Talk:Flag of the United States/Archive 3

752:

either depiction is "wrong" but I don't think we should have both -- throughout the 1800s there were many unique star pattern variants actually used and we should not be trying to show them all. For that matter, the sizes of the stars on most the earlier flags are probably not "correct" -- they mostly use the same size as that on the 50-star flag, but flags in actual use almost certainly used much larger stars at the time (they were made smaller to squeeze 50 in there; even the 48-star flag used bigger stars). But, that doesn't make them "incorrect". Same with the orientation -- I don't think many flags at the time oriented the points upward, even though most of our examples do. But showing them that way isn't "incorrect" either, as it would still be a valid version of the flag under the definition of the time, and showing them differently would imply a change in the definition of the flag which never happened.

2239:(1) Okay, but sRGB is the official standard color space for the web (in HTML, CSS, SVG, etc.), which specifies particular RGB primaries, white point, and viewing conditions. There are still a variety of possible approaches to converting colors from paper or cloth to screen, but the device-dependent nature of a specific monitor’s color space doesn’t really enter into a conversion to sRGB. (2) Do you have links to the discussion about this (maybe we can have a discussion somewhere in common), or even better some advice from a source more authoritative than “some Wikipedians on a page somewhere”? I think you’re right that we should at least make the flags quite light, since they are used in the context of mostly-white Knowledge pages, and so any white stripes will appear darker than they would in grey or black surroundings. 2293:(a) sRGB is designed to be a rough approximation to an “average” CRT (uses the same standard primaries as HDTV, etc.), and most LCDs/their firmware/etc. are designed to be at least roughly similar to sRGB, and (b) any browser which follows the CSS/SVG/etc. specifications should use color management to map colors from sRGB to the color space of the display (for instance, Firefox on OS X will do this, and I believe that Firefox on Linux at least has an option for it, perhaps using LCMS? I have no idea what Windows color management is like these days – in XP it was virtually nonexistent, but it might have improved in the interim. Anyway, as far as I can tell, sRGB is the best we can do without going to each user’s house and characterizing his screen, and given that it’s written into the specs, is pretty future proof too. 3345:. That is, it reflects about 75% of the light that hits it (which because human lightness response is non-linear appears to be about 89% as light as that magnesium oxide layer). Of course, since most objects in a scene reflect much less light than that, the flag appears to have white stripes. A computer display is emissive rather than reflective, so there’s no “right answer” for making it appear the same white as the flag’s white stripes, under arbitrary viewing conditions. What we did here instead is assume that the flag’s white stripes should appear as white as the computer display can manage, scaling the other colors the same way. Does that make sense? I can refer you to color science resources if you are interested. – 3611:, and I don’t think your display necessarily does (if it’s the E1709WFP you have, Dell’s website claims it has “65% color gamut”; I can’t really tell from that what the primaries are, but they’re certainly not sRGB). As far as I know the only browser which will do proper color management of such untagged images (that is, will assume they are sRGB and then convert them to display color space) is Firefox, with the gfx.color_management.mode setting set to 1. Especially if you’re running Mac OS X < 10.6, you’re likely to see the blue much paler on your screen than it would be under properly color-managed conditions. This is a browser/OS/mediawiki bug though, not a problem with the SVG source image. – 4572:

different Government sources that state the same 2 set of colors, and are widely recognized as the official colors of the flag, Pantone 193 and Pantone 281, and have legal bearing since for some reason Congress has never been bothered their selves to specify the color, nor has the government put of a official flag graphic, and clearly aren't the colors used by the Army Institute of Heraldry in their graphics of flags which are explicitly referred to as 'Old Glory Blue' and 'Old Glory Red', after using a RGB to Pantone converter, I found out of most of my samples of the Color red used in the graphics, it came back as 193, the Blue, how ever, kept coming back as 300 with 281 being in the top 10

