845:"kvens". On the other hand, Swedes called Finns as "finns" and the Sami people as "scridifinns" or "lapps", which became the dominant Swedish term later on. Separation of Finns and Sami people in Swedish sources is meaningful only from the 5-6th century onwards, when a specifically "Finnish" culture is detectable from archaeological finds. The then population of "Finland" seems to be a fusion of Swedish settlers (1st to 4th centuries) and the original coastal population. They lived mainly from cattle and farming, which clearly separated them from the wandering Sami people, living from gathering and herding of reindeers. The term "lapp" was loaned from Finnish, roughly meaning "outlying district" and its inhabitants. This division of terms remained dominant until the 20th century.
1279:
all sources refer to the Finns as one people. The word "Finn" had been in usage for a long time for Finno-Ugric people of
Fennoscandia, and not just about Finns but also about the Sami people who were still called as Finns by Norwegians in the early 20th century. Only occasionally some regional group, like Tavastians, are mentioned separately, but Finns were otherwise referred to as a single entity. The whole "tribal" concept was largely developed in the 19th century by national-romanticist historians who wanted to support the view that Finns were organized into larger entities before the Swedish era. About the word "Tavastian", its origin is completely unknown and whether it already before the Swedish era was equivalent to "hämäläinen" is just a guess. --
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Ugrian tribe living in the upper sources of
Vienajoki. Thus, it could also have been the first fur robbery raid against Perma or Syrjäns (Komis). Just for your knowledge, Syrjääni (People living far away in the edge) meant originally Syrjässä asuvat or Syrjäläiset ( taken from Hämes side living in land which was far away from Vienajoki). If they would have attacked against the Baltic Finnish tribe in Häme located in the Peninsula of Suomi (Finland), they would have had attacked against Karelians at first even to get closer battle with the Häme tribe. Where is a mention in old Russian sources, written later, of war between Kywa Rosh and Karelians in 1042?
1229:"I am aware that there is a dispute how to properly translate the word "Yem"." If there's dispute, it's not acceptable to translate it "Finn" in the text, especially when "Tavastian" seems to be more common translation even in new sources. Finnish article now uses "Yem" instead of "Finn" or "Tavastian" and tells it may mean both. That seems proper solution. English readers probably aren't interested in Tavastian vs. Finn-dicotomy, but that is not reason to decrease accuracy (after all, English readers aren't interested in subject at all :-)) . --
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1328:. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a
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all the
Finnish "tribes", if there even were such tribes at all. What exactly Russian sources meant with "Yems" and "Sums" remains unknown, as remains the reason for the short-lived parallel usage of the terms. If you want to specifically separate the coastal Finns from the inland Finns, using the English term "Finn" just for the coastal population is IMHO incorrect. --
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Are you seriously claiming that
Tavastians would not have been counted in as Finns? The term "Tavastian" came up very late, and was used only regionally. Not a single Western source presents Tavastians and Finns as separate people, or at least I am not aware of any. The term "Finn" pretty much covers
975:
The words Yam and Yem are referring to finnish tribe. Karelians use the degenerating word "Jämi" for them. (This is because members of this tribe have tendency to be quiet and look unhappy where as karelians are talkative to annoying extend.) Russians cant hear the last "i", they dont have letter for
848:
So, it seems rather certain that both Finns and the Sami people were originally called as "finns" by the
Germanic people. Furthermore, both Finns and Sami people (or the people from which the later groups developed from) used a Baltic word *zeme ("earth") about themselves, which later on developed to
664:
Some reiteration to my previous post. Just two of the chronicle entries tell about a
Russian attack against the "country of the Finns", presumably Finland, that is. Three other entries (including the 1042 entry) leave the physical location of the war open, just mentioning that Novgorodian troops were
779:
Hehee, was there any
Novgorodian State in 1042? I suggest Ghirla to take also little better study to history. Novgorod was in 1042 only one Principality (merely a declining "town") under Kywa (Kijev) Rosh. One quite reliable source list this war against Jems as a robbery expedition against the Finno
1278:
You are now directly assuming that dialectal terms used internally by Finns were also 1:1 applicable to the terms used by other peoples. Translating "suomalainen" as a "Finn" and excluding other early medieval
Finnish "tribes" from the meaning of the word is based on much later developments. Almost
810:
Where there any
Russian State at that moment? Only small Principalities, all smashed by Batu in 1237 - 1240. Then more than 200 years "Vassal Principalities" under Mongol - Tatars. The first Russian State can be said to have born with Romanovs in 1613. Please use Principalities for all other feodal
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Many modern books concerning these times makes differ between Finns, Tavastians and
Karelians. For example "Itärajan vartijat": "...aika luonnollinen lähtökohta on, ettei Suomen heimoilla, suomalaisilla, hämäläisillä ja karjalaisilla ollut mitään omaa vahvaa yhteiskuntajärjestystä. ... Vuonna 1123
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Another thing in the cronicles are the "finns" or "fenni" if you want to use the original latin form. This refers to the tribe that swedish have been in contact for a long time. But the own name for them is "suomi" witch comes from baltic (estonian) language and means "someone that comes from that
746:
In Finnish wikipedia, the name "jäämit" is used, meaning simply "Yam/Yem" - "Wars between Novgorod and the Yam". In late Iron Age/early Medieval context "Finnish" and "Finland"" meant mainly Finns proper, the south western Finnish tribe. The Yam is often identified with the Tavastians, although we
615:
Thank you for your kind words. If you don't care about the history of Finland, it does not mean that it has no value. Personal commenting aside, criticizing your strange claim that the attacks were "unilateral" when the best described of these conflicts is a Finnish attack against Novgorod, is not
1203:
As a side note, the first time Western sources use the term "Tavastian" is in 1237, very much around the same time that Russian sources separated them from the coastal Finns. For a reason or another, Tavastians' status was briefly promoted both in the east and in the west in the mid-13th century.
