Talk:Fenugreek/Archive 1

3703:

that means), but they allow the project to move forward in what would otherwise be an endless online original research project in search of the Truth, which is not what this is all about. I can think of several examples where I personally very strongly believe based on my own expertise and research that what is a consensus in what we call reliable sources is woefully inadequate. For example: I have a more-than-layman's background in Chinese politics and policy and have done quite a bit of research on the crimes against humanity occurring in Xinjiang; I also believe, based on my own analysis of the circumstances and relevant international law, that what is happening there is

3463:"Fresh fenugreek leaves are an ingredient in some curries, such as with potatoes in cuisines of the Indian subcontinent to make "aloo methi" ("potato fenugreek") curry. Sprouted seeds and fenugreek greens are used in salads. When harvested as greens, fenugreek is known as samudra methi in Maharashtra, especially in and around Mumbai, where it is often grown in sandy tracts near the sea, hence the name samudra, "ocean" in Sanskrit. Samudra methi is also grown in dry river beds in the Gangetic plains. When sold as a vegetable, the young plants are harvested with their roots still attached and sold in small bundles in the markets and bazaars. 2360:

would put you closer to violating "3RR" than it would me, and my suggested edit is totally in line with established policy and administrator suggestion, as covered above. I think it is wrong to suggest that the onus is on me to get an RFC: you are the one pushing a point of view specifically against wikipedia policy. To emphasise: the ENGVAR policy exists to unamIbiguously resolve these debates and for this article, it should be "a herb". I see no real arguments for the contrary, and for what it's worth, my having made policy-incorrect edits (in good faith), doesn't diminish the fact that policy is clear on this one.

210:

fenugreek. I do not have any idea what Rashi's source is. A purely speculative guess would be that he read Rubia as a Latin word (it means madder, the red dye, in Latin). Hilbe (fenugreek seeds), the ubiquitous spice of the Yeminite community, is a rust brown color. Could this have led Rashi to identify Rubia as fenugreek? I stress that this is an unscientific guess, because both madder and fenugreek should have been known in Rashi's 11th century France; and unlikely to be confused.

331:

is a very good analogy. No one would ever argue that "Heinz Ketchup" is not a famous food item in the West or try to scrub it out of an article about ketchup. Kasuri Methi is just such a famous item. One can find it on the shelves of stores worldwide. There are many shops that carry it even in my small Amercian city. Kasuri Methi is already on the tables of billions of the world's population today. They hardly need a link in wikipedia. Too funny!

3724:

A Cochrane Review is about as good as it gets per WP:MEDRS. Knowledge's guidelines absolutely end up prioritizing knowledge in certain forms, particularly that created and sustained by predominantly Western institutions. That is not a perfect standard. It takes very little time to figure out holes in "if it worked, people would be using it"; at the same time, though, widespread use does not make for reliability, either. Millions currently use

31: 1199: 3435:

line. My brother is an RN licensed in Texas. I am a Respiratory Therapist formerly licensed in Texas and currently licensed in Texas as a Clinicial Social Worker and Clinical Social Worker Supervisor. We both believe in peer reviewed well designed research and I understand this is only anecdotal information but I’m surprised there is no mention of it’s decongestant properties at all. Any thoughts about this from others?

3556:, both of which conclude the study quality to date is insufficient to conclude anything about using fenugreek effectively (and safely) as a lactation stimulant. If there was any truth of useful effect, there would be widespread clinical use and regulatory approval, which of course do not exist. We cannot be careless by using low-quality publications as sources for content of concern to breastfeeding mothers. 2849: 279:

You are right that it is Rashi who makes that translation; the Tur explicitly cites him as the source for this identification, and thus he is the source for the Shulchan Aruch and all subsequent authorities who make this identification. Avudraham identifies רוביא as פול המצרי, "Egyptian peas", which I assume is the same as black-eyed peas. I have modified the footnote accordingly.

2228:, and would like to point out to you the policy says that one should "use the variety found in the first post-stub revision that introduced an identifiable variety". In the case of this article, that is "a herb", which was introduced in the original article. Additionally, in the above discussion, it appears to me that what consensus there was, was formed on the side of "a herb". 1434:

when the section blanking was reverted. There is no content that has been challenged re: verifiability, so it, as it was added met WP; there was no indication that it would or should be challenged. It seems to me that Kintetsubuffalo or Ugog Nizdast should come up with at least one example of error in the section before requiring that each and every element in it be sourced.

677:, by being boiled then sweetened. This is a popular winter drink served in coffee shops. In other parts of the Middle East fenugreek is used in a variety of sweet confections. A cake dessert known as Helba in the Islamic world is a tasty treat during Islamic holidays. This is a semolina cake covered in sugar or maple-like syrup, and sprinkled with fenugreek seeds on top. 2017:

have severe reactions if they come into contact with peanuts, I thought it may be of interest to them to mention on the wiki page that if you are allergic to peanuts you may also be allergic to fenugreek. My problem is that I have no source to link to, just my personal experience and the fact that the two plants are indeed demonstrably related to each other.

3313:

reduces blood sugar levels in diabetics is "lacking" is false because Knowledge supplies a citation that "there is a risk of hypoglycemia ... in people with diabetes", which is exactly the same thing, and the fact it can impact anti-diabetic drugs whose purpose is to keep blood sugar levels stable (IE preventing it from dropping) adds to this.

3323: 2892: 666:, fenugreek is known as "holba", and used in the preparation of a spinach-based dish known as Qormeh Sabzi. Sholeh Holba, considered an Afghan speciality, is a rich and sweet rice pudding made with fenugreek. It is often made for the purpose of regaining one's strength and given to athletes and women after childbirth. 2291:

it. This is not "messing with it". I suggest you allow such an edit to stick instead of reverting and we can draw a line under this matter. You've referred me to the policy twice in this thread; how about we follow it? Why is pointing out that it clearly delineates which version we should use here a "useless argument"?

807:, pain in the groin. They are used raw or toasted. In India about 2-3g of raw fenugreek seeds are swallowed early in the morning with warm water, before brushing the teeth and before drinking tea or coffee, where they are supposed to have a therapeutic and healing effect on joint pains, without any side effects. 1409:. That challenges it all. Remember, however, that sourcing is now only the threshold requirement. Kintetsubuffalo had other objections as well. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with him about those objections, but only that they ought to be discussed if the material is to be restored in a sourced form. 3702:

Those guidelines and norms have a lot of epistemological assumptions baked into them that we more or less take for granted, often simply because that is the only way this project could function. They are flawed (and some may well be outright false when it comes to deeper philosophical truth, whatever

3308:

Under the safety section, it clearly notes that "There is a risk of hypoglycemia particularly in people with diabetes; it may also interfere with the activity of anti-diabetic drugs.". Hypoglycemia, for the medically ignorant, is blood sugars dropping below acceptable levels, IE the lowering of blood

2776:

I still object to your claim that I am style warrioring; I have reverted my own changes where incorrect when I could probably have got away with leaving them. Nevertheless, I do agree with you that style warrioring is a waste of time. I'm happy to draw this to a close. I'm sorry for my actions at the

2290:

I don't really see the point of opening an RFC. We have an administrator's comment on this page clarifying that policy is for "a" and even indicating his intention to change it, which may have happened and been reverted. Such a change is exactly per the ENGVAR policy, we should change it and stick to

2016:

I am allergic to fenugreek, and also allergic to peanuts (both allergies conclusively ascertained through blood tests). These two plants are quite closely related (see family information etc.). I have been told that this is the reason why I am allergic to both. Since many people with peanut allergies

330:

a famous food item, in fact a daily staple, in many cusines including Indian, Persian, and others. I do not know why there is one specific brand that is so popular but the closest I can liken it to for Westerners is "Heinz Ketchup". Kasuri Methi is used as a condiment as well as an ingredient so it

310:

I have removed the unsupported statement "the famous name of Fenugreek is Kasuri Methi..." and associated links to a commercial website. These were added by an unidentified user with no explanatory comment, and seem to be an attempt to turn the article into an advertisement for a particular supplier.

