another editor through this hassle, and it's unfair for you to bring us through it.
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You’re right that the source and statement don’t go together well. I don’t believe this was what I originally wrote in the article either. I believe this is my preferred edit and version (after a quick search of the
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so please demonstrate consensus to remove it before doing so. There is no objection to it. Even Stix1776 hasn’t made any concrete objection to it, but merely tried to remove it because they don’t like the facts it
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Hi. Your first link is broken. If you want to talk about the procedure, then it would be helpful to collect the diffs with edit summaries of the deletions that I reverted, and links to any discussions that
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Well, perhaps that aspect is not necessarily defining but part of diminishment. Certainly Holodomor denial literature does deny its genocidal nature without allowing for academic debate on the question.
1044:. It seems especially unfair that editors need to go through this effort when you should be the one defending your addition to the lead in the talk, not us having to go to the talk to remove your edit.
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We all have biases but we need to have the introspection and self control to look inwards at our biases and converse with peers to try to be as little influenced by our biases as possible on this site
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In the light of all the evidence we now possess on the famine, how bleak and ignoble appear the statements of genocide deniers of the Stalin era (unscrupulous journalists like Walter Duranty of the
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I fixed the link. I asked for a quote from the Serby to back up the the text and the lead from you, and I didn't get it. No one is able to judge the OR claims, as you're claiming an entire article.
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work. You can’t just name three other editors who aren’t here and claim to speak for them making you a one-person majority. I’ve replied to this further in your separate thread on my talk page.  —
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such in sources. Just to clarify, there is a general consensus that the famine was "man-made" . Someone denying this like Tottle is a denialist. However, the question if it was a
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are the spiritual heirs of the first famine negators, Stalin and those who helped him carry out the most heinous of crimes against the Ukrainian nation or to deny its existence.
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Additionally in these arguments you make arguments against sources that you believe may have USSR or Russian ties while also arguing explicitly for sources from Ukrainian ties.
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If some fact X was denied by some authors, and that fact is verifiably described by sources A, B, and C, that does not allow use the sources A,B, and C for the statement like:
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Knowledge (XXG) is NOT for righting great wrongs. And the disrespect for wikipedia's policy and violation of the revision rules really shows that you aren't keeping NPOV.
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SYNTH removed. The refs do not use the term "Holodomor denial" as a separate term. LOC says nothing about genocide. Serbin does not use the term "Holodomoir denial"
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I apologize for the cursory revert. I should have looked more closely at the text, which had been changed from my version. I think the text can be improved instead.
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for referencing, I think we can cite him. If it is about what constitutes "denial" in this case, I think one should follow the definition what "denialism" is. Our
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it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it be done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion
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did not occur, or (especially since evidence of its existence became public in the 1980s) the diminishment of its scale and significance, including the
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If you refuse to see this source’s relevance to the definition of the subject, then we appear to be at an impasse, and I suggest you proceed with
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there is so much written by them and about them that LOC created two new subject headings in 2009. So our definition should not leave this out.
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to Academia, and it was posted there by the author and presumably copyright holder, so please do not remove it without justification either.
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Additionally you explicitly call that dertain things should or shouldn't be included in the article based on combating the "big lie".
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I'm not relitigating the LOC source. It was three editors against Mzajac. Bring up an RfC if you wish to push this issue.
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Since we’re canvassing, other editors previously discussing the definition of the subject or the mentioned sources: @
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The comment by whatamIdoing showed general support, and the comment by GreenC specifically supported the paper.
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Part of the above wasn’t settled, so I’ve posted another discussion specifically about the Dobczansky paper at
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The big lie has shifted from denying famine to denying genocide. Holodomor genocide denial is Holodomor denial.
539:(USSR) on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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It's not published or self-published on academia.edu merely hosted there. If you like you can remove the URL—
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That is a chemically pure example of synthesis. And, frankly speaking, the whole article is a synthesis.
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Please, correct me if I am wrong, but the accusation of canvassing is a pure personal attack. First, per
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You haven’t said why you oppose this source or the cited statement. I guess you just don’t want it.  —
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Understanding might require reading the source, but here are some key parts of the Serbyn article:
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This is not a reason. There was no objection and positive remarks about this source at the RSN.  —
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This mirrors what I said about your source. I would never put another editor through this tedium.