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proposes that the word "Yem" generally meant all Finnish tribes before the Swedish conquest as there was no purpose to separate them from each other earlier. This division did not last long, since Sweden soon took over inland as well, and by the end of 14th century most of present-day Finland was
1179:
The dispute about the right translation can be summed up in references, if there is a point in that. For an English reader, it is rather irrelevant what regional Finnish group was in question, as English language literature generally refers to Finns and Finland when they very briefly mention the
844:
Thanks for comments. This discussion needs some wandering on the unrelated territory, so please excuse me. By the early Middle Ages, the usage of the word "finn" seems to have separated to two different meanings. On one hand, Norwegians called the Sami people as "finns" and apparently Finns as
1066:
I don't think primary sources are used with care here where most of stuff is referenced only by primary sources. Rule says: "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source.". Even if using primary sources is not itself original research, there are some real original
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is "prolonged state of violent, large-scale conflict involving two or more groups of people", which pretty much applies. As for the comment that it has "no usage in scholarly literature", it surely has usage in Finnish history, which is however largely written in Finnish for Finns themselves.
930:
Prince Vladimir Yaroslavich was leading a fleet against the Byzantine Empire in 1043. In this context, it would sound awfully strange that a man of this kind of ambitions was personally fighting on the other side of the continent only a year before, wasting his time against a meaningless
1012:
I am pleased to inform you that this article has passed it's GA candidancy. I think that the article meets the GA criteria. However, there are a few things that could use improvement like the lead section needs expansion and there are some un cited paragrahphs that need to be cited. So
952:, another Finnic people living in between the Novgorodian area and Finns, are also omitted from the Primary Chronicle. The probable reason why Novgorod had not yet been able to spread its influence on the areas of Karelians and Izhorians was the fact that the strategic fortress of
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was still in Swedish possession, which ended only sometime later in the 11th century. Tensions between Finns and Novgorod seem to have escalated to war around the same time that the Swedish-Novgorodian relations soured and Novgorod took over rivers flowing in and out of
1258:
What is the "pre-Swedish rule medieval context"? Tavastians are mentioned in sources only once before the Swedish rule was cemented, and that source (a papal letter giving second-hand information on them) does not have anything to do with their separation from Finns.
880:
The words "Finn" and "Finland" are already available in contemporary Catholic sources in their later medieval meanings, so using them about the Russians' opponents in general and about the country in which they lived, seems to me the closest meaningful approximation.
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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on
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and the word "sum" emerged in the meaning of southwestern Finns ("suomi"). This separation was apparently due to the establishment of the Catholic church and Swedish dominance in the southwestern part of today's Finland, while Tavastians still remained
871:
Then to the terminology in this article. The Russian sources use the word "yem" about their opponents, which until the mid-13th century was the only label about the inhabitants living in today's Finland. From then on, "yem" started to mean specifically
1056:
No, it is not against the rule. Usage of primary sources is just required to be done with care. The sources are all well known and the article only summarizes their content. If there is original research somewhere, please point out the exact place.
1248:
In pre-Swedish rule medieval context, Finns and Tavastians mean different peoples. I don't understand why we shouldn't be as accurate as possible here, regardless if other English sources are not. Btw. Finnish sources are not "Western sources"?