3950:

I have no objection to your latest addition, because the biomedical basis for these uses is obviously unattested to. If other editors wish to add the historical and contemporary uses of the herb, that should not be a problem in and of itself as long as there is not an implication that these uses are

3825:

Fenugreek has been used for a variety of purposes in traditional medicine, including ________. In some parts of the world , fenugreek is said to increase lactation, but systemic clinical research does not support such uses of fenugreek as effective, and medical sources generally hold that fenugreek

3797:

I gotta say, I feel like it'd be one thing if the Cochrane review found no evidence of effect, or evidence of no effect, but all it came up with was "inconclusive". That should be in the article, but if we truly have a hierarchy of sourcing, and your gold-standard source's conclusion is "¯\_(ツ)_/¯",

3723:

This problem becomes a lot more acute in medical articles, which is why WikiProject Medicine people can come off a bit aggressive about it. Zefr is correct that the body of evidence that English Knowledge considers reliable comes decidedly down against stating the fenugreek has effects on lactation:

3108:

Turkyılmaz C, Onal E, Hirfanoglu IM, Turan O, Koç E, Ergenekon E, Atalay Y. The effect of galactagogue herbal tea on breast milk production and short-term catch-up of birth weight in the first week of life. J Altern Complement Med. 2011 Feb;17(2):139-42. doi: 10.1089/acm.2010.0090. Epub 2011 Jan 24.

2939:

The source discusses evidence of both safety ("Adverse events were not reported in the studies identified; however, fenugreek may cause side effects such as nausea, vomiting, and decreased glucose levels in the mother and diarrhea in the child.") and efficacy. Evidence on efficacy is mixed, which is

2935:

says "Table 3 summarizes the identified studies of common herbal galactagogues". It then says "Fenugreek was the herb most commonly used by women surveyed in Australia: 56% reported its use, 98.2% of whom used it to increase breast milk supply.22 Of lactation consultants surveyed, 15% in Switzerland

2743:

Anyway, I don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing; I'm just trying to offer options for how these kinds of situations could be more constructively resolved in the future. Can we all agree that, a) "a herb" appears to be correct for this article based on how it was originally written, and b) we'll try

2596:

Okay- I did say " I will leave the current wording for a few weeks to see if anyone else decides to weigh in, and intend to then change the page to align with policy" higher up the conversation but I agree that I could have made this more obvious. I can see that it wasn't really apparent that I was

2581:

FWIW, I might have chimed in if it appeared that the conversation was actively seeking feedback from others, versus having gone inactive (maybe I missed such a request?). It's not really a big deal at this point, but I would have either gone to 3O or the projects associated with the article before I

2204:

in place exactly because there is no rational way to resolve a style dispute like this. The notion is that if English style X is established in article, don't change it without prior consensus. Without that piece of the MOS in place, articles would be beset by endless edit wars over style issues

1975:

Clearly the point is trvial, and not worth anyone's time to fight over. But for the record, and as it appears everyone here knows, the "h" is pronounced in the UK and is silent in the USA. I do not know about other English-speaking countries. When the comment was first added, which was back in 2006,

1937:

It appears from the discussion that the use of "an" or "a" with "herb" is a matter of dialect; if the source dialect uses "an" AND it is disputed, then the source prevails. This comes up now and then with the difference between British and American spelling, e.g., labor and labour; if the source is

1316:

A source, reference, or citation is not required for every word in a list the verifiability of which has not been challenged. If someone disputes that, for instance, "halba" is not the correct Malay word for fenugreek, then it should be removed if a reliable source cannot be found. That was not the

680:

Yemeni Jewry often prepare a foamy substance from fenugreek seeds that they add to soups. Additionally, it is a key ingredient besides salt found in their unleavened bread, used for the Festival of Passover. Some Jews customarily eat fenugreek during the meal of the first and/or second night of Rosh

3922:

It's better not to list many of the specific ways fenugreek was/is used in traditional medicine, as there is no good science to justify giving them light except where reputable sources indicate, such as the NIH, Drugs.com, and two Cochrane reviews, which adequately address this generally, as should

2652:

As Jytdog indicated that they were okay with the DRN filing being closed at the filing itself, and Porphyro indicated that they were okay with this being handled as a 3O request (well, we're kind of skirting the 3O process, but I'm here and happy to offer a third opinion, anyhow...), I've suggested

1282:

and should not be replaced without an inline citation to a reliable source. Whether and how quickly this should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article." That makes it very clear (a) that any unsourced material may be removed, (b) that it is improper to replace unsourced

1162:

This section is completely unsourced, unnecessary and brings nothing to the article. Per WP:NOT, Knowledge is not an interlanguage dictionary, and per WP:COATRACK, it is not an indiscriminate collection of tidbits. If the advocate thinks there should be something on the diffusion of fenugreek, then

278:

I did some more research over Rosh Hashana. I had misunderstood your original point about Rashi; I thought you were disputing the translation of תלתן as fenugreek, so I cited Maimonides for that. But you weren't disputing that at all; rather, you were disputing the translation of רוביא as תלתן.

213:

In any case, the custom is still followed by orthodox Sefaradi and Israeli Jews to this day. However, Rubia is understood to be black-eyed peas (see that article in the Knowledge). This makes sense, as black-eyed peas are called Lubiya in Arabic. The Aramaic of the Babylonian Talmud is very closely

3642:

reports that studies of low to moderate quality have found mixed results for a galactogogue effect for fenugreek, which is not strong enough evidence to suggest a safe and effective treatment. The studies in the review were considered inadequate "due to substantial heterogeneity and imprecision of

3434:

In 1978-79 I used the seeds of Fenugreek as a decongestant. I was encouraged by my brother who used primarily alternative medicine for his medical needs. I was pleasantly surprised at how well it worked to clear up my congestion. I did not see any notes to support this on any of the information on

2962:

although a review only of available, mostly weak literature, and including only two preliminary alt med studies, concluded that "evidence regarding the efficacy of fenugreek in increasing milk production is insufficient" and "fenugreek may cause side effects such as nausea, vomiting, and decreased

2739:

As we're all talking here now, I don't think it would behoove anyone to pursue behavior relating to this article as a conduct matter...among other things, admins are typically looking for examples of recent disruptive conduct where a party isn't showing a willingness to engage in discussion, and I

2685:

Jytdog, my inclination is to assume that you didn't realize that "a herb" was the original version (I didn't realize that myself at one point), and were acting in good faith by changing the text to "an herb" because you thought that was the original version. Given everything I've said here, do you

1433:

This section was not created all at once. It is the product of many contributors over time. None of the elements of the section were challenged when it was added. The whole block was blanked, and it was blanked for reasons other than sourcing. It is disengenuous to shift the reason to sourcing

287:

of Rosh Hashana. I then found the Bet Yosef made the same mistake. That section at the end of the Ran must have been mistakenly printed in some early edition as the beginning of the Mordechai, and it must have been repeated in several subsequent editions, because it's unlikely that the Bet Yosef

2359:

revert you made; I checked the history for the article and the initial stylisation was for "an herb" and so per policy that's what it should be. On this article, policy dictates it should be "a herb". I will note, though, that I have reverted your edit once, and you have reverted mine twice. This

2126:? I will, meanwhile, not interject on the issue, unless we can agree to add its traditional medicinal use in its designated section outlining "Traditional use." By the way, my father-in-law has consistently used fenugreek relish as an antidote to his diabetes, and this by doctors' recommendations. 360:

I checked the Tomato Ketchup article, Heinz is mentioned as a notable manufacturer, understandably, but the article does not link to any Heinz sites. There is no logical argument to support the inclusion of links. If I was a 'westerner' I would be able to quench my burning desire for Kasuri Methi

2761:

Porphyro, do you get it that style warrioring is a waste or time, or not? Let me know and we can resolve this thing, otherwise we can start to argue based on the details of ENGVAR, which believe me I can do for a very long time. Up to this point i have just been coming from the spirit of ENGVAR

2735:

is merely an essay, in my experience it is also generally considered "best practice" to initiate a discussion any time one of your good-faith edits is reverted, rather than simply reinserting your change. We've already talked about 3O as an option for getting a quick third opinion if a Talk page

2042:, so if no sources have discussed the fenugreek-peanuts relationship then I don't think the information would be appropriate for inclusion. That said, I did a quick Google search and there appear to be a fair number of hits for both peanuts and fenugreek, so perhaps a good source can be located? 996:

This is based on the assumption that the Aramaic name רוביא corresponds to it. (Karetot 6a; Horiyot 12a) Rabbenu Nissim at the end of Rosh Hashana, citing the custom of R Hai Gaon. This follows Rashi's translation of רוביא, cited as authoritative by Tur and Shulchan Aruch OC 583:1. But Avudraham

3736:

be) — but we do not talk about ivermectin based on those studies. We go with the medical hegemony, if you will, and while fenugreek is relatively harmless, the implications for broader public health re: COVID help illustrate, I think, why we rely on this hierarchy of sourcing as a general rule.