4697:

being specified and widely accepted as being the official colors, with the State of Texas even declaring them legally to be the official colors of the United States Flag, albeit in a slightly fumbled manner, even though it clear they were defying the colors for the U.S. flag by the preceding portion of the law, while you just come up with clearly incorrect colors based on a system that was never meant to be used outside of the field of textiles, and surely never as a measurement for solid colors, meaning even if you can get a RGB from the Color Cables, they are flawed due to their very nature no matter what system you use to 'correct' or 'adjust' them --

2401:

instance, “possibility c” to the right is so slightly colored that it’s unlikely anyone will think the stripes and stars are not “white” (do they not seem white to you?). Anyway, I really can’t tell whether the past contention was because of a slight color variation, or because the colors chosen before (for polish/italian flags) were distinctly grayish compared to the computer display’s white, and therefore in a setting of a mostly white web page (as compared to set against a sky, or some trees, etc.), looked “gray”. I hope these “many people” you’re speaking for will share their own opinions, because I’m far from convinced they interpret as you claim. –

2297:

flag is a slightly but distinctly yellowish white. That is, are users against the slight chromatic content of the white stripes of a flag, which make it appear as the flag would under any lighting conditions (i.e., slightly off-white), assuming the observer is adapted to the light source, or are they only opposed to the gray appearance that comes from using a color noticeably darker than the display’s white point? If the former, then something roughly like the “possibility c” above should be used; if the latter, we should set the white to display white, but still use a proper red and blue. –

4057:. Secondly, I have no idea what your italicized "out of date" document sentences is talking about. The law specifying the flag colors is quite explicitly clear when it says that the colors shall be Old Glory Red, Old Glory Blue, and White, taken from the TCCA’s Standard Color Card of America. I’ve linked twice to it, and it’s clearly linked in the article. I’m getting kind of tired of this argument, because instead of bringing any new evidence or careful reasoning, you are simply repeating yourself ever louder and more angrily, in telling us things we all already know. – 4376:

proportions of the stars; some flags present them in a smaller size than others. No wonder everyone keeps bickering at one another (and I'm sorry if I was somewhat rude to you Jacobolus several weeks ago). Now I'm beginning to question whether or not we will be able to settle this once and for all. I now believe that the flag specifications are all relative, and that there may be no two authoritative sources that are consistent with one another. The one Jacobolus dug up earlier may in fact be the only one that tries to specify the color tones in any way.

283: 190: 4081: 1874: 1862: 2556: 2384: 3976:

congress, law, or executive order that states those exact cable colors, which are for use on textiles, and not computer montiors, or else I will not recognize these colors you picked as the colors of the United States Flag, considering the pantones with reliable onscreen equivalents provided by Pantone their selves', are recognized by the State of Texas's Legislature and State Law and the London Embassy Website as the official colors, instead of your obscure cable colors which have no legal standing. --

1844: 2801: 2322:

exact conversion between device-independent color and uncorrected RGB). And the fabric of a flag may well be slightly yellowish when you take a photograph of it, but if you try to use a noticeable off-white in an abstract geometric flag image, then many people interpret it as indicating an underlying off-white color (not as an attempt to imitate cloth spectral reflection characteristics), and it can become a distracting point of contention (as seen in the past).

1032:), which William Barton had just leant to Thomson. That book apparently states that argent (white) "signifies Purity, Innocence, Beauty, and Genteelness", gules (red) "denotes martial Prowess, Boldness, and Hardiness", and azure (blue) "signifies Justice, Perseverance, and Vigilance". So, it seems pretty likely that the above symbolism was made up by Thomson specifically for the seal, and there was no such previous symbolism understood for the flag. 2886: 869: 31: 1832: 3158:

in terms of the Standard Color Card, and Texas flag colors have been redefined in terms of PMS coated colors, that’s somewhat irrelevant to my point above, which was that the colors of (among others) the Texas and Ohio flags in the document you linked to are quite obviously wrong. The blue of the Texas flag in that document does not look remotely like PMS 281 C, nor does it look like the Standard Color Card’s “Old Glory Blue”. –

