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1499:. What I said: Mbappé has played for both the U19s and the senior team in both 2023 and 2024, and PSG official sources back that information as showing him as a member of both teams across that time period. GiantSnowman says that because he made his professional debut in 2023, we should close off the youth career then, even if he plays youth football in 2024. My rebuttal is that this would be an appropriate way to do things in countries where youth football is not age restricted, but here in France, it is age restricted.
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1896:— for further clarification, can you please explain what you meant by the "not-too-complicated accuracy that is also verifiable" being "the case here"? Would you agree that leaving both open is both accurate, verifiable, and not too complicated? I, and seemingly RedPatch, seem to agree that it's not that complicated, that the sourcing backs it up, and that this is the true representation of the facts.
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I disagree entirely. I don't see how overlap between senior clubs is different from overlap between senior and youth. They are not mutually exclusive. If we allow overlap between A and B teams to show reliable information to the reader that the player rotated between the two over a time period, then
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GS, I disagree. If your logic is correct, then whenever a player switches between an A and B team in the same pyramid, we'd have to close and re-open multiple times, which of course we don't do because that would be ridiculous (see right). However, it is the same situation as your point, he played
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GS, I really don't understand why you're against this. There is no consensus to automatically close the youth career either (it's just what usually is the case), especially in this case where it's proven that he's on both teams. PSG themselves literally say that. We agree that players can play for
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at a club. After under-19, there is no under-23 in France. Once a player is not eligible for U19 football in France, the youth career is closed off forever. No re-opening it. There is a fourth situation that I didn't mention: if a player is at a club but isn't on the reserves or under-19, we just
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There are several ways this could be resolved. You would just have to look at the precedent for what happens for similar scenarios with "reserve" sides. However, hypothetical scenarios aren't really helpful here— in this example, it is quite clear what the answer is. This is just "whataboutism".
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As I have said, it is irrelevant whether he plays 0, 1 or 100 more games for the youth teams. As far as we are concerned, his senior career has started. Trying to have a complicated infobox to accurately depict every nuance of a player's career its not its purpose, that's what the prose is for.
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There is absolutely no reason why they can't overlap. We've had this discussion on the FOOTY board a few times and many users agree that they can overlap and is common sense. A player can play on a youth national team and senior national team and those are both open, this is the same. We have
899:. Please don't be stubborn about it. Yes, his senior career has started. That has been reflected in the infobox. But his youth career hasn't ended either. That should be reflected too. How is this "complicated"? It's not complicated whatsoever! We just leave the youth career open for now.
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with him being on the first team. Nowhere does it say that a player can't be on two teams. It's not complicated, the sourcing backs it up, and it's accurate. Just because this is not how you have done things historically doesn't mean this way is wrong. In fact, I'd argue this is a
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the reserves and the senior team at the same time, right? Well, what's different with the youth team? I understand you're more familiar with the
English "U23" youth system, but remember that the youth football system in France is different, being age-restricted without exception.
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Well, in what way is anything not case-by-case? Not every single player stops playing youth football when they start senior football and not every single player still plays youth football while they are playing senior football. There is no SINGLE set-in-stone rule, but
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If this didn't make sense I can explain it more in depth. It's not that complicated if you understand how the youth system works in France. Someone born in 2006 is no longer eligible for youth football in July 2025, or at the end of the 2024–25 season (2006+19=2025).
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So are you saying that every under-19 player in France must have an open youth career (even if they do not play youth football anymore), and every over-19 player in France must have an open senior career (even if their senior career has not yet started)?
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relevant, and the sources say he is a part of the youth team as of 2024. This should be reflected accurately. As for the readers caring about it— if you think nobody cares, then why do you care so much what it says? Please just let me handle this one.
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I'd understand if it truly was a question of simplicity. However, in this scenario, I can assure you that it'll be verifiable. Why sacrifice accuracy for simplicity when accuracy can be achieved without killing practicality and verifiability?
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I think they should both be left open as there could still be a chance he could still play with the
Academy as well as the senior side. His name is still on the U19's squad list on Knowledge (XXG) as of 11 January 2024.
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This isn't anarchy. Let us follow what you say for cases in which it's unclear. But here, sourcing goes against that. Why can't we just listen to the sources? Isn't that a core principle of
Knowledge (XXG)? Also,
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overlapping between different sections of the infobox between club and international, club and college, etc all the time. There is zero reason why youth and senior cannot overlap, especially when it is clearly
2231:, you seem to be the only one who thinks that there is a problem with having overlaps. Everyone else here agrees that there's no "rule" against it, and that it's the best way to be accurate when verifiable.
