2134:, I was thinking something similar but I came across a dilemma. The part of the sentence itself that mentions *dermatrophy could be cut out with ..., but I am not sure if that would make sense. Alternatively, if the entire quote is left out it leaves a verified chunk of Bell's reasoning out of the article, which comes off as "sweeping it under the rug". The article already mentions that it does engage that behavior with its young, which Bell acknowledges as a foundation of his gesture alongside burrowing and poor vision. For your option you mentioned considering reliable sources, I don't know what would qualify besides an online medical dictionary I found. Articles I find mentioning the dermophis genus doing such a thing are all about the news itself - and again incorrectly mentioning "dermatrophy" as if it's a real thing as described, which is concerning but unsurprising, and a reason I see that the mistake should be noted. As it stands, there is misinformation spreading. What to do?--
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1725:, oh well, I see then how that may fit...reviewing the etymology part I can view it as less relevant than I initially thought. However, at least the "dermatrophy" part Bell describes is just plain wrong. The closest known term for a creature getting its skin eaten by its young is dermatophagy, which usually describes a human eating his own skin. If we just leave it in - and the rest of his quote is directly relevant and connected to his accusations and reasons for the name - that is very misleading to readers. Surely at least that deserves some kind of mention? I have seen featured articles that have done this before in some way.--
1824:ÂĄ, you have a soothing way with words. I probably am overanalyzing a lot here, a bad habit of mine sometimes. This really all does draw back though, to me anyway, the "purpose" of this article. It's a proposed name for a species based on an expensive political gesture. It just feels awkward and in a sort of grey area though. Let it be is a wise path I suppose until we get an update, but right now I just don't know what impression this article is giving off, as if it's a legitimate thing. I don't know if this kind of case has been encountered before, I just feel like something needs to be done with it, but I'm ready to give up...--
2082:, seems like I'll need your wisdom once more. I took your advice and thought about what I could do for the article, and I restored the "dermatrophy" part of the press release quote (see recent edits and summary). I believe it is necessary to include as part of Bell's reasoning for the name, and I believe not including it because of the fictitious term is against NPOV (as if his words need to be polished or hidden for image, see replies above for EPA resolution). I think my current revision is neutral and optimal and in the article's best interest, but I would appreciate your input please.--
1402:
saying that a name that is not a scientific name must NOT be italicized, though if it were a higher-rank taxonomic name (family, order, phylum, etc.) then the rule does specify non-italics. As such, a "proposed name" falls into a gray area in the rules, and my inclination would be to either not italicize it until it has been formally published, or to put the name in quotes. Realistically, as noted, until it's been published it has no more scientific validity than "Speedipus rex" from the WB Roadrunner cartoons, or "Draco conflagratio horribilis" from D&D, and using italics
1928:, many articles use to note quotes as they were transcribed with no problem. Calling the EPA the Environment Agency is a colloquial mistake, likely from a slip or contortion of memory, but should be left alone. Yes, my first attempt with the article went extreme with the tags and I wasn't thinking straight, however you just are going to the other end of the spectrum now. If anything, excessively fixing the quote text can be seen as POV in itself - like we are trying to polish it - except for minor typographical errors, the text should be preserved as transcribed for
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1587:, what was wrong with the notes I gave? Bell's quotations, which are necessarily central to the references and evidence of this article within its context, are full of errors which need to be pointed out. There is no such thing as "dermatrophy" referring to skin being eaten and "caecilian" is descended from "caecus" but only by a fair etymological distance. A very many articles contain such distinctive notes as I have put in, and they are directly relevant in my view, and they maintain NPOV. What issue do you take with them?--
1796:, I suspect that part of the problem here is that some editors are trying to describe this species in a very scientific way, but the scientific resources to do so simply aren't available. All we have available at this point are popular media sources, which can be less than ideal for this purpose. If there are details in the media or in the press release that don't make sense scientifically, we'll need to either leave those details out or find other creative ways of dealing with it without violating our prohibition on
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the base of article. I do not see in any way how leaving these in carte-blanche is anything but detrimental and misleading for readers, and I certainly don't see how this is OR and needs to be tossed out entirely instead of maybe trimming the fat. I feel that I'm keeping within the spirit of
Knowledge by pointing these out; if you want an example of an article I made with notes like these that was peer reviewed by a user recently, please see
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3189:, do you think this particular name is ever going to be published? It's pretty clear Envirobuild's reasoning for naming is intended to give offense (contrary to the ICodeZN's code of ethics). And even if they're not concerned about offending Trump or the code of ethics, the taxonomists who would actually be publishing the name might not want to give a name that is "just mean to the creature". 21:48, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
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1686:(some similar examples are provided at that link). Now if there were an article somewhere explaining the etymology of the name and how it relates to this species, we could include it, providing a consensus of editors found it relevant and useful. But none of us should pretend to editorialize this ourselves and present our own research. Does that help?