3803: 2585:“In other instances the actual color of a material is lower in purity than the color name associated with it. A classic example of this is the blue of the national flag of the United States. The color of the official wool bunting is a very dark blue, but printed reproductions of the flag, as well as merchandise supposed to match the flag, present the color of deep blue much brighter than the official wool.” 3780:” put out by the Textile Color Card Association of the United States) in both Munsell and CIE coordinates (under illuminant C, reflectance relative to magnesium oxide). These coordinates were converted to sRGB by scaling white, and then performing a chromatic adaptation using the CAT02 transform. This is all quite clearly described in the footnotes. As for “hearing of them”, the 2754:. I’ve seen no evidence that the pantone swatches listed on the US London Embassy website (the colors formerly used for the flag image) actually match the colors of cheap mass-market flags. I suppose someone could buy a bunch of such flags and take spectrophotometric measurements of them; if you find a source that did, we could certainly mention it/cite it. – 4576:

colors are. I know I am looking at two official sources stating the same Pantone and those being accepted as the official colors, so unless a higher government source can be found stating those pantones are incorrect, I suggest we revert the flag back to the version that's based on the Pantones that were officiated by the State of Texas in 2001.

327:"From the loftiest point of its roof, during precisely three and a half hours of each forenoon, floats or droops, in breeze or calm, the banner of the republic; but with the thirteen stripes turned vertically, instead of horizontally, and thus indicating that a civil, and not a military post of Uncle Sam's government, is here established." 4508:. The Color Association of The United States. THE STANDARD COLOR REFERENCE OF AMERICA, 10TH EDITION and supplement, THE U.S. ARMY COLOR CARD. (These color references can be obtained from The Color Association of the United States, 315 West 39th Street, Studio 507, New York, NY 10018, telephone: 212 947-7774, www.colorassociation.com.) 1450:(along with many others) that I once stumbled upon while browsing online. Of course, the site specifically states that the proposals were made just for fun, so I certainly wouldn't suggest on taking this one seriously by any means. Still, it was something that I felt it would be best to show for the sake of convenience. 4231:

second point, still doesn't subtract from the fact two government sources have specified those to be the correct Pantone colors of the flag, with one dong so legally, which is sure as hell a hundred times more authority then some obscure manual that predates RGB computer displays with no legal standing.

4230:

pantones as the specific colors of the US flag, common sense would dictate those are indeed the official pantones of the U.S. flag simply being reclarified by the Statue to stop the confusion we have right now, though it would have made more sense for them to put it in the Definitions instead of as a

3895:

Basically, you’re getting all this information (and similarly for the “meaning of the colors” information) second-, third-, or even fourth-hand, and if some of the intermediaries have a poor methodology or misunderstand something along the way, you end up making even less supportable claims than they

3223:

Thegunkid -- I have to agree with Jacobulus here. The PDF file you linked to is interesting, but it does not attempt any precise color specification, and colors do not appear to be entirely consistent between different parts of the file. The area of device-independent color specifications is rather

3157:

Huh. First it says “(1) the same colors used in the United States flag;” Those Pantone colors given are assuredly different than the colors used in the US flag, even if they may be the best someone could do among colors in the Pantone swatch book. In any case though, even if the US flag is specified

2604:

WOW! Never would have guessed. That's pretty much news to me. It still doesn't look right to my eyes (despite the fact that it is the official tone), but I think that's just simply because I'm more used to the more common rendition. Well, I personally find this to be a complete jaw dropper, but I

2296:

I wonder whether the important part of the past off-white discussion re: other flags is about white not being *bright* enough period, or not being the precise white of the computer display. Because it’s clear from the spectrophotometric measurements of the cable colors that the white of a standard US

2242:

The main issue though, the reason that I brought this all up, is that the Pantone swatches used as source colors for the US Flag are not, in fact, good approximations to the official flag colors (and the US embassy in London which listed them as flag colors didn’t state anywhere how they came up with

