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mathematical objects depending on the quantity being "transported". For example, in transport theory, momentum flux density is a 2nd rank tensor, and so momentum flux is a vector, but energy flux density is a vector and so energy is a scalar. In general (is this *fully* general? Ask a mathematician not a physicist like me...) if we have any flux density, q, then the associated flux will be whatever sort of quantity results from taking an inner product between q and a vector.
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authors use the two terms interchangeably, and so it isn't so surprising that this article mixes them up. I don't have the time at the moment to try doing a rewrite of this article, but maybe I'll come back to this in a month or so after all my final exams are marked and have a go at it. The distinction made by the previous poster (28 Feb.) is what I think most experts would agree with.
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Totally agree. Flux and flux density are confusing terms in many text book and college education now. Flux should be consistently defined as the "flow rate", which is some quantity per second and the flux density is the flow rate per unit area, which depends on the property of the surface such as its
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Flux density refers to the rate of change in some quantity with respect to area, flux refers to the total change in some quantity over a given area found either by multiplying the area by the flux density, or by integrating the flux density with respect to area. Flux density is to flux as velocity is
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The "Flux as a surface integral" section and the accompanying image are confusing. Third row of image says "flux is proportional to area within boundary", in which flux is apparently meant as the surface integral and corresponds to rate/vector field in the transport definition. In the body text this
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is the flux density", which I would assume be flux in transport terminology. Two paragraphs above this we have "Conversely, one can consider the flux the more fundamental quantity and call the vector field the flux density." in which the vector field would again be the conserved quantity. It would
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I started a full rewrite of the article. I cannot say I am really satisfied with the current result, and I would like to apologize for that - I thought I could get it done without using the sandbox, but I saw too big. Do share any opposition to the general philosophy of how the contents are dealt
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I only changed the names "first definition" and "second definition" for "transport definition" and "electromagnetism definition", respectively, while respecting the original claim regarding the literature. I did check a bit the literature and it seems that the claim is correct that flux is some
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Speaking as a physicist in general, and a transport theorist in particular, I agree with the header that says this article is mixing up flux and flux density. As such I think this article is likely to confuse a lot of novice readers (e.g. physics students). The unfortunate thing is that many
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In laymen's terms: Flux density is the amount of flux per unit area. Similar to current density. Total flux describes the total amount of whatever the metric is referring to; heat, magnetic, photon, ect, but when it's described in terms of a per unit area (typically about the plane that runs
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A further criticism is that the statements in the introductory paragraph about whether flux is a vector or scalar an not correct. It is difficult to make a general statement about this because fluxes and flux densities of different types of quantities can be all sorts of different types of
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It refers to the "first definition" and appears to give two definitions in that sentence. Is the second half of the sentence a different definition? It says "vector field / function of position"; what does it mean to divide a vector field by a function of position?
471:'s edits are good, many are also poor. I would suggest leaving it as it is now, and then (as we normally do in wikipedia) make small edits that other editors can comment on or improve before moving on to another section. This works best for everyone. I think
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I agree with this paragraph except for the last sentence. Flux density is integrated wrt area to give you flux. Velocity is integrated wrt TIME to give you distance. So that is a misleading comparison, since we are talking about density (i.e. over area).
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I agree with you. This page is totally confusing. I think the problem concern more articles and this lead a lot of misunderstandings. I have these 3 definitions that should be checked, which if correct, would solve the problems a bit and would be a
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from "fine", and the figure change is a clear net positive in my view (not so much the figure itself, but the incomprehensible caption). Keep in my that "flux" is likely to attract readers who do not even know what a cosine is (unlike, say,
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the previous page was fine. further, your english isn't sufficient to start making huge edits like this. wikipedia is not an editing service. i understand you want to contribute, but i am very suspicious about what motivated this
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A step in the right direction would be to clearly identify the two definitions. In the last paragraph, it would make sense to omit the word "flux" when referring to the definitions. Can someone who understands this clean it up?