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1849:, no, don't give up. I believe you're right that we are in uncharted territory here, and your insight is very helpful. It's relatively simple to regurgitate facts, but to create an article that's really thought-provoking and interesting (kind of in the style of the species name in the first place) is an art form. Keep thinking and sharing.
1617:. Usually I'd suggest you find another source pointing out the error. In this case, since the source is a press release, we really shouldn't be using it anyway except to summarize/paraphrase it a bit for its own content, not as a fact source; if we think it uses some words incorrectly, then we should just leave that stuff out.
1873:, Thank you very much, I'll need to mull over what you said as I sleep. This fascinating case could set a precedent that I'd be honored to partake in. I'll try what I can to find what little further info there is out there. Tomorrow I'll review an idea I had for this, thank you for your input with all this.-
3204:
Fair question, but I don't know who the people are who are preparing the description, and only they would know what's going on. The one thing I will say is that it sounds like there was some sort of contractual agreement, so it SHOULD be getting published. If the winning bidder has refused to pay the
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The quote provides necessary context though. Remember that almost if not every reference used on this article revolves around Bell and his words. For imstance, the nepotism accusation-comnevtion makes no sense without his quote and needs to be mentioned anyway relating to how and why the species was
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Many people would consider donaldtrumpi is just as much of a farce as Road Runner, just slightly less expensive. Objectively speaking, until it is published this is not a real species whatosever, it is meaningless and a political gesture. I know it gets philosophical here but that's the truth. When
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Thank you very much! That's an excellent addition and I hope you are as satisfied with it as I am. I may start that article as well. I wonder though, I'm just making sure, should the clarification you added about dermatotrophy stay in the main text or be formatted as a s Ed crooned note? And do you
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imply that the claim is wrong, but it's not spelled out in the article. If so, I'd say we have two choices - explain the inaccuracy using reliable sources, or leave the quote out entirely. The subject of the article has to be the species itself, and our efforts should be aimed at providing the best
1551:
Honestly, I think the best approach is to not get over-analytical about this, and hopefully the actual paper will come out soon. If it weren't for people foolishly making press releases and such in advance of actually doing the science, and
Wikipedians pouncing on things that aren't ready for prime
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is federal. Italics gives off an impression to the average reader that this is a legitimate species, and while its status is pending, I believe italics is arguably POV in this case. I can certainly see why it's a grey area for many, but it's just not registered and, as others have said on this page
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Perhaps I should have posted this comment in that section, but I don't think the issue is resolved at all. The example given in the MOS of a "derived" name refers to a band named after a species, which is not the same thing at all. This name is not derived from anything â it is the Latin name of a
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I do agree that I did go a bit overboard with the s like with the "Caecilians is" instance, which looking back how some sources don't have it is anew irrelevant typo. However, in the case of Bell's etymology and the use of "dermatrophy" is crucial to his words as used by the listed references for
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The sentence ought to be written about the organism, not the individual, the use of citations to snicker and guffaw at each comparison is OR, inappropriate, and puerile. The cited articles mention the comparisons, that allows a separate sentence, maybe a quotation; the content is currently serving
2179:
Well that's good then, though do you mean a source that explains the process of dermophis with its3young, or a source explaining that "dermatrophy" is just the thinning of the skin, or something else? If the latter, there is already online medical dictionaries I can cite that define dermatrophia
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I don't have a firm position, but the history shows that others thought it best left off. The italic, in one sense, is a reference to the published description, which as I understand it this is not. Not accepted yet, not even published, any proposal is cited from sources that are not RS for this
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That's irrelevant, media outlets (currently almost the only sources for it) provide a mix of italicized and non-italicized text. This name is in a grey area and there is, as far as any objectivity is concerned, the same level of reality to this as the Road Runner is "Speedibus rex" as was noted
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As a
Commissioner of the ICZN (which oversees the formation and publication of zoological names), I'll reinforce that there ARE rules about this, but the rule in this case is essentially asymmetrical. That is, if it's a scientific name, the genus and species MUST be italicized. There is no rule
1705:
That's a good summary. If for some reason we can't avoid using a source's words, and there's an error in them of the type you seem to be pointing out, then we're in a bit of a quandary. But to add quotations just so you can point out they're wrong, when no source has done so, is completely
1437:, a nearly blind âŚ" Now what is a good term for the description, "Dermophis donaldtrumpi is about 10 cm (4 in) long âŚ" I nearly added "said to be", but that doesn't weaken the authority enough. Adding the quotes at description conveys some doubt too, if others favour that as a solution.
