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1561:. On another note: the use of "decade" for a 10 day period is, or better was, common in German; it isn't common in English, but there is usually used for a 10 year period, as Diannaa mentioned above. As I also object to your edit even in the shorter form, I have reverted your edit, and would beg you to not revert again. This talk-page discussion is what will be used for deciding if, and if yes which part of your addition(s), will be part of the article. So, let me warn you about engaging in
1022:. I don't see the point of a subsection on "war crimes" that simply repeats points already covered elsewhere in the article. Hence I've removed some content on the commissar order. The second paragraph of the "Trial" section makes it clear that although Manstein says otherwise, the prosecution found evidence that he did follow the commissar order. That gives a balanced view; I don't think it's our place to say definitively what he did or did not do based on the content of one biography. â
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1511:) and in English language books covering German forces it is used as well. So, the first decade of August 1943, refers to days 1-10, because that's exactly when the German front collapsed and this prompted Manstein to issue this order. In the second decade, 11-20, the Germans were on a counterattack, after assembling reinforcements. Examples of
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never actually gives due weight to such writings. When reliable sources talk about
Manstein's military skill (or lack thereof) that should be explicitly included in an "aftermath" or "legacy" section. Tbqh I don't think should be rated as a "Good" article right now because it is a fairly significant omission for an article about a general.
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reasons for removing the section were strictly based on common sense editing practices, and are not in any way indicative of a desire on her part to protect the reputation of a Nazi war criminal. I suggest that you withdraw your remarks and apologize, before you are subject to a block for making a blatant personal attack.
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Essentially, these records are served on a silver platter. Seriously, this is a kindergarten level of knowledge from you about these matters- to say that it "is inaccessible to almost everybody" is laughable, lol. It is "inaccessible" only to those who are completely ignorant about it and still think
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I have reverted the edit. Perfectly valid original primary source, straight from the archives, relevant to the period in question, in shortened form and direct link to it is given, to the exact frame in the roll no less, to those that deem German primary sources as "inaccessible to almost everybody"
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You've removed my latest edit because of the fact not being entirely certain. I've provided a reliable source, however. Don't you think my edit could stay, considering that it's not a well-known fact and should receive some more attention? The fact that it's a speculation doesn't mean it's not true,
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What you may not realize is that the article did not have a war crimes section until Szzuk created it on July 9. If it's going to be complete, it will duplicate material already present elsewhere in the article. That would be pretty pointless in my opinion, and if such a section existed at the time
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Clearly, the German archival material is completely alien to you both, that's exactly the primary source that I'm talking about (duh), as you both are completely oblivious to the fact that they are available and accessible in a matter of seconds, instead they are supposedly "inaccessible to almost
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It's outside the purview of
Knowledge (XXG) to say whether or not he was guilty; that would be original research and outside the scope of what Knowledge (XXG) is supposed to do. In my opinion what we should do is report on the evidence presented in the trial and then report on the verdict, without
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Articles about generals usually include postwar assessments of their military skill, but this article doesn't seem to have them. It only mentions it in an offhand way, like "postwar writings have focused on
Manstein's military feats and ignored his political/ethical dimensions" (I paraphrase) but
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Considering
Diannaa's record in protecting all sorts of articles from the edits of Nazi sympathizers, neo-Fascists and the like, your personal attack against her is all the more inappropriate. She is truly one of the "good guys" in this respect, and does not in any way deserve your remarks. Her
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Please withdraw this personal attack. I am not a Nazi apologist. I gave what I thought was a good policy-based reason (WP:OR) - we can report what the defense said at the trial, what the prosecution said, and what the verdict was. But it's not our place to state in
Knowledge (XXG)'s voice that he
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That's a good point, Lectonar. I don't have access to Melvin any more, so I can't check there without requesting a copy on inter-library loan. But we still have Lemay at my library, and I can't find any mention of this incident in that book. If Lemay doesn't see fit to include it in his 482-page
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I can agree that citing entire order would take up too much space, so I left the excerpts from the document that highlight main points of it. I'll reiterate again- this document is not found or used in any historical work, with regards to
Manstein personally and Wehrmacht's justice system. As my
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Second this. This article in it's current state is more of a teardown of "Manstein Myth" than a biography. Furthermore, there is almost zero context to this, it assumes the reader is already familiar with it without providing any explanation as to the substance behind it, real or imagined.
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states that the policy allows "Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in
Knowledge (XXG)". A document that is only available in the NARA archives is not such a document. So it looks to me that for these reasons, the paragraph should come out. â
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I object to the addition of content about an order
Manstein issued on 12 August 1943, because it is sourced to documents that only exist at NARA. Typically we do not use primary sources, and the source is inaccessible to almost everybody, and is therefore unverifiable.