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they do not speak about that fact as about some separate phenomenon called "denial of Holodomor".
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that need to deal with this edit warring. Honestly I wouldn't put you through this. Thanks.
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Does the Reliable Source noticeboard ruling that academia.edu isn't reliable mean nothing?
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Yes, can you please include a doi or some way of linking to the actual article. Thanks.
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exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
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These objections without any basis are obstruction and they are getting disruptive.  —
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No longer able to negate the famine as such, Tottle questions its genocidal character
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I’d prefer to cite the original, but I don’t have access, and this is sufficient.  —
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In reality, not such topic (outside of the LOC catalogue) exists in literature.
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would be a more legitimate dispute, and we have a separate page about it.
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is not a blog entry. It’s a republished text that’s cited at the bottom:
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man-made causes, denial of genocidal intent, and denial of genocide.
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Regarding “It's not helped by being reprinted by a blog”: the source
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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
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I am not sure what you guys disagree about. If it is about using
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Denial of X is the claims that X never occurred (ref A, B, C).
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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and claim to speak for them making you a one-person majority.
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Firstly, the article has been cited here for seven years,
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962 Bloor Street West, Toronto, Ontario, Canada M6H 1L6
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On 26 May 2022, it was proposed that this article be
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I support including the source in the article. I'll
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Science and education in Russia task force articles
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Michael you keep showing POV here as well as Synth.
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But it might be more useful to talk about the lead.
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1534:Roman Serbyn
1484:Paul Siebert
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1306:
1299:WP:CONSENSUS
1260:
1243:a short one?
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1103:Cite error:
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672:project page
667:
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546:Soviet Union
530:
493:Soviet Union
465:
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369:WikiProjects
326:
316:
269:Please stay
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30:This is the
1841:WP:LEADBOMB
1559:Yes, denial
1385:TimothyBlue
1369:K.e.coffman
1365:Davide King
659:WikiProject
615:Start‑class
159:free images
42:not a forum
1999:Categories
1958:WP:CONLINK
1669:2023-01-16
1628:References
1434:WP:CANVASS
1105:There are
835:discussion
331:discussion
321:discussion
1949:supports.
1938:blindlynx
1902:WP:BOLDly
1711:RSN again
1538:Denialism
1420:AevumNova
1357:Blindlynx
1353:AevumNova
1224:summary:
1111:help page
1090:Holodomor
1080:history):
1064:followed.
971:Archive 6
966:Archive 5
961:Archive 4
954:Archive 3
949:Archive 2
944:Archive 1
283:consensus
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
1924:Stix1776
1881:Stix1776
1851:Stix1776
1805:Stix1776
1769:Stix1776
1741:Stix1776
1543:genocide
1502:Stix1776
1448:words: "
1361:Cloud200
1339:Stix1776
1281:Stix1776
1183:Stix1776
1050:Stix1776
999:182 days
932:Archives
307:deletion
230:182Â days
197:Archives
67:get help
40:This is
38:article.
1966:Michael
1920:CJ-Moki
1906:CJ-Moki
1867:Michael
1823:Michael
1791:Michael
1749:Michael
1722:Michael
1605:Michael
1567:Michael
1406:Wrongs.
1390:Michael
1381:Qayqran
1308:Michael
1262:Michael
1158:Michael
867:on the
722:on the
607:History
573:on the
468:on the
441:Ukraine
432:Ukraine
388:Ukraine
359:B-class
165:WPÂ refs
153:scholar
1896:Mzajac
1735:Revert
1498:Mzajac
1460:rules.
1444:Mzajac
1301:, and
1295:WP:BRD
1276:Mzajac
1178:edits.
1172:Mzajac
1094:famine
1074:blog.”
1022:Mzajac
681:Russia
663:Russia
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365:scale.
137:Google
1836:lead.
1303:WP:DR
1257:WP:3O
1253:WP:DR
1033:three
1029:three
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899:from
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700:Start
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180:JSTOR
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1855:talk
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