2566:

Hi Donlago. I left the discussion for a month to see if any other users would see the page and put something in. This didn't happen, so I posted again today. You say my comment is disingenuous but it seems fair to me- should I have done something else? Perhaps you're right in that I should have

2256:

Be that as it may, per policy it should be "a herb" on this page, and your advice to "leave it alone" could just as easily be applied to yourself. I will leave the current wording for a few weeks to see if anyone else decides to weigh in, and intend to then change the page to align with policy.

1685:

As has been noted, there are concerns beyond the lack of sourcing, but you would have a much stronger case for inclusion if you could at least provide those sources instead of violating what is IMO a pretty clear policy simply because, apparently, you don't feel it applies to the information in

3312:

However, in the section immediately following that, Knowledge appears to change it's mind, and states "In traditional medicine, fenugreek is thought to ... reduce blood sugar levels in diabetics, although the evidence for these effects is lacking." - the key part, of course, being the claim it

3124:

Second source sounds kind of sketchy but first looks like a decent ref. Ironically, fenugreek is the weakest herbal galactagogue according to the 2017 article. Ach! Sorry, I have a bad habit of skimming. Wouldn't this (the first ref, "Phytotherapy research") be appropriate to add under the

209:

Can anyone verify the custom of eating fenugreek on Rosh Hashanah? The Babylonian Talmud (Kritut 5b and Horayot 12a) says that seeing (or eating) Rubia on the New Year is a sign of good luck. Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki, 11th century) in Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 109a, identifies Rubia as

3834:

Note that we need to tread lightly when describing its purported benefits and citing alternative medicinal sources. As is the case with a lot of alternative medical therapies, the purported benefits of fenugreek are extremely broad, and listing them all out is probably not useful (see e.g.

2704:

What I find objectionable in all of this is the blatant style warrioring. Advise Porphyro to leave behind "a/an" and other style warrioring bullshit that wastes everybody time, and I will be satisfied with the legalistic decision to go with the letter of ENGVAR as you suggest. We have an

2122:. A question, please. If a certain traditional claim is premised by "Although not proven as medically effective," should we still be hindered from making note of a traditional use of a certain plant? Perhaps we can get some feed-back on this issue from a respected and experienced editor, 378:

Not to argue with the above editors, but for the record Kasuri (or Kasoori) Methi is simply dried fenugreek leaves, used as a spice, as searching for a recipe will clearly show. It is not a brand name. One minute with google solved this issue. Yes, links to products are inappropriate.

2480:

It feels as though you're wilfully ignoring what I'm saying. When I made those edits I didn't realise it was an ENGVAR issue. You will note that I have reverted each of those edits that were against policy, which I did earlier today before also bringing this article into line with the

2275:

to get local consensus on this kind of thing, which is why ENGVAR exists. Leave it alone, or waste the community's time with an RFC but stop wasting your time and mine making useless arguments here. I don't care if it says "an " or "a" - what is not acceptable is messing with it.

3699:, thank you for your contributions so far. Truly. Knowledge, as you are surely aware, can be a bit of an intense place, and it's good to see editors become active again. You're clearly very genuinely interested in contributing to this project as a whole and in line with its norms. 2724:. Responding to edit-warring by repeatedly reverting, except in rare cases of blatant vandalism and a handful of other exceptions, makes you just as guilty of edit-warring as the other party. I suppose if I'd been more activist on this matter at the right time, I would have given 361:

links with a Google search. There is no value or precedent in including a link, and it indicates a preference for a particular brand, therefore on balance it is wrong. Incidentally I had never heard of this brand, so it would have constituted advertising from my point of view.

119:, not Tell Halal. To my knowledge there is no place, ancient or modern, called Tell Halal. The reference to the publication (note 2) by Zohary and Hopf appears to be correct. Unfortunately, this error in spelling was copied as such by other links. , 9:55 am EST, 28 May 2012. 3193:

From the abstract, the Khan article looks like a good source. If the reliability of the source is still in question, it would be efficient (although not mandatory) to discuss that before someone spends time summarizing the article. Does anyone object to using Khan's article?

214:

related to Arabic. For instance, another good luck sign mentioned in the same two sources is the Qara (bottle gourd), which is also the name of the bottle gourd in Arabic. I have started asking Sefaradim about this. I have not yet found anyone who uses fenugreek for Rubia.

2963:

glucose levels in the mother and diarrhea in the child". It seems reasonable to conclude there is insufficient credible literature to declare that fenugreek is effective and safe for breastfeeding. We could change "no evidence" to "insufficient evidence", if agreed here. --

2991:

Both of our Pubmed reviews use the term "insufficient evidence" or "insufficiency of evidence". We should stick with that wording. "No good evidence" has a different meaning from "insufficient evidence". Neither source says that there is insufficient evidence on safety.

2418:

No one further has weighed in on this and so I am making the change in accordance with policy, as I have done on each of the herb-related pages that you noticed I had edited, reverting a few of them to the "an herb" style. Each of these articles is now in accordance with

1976:

it was added as "a herb", not as "an herb". that is to say, it was added in the UK format, and should have remained in that format in accordance with Knowledge policy. I propose reverting to the original, but will wait for a day or two to assess any input generated. --

398:

Article has been tagged for needing sourcing since September 2010. I have revised the Cuisine section to remove unsourced material and am inserting a copy of the original version here. Please feel free to source and reincorporate the below material into the article!

2615:

would consider it reasonable to close the DRN filing and try to work this out between ourselves (as there's now more than two of us). I'm not trying to short-circuit anything, just try to get us all to a reasonable consensus in the most expeditious manner. Cheers.

2069:, that one must cite a reliable medicinal source? After all, traditional medicine is not always proven by science, but is still often supported by reliable sources that note its long traditional use as a remedy for certain ailments, whether proven effective or not. 2547:

Personally I would have gone to 3O first, but I guess we've crossed that bridge now. It seems a little disingenuous to claim that nobody's chimed in when the issue appeared to die almost a month ago and has only been active again for under 24 hours, but whatever.

3715:

of issues with how e.g. NYT covers China, but there's not a whole lot I can do with that; if NYT says it, for better or for worse, we give that a lot of weight here because we have to have some sort of heuristic to adjudicate claims of reality when our job is

2354:

3RR applies within a 24 hour period and I don't think is relevant. I admit that when I made those edits, I didn't realise it was actually a ENGVAR issue but rather just a mistake, hence my zeal in making the changes. You'll note that I have not reverted the

3761:

absolutely room for description of fenugreek as an element of traditional medicine in various capacities, including claims to its supposed efficacies; that is inherently worthwhile cultural and historical information fit for an encyclopedic article. Per

3543:

source (no high-quality clinical research would be published there), and the low number of subjects (122) and inconsistent dosing cited in a low-quality meta-analysis of only 4 poorly-controlled studies does not convince or qualify as a good source per

178:

Should not the lead sentence of an article tell what the subject of the article is? This lead sentence enumerates common names, and the taxonomic family in which it is placed, but never says whether we are talking about a plant or animal or mineral.

3400:

After my edit has been deleted twice, here's an explicit citing of source number 4: ”Side effects of fenugreek may include diarrhea; a maple-like smell to urine, breast milk, and perspiration; ”. I hope this makes my edit valid. Please put it back.

878:

diabetes in both humans and relevant animal models by reducing serum glucose and improving glucose tolerance. Fenugreek is currently available commercially in encapsulated forms and is being prescribed as dietary supplements for the control of

1347:, "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed." It doesn't get much clearer than "any material." What you're probably confused about is the standard, also in BURDEN, "Attribute all quotations and any material 2550:

There is an earlier conversation on this Talk page which seems to indicate that "a" was the original form of the article...I believe at that point it would win the ENGVAR argument, FWIW. Personally I don't have much of a horse in this race.

1007:

Turkyılmaz, C.; Onal, E.; Hirfanoglu, I. M.; Turan, O.; Koç, E.; Ergenekon, E.; Atalay, Y. L. Z. (2011). "The Effect of Galactagogue Herbal Tea on Breast Milk Production and Short-Term Catch-Up of Birth Weight in the First Week of Life".