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From 1240 (or more securely, 1256), Russian sources separate coastal Finns (Sum) and "inland Finns", Tavastians, (Yem) from each other. This seems to have happened at the same time when Sweden took over southwest:::ern Finland, the "Finland
1347:
Single sentences shouldn't stand alone, so statements like "Conflicts certainly got started in the early 12th century, however information on them remaining very scarce." either needs to be expanded on or incorporated into another
605:
I see that you are as stubborn as ever. Well, I don't care about the history of Finladn and I see no point in wasting my time on pointless bickering with you. I know from experience that may go on for days if not months. Bye,
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One thing: the Swedish immigrants probably came to Finland beginning from the 13th century or maybe some came a couple of centuries earlier (with Ahvenanmaa being colonized by Swedes maybe in the 9th century or so).
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In the Middle Ages (latest from the 11th century onwards), the word "finn" was already used about Finns outside the Norwegian/Icelandic cultural environment, which kept using "kven" for Finns and "finn" for the Sami
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Principalities and Commercial Republic of Novgorod when it exsisted. The Imperial Russian State 1613 - 1917. Sorry, but without knowledge of Finno Ugrian history you cannot write the history of Slavonic Russia.
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Kindly discuss the moves before doing them. I object this move. Attacks were not just Novgorodians against Finns, but Finns equally against Novgorod. Your new name "Novgorodian raids into Finland" is misleading.
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Finns did not form a unified "state" back then, but Novgorodians considered them as a single entity to fight with. How Finns organized their defences or attacks, is unknown. Knowledge's definition of
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Reference what is the meaning of "Yem" is given: "About the association of the term Yem with Finns, see Suomen varhaiskeskiajan lähteitä. Historian aitta XXI. Gummerus kirjapaino Oy. Jyväskylä 1989.
1351:"It is disputed whether "Yam" was an earlier form of "Yem" or altogether different people." The tag needs to be addressed, it appears it has been there near the same time as the GA nomination.
1324:. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a
849:
indigenous nomenclatures "suomi" (Finn) and "sápmi" (Sami). Internally and externally, the forefathers of Finns and the Sami people seem to have been considered as a unified group of people.
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is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Knowledge policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
553:
The term is a neologism; it has no usage in scholarly literature. There was no Finnish state at the period, so apply the term "war" to the conflicts in question is rather misleading. --
1071:". This shows dangers of using primary sources: if article was based in secondary or tertiary sources instead, one couldn't bring his own research translation "Yam = Finn" to it. --
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I am aware that there is a dispute how to properly translate the word "Yem". The reference I decided to pick has IMHO the most reasonable rationale. It can be summed as follows:
976:"ä" sound and russian "Y" is same as finnish "J". The tribe they are referring to is called "hämäläiset" form "häme" in modern finnish. (Tavastians form Tavast in swedish).
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a bit ambiguous in this time and place? West Norse sources, and probably the Swedish rune stones as well, use Finn and Finland in the meaning Saami, and the place called
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requires a reference (will get it as I remember where I got that info). The dispute itself is not difficult to come in terms with as it stems from the following facts:
715:
If you don't care about the history of Finland then why are you editing an article about the history of Finland? Jus so you could spread your biased Russophile lies? --
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I have delisted the article as a GA at this time since the above issues were not addressed. If they are fixed at some point, please renominate the article again at
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land covered with water". So hence the name of the place where they live is "Varsinais suomi" eg "real/proper finland" and so tribe is "suomi" eg "finn".
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I hope there is no objection to moving the page, so as to underscore the unilateral character of these conflicts. We may call them "wars" in the text. --
1436:, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with
1363:"However, a later chronicle entry from the mid-1220s said that Russian princes had not been able to dwell in Finland." Add a source for this statement.
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Karelian isnt original name either. But when you know the original tribe lives in plase called "Karjaa" or "Karjala" witch means "place for cattle"...
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The word "Finland" seems to have meant the current southwestern Finland right from the beginning. The respective term for the Sami area was "
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At the end of the day, the sources are pretty open for an interpretation, that the more offensive party where the Finns, not Novgorod. --
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So there we got 3 tribes that made attacks to novgorod. Yems, Karelians and Finns... Or "Jäämit", "Karjalalaiset" ja "Suomalaiset".
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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Didn't notice that. Newer book (Itärajan vartijat I, 2004) uses anyway translation "Tavastian". What your source says exactly? --
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It can be assumed that many more attacks took place, but this is what the Russian chroniclers considered worth writing down. --
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ruhtinas Vsevolod ryhtyi sotimaan hämäläisiä vastaan vaikeissa oloissa". Is this aspect really totally unknown to you? --
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1354:"or probably the market place in Koroinen a few kilometers along the Aura River inland" Address the citation needed tag.