1475:, pardon, if I'd known or remembered it was there before i would have asked first (my head is full of the taxonomy of bats today, literally and figuratively). I reverted that, and will cede to consensus or authority on this, but I sense there something amiss in what the article asserts.
1529:, should the unclear status of donaldtrumpi concerning italicization be denoted in the text? (i.e. "Considering the status, the name should be left without italics even though many references erroneously do so" to give a sloppy example)? Or is the lack of italics self-evident enough?--
2399:. Feel free to expand it - you likely have more experience in this area than I. As for this article, I think this edit fixes the issue of the erroneous press release and the unexplained "sic", and provides more information about the subject, but I'm open to what others think as well.
984:
It doesn't seem like the present content is inaccurate, so long as the validity of the taxon is being disclaimed appropriately. I am concerned about subsequent edits removing the disclaimer, though, or trying to link this page to the
Dermophis article. That needs to be avoided.
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that describes this behaviour in another species of caecilian. It uses the term "dermatophagous" to describe the behaviour. What do you think of removing the erroneous part of the quote, and adding a sentence about this behaviour being described in other species of caecilians?
2614:
Words which have gained widespread use in
English are typically not italicized, but that is obviously not the case here. Nor is this a "non-biological context" as there is detailed biological information starting with the first sentence, unlike your "T. Rex the band" example.
1657:, you were very helpful last time with me concerning this page, and have been active on this talk (and even convinced me to drop the XRD so I'm not biased). Could you please offer your views on this matter? Were my notes an improvement to the article in any way?--
935:
As such, all the editing and addition of content is extremely premature. Until it's formally published, the name has just as much validity as a "scientific name" as Chuck Jones' use of "Speedipus rex" as a "scientific name" in the
Roadrunner cartoons.
1747:
The derma stuff isn't in the article now and doesn't need to be. The article already makes the point that the name was inspired by Trump's behavior and policies, and extensive quoting of the press release isn't needed beyond that, and would likely be
2854:, I can't find any policy or guideline that supports your position. This is an article about a species. The fact that the species has not been formally published is important (and duly noted in the lede), but it does not detract from the species'
1193:
I would support using italics. I'm not able to find a source that says italics should not be used for proposed species, and considering reliable sources use italics for this species, I think that's what we should use as well. Courtesy pinging
3007:, I have an idea. Can you find any updates at all to this article and see if there has been any news about the species from which we can deduce from sources how to make this less controversial? I'm limited in what I can do right now sadly.--
2718:
Our style manual is not irrelevant for this article. Format in other media might be, since they don't all italicize the same way we do. Your Road Runner example is spurious, since that's an obvious farce. Stick to serious examples, please.
2000:
How context-dependent is supposed to be though? If
Environment Agency is indeed a common name in other Anglophone countries (if so this ought to be noted in the EPA article itself), then yes that's fine. If Bell referred to instead the
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policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or
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provided an interesting edit where he just removed the tag but left the text. Is the EPA really just called the
Environment Agency in foreign media? Even so, Bell is stationed in America so it still seems like a mistake. I'm just
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3205:$ 25,000 bid, then I would expect legal action to compel them to pay. If the fee was paid, and the scientists refused to publish the name, I would likewise expect legal action. It really would be nice to know what
1981:
The person who said it isn't from the U.S. "Environment Agency" is likely more recognizable to him than EPA. Is there any doubt as to what he meant? There's no reason to point out what isn't even much of an error.
2941:, infoboxes are placed at the discretion of the editors on the article (local consensus), and there is no requirement that we have an infobox. On the other hand, the use of italics is prescribed in the MOS.
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time (notability preceding verifiability), this would be a non-issue. Keep it simple, direct would-be editors to the talk page here, and hopefully it'll all blow over when something scientific is in print.
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Dermatotrophy, as seen in B. taitanus, is a highly unusual mode of parental care previously unknown in tetrapods, in which nutrient provisioning involves remarkable adaptations of both the mothers and the
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2421:, I disagree with turning this into a note. The article is about the species, not about the press release, and the sentence that is actually about the species shouldn't be relegated to the appendix.