3977:

The source mentioned (Josephus) does not support the claim that fenugreek was grown as a staple food in Galilee. The quote (see ann. 9) only mentions it as an (unusual) means in warfare. In De Bello there is not more than what is quoted

1804:

As I'm sure you are aware, the word is pronounced differently in American English and in British English. Knowledge has a policy regarding situations such as these - basically you should not switch articles from one to the other. See

1448:

You're simply repeating arguments which have already been answered, above. I'm only here to tell you what the policy is (and Ugog was only here to decline the 3O); what you and Kintetsubuffalo do with that information is up to you. —

1229:

The section blanked shows the different words for fenugreek used around the world. It has been contributed to by many editors for a long time without issue. Sourcing is not necessary for simple definitions that are not challenged.

3595:

The notion that you can apply the efficient market hypothesis to the pharmaceutical industry belies your fundamental lack of understanding about the realities of modern biomedical research and the drug development/approval process.

2682:, then, I'm inclined to believe that "a herb" is appropriate for the article, barring other considerations. I hope we can all agree that we're all acting in good faith here and trying to do what we believe is best for the article. 2205:

that would then generate endless RfCs or other forms of DR that would become a time sink across the encyclopedia. Please get consensus to change i; this is not something you can do unilaterally, much less across several articles.

2597:

hoping for more people to chime in- it wasn't explicitly seeking feedback and it got buried in a wall of text. I didn't know about 3O- I agree retrospectively that that would have been a better choice. Thank you for your comments.

2307:

If you keep trying to change it, you will end up violating 3RR. The only way you will be able to change it is through an RfC. In light of the fact that you went from article to article systemically changing "an herb" to "a herb"

1788:

The word herb uses an H sound in most English speaking countries, therefore "an herb" is grammatically incorrect. I have changed it to "a herb" - if anyone has a valid reason for reverting this, please feel free to post about it

3843:

sort of secondary evidence, a citation thereto is appropriate, but as medical consensus does not view fenugreek as e.g. a useful aid in lactation, it's important that we don't imply an equivalence between the two views (see

3839:— listing out these dozens of supposed benefits would have the effect of impressing on the reader that fenugreek is some sort of superfood, which is not supported by high-quality clinical research). For those where there is 2677:

should be applied to this article. While personally, speaking as an American (and a (gasp!) Vermonter at that), I favor "an herb", it appears that the article was originally written up using "a herb". Based on my reading of

1576:. I am consequently re-removing the information and will consider its reinsertion without any referencing by any editors involved in this discussion to be in bad faith unless there is a clear consensus to do so. Thank you. 2582:

went to DRN. I'm not saying you did anything wrong, if it sounds like I am, just trying to offer approaches that might yield speedier resolution. DRN is a pretty formal (read: time-consuming) process, a lot of the time.

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Also included in that edit was a removal of the objectively false claim that fenugreek is not recommended by any governmental health agency. This assertion completely ignores fenugreek's well-described uses in both the

1135:

fenugreek seed is widely used as a galactagogue (milk producing agent) by nursing mothers to increase inadequate breast milk supply. Studies have shown that fenugreek is a potent stimulator of breast milk production.

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No, you have just gone through four or five articles and made the same edit in each one, changing it to your preferred ENGVAR version. That is what happened. You have no claim to objectivity based on your behavior.

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So, according to wikipedia rules, just don't change it, even if other users change it? Or if is has been changed it should always be reverted to the original state? ie. first edit was "an" so always revert to "an" ?

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You're welcome! Glad I could help get this sorted out. Actually, I'm sorry I didn't pipe up earlier, as this page was on my watchlist, but...well, glad it's worked out now, unless there are any unresolved issues...

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Okay, looks a reasonable source - could be used (per its conclusion) to support a statement that fenugreek has at best only a marginal effect on breast milk production and that its safety has not been established.

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supply. Studies have shown that fenugreek is a potent stimulator of breast milk production and its use was associated with increases in milk production. It can be found in capsule form in many health food stores.

2719:

Fair enough, but that would be a conduct issue, not a matter of the content here specifically. If you felt that Porphyro was edit-warring, then the best course would have been to follow the recommendations at

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I'd like to see a mention of Kasuri Methi and a link to a wikipedia page on it. As a Westener I would love to know the story of how it became so popular with such a huge fraction of the world's population.

450:. The seeds are used as seasoning for many dishes or in powdered form to mix with rice, since the health benefits of added seeds (or leaves) to the diet, in moderate quantities, is considerable. The young 282:

By the way, thanks for making me do that research; I also discovered along the way that the source which Be'er Hagolah cites as "Mordechai, beginning of chapter 1 of Rosh Hashana", is actually Ran at the

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backed by high-quality research. That's what the above outlined paragraph was an attempt at getting at. This article is not about fenugreek as a medicine, after all; this article is about fenugreek.

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The quality of journals is useful to consider for representing information on this topic. The majority of publications are from alt med journals with low impact factors and poor reputations.

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If you do opt to change it, it might be worth adding a comment that the choice is intentional. Personally I favor "an", but I'm also in the USA and acknowledge that bias may be an issue.

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As TM noted above, reinserting information that has been challenged due to verifiability concerns (other concerns notwithstanding) without providing any sourcing is a clear violation of

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Khan TM, Wu DB, Dolzhenko AV. Effectiveness of fenugreek as a galactagogue: A network meta-analysis. Phytother Res. 2017 Nov 30. doi: 10.1002/ptr.5972. [Epub ahead of print] Review.

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Having only read the abstract, I felt it didn't provide information beyond what is already stated. Not sure how important it is to add it without more details in the full article. --

2340:. More seriously, as noted in that piece, style warriors are considered time sinks by the community, and if you keep doing this you are heading for a topic ban or indefinite block. 1678:. Once information has been challenged per BURDEN it no longer matters what editors believe (barring a consensus, which at least seems unlikely in this particular case); sources are 2020:

So my question is, do I have to cite a source for this information or can I update the page regardless (seeing as the information can be of interest to many with severe allergies)?

2423:. Please do not edit it without an RFC or DR. We are now within the spirit and letter of policy on each of these pages and I hope we can draw a line under this ridiculous matter. 2337: 1317:

case when Ugog Nizdast first blanked the section; his reasoning then was to the section itself. Only when his blanking was reverted did he raise the question of verifiability.

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to actively discover what reality is. At its core, it's to catalogue how reality is described in sources that we believe, as a community, are most likely to resemble reality.

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I agree with the other commenter that Wiki seems to be biased against traditional medicine. If the Wiki article is just going to parrot the NIH site, why bother having one?

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in it, and seems to have an extra classification. I know from grade 11 biology that the taxonomy classifications are: Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species.

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Fenugreek green is a very popular curry cooked in the major sub-continental region of India, Pakistan and Nepal usually together with potatoes and/or spinach, and eaten with

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As an aside, I'm battling a pretty horrible head-cold right now, so if I haven't handled this with as much tact and diplomacy as I might have, I offer my deepest apologies!

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A tag at the end of a section or paragraph ordinarily challenges everything unsourced in the paragraph, but that question is moot since Kintetsubuffalo removed all of it in

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I'm very new to Knowledge editing, and haven't quite mastered making changes, but I noticed that the taxonomic classification of this plant isn't right. It does not include

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and not supported by the source you provided, which was unacceptable in any case per MEDRS. Also, do not abuse this talk page as a forum to discuss personal experiences.

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I have ignored nothing, I have explained myself. If you do not accept my explanation that is one thing, but it is there. If we do not agree, then let's seek resolution.

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The NCCIH source was not felicitously summarized: while we know about fenugreek's adverse effects, what isn't known is whether it has any medical worth. Reworded to fix!

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Sure thing; happy to help! I don't know whether I'd be considered an "involved" editor at this point, but I have some (not much) experience working at 3O and DRN if you

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I disagree with your paraphrasing but will not be a stickler about this issue. Why did you remove "is commonly used"? That is a well-sourced fact as I described above.

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In Turkish cuisine, fenugreek seeds are used for making a paste known as çemen. Cumin, black pepper, and other spices are added into it, especially to make pastırma."

3153:. The first ref from 2013 (available to the non-subscribing public only as an abstract) and the second ref in a weak journal from 2011 add nothing further. -- 1938:

British, then it's labour; if the source is American, then it's labor. One doesn't change a British source to comply with American usage, or vice versa.

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et al., though, that sort of information needs to be properly attributed and qualified and should not be presented as an established medical claim.