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En effet, les règles de la LFP, la Ligue de
Football Professionnel, établissent que tout joueur d'une équipe qui a joué pendant au moins une minute, doit à tous égards être considéré comme champion.
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Indeed, the rules of the LFP, the
Professional Football League, establish that any player from a team who has played for at least one minute must in all respects be considered a champion.
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we should also show that they rotated between the youth and senior over a time period. Otherwise, we are lying and misrepresenting that the player never played for the youth side again.
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Yes of course. I should explain better— I meant, what do you mean that it "is the case here"? Have we found that complicatedness-accuracy-verifiability balance, and if so, what is it?
1649:, then leave both open. If players are not eligible for under-19 football in France, they will be one of three: playing for the reserves, playing for the senior team, or quite simply
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1887:). You seem not to be able to comprehend that a player can be on two teams at the same time, like RedPatch said. There's no rule against this. And once again, everything here is
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I think we've found some sort of consensus. GS — if you can't understand why four editors disagree with you here, take some time to re-read the arguments and statements above.
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Paul - you're wrong. He played for the youth team, then he played for the senior team, now he's back with the youth team. My proposed infobox is accurate as it reflects that.
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672:'s message on that discussion. Good thing he's banned, he was quite disruptive. However, he was right on one point-- Mbappé can't play youth football after June 2025.
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Except that in this case, it's not "far more complicated"... he is on both the first team and under-19 team. That's all there is to it, and the sources support that.
668:, I understand you disagree. Just so you know, I already presented all my reasoning on your talk page a bit ago. Why did you revert (double)? Just so you know, I saw
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I would argue that his youth career has not "ended" yet. It didn't end in 2023. There is no reason why a player can't be a part of both the first and youth team.
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No, we do need consensus here, that is how
Knowledge (XXG) works. The fact he still plays for the youth team is irrelevant, how many readers will care about it?
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1658:, I believe. He wasn't in PSG's senior squad but he wasn't on the reserves or under-19s either. He was a senior player who was not selected for an entire year.
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as a member of the PSG under-19s. This has not changed since 2023. He is both a member of the under-19s and first team, and the infobox should reflect that.
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OK. But what do you do if a youth player spends 4 years with the senior team, and then returns for 1 match? - say he was a youth player for all that time?
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We are not 'lying', what a dramatic thing to say. The infobox is meant to be a brief summary of a player's career. Having an overlap causes confusion.
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He's also been played three times and is in the official squad list for the senior team. There's no way you can twist it. He's on both teams.
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854:"it's just what usually is the case" - so you admit it's the status quo? And therefore you need consensus to change? Which you don't have?
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He trains with mostly the senior team, regularly appears on the bench for the senior team, but plays consistently with the youth team.
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That's fine but also irrelevant. For simplicity's sake his senior career has started and therefore we should 'close' his youth career.
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stop playing for the youth team the same year they start playing for the senior team. However, for some players, that is not the case.
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I understand that there is consensus here, and that it goes against me. That does not mean I have to think the decision is correct.
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The reality is that it's far more complicated than the infobox can show, and so we need to keep it as basic and simple as possible.
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rules or guidelines to follow for different scenariors. I've outlined them above. They're not that hard to understand, and they
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Your proposition doesn't make any sense at all, either! He is on both the pages of the U19 and senior squads on PSG's website.
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display the information more accurately than your "this is too complicated, I refuse to dig deeper" view of the situation.
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Precisely - we have a system in place which works, just as we (should) do for 'youth' players who play senior games...
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Playing back for the youth team after playing for the senior team is irrelevant. Look at Jay
Spearing etc. in England!
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The infobox should say "2017–" for Paris Saint-Germain youth career and "2023–" for Paris Saint-Germain senior career.
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Why is it so hard for you to understand that a player can be on two different teams at the same club at the same time?
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won a champion's medal despite only playing a single minute (and, trivially, while being on loan at another club).
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open their senior career (regardless), because that is the only and best way to represent that, like was done for
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GS, we don't need consensus here, it's just common sense. He is still a member of the youth team. He is listed
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playing for the senior team but are still eligible for youth football, then close the youth career , like on
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If we can have not-too-complicated accuracy that is also verifiable, I'm in favour. That is the case here.
