935:
with regard to whether they've attempted conversion therapy. The
Voiceless piece sites he president of the organization as claiming not to have undergone conversion therapy (as well as a couple other people who were not identified as members of the organization) but specifies that the organization has supported conversion therapy. It makes no statement about a stance regarding sex only being within marriage, nor on the importance of welcoming homosexuals. It makes no statement that the one identified member has not been attracted to homosexuality, much less that that is a defining aspect of the membership. There may be things to be said about these two groups, but not this text with these sources. As such, I am removing it (again). --
691:
958:
should not be assumed to include the same people. Neither source discusses them having "new birth" or being "born again" (which is not neutral-point-of-view language anyway.) The new text continues the claim about conversion therapy, when we still only have one person claiming that from
Voiceless and the March group claiming only that most of them have not been through such therapy, not that it's a defining characteristic. As such, I am removing it (again). I suggest you discuss what you want to insert and find consensus for it before retrying. --
448:
427:
679:
458:
639:
563:
532:
355:
337:
365:
651:
573:
273:
21:
306:
1255:
824:
1078:“I don’t want to tell everyone it’s a ‘gay-to-straight’ thing because God is not calling me to that," Ruiz told NBC News. "I feel that I want to live in a life of purity. I feel that through loving Christ, he will walk me out of any situation. I love the LGBTQ community, I love my family. There’s no hate here, there’s love.”
934:
However, these sources do not actually support the statements that you make. The "Your Other
Brothers" articles describe their writers not as being people who have not been attracted to homosexuality, but as "Christian men who experience same-sex attractions" -- no past tense there, nor any mention
767:
article actually states about "choice" is that, "Ex-gay leaders traveled to churches and appeared on television news programs citing a litany of examples of happily married “former homosexuals” to demonstrate that sexual orientation is a choice and that change is possible." That statement does not
957:
And now you've reworked it and gotten rid of the "Your Other
Brothers" material and included "Freedom March", which is the name of both an organization and of events they help organize (but are not sole backers of.) However, the NBC article mentions only the event, not the organizing group, which
1187:
behind. I may not identify myself as a chubby guy, but that doesn't mean I don't still have that spare tire 'round my waist. Also, none of them say that it was "since becoming
Christians", so they may well have been Christians before that. The second source does not have the lack of conversion
799:
feautures a lot of quotes from an interview he did. I'm sure there is a better secondary source covering his shift elsewhere, in a book or a journal. At the time they didn't technically call it "ex-gay", but should he be included? He also later supported removing homosexuality from the DSM.
794:
is perhaps one of the first psychologists who practiced conversion therapy, and disavowed it in the early 1970's. He was also the
President of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies in the 1970's. There isn't much on his wikipedia page regarding this, however this
740:. The first part of the addition lists the main goals of the ex-gay movement, including "coordination with individuals and organizations, particularly opponents of gay and lesbian civil equality to influence public perception and public policy" among other things. It is cited to
1175:
Number 2 can be batted away quickly. It lists no sources, the claim it makes is not made in either of the prior two sources, and it seems to be putting up a bit of a straw man, as if there is some strong force telling these
Americans that they don't have the right to tell their
744:, a scholarly book edited by Jack Drescher and Kenneth Zucker. The second part states that "These goals rest in the claim that sexual orientation is a choice and that change for homosexuals is possible through therapy and prayer", and it is cited to an article in
1195:
As it makes no accurately-sourced statements, I am removing the new version. Given the number of go-rounds on this, I again suggest that you propose an addition here on the Talk page and find consensus before adding it to the page.
735:
to the article. I accept that the addition was made in good faith and indeed much of it looks helpful. Unfortunately, the addition was in some ways misleading. It also involves an improper synthesis of sources, as described at
754:
is misleading, since it is not in fact true that supporters of the ex-gay movement all view sexual orientation as a choice, and nor is it supported by the source provided. The material makes it look as though the popular
1053:
The whole notion of "conversion therapy" is misleading, Byrd told CP, "because the majority of us has never experienced conversion therapy; our experiences were encounters with the Holy Spirit that changed our lives."
199:
1096:
Fredi and Paul
Cleveland, pastors of Koinonia Congregation in Washington, came to the event to support those who had left their gay and transgender identities behind and also to support the message of love.
