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other source, but I accept that the main body of the article could also be tidied up further to make it clear that
Operation Midland had been closed without any charges being brought. But I would oppose large chunks of the article being deleted. I think it is right and proper that the allegations are reported along with the outcome of the police investigation. People may well think that the allegations have been widely discredited, but it continues to be a controversy because the Independent Police Complaints Commission is still investigating claims of misconduct against Met Police officers in relation to the allegations. With regard to Ian's suggestion that people who are anti-EU made false allegations against Edward Heath, perhaps by the same token it could be suggested that some accusers with more liberal political persuasions may have made false allegations against those with right-wing views on immigration and Europe like Enoch Powell and Harvey Proctor and people who don't like a certain pop star's music may have made false allegations for reasons of antipathy as well. Unfortunately this is the world we live in.
1024:" rather than "scandal". It is true that no politician has ever been convicted of anything at Elm Guest House, but two other men were arrested in connection with the Elm Guest House investigation. One of them was jailed and the other one died before the case came to court. Former Catholic priest Tony McSweeney was jailed for abusing boys and John Stingemore died before his court case was due. Would you like this to be made clearer in the lead section Keri? In the lead it is stated that in March 2016 Operation Midland had been closed without any charges being brought. But the Independent Police Complaints Commission is also investigating claims that the Met Police had suppressed evidence of child sexual abuse and prevented the investigation of some allegations between 1970 and 2005, because of the alleged involvement of police officers and MPs.
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has had "a disastrous affect on genuine complaints of child sexual abuse" is given. But perhaps there could be a further slight adjustment of the lead section to state that apart from the former
Catholic priest Tony McSweeney being jailed in connection with the Elm Guest House investigation, no "prominent individual" has ever been convicted of activities at Elm Guest House. And also a sentence in the lead section to mention some of the strong criticisms made by people of the Operation Midland investigation. If that was made clearer in the lead section would you feel more comfortable with this article
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tangential subjects. The nominal subject is treated as if it were an empty coat-rack and is obscured by the "coats". The existence of a "hook" in a given article is not a good reason to "hang" irrelevant, undue or biased material there... A coatrack article fails to give a truthful impression of the subject. In the extreme case, the nominal subject gets hidden behind the sheer volume of the bias subject(s). Thus the article, although superficially true, leaves the reader with a thoroughly incorrect understanding of the nominal subject."
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1131:" doesn't make this nor that article correct in their approach. Claiming that this article isn't "one-sided" when it is some 6,400 words long and contains only a handful of sentences clarifying that the rest is largely a combination of fantasy, disproved allegations and conspiracy theory takes some chutzpah.
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In addition, the word 'hoax' is completely inappropriate as it is suggestive of a prank or someone playing word-games, whereas this is too serious a egregious a crime to dismiss as a 'hoax', therefore, the word 'hoax' has been included as a nonce-word (used temporarily for a particular occasion) as a
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This is a serious proposal that needs careful consideration - preferably without the use of bold text, underlining, and exclamation marks. It does not help the process if you attempt to make unilateral and major changes to the article text without seeking prior agreement here. Please argue the case
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The whole page still needs major revision; as it stands, it's just a list of allegations, almost all of which have proved unfounded. What actually happened in Elm Guest House? A reader could be forgiven for thinking that "something" did, but nothing has come to light. Even the claims that Cyril Smith
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So I would disagree that this article is still very one-sided. As well as the allegations being reported and the stated fact that
Operation Midland was closed without any charges being brought, the criticism of the police investigation and the point of view from Harvey Proctor that Operation Midland
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Midland is independently notable and deserves its own article but I restored a brief mention here and provided sources that establish a connection to this subject. I've taken an ax to a good portion of other parts of the article. It seems that individual allegations were added in great detail while
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rather than "scandal". Or if not "allegations" then I don't have any specific objections to "claims and controversy" instead. The lead section does state that the list of alleged visitors to the Guest House had been produced by convicted fraudster Chris Fay and never verified or corroborated by any
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which involves similar wild allegations. The problem with this article is that it has become too fuzzy and loosely focused. What is it actually about? It may well be relevant to look at why certain allegations widely deemed to be fanciful have received the attention of PC Plod, who famously decided
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definition of "scandal". The
Cambridge defines it as "(An action or event that causes) a public feeling of shock and strong moral disapproval", the Oxford as "An action or event regarded as morally or legally wrong and causing general public outrage", Collins' as "A scandal is a situation or event
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I broadly agree with Keri and I have made a start by adding slightly to the first couple of paragraphs. This meets my point that it needs to be made clear right at the beginning of the article the the allegations were all a malicious fantasy. However, much remains to be improved in the rest of the
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Was Edward Heath a rather dud Prime
Minister? Perhaps. Was he "a monumental paedophile and a child sacrificing satanist" as Icke claims? Hmm. Nevertheless, these allegations have become widespread on the Internet and Wiltshire Police are investigating them. As we know, some people are not fans of
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s - report of a raid there in the 70s. It mentioned a young boy was found on the premises. He was actually the son of the owners, and was in their separate living quarters. The newspaper article omitted that detail, and the hare has been running ever since. This article needs to screw down on the
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Certainly nobody is claiming in the article that all the allegations are true. But this was nevertheless a major police investigation, which was described by
Commander Peter Spindler, head of the Met Police's specialist crime investigations unit as a "complex multi-agency investigation". There's
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I've been asked to look at this, and the article has become a mess. It is unclear about what the scandal or controversy is, and is lumping together various police investigations and allegations, some of which are not directly related to the Elm Guest House. There is a need for a serious cleanup
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The first two questions are answered in the first sentence. The rest is somewhat answered, but the real problem with this article is that providing specific answers would be blatantly libellous, hence it consists mostly of waffle and innuendo. There's a pretty strong smell of 'throw everything
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for the word "scandal" to be used - they have to be widely publicised and discussed, which the ones in this article have been, in the past. I don't believe that using the word "scandal" implies that the allegations had any truth to them, or were libellous. But, I'm all in favour of making it
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at worst." It is a confused tangle of multiple historic abuse inquiries and allegations, most of which have nothing to do with Elm Guest House. And to date there is nothing to substantiate the allegations about goings on inside the guest house, and much that discredits those allegations.
