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783:"in the English language, is this movement better known as "Flemish Primitives" or "Early Netherlandish painting"" - the latter. See the sources, some of which in their original languages used "Primitive" names. The museum catalogues from London, Washington & New York all use ENP. "Primitives" just sounds wierd in English, mainly suggesting a non-PC term for African art perhaps. "Early Flemish painting" would be the next choice, but rather more of them were "Dutch" than you allow for, though working in the south. See
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if they’re still widely used alongside the scientific names, like for animals. The dog page of
Knowledge is still “Dog” and not “Canis” and “Cat” is still that and not “Felis” or something. It’s not proper English and I doubt it was even created by an English speaking person. “Early Netherlandish” as a Knowledge title is being geeky and overdoing it — and of course Knowledge has long been suffering from nerd tyranny, which is the only reason why this page is not named what it should be: Flemish Primitives.
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Primitieven," even in Dutch media. "The
Netherlands" and "Netherlandish" is ambiguous because it gets easily confused as a homonym with the modern country of the Netherlands, and thus not with Belgium, while the vast majority, or practically all of these painters were from what is now Belgium. This is an art movement that is associated with Belgium and modern-day Flanders in particular.
756:, that is well known as "Highlander Classics" (made up for the sake of analogy), which may not be totally accurate because not all Scots are Highlanders, but then people want to call it "Old British Painting," except here it's even worse because Netherlands the region and Netherlands the country are homonyms, so effectively in this analogy it would be called "Old Anglo-Saxon Painting."
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Actually, it hasn’t really been proven that “Flemish
Primitives” has been completely replaced by “Early Netherlandish” at all. It has only been proven as being an alternative term. Nobody ever uses that word "Netherlandish" when speaking. Even in pure scientific stuff, Knowledge uses the common terms
987:
Look, fine, but (the first book is in Dutch) yer issue is with how
English speaking art-historians have referred to the period since the early-1960s, rather than any option to rename this article. Common totally applies here. It would be better to raise these these arguments in academic journals etc,
871:
Rather neatly, the
Princeton book is a reprint of a book (by some Netherlandish type) first published in 1950! Travel guides & Francophone museums are not RS for English usage. Actually the full title of the book and series is "The Flemish Primitives: Catalogue of Early Netherlandish Painting in
767:
I'd rather have a layman confused about the modern state of
Flanders not being the same as the Medieval County of Flanders than have them think all of this rich culture is actually Dutch. If it is indeed much more widely known as Early Netherlandish Painting then I'll shut up, but the argument can't
749:
So I'm a Dutch guy in the
Netherlands who loves Belgium and hates the Netherlands, that is my bias. That being said, in the Dutch language, I've never heard this movement called "Early Netherlandish Painting" before at all, ever, but maybe that's just me. I normally hear it referred to as "Vlaamse
1096:
He seems to have got his dates wrong, unless the period covered by the term extended later in his day - nearly a century ago now. Maybe point the discrepancy out in a note, or just drop the point. Like some other
Panofsky neolgilistic terms, it has not caught on at all. One notices that the music
914:
Yes, thanks. Picking up a point from the original post, I can fairly confidently say that "a layman confused about the modern state of
Flanders not being the same as the Medieval County of Flanders" is not something that is likely to be a "worry" for native English-speakers, but I know from past
760:
Anyway, I know that the titles of these kinds of articles are probably based on what they are best known as in academic circles, so my question is, in the
English language, is this movement better known as "Flemish Primitives" or "Early Netherlandish painting"? If in academic circles it's widely
842:
thing. I disagree that the fact that "primitive" has negative connotations is relevant to the naming of the article and any ambiguities from its original translation is amply shared by the term "Netherlandish". And so much for it having "pretty much disappeared" 70 years ago:
1049:"Erwin Panofsky preferred the term ars nova ("new art"), which linked the movement with innovative composers of music such as Guillaume Dufay and Gilles Binchois, who were favoured by the Burgundian court over artists attached to the lavish French court."
765:, you can call it Flemish Primitives, and then just as with the current name clarify that despite the name it refers to a movement that flourished primarily in the Southern Low Countries (present day Belgium) as the article already does.
819:
I agree, the title should be 'flemish primitives', this is the name given in the country or countries where the art is from. Calling it Netherlandish gives readers the idea that this is a Dutch group of painters while most are Flemish.
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Hi Lotje, its worth rasisng but a matter of taste; I wouldn't be in favour of reducing myself. Its a very long article out of necessity, and I think the text to image ratio requirement is met. Plus, the pics are lovely.
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Fair point. But on my old laptop that has only 50gb its not onerous. ps, some reductions wouldn't be the end of the world, and I do like to abide by accessibility, and was generally supportive of the much missed
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for the origin (I think) of the term - it's the French who started this "primitive" stuff, but the word has different connotations in English & pretty much disappears in English say 70 years ago.