1029:
Daren Mehl, president of Voice of the
Voiceless, said he did not seek conversion therapy in his personal journey from homosexuality to heterosexuality. He said the decision was “not forced but a choice.”
1224:). Thank you for the comments. The word identification was added and their willingness to share a message of love for LGBTQ people (cited several times in both articles). Thanks for your help. --
1348:
709:
514:
832:
869:
Merely identifying as "ex-gay" does not make one part of the movement; the people here encouraged folks to dehomosexualize themselves and/or offered training or counseling to do so. --
1353:
1308:
990:). Thank you for the comments. This contribution aims to highlight the fact that ex-gay Christians have not had recourse to conversion therapy. The new version talks about two things:
504:
1267:
927:
1313:
480:
1343:
1192:, our presumably reliable source. Rather, the Post is quoting a "ocalist and Freedom March worship leader", who would not qualify as a reliable source on these other people.
704:
546:
264:
193:
1303:
629:
1106:
1039:
471:
432:
1323:
619:
1120:
Through the
Freedom Marches, we want to spread messages of love and acceptance for people who have shed their LGBTQ identity and show others that we do exist.
125:
1333:
669:
45:
1358:
1298:
595:
393:
1179:
Number 1 has a number of problems. The first source used, the NBC one, does not have people saying they are no longer gay, it says that they no longer
1338:
131:
90:
53:
1318:
1328:
1011:
Ruiz, who said he no longer identifies as gay and denied going to conversion therapy, promoted his decision to attend the event on Facebook.
917:. They insist on the importance of welcoming and loving homosexuals, but believe that sexuality should be reserved for heterosexual marriage.
1263:
1247:
816:
586:
537:
389:
379:
342:
1064:
997:
923:
76:
664:
542:
236:
145:
150:
66:
1107:
https://www.christianpost.com/news/ex-lgbt-men-women-to-share-stories-of-transformation-at-2nd-freedom-march-in-washington-dc.html
1040:
https://www.christianpost.com/news/ex-lgbt-men-women-to-share-stories-of-transformation-at-2nd-freedom-march-in-washington-dc.html
1221:
987:
772:"rest in the claim that sexual orientation is a choice and that change for homosexuals is possible through therapy and prayer".
120:
796:
317:
214:
1293:
777:
260:
256:
252:
248:
244:
240:
181:
111:
1138:
None of us were ever forced to change or put in a camp; it was a decision that we made to follow after Jesus and His love.
1140:
1122:
1099:
1080:
1056:
1032:
1013:
1134:
1116:
1092:
1074:
1049:
1025:
1007:
272:
231:
155:
1170:
They stress the importance of love for gay people, but believe they have the right to share their ex-gay stories.
175:
283:
828:
773:
696:
678:
323:
763:
and shows that they "rest in the claim that sexual orientation is a choice", which is not the case. What the
171:
656:
463:
1167:
Some people say they are no longer gay since they became Christians, without going to conversion therapy.
101:
1065:
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pulse-survivor-others-gather-celebrate-freedom-being-gay-n871651
998:
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pulse-survivor-others-gather-celebrate-freedom-being-gay-n871651
594:
on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
479:
on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1259:
221:
116:
1270:
until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
1215:
1201:
981:
963:
940:
874:
835:
until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.
457:
447:
426:
305:
859:
805:
578:
207:
56:
for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
914:
840:
288:
737:
388:-related issues on Knowledge (XXG). For more information, or to get involved, please visit the
97:
187:
1229:
1155:
285:
1211:
1197:
977:
959:
936:
870:
476:
70:
37:
638:
1275:
855:
801:
791:
833:
Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 27#Transformational ministry
759:
article discusses the goals of the ex-gay movement as described in the scholarly book
1287:
836:
746:
591:
370:
1225:
1151:
952:
891:
650:
354:
336:
686:
646:
568:
562:
531:
453:
360:
1271:
1268:
Knowledge (XXG):Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 31#Kristin J. Tremba
910:
572:
287:
1279:
1254:
1233:
1205:
1159:
967:
944:
878:
863:
844:
823:
809:
787:
Potential addition to "People who no longer support the ex-gay movement"
781:
909:, who claim they have not been attracted to homosexuality since their
901:
There are also believers gathered in Christian organizations, such as
768:
support the claim that the goals of ex-gay movement as described in
385:
384:, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all
1258:
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect
1131:
1113:
1089:
1071:
1046:
1022:
1004:
299:
289:
61:
15:
677:
637:
1188:
therapy in multiple people being said in the voice of the
750:, a non-scholarly popular magazine. The content cited to
732:
49:
41:
32:
27:
206:
827:
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect
590:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
475:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
924:
this NBC source for "Voice of the Voiceless" claims
220:
489:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Sexology and sexuality
1349:Low-importance Latter Day Saint movement articles
854:I think we should add Milo since he’s now ex gay
79:for general discussion of the article's subject.