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book, it's probably not notable enough event for us to include it in our article. That's one reason why secondary sources are preferred over primary sources: secondary sources will have already filtered out the less-important details.A second reason not to include it:
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Who is Mark
Axworthy? Is he a notable expert on the topic, notable enough that his speculation about Manstein's dismissal should appear in the article? If such content were present at the time of a Good Article nomination, I would likely be asked to remove it.â
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of a Good
Article nomination, we would likely be asked to remove it and integrate any non-duplicated content into the appropriate sections of the article. I think it needs to be completely removed, and any useable content integrated in with the other prose. â
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I understand that archival material is a completely alien thing to you, but because of that you should not write that "the source is inaccessible to almost everybody, and is therefore unverifiable", which is pure nonsense and outright
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By this point, nearly all German records stored at NARA, including the one I'm using, have been made publicly available online, accessible to anyone at any time, they can be read online and downloaded, all for free and without
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Regardless of the sourcing, the inclusion of the 614-word text of the order is inappropriate, as it places undue weight on this fairly minor point. So that has to stay out in my opinion. Comments are welcome. â
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Finally, the usage of "decade", to describe a ten consecutive day period in any calendar month, is perfectly valid. It was in constant use by the Germans (especially to describe the 10-day casualty reports per
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I wish you wouldn't copy your responses all over the place, especially when, as here, you fail to make it clear that it's a response to something I said on my talk page. (Removed PA, per consensus on WP:AN)
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for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution.
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I wasn't granted an exclusive rights to these records, nor anyone else who uses them, but we do know how to actually use them. In this regard, the original German docs, now stored at the
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Tai3chinirv7ana....You're concentrating too much on the sourcing. The more important point, imho, mentioned by Diannaa and myself is: should the info it be in the article at all? See
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The refs are direct and unambiguous. The trial section hedges around the issue - he was convicted of these crimes but the article tries to say maybe he wasn't really guilty.
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mention it in the War crimes section is to suggest either that Knowledge (XXG) does not regard it as a war crime, or that Knowledge (XXG) thinks he was innocent.
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It doesn't need to be simple. Many people only read the opening paragraph, so it needs to be a little more comprehensive than your version in my opinion. â
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And here's the link to this "inaccessible to almost everybody" source-document that I'm using, with frames clearly indicated and referenced in the citation:
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His works are based on archive documents. Maybe speculation can't be added, but his sources are definitely reliable when it comes to actual events.
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German colleague said upon reading it, this document is indeed unknown, with only General Schörner being widely known for such actions.
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on the right of the page when performing a Google search. Many people will only read that and never click through to our article. â
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Intro should be simplified. He was war criminal, no need to say for how many years he was sentenced etc there, it is in the details.
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adequate reliable sourcing (apart from primary sources) could be found, one could mull over creating a separate article.
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making an independent judgement on whether or not that verdict was correct. It's not up to us to declare him guilty. â
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has re-added the content in spite of my objection. I will try to find a better source when the library opens tomorrow.
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actually committed the crime of which he was found guilty: carrying out the commissar order. â
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You say the source is available online; could you please provide a link? â
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Such a section is not a GA requirement. Perhaps for a Featured Article â
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is one of the war crimes of which von Manstein was convicted. To
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Die KĂ€mpfe an der finnischen und an der Nordfront waren in der
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The problem with sourcing set aside, the addition toes into
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territory imho...way too much detail about a single thing.
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der Betriebsstoffnachschub nach Norwegen einsetzen musste.
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Easily verifiable if you have the slightest grasp of it.
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https://catalog.archives.gov/id/373074267?objectPage=786
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The opening paragraph is what's included in the Google
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19:This is the
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1294:Speculation
1140:Duncan Hill
938:translation
476:World War I
148:free images
31:not a forum
1676:Categories
1644:WP:PRIMARY
1206:DuncanHill
1163:DuncanHill
1123:DuncanHill
1088:DuncanHill
1056:DuncanHill
290:under the
1534:2. Dekade
944:from the
734:Biography
674:Biography
464:Biography
428:is rated
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
1629:Lectonar
1625:WP:UNDUE
1585:Lectonar
1571:Lectonar
1567:deadline
1445:Lectonar
1338:Lupishor
1308:Lupishor
679:Military
484:Cold War
468:European
430:GA-class
349:Promoted
304:reassess
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1649:Diannaa
1611:Diannaa
1513:Dekaden
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1464:Diannaa
1422:Diannaa
1393:Diannaa
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1300:Diannaa
1298:Hello,
1262:Diannaa
1221:Diannaa
1105:Diannaa
1071:Diannaa
1024:Diannaa
996:1 April
914:history
872:on the
845:Germany
836:Germany
792:Germany
368:Demoted
327:Process
215:90Â days
154:WPÂ refs
142:scholar
1478:false.
472:German
436:scale.
387:Listed
330:Result
126:Google
1437:undue
1042:Szzuk
417:This
259:is a
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
1653:talk
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998:2019
864:High
723:and
324:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
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940:of
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176:TWL
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