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as a prophylactic against COVID-19 despite the lack of substantial, comprehensive evidence that it is effective for that purpose (even though there

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Several human intervention trials demonstrated that the antidiabetic effects of fenugreek seeds ameliorate most metabolic symptoms associated with

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province, where it grows abundantly - have a bitter taste and a characteristically strong smell. When harvested as microgreens, it also known as

3125:"research" subheading? With all appropriate cautions, of course. I know it's a smallish sample size but it's not The Ochsner Journal, whatever 288:

writing in Israel in the mid-16th century, and the Be'er Hagolah writing in Amsterdam 100 years later, would both be using the same edition. --

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is a book review from 1999 discussing a book of conference proceedings. That is not even in the same universe as a MEDRS source. Knock it off.

1215:. Unless both sides present their views adequately, 3O cannot be given. For more information, refer to the main instruction page. Sincerely, 3962: 3859: 3777: 3748: 2242:

it is what it is and it already was "an herb" when the previous editor (now indeffed) starting messing with it. just leave it alone already.

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According to my (Persian) mother the Persian name of fenugreek is spelled with an "n" not an "m" in Persian. Someone might want to fix that.

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The last sentence in the opening paragraph is very vague, and there is no reference to the issue in the section (paragraph) on Research. --

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You are right it was 7. The diffs are above. You made them all in the course of a single hour and 5 of them in the space of two minutes. .

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tag, months ago, was the challenge. Even if that had not been done, Kintetsubuffalo's deletion of the material for lack of sourcing would

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material after it has been removed as being unsourced, and (c) that the fact that it's been here for a long time is a reason for it to be

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start of this process- it didn't set us up for a very good conversation. I've learnt quite a lot during this process- thank you DonIago.

1143: 3677:. With respect to that component of the edit, it is not a question of whether you consider the Chinese or Indian pharmacopoeias to be 2023: 194: 3608:. Those are endorsed by governmental health agencies, by any reasonable definition of the phrase. I am reverting the original edit. 103:

I added a redirect page from serum cholesterol to cholesterol, since it covers the clinical aspects as well as the normal chemistry.

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does not make your case stronger; it makes it clear you are rules-lawyering to try and justify your grudge against anyone who wants

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Cooking section. When I did a search, I realized that the information below in Wiki is the same as the information on this website:

2065:, is there a specific limitation (restriction) in Knowledge policies that whenever one wishes to cite different modes and usages of 1391:

So there is a question re: verfiability? Is every definition in the section being challenged? Are any? If so, which one or ones?

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I'm not the guy who added it to the article earlier or a company shill. I'm sure the company could give two toots about wikipedia.

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We need to paraphrase sources; they say more than just "insufficient" - that the evidence is of v. poor quality. It's fine now.

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measurements and incomplete reporting." If you wish to start a discussion among experienced medical editors, post a topic at

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Sharma, RD; Raghuram, TC; Rao, NS (1990). "Effect of fenugreek seeds on blood glucose and serum lipids in type I diabetes".

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is popular but expensive, fenugreek is widely used in lower-cost syrup products as a maple syrup flavoring such as Mapleine.

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5 wasn't enough for you. Now it's just your vague assertion that "no high-quality clinical research would be published" in

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Did you remove my response to Iaritmioawp? Here it is again; please do not revert again until the discussion is complete.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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So you are requiring a source for every term in the section? No one has yet disputed the verifiability of a single term.

803:: hú lú bā), where they are considered to warm and tonify kidneys, disperse cold and alleviate pain. Main indications are 3827: 788: 3661:

Do you not see the issue with arguing "if it worked, people would be using it", but writing off the millions of people

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how I presented it. Zefr changed this to "no evidence of safety or efficacy" which is not at all what the source says.

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Also: can we all agree that the "not recommended by any government health agency" is objectively false and should go?

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article, and on the talk page, you can see my involvement in a massive discussion on how to frame the issue. I have a

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There's definitely room for compromise. A quick outline of what I think that might look like (forgive my lazy refs):

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I'm going to interject here as an uninvolved editor and only very occasional contributor to medical articles. First,

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It seems Knowledge has a bias against traditional medicine, to the point it will even contradict earlier statements.

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pinged users who were in the discussion above, but it seemed to me as though people's positions were clearly stated.

1823:

yes, exactly. Thanks Dei nk. There are many irresolvable things like this and to prevent endless stupid edit wars,

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Personally I've found that the more an editor seems to resist providing sourcing, the more I tend to insist upon it.

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I have warned you to walk away from being a style warrior and wasting everyone's time. You will do as you will.

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Fenugreek seeds are thought to be a galactagogue that is often used to increase milk supply in lactating women.

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that the DRN filing be closed. I'd close it myself except that I might be considered "involved" at this point.

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Thanks! I'll be deleting this information and will try replacing with new information from a reliable source.

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that you have a concern that it's unverifiable, but simply removing it is not a violation of policy. Regards,

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Since you continue to revert without any connection to any relevant Knowledge policy, it's time to go to 3O.--

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You are being the style warrior here on the side of "an herb", insisting on your viewpoint against policy.

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reorganized the sections, and highlights the research weaknesses and invalidity of traditional practices.

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Because it's vague, untrue (it's not used "for" this, because it probably doesn't work) and because the

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Having said that, I do think that A Georgian's replacement of this unsourced material was improper. The

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for the article, placing in it the template {{British English editnotice|form=editnotice}} Thank you--

2673:) (still visible farther up on this page) may be most pertinent, as the dispute seems to focus on how 1550: 1520: 1492: 120: 3958: 3953: 3855: 3850: 3845: 3789: 3773: 3768: 3744: 3739: 3636: 3377: 2871: 1943: 1903: 1882: 1846: 1743: 1705: 1637: 1598: 1538: 1510: 1439: 1396: 1322: 1235: 1183: 1168: 1139: 1098: 880: 342: 217: 182: 1102: 3578:

You can't just keep moving goalposts! Medline-indexed wasn't enough for you, impact factor of : -->

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is from 2017, not 2013. If anyone is interested in reading the full article, you can ask for it at

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about it, the issue of whether it is or is not recommended by any governmental health agencies is

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of an agent affecting lactation would be found in high-quality clinical journals, but there are

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It need not be present anywhere in the article as it is already present elsewhere on the page.

3632: 3583:, which seems to hinge on your personal interpretation of "high-quality". Continuously citing 3454:

I was looking to edit and add credible sources to the information already under the Uses : -->

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You are wikilawyering here to try to force your preferred style. I hear you loud and clear.

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So what's wrong with this randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, n=154, 90-day trial?

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To (hopefully) avoid future disputes such as the above (and the one further up on this page)

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dispute starts dragging on, so I won't reiterate that (beyond the fact that I just did...).

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Your 3O request has been again removed. A single response by an editor cannot be seen as a

764:, gitogenin, tigogenin, and neotigogens. Other bioactive constituents of fenugreek include 688:, fenugreek seeds are used as one of the ingredients in a traditional spice mixture called 3763: 3708: 3678: 3628: 3584: 3540: 3355: 2858:

has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the

1939: 1899: 1878: 1842: 1739: 1701: 1633: 1594: 1534: 1506: 1435: 1392: 1318: 1231: 1198: 983: 875: 871: 704: 610: 293: 269: 244:, and the Rambam (Perush Hamishnayot Kilayim 2:5, and Terumot 10:5) explicitly translates 3459:. Considering this information is not cited or linked to a source, should I remove it? : 1548:

It's at the very bottom of the side bar; you'll need to be on the article page to see it.

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You were wrong to do so! I'm just another Westerner but I do know that "Kasuri Methi"

47: 17: 2182:, that as "a herb" was the original wording, it is what should be used in the article. 1487:

is redundant as it largely duplicates what's already accessible to the reader via the

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I apologize that I do not know how to format these "properly"... (I think I got it!)

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discussion. If an editor will not discuss, consider the recommendations which I make

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think it's a credit to both of you that you are talking to each other at this point.

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It seems that you will not back down on this. I have requested a dispute resolution

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to treat various kidney, heart, abdominal illnesses and Diabetes. Seeds are used by

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We already have a more recent (2016) source (ref #19) on the lactation effect with

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yellow to amber coloured fenugreek seeds are frequently used in the preparation of

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By any standard for medical content on Knowledge, TCM and Ayurveda are considered

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template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

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I don't mind treating this as a 3O request if that makes things more expedient.

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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and 99% in Canada reported that they had used fenugreek to increase lactation."