896:You have repeatedly tried to insert this text:
1354:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement articles
1309:Mid-importance Sexology and sexuality articles
1164:The version you just added has two sentences:
8:
1314:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality articles
492:Template:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality
1344:B-Class Latter Day Saint movement articles
526:
421:
331:
19:
604:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Christianity
402:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject LGBT studies
26:Text and/or other creative content from
1304:B-Class Sexology and sexuality articles
528:
423:
333:
303:
815:"Transformational ministry" listed at
705:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement
7:
1324:Low-importance Christianity articles
584:This article is within the scope of
469:This article is within the scope of
1334:Low-importance Catholicism articles
322:It is of interest to the following
69:for discussing improvements to the
885:Ex-gays without conversion therapy
797:article here on USC's student blog
472:WikiProject Sexology and sexuality
14:
1359:WikiProject Christianity articles
1299:WikiProject LGBT studies articles
731:Darwin Naz recently made a large
607:Template:WikiProject Christianity
405:Template:WikiProject LGBT studies
96:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome!
1339:WikiProject Catholicism articles
1266:. This discussion will occur at
1253:
932:source on "Your Other Brothers".
822:
689:
649:
571:
561:
530:
456:
446:
425:
363:
353:
335:
304:
271:
91:Click here to start a new topic.
913:, without having recourse to a
831:. The discussion will occur at
624:This article has been rated as
509:This article has been rated as
495:Sexology and sexuality articles
376:This article is of interest to
1246:"Kristin J. Tremba" listed at
1:
1319:B-Class Christianity articles
782:00:21, 6 September 2018 (UTC)
702:This article is supported by
662:This article is supported by
598:and see a list of open tasks.
483:and see a list of open tasks.
88:Put new text under old text.
1329:B-Class Catholicism articles
1183:gay or that they left their
845:23:20, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
1234:17:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
1206:16:43, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
1160:14:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
1375:
1280:13:25, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
968:03:18, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
945:00:56, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
810:10:25, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
630:project's importance scale
515:project's importance scale
829:Transformational ministry
685:
645:
623:
556:
508:
441:
348:
330:
126:Be welcoming to newcomers
1248:Redirects for discussion
1150:Thanks for your help. --
879:12:54, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
864:12:25, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
817:Redirects for discussion
697:Latter Day Saints portal
587:WikiProject Christianity
380:WikiProject LGBT studies
1262:and has thus listed it
665:WikiProject Catholicism
907:Voice of the Voiceless
682:
657:Catholic Church portal
642:
486:Sexology and sexuality
464:Human sexuality portal
433:Sexology and sexuality