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1389:. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page. I have modified the page history to reflect this review. --
1385:, it should have little problems passing. If you disagree with this review you can seek an alternate assessment at
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If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! --
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were an altogether different people somewhere in the southern plains of Russia. And a reference would be nice. --
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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I don't want to open a can of worms, and it is not a big deal, so I won't change it in the article, but isn't
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Prior to 1240, no Russian source separates Finns and Tavastians, just the term "Yem" appears in the sources.
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The first Orthodox Archbishop in Rostov, Leontij, mentions the tribes which spoke Russian as follows:
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research too: chronicle word "Yam" is translated as "Finn", while mainstream historians translate it "
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is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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Furthermore, there was no "Finland" at the time and Russian sources never mention that name. --
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Primary Chronicle's list of tributary people does not mention Karelians at all. This makes
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https://web.archive.org/web/20070608003759/http://www.narc.fi:80/Arkistolaitos/sahkoiset/
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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with
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628:* Novgorodians attacked Finns 4 times (5, if the 1042 attack was really against Finns)
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at war with Finns, not revealing if that was defensive or offensive. So we have:
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Summary about Russian chronicles for the readers confused about this discussion:
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There wasn't a Russian state at this time neither. Still the Novgorodians were
1591:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
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The betterness of two sources is not decided on the base of mere 15 years. --
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Knowledge:No_original_research#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources
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as Finns sound strange, since Karelians lived closer to Novgorod than Finns
737:. Since when has an independent state been needed for a people to exist? --
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The lead needs to be expanded more to better summarize the article, see
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under Swedish rule and all Finnish tribes were referred to as Finns.
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to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the
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Year 1042 sounds way too early for a Finnish-Novgorodian conflict
1042:(like Novgorod chronicle). it's against original research rule,
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All other spoke other languages than Russian (Old Slavonic).
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682:* Novgorodians were at war with Finns 3 times, location open
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52:. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be
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Knowledge article constitutes fair use. In addition to the
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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congratulations and I hope this article can improve more.
685:* Karelians were at war with Finns 1 time, location open
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Little more about Yam and Yem from different source
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1336:. Here are the points that need to be addressed:
1180:Novgorodian conflicts with the Finnish tribes. --
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693:06:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
642:09:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
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616:"pointless bickering". --
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1493:Finnish–Novgorodian wars
1426:explanation or rationale
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668:* Novgorodians attacked
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558:16:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
173:Swedish-Novgorodian Wars
164:Finnish-Novgorodian Wars
38:Finnish–Novgorodian wars
1484:External links modified
549:The term is a neologism
502:Associated task forces:
447:Coverage and accuracy:
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185:Delisted good article
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44:History good articles
1593:regular verification
908:Dispute whether the
167:only ended with the
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1583:After February 2018
1169:Based on this, the
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274:WikiProject Finland
1637:InternetArchiveBot
1588:InternetArchiveBot
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675:* Finns attacked
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798:- Severjans
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89:July 6, 2007
59:reassessment
57:
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37:
1391:Nehrams2020
1377:GA delisted
1369:Nehrams2020
1322:GA criteria
1134:No shit? --
988:—Preceding
959:Lake Ladoga
904:Yam and Yem
458:Structure:
54:renominated
1657:Categories
1644:Report bug
1348:paragraph.
1008:GAC passed
874:Tavastians
801:- Buzhans
786:- Poljans
150:column on
1627:this tool
1620:this tool
1069:Tavastian
950:Izhorians
931:opponent.
140:Main Page
1633:Cheers.—
1438:fair use
1422:fair use
1281:Drieakko
1261:Drieakko
1241:Drieakko
1206:Drieakko
1182:Drieakko
1166:Proper".
1097:Drieakko
1059:Drieakko
1025:Drieakko
1015:Kyriakos
990:unsigned
963:Drieakko
941:Drieakko
883:Drieakko
866:Lappland
862:Lappmark
858:Finnmark
764:contribs
756:Jmarkusp
752:unsigned
735:Russians
690:Drieakko
639:Drieakko
618:Drieakko
598:Drieakko
589:Drieakko
570:Drieakko
419:criteria
350:Medieval
120:Delisted
1497:my edit
1342:WP:LEAD
853:people.
828:Finland
679:3 times
672:2 times
670:Finland
320:on the
288:Finland
279:Finland
235:Finland
206:B-class
142:in the
79:Process
1383:WP:GAN
1334:WP:GAN
1318:sweeps
608:Ghirla
579:Ghirla
555:Ghirla
212:scale.
101:Listed
82:Result
1095:." --
877:free.
836:Berig
818:Finns
1475:talk
1430:this
1395:talk
1090:ISBN
998:talk
824:Finn
760:talk
76:Date
1601:RfC
1511:to
937:Yam
925:Yam
914:Yem
910:Yam
834:.--
814:JN
565:war
312:Low
1659::
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20:)
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