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It would be great if you could find the time to do your proposed rewrite to clear up the confusion between flux and flux density and also to deal with the case where the flux density is a tensor. Many thanks in advance.
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Maybe this is a physics vs. engineering distinction. Engineers define flux as a rate of transfer (e.g., heat, mass) per unit area, i.e., what is called flux density in your and other comments. See for example p 13 in
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Should read "Also acts as a generalization of heat flux, which is equal to the radiative flux when restricted to electromagnetic radiation" or similar. You should not imply that only infrared transports heat.
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perpendicular to the vector field, or whatever plane you are attempting to describe flux about, the plane doesn't always have to be perpendicular to the vector field), then it becomes flux density.
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accusation, maybe a quick look at either my user page ("from India", really?) or my contributions would tell you something. I would appreciate if you retracted that, or alternatively took me to
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Sorry for late reply. I must have misunderstood completely what the preference in diagrams was, people favored the old one after all. Thanks also for the clarification and heads up
Debenben.
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what do you think of this new "revision"? i find the figure far inferior and less informative than the old one (among other things). also, i find it suspicious because someone from india (
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The descriptions in the last paragraph are ambiguous. I think the only way someone would understand what is being said is if they already understood the definitions of the various terms.
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Only the parallel component contributes to flux because it is the maximum extent of the field passing through the surface at a point, the perpendicular component does not contribute.
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It seems that the section terminology addresses your point. It seems on purpose that we do not have a consistent definition of flux (and of flux density) throughout the article.
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flux is a rate of transfer per unit time through a surface, such as fluid flow, heat, electric charge, momentum or mass transport. But in a
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Totally aside, I believe the concept of flux was introduced by
Fourier long before Maxwell. Will look up references and add them if I can.
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is more informative. I created the new one for the German article because it fits better with the notation used in the text, i.e.
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Do revert if you want, I agree I should have gone through the sandbox and the end result was meh. However, the former article was
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Also acts as a generalization of heat flux, which is equal to the radiative flux when restricted to the infrared spectrum.
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has already commented that he/she should have done it this way or sandboxed a big project like this, so lesson learned.
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times used as a quantity that can be integrated over a surface and other times as the result of this integration.
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one glaring, and obvious example of the poor quality of this "revised" page is when you compare the old figure:
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with though, even if the article will badly need a copyedit (but the former version was worse in that respect).
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is the component of flux (type 1) passing though the surface, multiplied by the area of the surface (see
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If we can get consensus on what to name all three of these, I volunteer to make edits to the article. —
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the flux of a field through a surface is not a rate, it has nothing to do with time, such as flux of a
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image is referred to by: "See also the image at right: the number of red arrows passing through a
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flux (type 2) is proportional to the component of flux (type 1) that flows normal to the surface.
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on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article was the subject of a Wiki
Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between
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Flux density or
Fluence Rate: Quantity of objects that cross a unit of surface in a unit of time
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really be helpful to distinguish between the vector field, flux and flux density first.
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also, feel free to replace. In the mean time I have fixed my old one with a new caption.
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First definition: flux is a single vector Second definition: flux is a vector field
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The reduction in flux (type 2) through a surface can be visualized by reduction in
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Flux or Rate: Quantity of objects that cross a surface in a unit of time
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Apologies for the bad diagram (it was mine). I like the newer one by
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they are, but not in electromagnetic field theory, for example. --
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is the normal vector to an infinitesimal area then the three are:
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this should have been taken to sandbox and i am going to revert.
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quantities that are not refered to in the text (at the moment
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right now. I have reviewed both versions and although many of
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The third sentence seems to contradict the second sentence.
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Just want to point out that neither flux nor flux density
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Fluence: Quantity of objects that cross a unit of surface
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Should be only perpendicular component, not “parallel”
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You might like to confirm what article is intended as
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Even without the complication of tensors, I am seeing
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The terminology section is nearly impossible to follow
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Knowledge level-4 vital articles in
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again, keep in mind it is used in other wikis, too.--
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126:Knowledge:WikiProject Physics
120:and see a list of open tasks.
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