312:This article is rated
121:avoid personal attacks
46:nominated for deletion
1294:B-Class LGBT articles
681:
641:
610:Christianity articles
392:or contribute to the
316:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
265:Auto-archiving period
146:Neutral point of view
774:FreeKnowledgeCreator
151:No original research
48:. The former page's
903:Your Other Brothers
579:Christianity portal
54:provide attribution
915:conversion therapy
683:
643:
318:content assessment
132:dispute resolution
93:
1260:Kristin J. Tremba
1145:
1144:
1127:
1126:
1104:
1103:
1085:
1084:
1061:
1060:
1037:
1036:
1018:
1017:
724:
723:
720:
719:
716:
715:
547:Latter Day Saints
525:
524:
521:
520:
420:
419:
416:
415:
296:
295:
112:Assume good faith
89:
60:
59:
1366:
1257:
1132:
1114:
1090:
1072:
1047:
1023:
1005:
956:
895:
850:Milo Yiannapolos
826:
699:
694:
693:
692:
659:
654:
653:
612:
611:
608:
605:
602:
581:
576:
575:
565:
558:
557:
552:
549:
534:
527:
497:
496:
493:
490:
487:
466:
461:
460:
450:
443:
442:
437:
429:
422:
410:
409:
406:
403:
400:
373:
368:
367:
366:
357:
350:
349:
339:
332:
315:
309:
308:
300:
290:
276:
275:
266:
225:
224:
210:
141:Article policies
62:
36:was merged into
35:
23:
22:
16:
1374:
1373:
1369:
1368:
1367:
1365:
1364:
1363:
1284:
1283:
1251:
950:
889:
887:
852:
843:
820:
789:
770:Ex-Gay Research
761:Ex-Gay Research
742:Ex-Gay Research
729:
727:Recent addition
695:
690:
688:
655:
648:
609:
606:
603:
600:
599:
577:
570:
550:
540:
494:
491:
488:
485:
484:
477:human sexuality
462:
455:
435:
407:
404:
401:
398:
397:
369:
364:
362:
313:
292:
291:
286:
263:
167:
162:
161:
160:
137:
107:
71:Ex-gay movement
38:Ex-gay movement
31:
20:
12:
11:
5:
1372:
1370:
1362:
1361:
1356:
1351:
1346:
1341:
1336:
1331:
1326:
1321:
1316:
1311:
1306:
1301:
1296:
1286:
1285:
1264:for discussion
1250:
1244:
1243:
1242:
1241:
1240:
1239:
1238:
1237:
1236:
1193:
1190:Christian Post
1177:
1173:
1172:
1171:
1168:
1143:
1142:
1139:
1136:
1129:
1125:
1124:
1121:
1118:
1111:
1102:
1101:
1098:
1094:
1087:
1083:
1082:
1079:
1076:
1069:
1059:
1058:
1055:
1051:
1044:
1035:
1034:
1031:
1027:
1020:
1016:
1015:
1012:
1009:
1002:
994:
993:
992:
991:
971:
970:
930:Christian Post
920:
919:
886:
883:
882:
881:
851:
848:
839:
819:
813:
792:Gerald Davison
788:
785:
728:
725:
722:
721:
718:
717:
714:
713:
710:Low-importance
701:
700:
684:
674:
673:
670:Low-importance
661:
660:
644:
634:
633:
626:Low-importance
622:
616:
615:
613:
596:the discussion
583:
582:
566:
554:
553:
551:Low‑importance
535:
523:
522:
519:
518:
511:Mid-importance
507:
501:
500:
498:
481:the discussion
468:
467:
451:
439:
438:
436:Mid‑importance
430:
418:
417:
414:
413:
411:
375:
374:
358:
346:
345:
340:
328:
327:
321:
310:
294:
293:
284:
282:
281:
278:
277:
227:
226:
164:
163:
159:
158:
153:
148:
139:
138:
136:
135:
128:
123:
114:
108:
106:
105:
94:
85:
84:
81:
80:
74:
58:
57:
52:now serves to
24:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1371:
1360:
1357:
1355:
1352:
1350:
1347:
1345:
1342:
1340:
1337:
1335:
1332:
1330:
1327:
1325:
1322:
1320:
1317:
1315:
1312:
1310:
1307:
1305:
1302:
1300:
1297:
1295:
1292:
1291:
1289:
1282:
1281:
1277:
1273:
1269:
1265:
1261:
1256:
1249:
1245:
1235:
1231:
1227:
1223:
1220:
1217:
1213:
1209:
1208:
1207:
1203:
1199:
1194:
1191:
1186:
1182:
1178:
1174:
1169:
1166:
1165:
1163:
1162:
1161:
1157:
1153:
1149:
1148:
1147:
1146:
1137:
1133:
1130:
1119:
1115:
1112:
1109:
1108:
1095:
1091:
1088:
1077:
1073:
1070:
1067:
1066:
1052:
1048:
1045:
1042:
1041:
1028:
1024:
1021:
1010:
1006:
1003:
1000:
999:
989:
986:
983:
979:
975:
974:
973:
972:
969:
965:
961:
954:
949:
948:
947:
946:
942:
938:
933:
931:
925:
918:
916:
912:
906:
902:
899:
898:
897:
893:
884:
880:
876:
872:
868:
867:
866:
865:
861:
857:
849:
847:
846:
842:
838:
834:
830:
825:
818:
814:
812:
811:
807:
803:
798:
793:
786:
784:
783:
779:
775:
771:
766:
762:
758:
753:
749:
748:
743:
739:
734:
726:
711:
708:(assessed as
707:
706:
698:
687:
680:
676:
675:
671:
668:(assessed as
667:
666:
658:
652:
647:
640:
636:
635:
631:
627:
621:
618:
617:
614:
597:
593:
589:
588:
580:
574:
569:
567:
564:
560:
559:
555:
548:
544:
539:
536:
533:
529:
516:
512:
506:
503:
502:
499:
482:
478:
474:
473:
465:
459:
454:
452:
449:
445:
444:
440:
434:
431:
428:
424:
412:
408:LGBT articles
395:
391:
387:
383:
382:
381:
372:
361:
359:
356:
352:
351:
347:
344:
341:
338:
334:
329:
325:
319:
311:
307:
302:
301:
298:
280:
279:
274:
270:
262:
258:
254:
250:
246:
242:
238:
235:
233:
229:
228:
223:
219:
216:
213:
209:
205:
201:
198:
195:
192:
189:
186:
183:
180:
177:
173:
170:
169:Find sources:
166:
165:
157:
156:Verifiability
154:
152:
149:
147:
144:
143:
142:
133:
129:
127:
124:
122:
118:
115:
113:
110:
109:
103:
99:
98:Learn to edit
95:
92:
87:
86:
83:
82:
78:
72:
68:
64:
63:
55:
51:
47:
43:
39:
34:
29:
25:
18:
17:
1252:
1218:
1189:
1185:gay identity
1184:
1180:
1128:
1110:
1105:
1086:
1068:
1062:
1043:
1038:
1019:
1001:
995:
984:
929:
921:
908:
904:
900:
888:
853:
821:
790:
769:
764:
760:
756:
752:The Atlantic
751:
747:The Atlantic
745:
741:
730:
703:
663:
625:
601:Christianity
592:Christianity
585:
538:Christianity
510:
470:
399:LGBT studies
390:project page
378:
377:
371:LGBTQ portal
343:LGBT studies
324:WikiProjects
297:
268:
230:
217:
211:
203:
196:
190:
184:
178:
168:
140:
65:This is the
44:after being
28:this version
1198:Nat Gertler
1181:identify as
960:Nat Gertler
937:Nat Gertler
871:Nat Gertler
543:Catholicism
194:free images
77:not a forum
1288:Categories
1212:NatGertler
978:NatGertler
394:discussion
911:new birth
856:Nlivataye
802:Sxologist
134:if needed
117:Be polite
67:talk page
42:this edit
1222:contribs
1176:stories.
988:contribs
837:Hog Farm
765:Atlantic
757:Atlantic
738:WP:SYNTH
733:addition
232:Archives
102:get help
75:This is
73:article.
33:OneByOne
922:using
628:on the
513:on the
314:B-class
269:60 days
200:WP refs
188:scholar
50:history
1226:ServB1
1210:Hello
1152:ServB1
976:Hello
953:ServB1
892:ServB1
320:scale.
172:Google
996:1 :
928:this
841:Bacon
386:LGBTQ
237:Index
215:JSTOR
176:books
130:Seek
40:with
1276:talk
1272:Unbh
1230:talk
1216:talk
1202:talk
1156:talk
1063:2 :
982:talk
964:talk
941:talk
926:and
875:talk
860:talk
806:talk
778:talk
208:FENS
182:news
119:and
905:or
620:Low
505:Mid
222:TWL
30:of
1290::
1278:)
1232:)
1204:)
1196:--
1158:)
1141:”
1135:“
1123:”
1117:“
1100:”
1093:“
1081:”
1075:“
1057:”
1050:“
1033:”
1026:“
1014:”
1008:“
966:)
943:)
877:)
862:)
808:)
800:--
780:)
712:).
672:).
545:/
541::
267::
259:,
255:,
251:,
247:,
243:,
239:,
202:)
100:;
1274:(
1228:(
1219:·
1214:(
1200:(
1154:(
985:·
980:(
962:(
955::
951:@
939:(
894::
890:@
873:(
858:(
804:(
776:(
632:.
517:.
396:.
326::
261:6
257:5
253:4
249:3
245:2
241:1
234::
218:·
212:·
204:·
197:·
191:·
185:·
179:·
174:(
104:.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.