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OK then - so have his youth career ending in 2023 and then re-starting in 2024, if you want to be precise.
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It's really not that confusing, too. What's wrong with a player being part of two teams of the same club?
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There is no consensus for these changes. Having such a parallel career is confusing and unnecessary.
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Although you should NOT have re-added the content without waiting for my response, very poor form.
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2307:. According to LFP rules, players having played at least one minute are declared champions. See
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Robby - the 'accuracy' is as per the infobox I suggested above, which is, of course, ridiculous.
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I strongly disagree with your view that the senior career automatically ends the youth career.
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Ethan Mbappé is still on the PSG youth team. Therefore, his youth career should remain open.
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Overall, just a fundamental disagreement over whether youth career should be left as "2017–
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But he's not playing for the senior team anymore? You said he is back with the youth team?
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2167:*Club domestic league appearances and goals, correct as of 22:04, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
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reflected in that infobox you inserted above. Accuracy would be youth career (2017–
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And why in the world would we do that? He hasn't left the youth team at all!
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Training/being on the bench is not indicative of being a first team player.
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Even transferred or loaned-out players are declared French champions per
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When I said that's just what usually is the case, I meant that players
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But true accuracy is too complex to show, as I have repeatedly said.
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The youth career is left open on a case-by-case basis. If they are
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GS, I've iterated this several times: youth football in
England is
182:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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It's not an opinion, youth football in France is age-restricted.
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Can you get a RFC, because right now the opinions are just 1v1.
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Luvo mbappe is mbappe's son 14 years old born 8 December 2008
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it's not - you removed the image parameters which I restored.
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He even scored a league goal for the under-19s this January.
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It still just generally makes no sense why you oppose this.
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I've also made a stronger, more coherent argument so far...
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It's really not that complicated to display this accurately
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1458:21:29, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
605:17:21, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
592:17:20, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
536:purpose of Knowledge (XXG)
526:autoconfirmed or confirmed
480:project's importance scale
351:project's importance scale
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2450:06:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
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1966:
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2174:for one then the other.
544:normal editorial process
725:and not approximative.
566:. I'm confused. How is
1728:not mutually exclusive
574:? Montreuil is in the
570:a valid parameter for
540:standards of behaviour
363:
212:
98:This article is rated
2311:that talks about how
362:
211:
171:WikiProject Biography
102:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
1598:...in your opinion.
1135:Personal information
313:Association football
308:WikiProject Football
1953:
1296:Paris Saint-Germain
1253:Paris Saint-Germain
1241:Paris Saint-Germain
1206:Paris Saint-Germain
1143:Ethan Mbappé Lottin
1131:
1643:Warren Zaïre-Emery
1578:entirely different
1180:1.76 m (5 ft 9 in)
512:contentious topics
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1974:Senior career*
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1952:Player Player
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1889:WP:VERIFIABLE
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1542:Iggy the Swan
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1497:Quick summary
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373:(assessed as
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2460:
2439:
2431:
2420:edit request
2309:this article
2305:GiantSnowman
2302:
2172:
1994:
1987:
1982:
1963:Current team
1876:
1872:
1871:— that is a
1869:GiantSnowman
1771:
1732:
1727:
1723:
1705:
1701:
1650:
1647:Ethan Mbappé
1638:
1581:
1577:
1547:
1495:
1462:
1444:GiantSnowman
1372:
1371:GS, he's on
1327:
1313:
1279:
1272:
1267:
1220:Youth career
1201:Current team
1130:Ethan Mbappé
1125:
997:GiantSnowman
950:GiantSnowman
917:GiantSnowman
896:
890:
888:
836:
835:". Accuracy
780:GiantSnowman
717:GiantSnowman
666:GiantSnowman
663:
660:Youth career
614:
576:Paris region
561:
533:
520:
509:
475:
435:
368:
346:
306:
233:
169:
110:WikiProjects
75:
63:
56:
50:
35:
2360:Paul Vaurie
2342:Paul Vaurie
2317:Paul Vaurie
2273:Paul Vaurie
2247:Paul Vaurie
2233:Paul Vaurie
2137:Barcelona B
2101:Barcelona B
2065:Barcelona B
2047:Barcelona C
2029:Barcelona B
2011:Barcelona C
1912:Robby.is.on
1898:Paul Vaurie
1894:Robby.is.on
1821:Paul Vaurie
1807:Robby.is.on
1793:Paul Vaurie
1789:Robby.is.on
1774:Robby.is.on
1737:Paul Vaurie
1710:Paul Vaurie
1675:Paul Vaurie
1660:Paul Vaurie
1612:Paul Vaurie
1586:Paul Vaurie
1552:Paul Vaurie
1507:Paul Vaurie
1479:Paul Vaurie
1450:Paul Vaurie
1417:Paul Vaurie
1391:Paul Vaurie
1377:Paul Vaurie
1347:Paul Vaurie
1333:Paul Vaurie
1185:Position(s)
1091:Paul Vaurie
1060:Paul Vaurie
1034:Paul Vaurie
1004:Paul Vaurie
970:Paul Vaurie
956:Paul Vaurie
923:Paul Vaurie
921:See above.