633:, it is the main condiment and an ingredient added to the national dish called 3987: 3966: 3944: 3863: 3818: 3781: 3752: 3725: 3690: 3656: 3617: 3565: 3519: 3505: 3444: 3424: 3410: 3359: 3351: 3339: 3316:

Seems disingenuous at best, and dangerously misleading to diabetics at worst.

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I want to make an edit to the wiki page, but first wanted to ask a question.

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The best practice is to state that you're removing it because it is unsourced

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Thank you TM. A Georgian, reviewing this thread I see you explaining why you

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an edit-warring notice, essentially forcing the discussion here (hopefully).

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still object to this change...and if so, could you restate your rationale?

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Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed

834: 823: 815: 761: 757: 514: 494:, where it is often grown near the sea in the sandy tracts, hence the name ( 455: 3912: 3605: 3553: 3457:

https://www.diet-health.info/en/recipes/ingredients/in/gn283-fenugreek-seed

3150: 3113: 3096: 1211:- I had to remove this post because of lack of thorough discussion between 1028: 3892:, note that this study considers fenugreek among onr of several substances 3826:

is likely unsafe to use during pregnancy and lactation. The United States

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Knowledge:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Fenugreek.23A_herb.2Fan_herb

1167:, about the diffusion of fenugreek. A blotch of languages tells nothing.-- 1065: 1021: 3809:, replace it with a statement about the US FDA specifically if you want. 3624: 2931:

Regarding whether it is "commonly" used to augment milk supply: Yes, the

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the information should not require sourcing, but that's not pertinent to

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and diabetes by practitioners of complementary and alternative medicine.

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which is used as hair conditioner. It is also one of the ingredients of

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some small-scale (and flawed, as I understand) studies that suggest it

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not given yet another chance to be sourced, especially since it's been

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then isn't it also worth mentioning the first-runner-up's conclusion?

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stop reinserting challenged material without providing any references

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the challenge. I'm sorry, but you're just simply wrong: As stated by

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That is factually incorrect. I suggest you recheck my edit history.

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Good question. Information published on Knowledge is required to be

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Also, FWIW, Usernameistoosimilar is currently indefinitely blocked.

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Got pinged - not sure what the "Khan article" is. What's its PMID?

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It would be redundant if it were present elsewhere in the article

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Lucky that it isn't important. I can deal with UK or US English.

863:(milk producing agent) by nursing mothers to increase inadequate 256:

as a siman as well, that's all very well, just as Ashkenazim use

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and pseudoscience, so those publications are not acceptable by

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http://www.breastfeeding.com/all_about/all_about_fenugreek.html

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to be a bit more mindful of potential edit-warring situations?

674: 25: 3681:. They are endorsed by health ministries of their countries. 3492:. Try to find a better source, remove the text, and cite per 2762:(namely, leave it alone, as it is a complete waste of time) 3449: 115:

The ancient site where this plant was first identified is

3548:. We have two reliable overview sources for the article: 814:(Helba or Hulba). Tea made from the seeds is used in the 3173:

Knowledge:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request

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material. Once someone removes it for lack of sourcing,

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You can find it under ”What Do We Know About Safety?”

1862:- "a herb" vs "an herb" is 100% a dialect difference. 1841:

The usage of the source is what is not to be changed.

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does not approved fenugreek for any medical purposes.

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was justified because Phytotherapy Research is not a

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The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5061863