2223:

It's generally a bad idea to render flag white as any other color than pure #FFFFFF or (255,255,255) in a non-photographic computer image. The result almost always looks "dirty", and the off-white is distracting to many people. Some people on Wikimedia Commons have insisted that greys or off-whites

2159:

If it was unclear, the colors currently used on Knowledge are the ones originally† from a US embassy website in London. The proposed ones are based on official documents. Secondly: I’m just starting a discussion here, not actually trying to force any immediate change. Since it’s not actually clear to

2124:

Besides, I believe that the common depiction of a flag and not its official specifications (regardless of what they may be) should always be the model of choice on Knowledge, primarily because they are more commonly recognized by the general viewer. If we can't find common ground here, then I see no

1945:

Needless to say, these three possibilities aren’t exhaustive, and we could try to figure out some different way of converting the color appearance from cloth to computer display. I could try asking around for some expert opinions from color scientists. At this point though, I’m just trying to start a

1004:

Yes, on the one hand, Congress and the U.S. government have not officially endorsed this interpretation; however, considering that the passage is contained in an official document, prepared at the Congress's request, which details the symbolism of the proposed Seal of the United States in pretty much

4696:

I mean really, you're the one who's asserting these colors are the 100% correct colors for computer display simply because some military document cited them, even though they clearly are not the correct colors, and every time I bring up the pan tone, you assure me the pantones are incorrect, despite

4286:

You know what would end this, if someone could acquire a official federal flag, and take 3 scans of it using a scanners, and taking 3 samples of each colors on each scan for a total of 9 scans for both blue and red, and just average them up to get to get a pretty solid set of colors, and considering

3872:

block in which the color falls; some of these blocks are quite large and the TCCA color is not necessarily close to the centroid), and your image is therefore quite inaccurate. I’ll try to put up some reasonable sRGB depictions of the 9th edition of the TCCA color card colors them sometime, at their

3602:

They make a big difference, because color varies dramatically from device to device, and depending on whether there is any color management, and what kind. Unfortunately Knowledge’s back-end software does not (as it should) apply color profiles to PNG previews rendered from SVG files. (There's a bug

3489:

Clearly these colors are incorrect regardless of who published it for Computer Display due to the over whelming Purple tint of the color and paleness, especially the Blue Canton, and based the official photos of the official flag where the colors are vastly different, for this we require Hexadecimal

2979:

That document says nothing about the colors. If you want to write a letter or call the Government Printing Office (or some similar agency), and you get a response with a clear description of colors intended for use on a computer display, that might be a useful project. Otherwise, this PDF file isn’t

2361:

than “best guess” can shoot for. Displays and other output devices (TVs, laptops, cell phone screens, printers, etc.) strive to deal properly with sRGB, because they know that input devices (digital cameras, scanners, consumer-level software) is also striving to output sRGB images. Everything mostly

2218:

There is no exact or one unique conversion between a device-independent color system such as Pantone or CIELab etc. and computer monitor RGB. Computer monitor RGB is inherently device dependent, dependent on external illumination, etc. -- so that precise translation from Pantone to computer monitor

1391:

I'd always wondered about that (it may have been misinformation elsewhere which was copied here), but good job doing the verification. Yes, we should remove that then. What about the statement "The United States Army Institute of Heraldry has plans for flags with up to 56 stars"? That seems like

1282:

I know I have read that the Cuban flag is in fact based on the American flag, however I can't find a reference online. The Cuban flag was designed by Narcisco Lopez, who wanted Cuba to be annexed by America. The connection is pretty obvious. I could probably find a book reference if that is needed.