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1115:" was originated to "glofigy the two great composers Du Fay and Binchois" – which is just... wrong? The term was coined in the 1300s for the music of the 1300s (in the broadest terms) by
898:", now sounds archaic in English, but perhaps the Dutch language doesn't have the same hang-ups as English. In my experience "Netherlandish" never refers to the present-day Netherlands.
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thanks for coming back on this. Indeed, the pics are lovely. I was only thinking to have them for example upright 1.20 or 1.35. My concern is only for readers on smaller devices
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style was active from 1310–1377 or the 14th century by the narrowest and broadest definitions respectively. Du Fay and Binchois were both composers of the 15th century, after
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Having been through this argument several times before, Ham II has it, as and said before, this is the English language Knowledge, and the article does explain.
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the Royal Museums of Fine Arts of Belgium, Volume 6" - rather odd fence-sitting. It is not an Engvar thing, see the MMA in NY & NGA in DC in the references.
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And I'm sorry, I may be paranoid, but I always feel like there's a bit of Dutch-glory, fuck the Belgians bias in the making of these decisions.
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Hi David, see also the first three paragraphs in the "Terminology and scope" section that opens the article and goes into this in detail.
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and at the beginning of the Renaissance (Renaissance music begins around the 1400s). If all that is needed here are important
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known as Flemish Primitives but you're worried about the fact not all or most of the Southern Low Countries were part of the
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It's like you're referring to a mostly Scottish art movement primarily based in Scotland with maybe a few painters in
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etc, that English usage of "Flanders" and "Flemish" has been very flexible and often vague since the Middle Ages.
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The Century of the Flemish Primitives: Late Medieval Art in the Royal Museum of Fine Arts in Antwerp
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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chosen in historical films and documentaries are more often than not similarly out of joint.
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I under fully recognize that this is cited but I'm not sure how it could make sense. The
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I could be biased but isn't "Flemish Primitives" just a better name for the article?
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discussions it can get Belgians very het up. It can be demonstrated from the
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For what it is worth, I also think Flemish Primitives is a clear
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I found the source and read the excerpt. He says that the term "
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Shouldn't the filesizes be reduced? Thank you for your time.
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rightly says, the article does explain, so does the title of
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Hi, since this is on my watchlist, you might take a look at
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, visit the
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1244:, we all miss RexxS. Anyhow, have done some resizing.
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Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
645:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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where you can join the project or contribute to the
455:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
271:This article appeared on Knowledge's Main Page as
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1123:, who both lived before Du Fay and Binchois...
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255:. Even so, if you can update or improve it,
251:as one of the best articles produced by the
245:; it (or a previous version of it) has been
1223:Thanks for looking into this. btw, why is
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1015:. Hope that answers the question. Cheers.
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853:most important art museum in Belgium
639:This article is within the scope of
449:This article is within the scope of
392:It is of interest to the following
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1317:All WikiProject Netherlands pages
1297:FA-Class Belgium-related articles
838:but I suspect that this may be a
732:may be automatically archived by
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1307:All WikiProject Belgium pages
1254:01:17, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
653:and see a list of open tasks.
469:Knowledge:WikiProject Belgium
463:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
1292:Old requests for peer review
1133:09:17, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
950:in to this conversation: as
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239:Early Netherlandish painting
25:Early Netherlandish painting
1277:Knowledge featured articles
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845:Princeton University Press
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855:did not get the memo... —
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735:Lowercase sigmabot III
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75:avoid personal attacks
1332:Netherlands Todays FA
195:Auto-archiving period
100:Neutral point of view
1075:Guillaume de Machaut
665:visual arts articles
581:Netherlands articles
105:No original research
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253:Knowledge community
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896:Italian Primitives
763:County of Flanders
754:Berwick-upon-Tweed
634:Visual arts portal
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388:content assessment
284:Article milestones
275:on March 11, 2014.
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309:Peer review
148:free images
31:not a forum
1271:Categories
1207:User:RexxS
851:, and the
849:Guidebooks
840:WP:BRITENG
567:discussion
248:identified
1045:Ars nova?
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1113:ars nova
1071:ars nova
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1054:ars nova
730:120 days
696:Archives
384:FA-class
352:Promoted
333:Reviewed
314:Reviewed
199:120Â days
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1099:Johnbod
948:Jumping
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874:Johnbod
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493:on the
466:Belgium
457:Belgium
413:Belgium
292:Process
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
960:, and
900:Ham II
390:scale.
295:Result
126:Google
1246:Ceoil
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1225:RexxS
1211:Ceoil
1192:Lotje
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1125:Aza24
1083:Aza24
1017:Lotje
990:Ceoil
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952:Ceoil
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836:WP:CN
804:Ceoil
241:is a
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
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485:High
289:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
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176:TWL
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