833:Fenugreek is frequently used in the production of 561:as a natural herbal medicine in the treatment of 260:; but if anyone claims that black-eyed peas are 3665:under the banner of "quackery"? If you want to 3602:Pharmacopoeia of the People's Republic of China 3488:for Knowledge as a source for itself, and also 3048:isn't a great source for anything non-trivial. 2084:claims about health, are claims about health. 1894:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/herb?s=t 810:In Arabic traditional medicine, it is known as 1827:is that you stick with the established style. 3450:'Uses' Section - Information without Citation 8: 442:, and the spice is often encountered in the 1533:I do not see the information in a side-bar 787:Fenugreek seeds are used as a medicinal in 3902:https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/fenugreek 3375: 937: 935: 915:"How to Series: Growing Methi (Fenugreek)" 731: 647:, is also one of four herbs used for the 412: 3890:https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32421208/ 1610:and it is inappropriate of you to ignore 1351:to a reliable, published source using an 745:Fenugreek seeds are a rich source of the 3913:https://www.drugs.com/mtm/fenugreek.html 2140:Your proposed prefaced text is entirely 3882: 3591:to be more than a mirror for drugs.com. 3085: 2977:"No good evidence" covers it, I'd say. 895: 841:. The taste of toasted fenugreek, like 306:This is an article not an advertisement 167:be our guest, and thank your mom for us 3824: 1055:European Journal of Clinical Nutrition 979: 975: 964: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1349:challenged or likely to be challenged 621:in Egypt) for the seed resembles its 7: 3430:Fenugreek seed tea as a decongestant 2856:request for help from administrators 2705:encyclopedia to build and maintain. 2188:The following discussion is closed. 997:interprets רוביא as black-eyed peas. 942:Gall, Alevtina (November 3, 2009). 903:http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/fenugreek 859:Fenugreek seed is widely used as a 545:cuisine. The word for fenugreek in 417:Original Version of Cuisine Section 2919:My edit on breastfeeding that was 1898:Which dialect did the source use? 673:, fenugreek seeds are prepared as 24: 1413:sourcing it is the first step. — 736:Original Version of Seeds Section 524:, fenugreek seeds are mixed with 3606:Ayurvedic Pharmacopoeia of India 3321: 2890: 2847: 2831:The discussion above is closed. 1197: 264:he does so out of ignorance. -- 82:for "Greek hay," suggesting the 29: 3707:genocide. Even so, we have the 2960:This study used in the article, 1718:that question and objection. — 1614:without an explanation. Please 1355:." But that's the standard for 1266:) 15:14, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 711:, which is very popular around 2003:02:03, 10 September 2015 (UTC) 919:A blog called "Fenugreek Love" 585:), which is similar to Indian 298:02:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC) 274:18:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC) 1: 3390:18:24, 25 February 2020 (UTC) 3360:23:33, 28 November 2019 (UTC) 2052:19:21, 14 November 2015 (UTC) 2032:19:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC) 1985:16:02, 9 September 2015 (UTC) 1152:21:04, 14 February 2013 (UTC) 852:. By itself, fenugreek has a 371:19:23, 6 September 2009 (UTC) 230:12:50, 27 February 2008 (UTC) 199:14:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC) 160:23:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC) 95:21:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC) 3828:Food and Drug Administration 3637:such publications on PubMed. 3537:this low-quality publication 3520:03:22, 9 February 2022 (UTC) 3506:03:07, 1 February 2022 (UTC) 3479:02:33, 1 February 2022 (UTC) 3445:18:50, 16 October 2020 (UTC) 3346:Serious Medical Side Effects 3340:12:47, 21 October 2018 (UTC) 3285:22:51, 19 January 2018 (UTC) 3271:18:00, 19 January 2018 (UTC) 3256:17:43, 19 January 2018 (UTC) 3238:17:42, 19 January 2018 (UTC) 3224:17:38, 19 January 2018 (UTC) 3189:04:41, 19 January 2018 (UTC) 3163:19:46, 18 January 2018 (UTC) 3141:03:14, 18 January 2018 (UTC) 3058:04:13, 25 October 2017 (UTC) 3040:04:04, 25 October 2017 (UTC) 3020:03:44, 25 October 2017 (UTC) 3006:03:36, 25 October 2017 (UTC) 2987:02:48, 25 October 2017 (UTC) 2973:20:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 2954:19:46, 24 October 2017 (UTC) 2154:23:40, 6 February 2017 (UTC) 2136:23:18, 6 February 2017 (UTC) 2111:23:05, 6 February 2017 (UTC) 2094:22:31, 6 February 2017 (UTC) 2079:21:11, 6 February 2017 (UTC) 1762:19:46, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1748:19:29, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1734:17:43, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1710:17:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1696:16:34, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1666:15:50, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1642:16:03, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1628:14:57, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1603:14:54, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1586:14:19, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1559:04:16, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1543:02:58, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1529:02:06, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1515:01:43, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1501:00:25, 5 November 2014 (UTC) 1465:21:09, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1444:20:36, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1429:19:53, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1401:17:47, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1387:17:20, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1327:16:01, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1311:15:29, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1240:13:46, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1225:12:58, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1192:06:44, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1177:03:41, 3 November 2014 (UTC) 1115:20:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC) 789:Traditional Chinese Medicine 752:. They are also a source of 605:. The same paste is used in 595:, fenugreek gives its name, 389:01:46, 18 January 2018 (UTC) 136:Thank you for the correction 2731:Similarly, Porphyro, while 1962:14:09, 28 August 2015 (UTC) 1948:13:49, 28 August 2015 (UTC) 1933:06:16, 28 August 2015 (UTC) 1908:01:18, 28 August 2015 (UTC) 1887:21:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC) 1872:18:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC) 1851:17:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC) 1837:13:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC) 1819:11:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC) 1799:07:31, 27 August 2015 (UTC) 1648:request for page protection 845:, is additionally based on 557:), and the seed is used in 490:, especially in and around 108:18:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC) 78:. The word comes from the 4003: 3927:and scientific consensus, 3671:not biomedical information 3425:05:53, 19 April 2020 (UTC) 3411:05:51, 19 April 2020 (UTC) 2909:23:01, 14 April 2017 (UTC) 2884:13:50, 14 April 2017 (UTC) 2816:05:12, 14 April 2017 (UTC) 2802:02:36, 14 April 2017 (UTC) 2787:22:34, 13 April 2017 (UTC) 2772:18:25, 13 April 2017 (UTC) 2757:17:18, 13 April 2017 (UTC) 2715:16:18, 13 April 2017 (UTC) 2699:14:12, 13 April 2017 (UTC) 2640:22:43, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2626:19:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2607:17:46, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2592:17:26, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2577:16:54, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2561:16:39, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2527:14:03, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2509:14:00, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2491:13:54, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2476:13:51, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2462:13:49, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2448:13:46, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2433:10:44, 12 April 2017 (UTC) 2398:23:04, 16 March 2017 (UTC) 2384:23:03, 16 March 2017 (UTC) 2370:22:52, 16 March 2017 (UTC) 2350:17:18, 16 March 2017 (UTC) 2301:07:43, 16 March 2017 (UTC) 2286:00:44, 16 March 2017 (UTC) 2267:00:00, 16 March 2017 (UTC) 2252:21:20, 15 March 2017 (UTC) 2238:20:25, 15 March 2017 (UTC) 2215:17:09, 15 March 2017 (UTC) 1158:unsourced language section 609:for the same purpose. The 458:of fenugreek are eaten as 70:Comment moved to talk page 3967:21:28, 6 March 2022 (UTC) 3945:19:53, 6 March 2022 (UTC) 3864:16:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC) 3819:07:45, 5 March 2022 (UTC) 3782:05:24, 5 March 2022 (UTC) 3753:05:18, 5 March 2022 (UTC) 3691:23:37, 4 March 2022 (UTC) 3675:only requires ordinary RS 3657:22:49, 4 March 2022 (UTC) 3618:22:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC) 3566:19:24, 4 March 2022 (UTC) 791:under the name Hu Lu Ba ( 599:, to a hot paste used in 577:, Ethiopian and Eritrean 409:20:40, 3 March 2011 (UTC) 236:Your guess is just that. 3786:Thanks for weighing in, 3301:Contradictory statements 2833:Please do not modify it. 2190:Please do not modify it. 2009:A question about sources 1608:I didn't remove anything 952:University of Washington 699:, fenugreek is known as 681:Hashana (The New Year). 