699:

states "Many designs were in use that complied with the flag resolution, with stars arranged in a square, a wreath, rows, patterns, or the familiar "Betsy Ross" circle." Other artiles state the Betsy Ross was used widly in revolution, And a picture in the Betsy Ross article dipects it as the first

5028:

Isn't the idea of creating a graphic for what should only be a material (cloth) object such as the U.S. flag (or the military patch of the U.S. flag) part of the reason not to attempt to inject such folly as trying to create one? I would think the opposite of what's being tried here, an exceptional

4575:

And Again, where are those Cable Color to RGB Conversions of the colors specified for the Washington State flag I asked for? I seriously want to compare the colors you came up with using the same system to come up with the colors you found for the Colors of the U.S. flag to gauge how accurate cable

3832:

Well regardless this color standard is highly unsuitable for computer display after comparing the cable colors specified for the Washington State Flag to the pantone colors, and computer graphic provided by them on their website. Here I even made a comparison using the color cables specified on the

3204:

As is clearly described in the article (in much greater detail than before, even), various Pantone suggestions were given by different semi-official sources. Just because they were the closest PMS swatches someone could find (it's quite unclear who, or precisely when these originated), doesn’t mean

1711:

I’m not sure whether we care about making white different from a computer display white, but the red and blue – at least – should be updated, especially since whoever changed the colors from the ones I had put in a version of this flag a couple years ago didn’t really provide much justification for

1597:

I just figured out that I have access to old articles from the Journal of the Optical Society of America. One of them includes the spectrophotometric measurements and adopted standards (for the "TCCA Standard Color Card of America, ninth edition, and the U.S. Army Color Card") relative to which the

1498:

I eventually obtained a copy of that 1959 National Geographic; I do not see anything related to 51 (or more) star designs in there at all. However, it does provide a reference to remove the "original research" tag about nobody contesting Francis Hopkinson's authorship claims at the time; the 1959

1359:

As you know, any information submitted to Knowledge is unofficial and often suspect. The American flag drawings or images alleged attributable to The Institute of Heraldry are the work of someone else. If conceptual drawings of 51-star or greater flags exist, they are pre-decisional and would not

1077:

Whether the colors were chosen for their symbolism, or the symbolism was added afterwards, the symbolism is widely accepted. I am currently an active member of the military stationed in Naval Station Great Lakes, Chicago, IL. I have heard this symbolism used as part of a speach given by the CO of

1046:

Thanks, I suspected some such. Like most folks of that enlightened era, Thomson was prone to romantic misinformation of the kind that the du Martre book represents, which is still to be found today all over the Net. 18th- and 19th-century heraldry is generally regarded as the nadir of that peculiar

640:

There was really nothing approaching an "official" specification until later in the 19th century. During the 18th century, flags were not even fully standardized on 5-pointed stars. Anyway, it's somewhat doubtful whether either the "Betsy Ross" or "Hopkins" flags were ever used on a revolutionary

309:

I came here trying to resolve the claim made by many websites that there actually two flags for the United States. The one we are accustomed to, these sites say, are military flags. But there is another that was actually a "civilian" flag. But I do not find any conversation about this on Wiki, nor

5005:

This I do understand right now. It wasn't until a week or two ago that I found out how ignorant I actually was on the matter. I had based my assumptions upon the design(s) that was typically mass-produced for the general public. I knew from the start that the proportions of the entire flag were

4871:

Ok, yes I see now, but still, these only specify the textiles to be used for cloth flags, which are still regardless of who specified them inappropriate for computer graphics since they are, again, textiles, and just as bad as using a photo to attempt to acquire the correct colors, due to the fact

4659:

I am not trolling you, I am demanding you provide the RGB colors for the Cable Colors specified for the Washington State Flag, and now the Union Jack just to see how off or accurate these cable colors are since you are so assured of their on-screen accuracy to ether support or lessen my claim said

4244:

Oh and on a slightly unrelated note, I also went and checked the Ohio Flag Statue to see if it had any pantones listed, I found to my surprise it does not list anything other then the basic colors of the flag, simply "Red" and "blue", with nothing stating it is the same colors as the United States