901:Paul Vaurie
842:Paul Vaurie
804:Paul Vaurie
790:Paul Vaurie
753:Paul Vaurie
727:Paul Vaurie
702:Paul Vaurie
674:Paul Vaurie
646:Makwan 2345
611:Luvo mbappe
584:Paul Vaurie
100:Start-class
2486:Categories
2424:|answered=
1189:Midfielder
1154:2006-12-29
833:irrelevant
2461:Not done:
2155:Barcelona
2132:2022–2023
2119:Barcelona
2083:Barcelona
2078:2021–2022
2024:2020–2021
1968:Barcelona
1582:no weight
1291:2023–2024
1236:2017–2023
1226:2015–2017
1170:Montreuil
1140:Full name
572:Montreuil
558:Montreuil
542:, or any
189:Biography
129:Biography
68:libellous
2469:Jamedeus
2204:RedPatch
2176:RedPatch
1865:RedPatch
1852:RedPatch
1531:Contribs
1230:AS Bondy
1172:, France
1160:(age 17)
1030:accuracy
322:Football
263:Football
28:deletion
2389:Snowman
2377:Snowman
2335:transl.
2264:Snowman
2221:Snowman
2194:Snowman
1929:Snowman
1838:Snowman
1702:several
1692:Snowman
1630:Snowman
1603:Snowman
1569:Snowman
1470:Snowman
1408:Snowman
1375:teams.
1364:Snowman
1318:Snowman
1077:Snowman
1051:Snowman
1021:Snowman
987:Snowman
940:Snowman
891:usually
863:Snowman
821:Snowman
770:Snowman
744:Snowman
723:precise
692:Snowman
670:Frenchl
602:Snowman
478:on the
349:on the
1733:better
1584:here.
1212:Number
1177:Height
562:Hello
451:France
442:France
398:France
268:France
106:scale.
2428:|ans=
2418:This
2386:Giant
2374:Giant
2261:Giant
2218:Giant
2191:Giant
1979:Years
1926:Giant
1910:Yes.
1835:Giant
1689:Giant
1627:Giant
1600:Giant
1566:Giant
1467:Giant
1405:Giant
1361:Giant
1315:Giant
1264:Years
1248:2024–
1074:Giant
1048:Giant
1018:Giant
984:Giant
937:Giant
860:Giant
818:Giant
767:Giant
741:Giant
689:Giant
636:Moops
599:Giant
568:Paris
2473:talk
2446:talk
2364:talk
2346:talk
2321:talk
2313:Jesé
2277:talk
2251:talk
2237:talk
2208:talk
2180:talk
2150:2023
2114:2022
2096:2022
2060:2021
2042:2021
2006:2020
1989:Apps
1983:Team
1916:talk
1902:talk
1885:0000
1881:0000
1873:very
1856:talk
1825:talk
1811:talk
1797:talk
1778:talk
1741:talk
1714:talk
1679:talk
1664:talk
1639:only
1616:talk
1590:talk
1556:talk
1527:Swan
1523:Iggy
1511:talk
1503:0000
1483:talk
1454:talk
1421:talk
1395:talk
1381:talk
1373:both
1351:talk
1337:talk
1274:Apps
1268:Team
1095:talk
1064:talk
1038:talk
1008:talk
974:talk
960:talk
927:talk
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846:talk
808:talk
794:talk
786:here
757:talk
731:talk
706:talk
678:talk
664:Hey
650:talk
621:talk
588:talk
510:The
178:and
36:keep
34:was
2426:or
2356:RMC
2162:(0)
2144:(1)
2126:(0)
2108:(1)
2090:(2)
2072:(0)
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2036:(0)
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1997:Gls
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470:Low
341:Low
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353:.
186:.
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55:(
38:.
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