355:12:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC) 129:14:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC) 3988:07:53, 7 May 2022 (UTC) 3973:Staple food in Galilee? 3528:Lactation stimulant? No 2689:Thanks to both of you! 1122:Maybe yes or maybe not? 474:), after the region of 321:10:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC) 205:Rosh HaShanah custom == 2174:Consensus reached per 1295:–tagged for months. — 3954:WhinyTheYounger (WtY) 3851:WhinyTheYounger (WtY) 3769:WhinyTheYounger (WtY) 3740:WhinyTheYounger (WtY) 3581:Phytotherapy Research 2200:-- the community put 1022:10.1089/acm.2010.0090 537:Fenugreek is used in 76:inherently funny word 42:of past discussions. 3640:This Cochrane review 2338:Style Warriors' Hymn 2067:traditional medicine 2058:Traditional Medicine 1954:Usernameistoosimilar 1925:Usernameistoosimilar 1791:Usernameistoosimilar 1331:The addition of the 1276:Verifiability policy 881:hypercholesterolemia 822:women to strengthen 240:is another name for 86:found it funny too. 3167:The first ref from 3046:The Ochsner Journal 2034:Concerned allergic 1489:interlanguage links 793:Traditional Chinese 534:, a type of bread. 448:Indian subcontinent 252:. If Sefardim use 3396:Perspiration smell 3169:Phytother Research 2923:and subsequently " 2806:Thanks everybody. 2191: 974:Unknown parameter 797:Simplified Chinese 394:Unsourced Material 74:"Fenugreek" is an 3663:actually using it 3633:clinical research 3392: 3380:comment added by 2870:Please create an 2868: 2867: 2189: 2178:and specifically 1738:Is that a "yes"? 1142:comment added by 1118: 1101:comment added by 888: 887: 730: 729: 498:means "ocean" in 345:comment added by 232: 220:comment added by 201: 185:comment added by 67: 66: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3994: 3956: 3915: 3910: 3904: 3899: 3893: 3887: 3853: 3808: 3793: 3771: 3742: 3577: 3329: 3325: 3324: 3209: 3201: 3117: 3106: 3100: 3090: 2904: 2898: 2894: 2893: 2862: 2851: 2850: 2844: 2661:Anthony Bradbury 2224:, I am aware of 1979:Anthony Bradbury 1730: 1724: 1716:already answered 1662: 1656: 1491:on the sidebar. 1461: 1455: 1425: 1419: 1383: 1377: 1338: 1307: 1301: 1294: 1264: 1258: 1213:both the parties 1201: 1154: 1117: 1095: 1070: 1069: 1050: 1044: 1039: 1033: 1032: 1004: 998: 994: 988: 987: 981: 977: 972: 970: 962: 960: 958: 939: 930: 929: 927: 925: 911: 905: 900: 732: 639:. Fenugreek, or 623:Mandarin Chinese 567:clarified butter 480:Punjab, Pakistan 413: 357: 215: 180: 63: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4002: 4001: 3997: 3996: 3995: 3993: 3992: 3991: 3975: 3952: 3920: 3919: 3918: 3911: 3907: 3900: 3896: 3888: 3884: 3849: 3802: 3790:WhinyTheYounger 3787: 3767: 3738: 3709:Uyghur genocide 3571: 3530: 3452: 3432: 3398: 3367: 3348: 3322: 3320: 3303: 3203: 3195: 3122: 3121: 3120: 3107: 3103: 3091: 3087: 2917: 2902: 2891: 2889: 2860: 2848: 2842: 2837: 2836: 2194: 2185: 2184: 2183: 2171: 2166: 2060: 2011: 1786: 1728: 1720: 1660: 1652: 1459: 1451: 1423: 1415: 1381: 1373: 1353:inline citation 1335:citation needed 1332: 1305: 1297: 1291:citation needed 1288: 1274:section of the 1262: 1254: 1184:Kintetsubuffalo 1169:Kintetsubuffalo 1160: 1137: 1124: 1096: 1080: 1075: 1074: 1073: 1052: 1051: 1047: 1040: 1036: 1006: 1005: 1001: 995: 991: 973: 963: 956: 954: 941: 940: 933: 923: 921: 913: 912: 908: 901: 897: 884: 837:for artificial 737: 726: 418: 396: 340: 308: 207: 176: 148: 72: 59: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4000: 3998: 3974: 3971: 3970: 3969: 3917: 3916: 3905: 3894: 3881: 3880: 3876: 3875: 3874: 3873: 3872: 3871: 3870: 3869: 3868: 3867: 3866: 3832: 3799: 3795: 3784: 3721: 3700: 3673:and therefore 3593: 3592: 3529: 3526: 3525: 3524: 3523: 3522: 3468: 3467: 3464: 3451: 3448: 3431: 3428: 3397: 3394: 3382:107.15.162.239 3366: 3363: 3347: 3344: 3343: 3342: 3302: 3299: 3298: 3297: 3296: 3295: 3294: 3293: 3292: 3291: 3290: 3289: 3288: 3287: 3191: 3133:Angryredplanet 3119: 3118: 3101: 3084: 3083: 3079: 3075: 3074: 3073: 3072: 3071: 3070: 3069: 3068: 3067: 3066: 3065: 3064: 3063: 3062: 3061: 3060: 2937: 2916: 2913: 2912: 2911: 2866: 2865: 2861:{{admin help}} 2852: 2841: 2838: 2830: 2829: 2828: 2827: 2826: 2825: 2824: 2823: 2822: 2821: 2820: 2819: 2818: 2745: 2741: 2737: 2729: 2651: 2650: 2649: 2648: 2647: 2646: 2645: 2644: 2643: 2642: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2543: 2542: 2541: 2540: 2539: 2538: 2537: 2536: 2535: 2534: 2533: 2532: 2531: 2530: 2529: 2416: 2415: 2414: 2413: 2412: 2411: 2410: 2409: 2408: 2407: 2406: 2405: 2404: 2403: 2402: 2401: 2400: 2288: 2195: 2186: 2173: 2172: 2169: 2168: 2167: 2165: 2164:A herb/an herb 2162: 2161: 2160: 2159: 2158: 2157: 2156: 2096: 2059: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2010: 2007: 2006: 2005: 1991: 1973: 1972: 1971: 1970: 1969: 1968: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1964: 1920: 1919: 1918: 1917: 1916: 1915: 1914: 1913: 1912: 1911: 1910: 1809:for details. 1785: 1784:a herb/an herb 1782: 1781: 1780: 1779: 1778: 1777: 1776: 1775: 1774: 1773: 1772: 1771: 1770: 1769: 1768: 1767: 1766: 1765: 1764: 1722:TransporterMan 1683: 1682:for inclusion. 1654:TransporterMan 1644: 1570: 1569: 1568: 1567: 1566: 1565: 1564: 1563: 1562: 1561: 1478: 1477: 1476: 1475: 1474: 1473: 1472: 1471: 1470: 1469: 1468: 1467: 1453:TransporterMan 1417:TransporterMan 1375:TransporterMan 1365:the challenge. 1299:TransporterMan 1256:TransporterMan 1195: 1194: 1159: 1156: 1123: 1120: 1079: 1076: 1072: 1071: 1045: 1034: 1016:(2): 139–142. 999: 989: 931: 906: 894: 893: 889: 886: 885: 747:polysaccharide 742: 739: 738: 735: 728: 727: 697:Malay language 692:(шарена сол). 424:===Cuisine=== 423: 420: 419: 416: 395: 392: 381:Angryredplanet 376: 375: 374: 373: 363:91.104.145.190 338: 335: 332: 307: 304: 303: 302: 301: 300: 280: 222:152.62.109.164 206: 203: 175: 172: 171: 170: 169: 168: 152:81.216.206.250 147: 144: 142: 140: 139: 138: 137: 113: 112: 111: 110: 71: 68: 65: 64: 52: 51: 34: 23: 18:Talk:Fenugreek 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3999: 3990: 3989: 3985: 3981: 3972: 3968: 3964: 3960: 3955: 3949: 3948: 3947: 3946: 3942: 3938: 3934: 3930: 3926: 3914: 3909: 3906: 3903: 3898: 3895: 3891: 3886: 3883: 3879: 3865: 3861: 3857: 3852: 3847: 3846:WP:PROPORTION 3842: 3838: 3833: 3831: 3829: 3822: 3821: 3820: 3816: 3812: 3806: 3800: 3796: 3791: 3785: 3783: 3779: 3775: 3770: 3765: 3760: 3756: 3755: 3754: 3750: 3746: 3741: 3735: 3731: 3727: 3722: 3719: 3714: 3710: 3706: 3701: 3698: 3694: 3693: 3692: 3688: 3684: 3680: 3676: 3672: 3668: 3664: 3660: 3659: 3658: 3654: 3650: 3646: 3641: 3638: 3634: 3630: 3626: 3622: 3621: 3620: 3619: 3615: 3611: 3607: 3603: 3597: 3590: 3586: 3582: 3575: 3570: 3569: 3568: 3567: 3563: 3559: 3555: 3551: 3547: 3542: 3538: 3534: 3527: 3521: 3517: 3513: 3509: 3508: 3507: 3503: 3499: 3495: 3491: 3487: 3484:Yes, that is 3483: 3482: 3481: 3480: 3476: 3472: 3465: 3462: 3461: 3460: 3458: 3447: 3446: 3442: 3438: 3429: 3427: 3426: 3422: 3418: 3413: 3412: 3408: 3404: 3395: 3393: 3391: 3387: 3383: 3379: 3372: 3371: 3362: 3361: 3357: 3353: 3345: 3341: 3337: 3333: 3328: 3319: 3318: 3317: 3314: 3310: 3306: 3300: 3286: 3282: 3278: 3274: 3273: 3272: 3268: 3264: 3259: 3258: 3257: 3253: 3249: 3245: 3241: 3240: 3239: 3235: 3231: 3227: 3226: 3225: 3221: 3217: 3213: 3207: 3199: 3192: 3190: 3186: 3182: 3178: 3174: 3170: 3166: 3165: 3164: 3160: 3156: 3152: 3149: 3145: 3144: 3143: 3142: 3138: 3134: 3130: 3129: 3115: 3112: 3105: 3102: 3098: 3095: 3089: 3086: 3082: 3078: 3059: 3055: 3051: 3047: 3043: 3042: 3041: 3037: 3033: 3029: 3025: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3021: 3017: 3013: 3009: 3008: 3007: 3003: 2999: 2995: 2990: 2989: 2988: 2984: 2980: 2976: 2975: 2974: 2970: 2966: 2961: 2957: 2956: 2955: 2951: 2947: 2943: 2938: 2934: 2930: 2929: 2928: 2926: 2922: 2915:Breastfeeding 2914: 2910: 2907: 2906: 2897: 2888: 2887: 2886: 2885: 2881: 2877: 2873: 2863: 2857: 2853: 2846: 2845: 2839: 2834: 2817: 2813: 2809: 2805: 2804: 2803: 2799: 2795: 2790: 2789: 2788: 2784: 2780: 2775: 2774: 2773: 2769: 2765: 2760: 2759: 2758: 2754: 2750: 2746: 2742: 2738: 2734: 2730: 2727: 2723: 2718: 2717: 2716: 2712: 2708: 2703: 2702: 2701: 2700: 2696: 2692: 2687: 2683: 2681: 2676: 2672: 2669: 2666: 2662: 2658: 2641: 2637: 2633: 2629: 2628: 2627: 2623: 2619: 2614: 2610: 2609: 2608: 2604: 2600: 2595: 2594: 2593: 2589: 2585: 2580: 2579: 2578: 2574: 2570: 2565: 2564: 2563: 2562: 2558: 2554: 2528: 2524: 2520: 2516: 2512: 2511: 2510: 2506: 2502: 2498: 2497: 2496: 2495: 2494: 2493: 2492: 2488: 2484: 2479: 2478: 2477: 2473: 2469: 2465: 2464: 2463: 2459: 2455: 2451: 2450: 2449: 2445: 2441: 2436: 2435: 2434: 2430: 2426: 2422: 2417: 2399: 2395: 2391: 2387: 2386: 2385: 2381: 2377: 2373: 2372: 2371: 2367: 2363: 2358: 2353: 2352: 2351: 2347: 2343: 2339: 2336:) please see 2335: 2331: 2327: 2323: 2319: 2315: 2311: 2306: 2305: 2304: 2303: 2302: 2298: 2294: 2289: 2287: 2283: 2279: 2274: 2270: 2269: 2268: 2264: 2260: 2255: 2254: 2253: 2249: 2245: 2241: 2240: 2239: 2235: 2231: 2227: 2223: 2219: 2218: 2217: 2216: 2212: 2208: 2203: 2199: 2198:User:Porphyro 2193: 2181: 2177: 2163: 2155: 2151: 2147: 2143: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2133: 2129: 2125: 2121: 2117: 2114: 2113: 2112: 2108: 2104: 2100: 2097: 2095: 2091: 2087: 2083: 2082: 2081: 2080: 2076: 2072: 2068: 2064: 2057: 2053: 2049: 2045: 2041: 2037: 2036: 2035: 2033: 2029: 2025: 2021: 2018: 2014: 2008: 2004: 2000: 1996: 1992: 1989: 1988: 1987: 1986: 1983: 1981: 1980: 1963: 1959: 1955: 1951: 1950: 1949: 1945: 1941: 1936: 1935: 1934: 1930: 1926: 1921: 1909: 1905: 1901: 1897: 1896: 1895: 1892: 1891: 1890: 1889: 1888: 1884: 1880: 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