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or within the quote, the former as resolved for the EPA part? Also apparently this doesn't exist yet as an article....although I just searched it and it is indeed a real and fairly accurate term!--
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I see what you mean, but what about the POV concerns? Does italicized text not implicitly prematurely legitimize the name? Not all news outlets italicized the name either, such as the India Times:
2554:, I thought this had already been settled above by the clause in the MoS that says "Derived uses in non-biological contexts are not italicized: The largest carnivore in family Tyrannosauridae was
1379:, oh yes the first italics was lost, fixed it sorry! Anyway I guest I rest my case here and don't have more to say, if anyone else wants to oppose it or leave it that's fine with me of course.--
2562:, please read the second sentence in particular; T. Rex is from Latin yet in that case is not italicized. Other words borrowed too aren't necessarily always italicized either, e.g. German
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2734:(or if) it gets published, then it can definitely be considered a scientific taxonomic name worthy of italicization. As is, it is just nonsense coined in English, not even Latin.--
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purpose, we should demur from implying it is a species. We should also give the person who removed it the opportunity to reply, the urgency for the DYK is unrelated to that.
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Sure nice that's fine I'd like to see your idea, edit it in right now if you want. I don't know how you want it formatted so you should do it how you think fits best--
1682:, if I read this correctly, we're quoting the person who named the species, and then we're providing our own analysis and commentary on his remarks. I would say that's
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https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/magazines/panache/meet-dermophis-donaldtrumpi-a-newly-discovered-amphibian-named-after-us-president-trump/articleshow/67156984.cms
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I think I am done with this article for now and also await other thoughts. Edit: I just saw your reply and that's fine, I'll undo it, I just was unsure about styling.-
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The right to name the species was auctioned off by the
Rainforest Trust for $ 25,000 and was purchased by the sustainable building materials company EnviroBuild.
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if "there is a significant error in the original statement" which this is not. It's a case of using different words for what is quite clearly the same thing.
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This has nothing to do with "legitimizing" the name as there isn't any other name for the thing. Italics indicate the words are binomial and not
English.
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1932:. I see my current revision as perfectly reasonable and in line with the MoS and Five Pillars. These are my only intentions and goals with the text.--
1453:
I'd removed the "a proposed name for" bit earlier as the article is about the species, not its name. I'm curious as to why you feel that bit belongs.
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before many times, should that be italicized too? Both that and this are obvious fake Latin names, coined in English itself.Edit conflict: I endorse
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Your "POV" concern seems to be only about the formal publication, which isn't relevant to italics, as noted above. Let's follow our guidelines.
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As it happens, I don't accept the contention that a binomial is Non-English. Systematic names were/are intended to be universal, not 'foreign'.
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I didn't think it is fake news - this is a speciality of an other guy, the species exists and the naming must only get though the peer review --
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2916:, if the standard rules and conventions apply to this article as with other species, then inter alia the infobox should be fully restored.--
2509:. There is no requirement in the manual of style for such species to be formally identified. Even if this isn't treated as a species name,
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The only thing unknown is the result of the peer review, an if the name changes it is easy to move the article to thge new name. --
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This sounds more like a political publicity stunt. All the references are from media and the company, no scientific publications.
1359:, don't quote the MOS to a wonk, sheesh! :) it appears to make an inappropriate contraction if the full name was not given, ie. "
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Stop your whining and fix it ⌠oh, you have! The only concern remaining is blind and sighted contradiction in the description.
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I meant that if there was updates about this then it can be more confidently formatted without concerns about POV and such.--
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those are formal, published species. This is not, its name is meaningless and has no worth. This is the crucial difference.--
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2160:, but the name "dermatrophy" is not (as it simply means thin skin). I'd like to find a reliable source that explained this.
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Further down in that article it does use the term "dermatotrophy", which is similar to the term used in the press release.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
1613:. Adding your opinion that a source is using a word incorrectly, based on your own research with dictionaries, is classic
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I have (third-hand) information that this is official, and I am trying to track it down and find a reference.
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I'm not sure how more sources would help this discussion. Either we follow the manual of style or we don't.
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please revert if you feel that is not needed. I will edit that article too thank you for starting it.
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Okay, I was just making sure. Thank you. I believe the current form as you put is acceptable.--
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and instead said "Urban Department" or something like that, would that merit a sic or no?--
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in any way. The standard rules and conventions regarding species apply to this article.