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Seriously, this is like trying to swim in porridge. There seems to be a powerful strand of recalcitrance among some editors to accept that the allegations have proven false and to actually deal with the multiple problems with this article. Quite simply, the article should tell a reader:
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known/proven facts about Elm Guest House, and lose the tin foil hat, or instead be merged into an umbrella article which does legitimately group together all of these historic abuse inquiries. As I mentioned above, McSweeney and
Stingemore, for example, had no links to Elm Guest House.
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The state of the article has improved considerably in recent months but is still a bit of a maze to wander through. Much of the allegations were unfounded and I do think that's largely addressed now though. Like
Necrothesp, I'm not enthusiastic about this title but it's an
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January 2017 looking for evidence to support these allegations. Heath is lucky that he is now dead, because it would be extremely time wasting for the police to be turning up on his doorstep with allegations which look like they have been taken straight from
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broadcast in
October 2015 is mentioned twice in this Elm Guest House article, both in the "2015 allegations" section and later in the "Operation Midland and homicide allegations" section. Gareth E. Kegg has updated the article with mention of the apology that
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receives a brief mention in "2015 allegations" but is limited to a mere 3 sentences despite debunking most of the allegations. The second mention was added only after I started raising concerns here. Chris Fay is likewise barely mentioned, despite being the
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It is wrong to say that the allegations surrounding Elm Guest House have been shown to be unfounded. Operation Midland (focusing on Dolphin Square) collapsed but Operation Athabasca (focusing more on EGH) is still ongoing, as far as I can make out.
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I've tried to reshuffle the "2015 allegations" and "2014 allegations" into proper sections to make this easier to navigate. It's still a mess, but it's less of a mess. I've also trimmed detailed unfounded accusations. At this point we can be
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that is thought to be shocking and immoral and that everyone knows about", and Macmillan as "A situation in which important people behave in a dishonest or immoral way that shocks people". The general meaning is that an "action" or "event"
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standards has been proven to have taken place there. The article goes to great lengths to link other police inquiries and operations, but they are unconnected. The myth around Elm Guest House grew from a single line in - I think it was the
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applies. I recall a previous discussion where editors had trouble finding out what this article was about due to so much intricate detail to allegations that ultimately were never verified, I hope we're closer to clearing that up
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Britain's membership of the EU and voted for Brexit. One of the consequences of this has been a string of wild allegations against Heath, who took Britain into the Common Market in 1972. This is reminiscent of the
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visited have been dismissed as probably not genuine in the last couple of years. The article is titled "Elm Guest House child abuse scandal" but it appears that at least 3 of those words are superfluous.
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child abuse in Elm Guest House by this alleged, supposed or fictitious "Tory Thatcherite Freemason (insert Jewish or Zionist or Jewish Zionist) Westminster VIP Paedophile wing" headed by Sir
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that Nick's allegations in Operation Midland were "credible and true" despite being unable to produce any evidence to support them and subsequently admitting that this had been a mistake.
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For the avoidance of any doubt, I should make clear that I'm entirely comfortable with reshaping this article, clarifying it, and removing any overlap with other articles. If the
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1409:– What scandal?! This is a controversy at best, a hoax and a case of mass hysteria at worst! Even the title in its present form is itself arguably libellous towards Field Marshal
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McSweeney and Stingemore committed their offences at Grafton Close; no links were established during the various investigations between the children's home and the guesthouse.
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investigation and subsequent exposure of the "witness" as a fantasist. I don't doubt that this sensationalist, allegation-heavy POV runs throughout the article.
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by the Commissioner and the Met Police; and honestly, who are we, us eminent experts here to say that the Met are wrong on this?! As things currently stand (
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and knowing his list was false. What other articles might say ("Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations") is neither here nor there: just because "
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The issues with this article haven't gone away just because nobody wants to talk about them. I hope you're braced for some brutal copy editing:
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against the wall and see what sticks' about the whole thing. It should probably be torn down and started again from scratch, but I doubt
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I also agree. There was indeed a lot of hype, which is detailed in great length here, but much of it ended up being unfounded.