4088:

Thegunkid -- I have no idea whether Jacobulus's detailed Pantone-to-quasi-sRGB calculations are correct, but what I do know very clearly is that "color science" is a rather complicated field which involves a lot of mathematics of various kinds, and that just taking the "hexadecimal" colors from an

2321:

sRGB may well be the wave of the future, but it seems to be only very partially implemented in the present, so that it can't eliminate the practical need to choose basic (uncorrected) RGB colors which are likely to display well under a variety of viewing conditions (and of course there's no single

2199:

Yeah, I think you’re right about "possibility a" – the grayish looking white is what it would look like if you posted a cloth flag in front of an extremely reflective white surface, but in a real scene (in front of, say, a blue sky, or some trees) the white is going to be substantially darker. I’m

2102:

Is that so? I reasoned that the photos would be a more accurate source of info (regardless of the type of digital camera) on the actual tones of the flag than whatever specifications you got from an embassy's website based in some other country. To me, a picture or a collection of pictures of an

1962:

I don't know about you, but none of the possibilities seem right to me. From all the countless numbers of flags that I've seen, the current image seems much more accurate than any of your proposals. All the possibilities in fact, depict the flag as if it were worn down by a very long exposure to

940:

Yup. Thomson said the colors on the Great Seal are the same as those on the flag, and gave the above symbolism (which was accepted by Congress). I guess you can read it either as just defining the symbolism for the seal (inheriting the colors but not any symbolism from the flag), or as inheriting

383:

And just to make clear -- the separate "civilian flag" is complete fiction. It was the flag for the Revenue Cutter Service, presumably so that ships they wanted to board/inspect knew that the approaching ship had legal authority to do so, and later co-opted by the related U.S. Customs Service for

214:

where he refers to the old Customs flag (variants of which are still used by Customs and the Coast Guard today) as "indicating that a civil, and not a military, post of Uncle Sam's government is here established" (i.e. distinguishing customs houses from U.S. Navy bases). Some people who read this

4148:

specified these pantone colors in their Government Code, and they are consistant with the colors specified by the London Embassy, which give them a hell of a lot more sway then these crap cable colors selected by one person, which can't even be applied to a computer display due to their nature as

3753:

Regardless of how small a difference there is between between different monitors, how did we even come up with the onscreen equivalents of these Cable Colors if pantone equivalents provided by pantone their self is not qualified enough to be used, considering before this horrible color choice, I

2071:

Um? There’s an official government document which specifies the colors of the flag in terms of the “cable colors”, which are themselves defined in terms of Munsell or CIE coordinates. I don’t think you’re going to “settle the debate” by the color interpretations of whatever digital camera someone

4458:

The only way to end this is ether revert to the colors specified by the State of Texas, Contact the Government Printing Office to acquire the Officially endorsed RGB, or acquire a official capitol flag from a congressperson and scanning it 3 times and sampling Red and Blue 3 times each scans and

3975:

colors, with you then linking to a article that does not exist that is cited as to be using an other out of date source from the 1940s that you are using to find these colors, regardless of the fact nether of the sources have the power to dictate the exact colors of the flag. Now cite the act of

2036:

I don't think it looks purple whatsoever. The current red on the flag is a lot identical to the red on the flags hoisted around buildings and people front yards, at least from what I've observed in all of the communities that I've visited in my area. So are the blue and the white. Maybe if we

4542:

As for why I’ve provided colors from the 9th rather than 10th edition of the Standard Color Card: I don’t have colorimetric data on the 10th edition, while there is a nice paper describing the process of standardizing the colors used in the 9th edition. The colors themselves did not change (and

4375:

I know that I have been silent for a long time now, but whenever I look more closely at the individual flags that I see almost every day, I noticed that they aren't actually consistent with each other after all, and not just in terms of the tone of the colors. They are also inconsistent by the

2400:

As for the slightly off-white color. If you look around at real flags, they are clearly slightly off-white. I don’t know what an “underlying color” is, but the “underlying color” of a flag is typically slightly off-white, so if it’s interpreted that way, that seems fine to me. I think that, for

1404:

back in April 2008, possibly influenced by the "up to 56 stars" statement, thinking that was an IOH design (which, apparently, wouldn't be public if it existed). Minor quibble -- the arrangement of the stars has been defined by a presidential executive order since 1912, not an act of Congress,

751:

There weren't really "two flags"; there was just a general design for the flag which allowed for a fair bit of variation. Really, a precise design was not made until 1912 -- the Army and Navy had somewhat precise definitions before that, but were different from each other. I don't think using

523:

The image of the flag patch in the article identifies it as the type worn on military uniforms. This is not currently true, as all flag patches today are reversed for wear on the right sleeve. I'm hesitant to delete it, because there may have been a non-reversed patch at some point in the past.

4571:

When the The General Services Administration get the power to legally define colors? Regardless Cable Colors were never meant for any use outside of of Textiles, unlike Pancode which are applicable across the field, and have official RGB colors, and have pantone colors exactly specified by two

2479:

What would be “more verification”? I asked a color scientist (Mark Fairchild), who suggested what I put as the “relative” colors (I’m not precisely sure what the most unambiguous name is for these; hopefully their definition is clear enough from the text/footnote) would be a reasonable way to

1116:

I cannot find any citation for it, I distinctly remember being told in school that the red of the flag symbolizes the blood shed by those defending this country. Is this merely a personal reminiscence, or can anyone else lend any weight to this theory? It seems to add a level of poignancy and

4317:

Huh. I looked at that page from Washington’s website. As far as I can tell there is no color space listed along with those graphics; we really can’t take them to be at all accurate when assigned the sRGB, without some specific knowledge; they are therefore of only marginal use as a basis for

4205:

The circumstances of Texas’s statute change are unclear, but the two numbered points in that Texas law are in clear conflict, so I’m somewhat puzzled by it. It’s certainly worth mentioning in the article (as it now is). Either way, notice that Pantone paint chip colors are no more obviously

3079:

As further evidence, the colors of several state flags are clearly wrong, most obviously Texas and Ohio, which are officially specified to use the same colors as the US Flag: just look, the colors in this document of the Texas, Ohio, and US flags are dramatically different from each-other.

1187:

is a search page for GSA documents. Searching on DDD-F-416E comes up with no information, but DDD-F-416F does. Searching with FSC (Federal Supply Class) ID 8345, both active and cancelled, shows some other documents which may be related. I'm getting errors at the moment, but they worked

2183:

If I saw a picture of the flag using the colors in "possibility a" with no explanation of how the colors were determined, I would wonder why it was gray, dark, in shadow, etc. The current colors, possibility b, and possibility c all look fine to my perhaps-less-than-discriminating eye.

2480:

reproduce the flag colors on screen. There’s no official US source on screen/print reproduction colors, so unless some official government agency decides to specify some, which seems quite unlikely, I think this is the best we’ll be able to do. Anyway, I’m glad it works okay for you. –

498:

The problem with that proposal is that this article is already quite long, and the "US civil flag" thing could be considered a rather tangential conspiracy theory lacking mainstream credibility. I think a separate article would be better, but a separate article would have to overcome

2628:

is just an interesting comment that gives us some idea that brighter colors than the “official” ones have been used for a very long time for printed reproductions of the flag, to the point where they maybe even seem “more correct” to a typical viewer than the actual official colors.

2224:

are theoretically "correct" for the Polish and Italian national flags, but this led to great controversies which resulted in pure white being used in images of those flags in most Knowledge contexts. I see little reason to start a new controversy of this type about the U.S. flag...