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exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
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Thank you for stating this. Should I tag for accuracy among its many other problems?--
438:. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the
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Dermophis is derived from Greek, not Latin. The closest parallel here is probably
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Should we be using italics for this proposed species name? Some articles do:
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I added a sentence to the article which I think resolves it. An article on
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when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
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is another case of something that looks like a scientific name but isn't.
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Until D. donaldtrumpi is formally registered, it's about as scientific as
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This has NOT been confirmed as a new species, nor formally published yet
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I would cite this part of the MoS for this rather interesting case:
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as the one who originally reverted the addition of italics.--
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Start-Class amphibian and reptile articles of Low-importance
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another purpose. Trump is a god-level troll, don't feed it.
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Derived uses in non-biological contexts are not italicized:
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Template:Did you know nominations/Dermophis donaldtrumpi
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did so to raise awareness of Donald Trump's policies on
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As you undid my edit (and I assume this would be BRD).
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itself, but Unicorn was an album by the band T. Rex."
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Non-English words, including New Latin binomials, are
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itself, but Unicorn was an album by the band T. Rex.
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This article refers to a taxon that doesn't have its
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Start-Class United States articles of Low-importance
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is definitely not English. It should be italicized.
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The largest carnivore in family Tyrannosauridae was
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named relating to its behavior with its children.--
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so far, the name is not legitimate until it...is.--
2277:Ah interesting , in that case should it appear as
1367:was lost on your clipboard, because it should be.
2156:It looks like the phenomenon may be correct, per
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963:~SÄągehelmusâ
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860:Did you know
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849:Did you know
847:
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838:A fact from
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601:Project Talk
589:
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440:project page
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373:WikiProjects
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238:Please stay
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19:This is the
3165:Jonathunder
3151:Jonathunder
2825:Jonathunder
2782:Jonathunder
2721:Jonathunder
2657:Jonathunder
2617:Jonathunder
2560:Jonathunder
2539:Jonathunder
2279:dermatrophy
2205:, here's a
2037:Jonathunder
1984:Jonathunder
1956:Jonathunder
1264:Jonathunder
1232:Jonathunder
1107:EnviroBuild
1075:Description
1061:Joergens.mi
1024:Joergens.mi
854:check views
424:is part of
363:Start-class
311:speedy keep
148:free images
31:not a forum
3228:Categories
2939:Sigehelmus
2856:notability
2852:Sigehelmus
2503:italicized
2499:Sigehelmus
2493:Regarding
2419:Sigehelmus
2393:Sigehelmus
2203:Sigehelmus
2105:Sigehelmus
1847:Sigehelmus
1794:Sigehelmus
1680:Sigehelmus
1357:Sigehelmus
1196:Sigehelmus
771:photograph
532:Presidents
432:amphibians
324:While the
3191:Plantdrew
2694:Plantdrew
2679:Plantdrew
2595:species.
2569:Sonderweg
2495:this edit
2309:Caecilian
1684:synthesis
1435:caecilian
1278:Anarchyte
1169:Anarchyte
1133:Anarchyte
1115:The Quint
893:Knowledge
844:Main Page
252:consensus
220:citations
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2507:MOS:LIFE
1750:WP:UNDUE
1123:NewsWeek
779:included
720:inactive
694:inactive
500:included
436:reptiles
303:deletion
283:archives
218:Include
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
3211:Dyanega
3185:Dyanega
2489:Italics
1554:Dyanega
1527:Dyanega
1431:species
1408:Dyanega
1404:implies
1101:Italics
987:Dyanega
954:Dyanega
938:Dyanega
846:in the
640:on the
472:on the
202:dispute
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
2564:kitsch
2556:T. rex
2257:young.
2207:source
1365:T. rex
1307:T. rex
1121:, and
819:Upload
810:Flickr
726:Panama
689:Panama
606:Alerts
496:images
369:scale.
126:Google
3111:(Tøk)
3018:(Tøk)
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1643:(Tøk)
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1473:Bradv
1390:(Tøk)
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969:(Tøk)
767:image
492:image
244:civil
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
3215:talk
3195:talk
3155:talk
3032:Brad
2944:Brad
2861:Brad
2786:talk
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2598:Brad
2566:vs.
2543:talk
2516:Brad
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2424:Brad
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1930:WP:V
1926:EEng
1852:Brad
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1558:talk
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1412:talk
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1182:work
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991:talk
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800:The
434:and
309:was
242:and
240:calm
162:FENS
136:news
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