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1764:: Several months ago I put forward the idea on the talk page that perhaps the title of the article could be renamed
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did a good job of updating the article. Although perhaps the article could be retitled "Elm Guest House child abuse
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However, this article is unclear about what the topics involved are and needs to be much more tightly focused.--
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is that the article title should be changed, I'm unlikely to pursue my objection, but what needs to be decided
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currently a different lengthy WP article on the Donald Trump sexual misconduct allegations at this link:
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Thanks. Should we make clear in the first paragraph that the allegations turned out to be unfounded? --
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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1821:. Not sure I like the proposed title that much, but it's factually better than the current title. --
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I fully agree. Apart from anything else, this article seems to cover some of the same ground as
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as "Grand Master", end of story, period, or full stop! (and can we possibly have some mass
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I'm in agreement as well. It was a mess. I've amended it inline with your suggestions.
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absolutely clear, in the article text, where past claims have been discredited.
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gross cover-up. The lack of cats in the area is also suspicious... DCN
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for changes to the article, that other editors can then consider.
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page purge as well please I would perhaps suggest, thank you!) --
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Thanks. One of the problems is that the article is essentially a
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Isn't that an issue with police and law rather than evidence?
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I have extracted material from this article to a new article
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applies here, we'll need to summarize the allegations better.
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Zac Goldsmith urged to withdraw paedophile ring allegations
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Much like the allegations, which didn't pan out either...
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convicted fraudster at the centre of the first allegations
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as an admission and acceptance of the whole story being
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I quite agree: it all now looks rather unbalanced. --
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1411:Lord Bramall
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1324:— Preceding
1320:
1285:— Preceding
1263:The Guardian
1262:
1241:— Preceding
1237:
1217:
1212:
1205:Frankenstein
1189:article. --
1169:The Guardian
1167:
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1068:Lord Bramall
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58:This is the
46:
1939:took place?
1929:alleged it?
1886:move review
1789:WP:COATRACK
1701:'s website.
1688:Apparently
1678:Private Eye
1619:at best, a
1421:'s apology
1363:move review
1207:at best, a
1104:? Regards,
1022:allegations
268:Start-class
187:free images
70:not a forum
2086:Categories
2064:WP:NOTNEWS
1823:Necrothesp
1787:This is a
1699:David Icke
1430:Met Police
1372:page moved
957:WP:NOTNEWS
733:Law portal
647:Multimedia
621:Sound bite
436:Journalism
427:journalism
386:Journalism
229:While the
1586:consensus
1514:Comment:
1460:WP:RevDel
748:. Please
127:if needed
110:Be polite
60:talk page
1993:Robofish
1895:Porridge
1594:Ghmyrtle
1533:Ghmyrtle
1497:WP:TITLE
1480:Ghmyrtle
1326:unsigned
1287:unsigned
1243:unsigned
1120:Panorama
1066:gave to
1057:Panorama
924:Panorama
95:get help
68:This is
66:article.
39:deletion
2010:WP:BOLD
1974:Kiltpin
1913:is EGH?
1858:Kiltpin
1854:Support
1836:Support
1819:Support
1762:Comment
1745:Alarics
1673:Comment
1650:here.--
1647:Comment
1621:chimera
1613:Support
1545:That's
1493:Support
1428:of the
1213:today's
1209:chimera
1191:Alarics
989:Alarics
943:Alarics
891:on the
742:of the
668:Answer
607:Cleanup
361:on the
193:WPÂ refs
181:scholar
2069:LM2000
2048:Smerus
2014:LM2000
1841:LM2000
1516:Oppose
961:LM2000
864:London
855:London
811:London
758:Assess
756:, and
754:Create
641:Verify
274:scale.
165:Google
1911:Where
1590:first
1520:move.
1436:false
740:scope
661:Other
534:Media
525:Media
484:Media
208:JSTOR
169:books
123:Seek
2073:talk
2067:now.
2052:talk
2018:talk
1997:talk
1978:talk
1952:Keri
1943:What
1933:What
1917:What
1905:What
1862:talk
1845:talk
1827:talk
1795:Keri
1775:talk
1749:talk
1718:♦Ian
1655:♦Ian
1627:Keri
1598:talk
1557:Keri
1537:talk
1528:true
1505:talk
1495:per
1484:talk
1468:talk
1413:and
1391:talk
1334:talk
1310:talk
1306:Keri
1295:talk
1275:talk
1271:Keri
1261:See
1251:talk
1227:talk
1223:Keri
1195:talk
1179:talk
1175:Keri
1137:talk
1133:Keri
1110:talk
1102:Keri
1008:talk
1004:Keri
993:talk
979:talk
965:talk
947:talk
932:talk
928:Keri
750:Join
628:NPOV
201:FENS
175:news
112:and
47:keep
45:was
1927:Who
1878:.
1694:Eye
1552:has
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353:Mid
215:TWL
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1657:Ma
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1450:no
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280::
248:.
211:·
205:·
197:·
190:·
184:·
178:·
172:·
167:(
97:.
49:.
20:)
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