1167:, which lists the original 1970 specification, all activity on it, and the 2005 DDD-F-416F revision. It has PDF links to scans of the original documents. The 2005 revision no longer mentions the specific cable numbers, but the color names and reference document remains the same. 2690:

I'm not sure what you mean. Flags purchased by the US Federal government are required to match the “official” colors (and dimensions). The Pantone swatches don’t really match any flags I’ve ever seen. It’s not clear what the “actual” colors would be (if not those used now).

1351:

According to an email I received from the Army Institute of Heraldry, the 51-star design featured in this article (as well as other articles), which is uncited yet attributed as "proposed by U.S. Army Institute of Heraldry", is not proposed or endorsed by that organization.

3326:

I think you misunderstand. There is no universal definition of “white”. If you measure an official-spec flag’s stripes, you find out that it reflects some high percentage of incident light, but not all of it. By the 9th edition of the TCCA color card, if the value of

726:

There was an official flag -- there just wasn't anything approaching an exact official specification of the official flag until 1818 (and even the 1818 specification was an internal Navy document, which was intended for the regulation of flags used by the U.S. Navy).

3928:, converted to RGB by you, also, would you also care to convert the cable colors specified by the Washington Sectary of State as the official Colors of their flag to RBG so we shall have a proper comparison between those colors and the official version of their flag? 1887:

Just for reference, compared over at the right are the current colors and the colors converted from the standard (listed as "possibility a"), and pictures of the flag before and after the proposed recoloring. The current red in particular seems clearly too purplish.

3005:

Excuse me? How is a official PDF document produced by the Government Printing Office for Congress with a full colored scalable vector graphic of the U.S. Flag, a image file which can only be used on a Computer, not using the colors intended for use on a computer

2262:

Well, sRGB is not the answer to all problems, because sRGB info only guarantees device-independent display on a properly calibrated system, which the majority of random Encyclopedia website readers probably do not have. For past white/off-white discussions, see

1926:; this choice is a tiny bit arbitrary, but the resulting colors are either way dramatically better than the current ones), then we’d get the colors shown to the right as "possibility b". Or if we target our flag’s white to 97.5% of the lightness of #ffffff (i.e. 2356:

exactly describes the design goals and practical use of sRGB. It’s a “best guess” at a reasonable description of most displays under various viewing conditions. But it also precisely defines a set of primaries and viewing conditions that anyone wanting to do

1152:

I've already added a couple links to the note in the article, but just for reference, these are the links I came up with when searching for the government document which defines the colors of the flag (along with a ton of other stuff about how to make them).

2200:

going to send an email to a color scientist (i.e. a real expert), and see what his advice is about colors in sRGB (that is, viewed on a computer screen in an average surrounding) which would have the same appearance as a cloth flag colored per these specs. –

4407:

Wait wait wait, American Imperialist, are you seriously telling me a the Second Largest U.S. State's law that specifies exact Pantones, that are consistent with what the London's Embassy's has as the Specifications; against a 30 year old Manual that simply

3056:

As evidence that the colors might be arbitrary, consider that the proportions/positions of the stars in the image in the PDF do not match the official proportions. Why would the colors have been chosen by an expert, if the proportions clearly weren’t?

1199:

which says that document TT-C-591(1) was a 1934 specification (cancelled 1968) which by its title "COLORS, FOR FLAG OF THE UNITED STATES" apparently defined the colors for that period of time (no idea what it says; haven't found the actual document

2865:

JPEG whose color values depend on the lighting, the particular cloth used to make the flag, camera characteristics, etc. It's not at all simple to translate from such concrete photographic JPEG colors to the originally-intended abstract colors.

1907:), if the "possibility a" definitions make the white too murky seeming. I’m not sure what would be an appropriate choice though; it’s not completely obvious what the proper choice is for translating the white of white cloth to a computer screen. 2563:

By the way, an image of the flag using the colors now listed in the article is to the right. I will if there are no serious objections ask for an admin on wikimedia commons to replace the current US flag image with this one, in not too long.

1019:

Actually, that formed the law defining the Great Seal, and so was most certainly voted on and accepted (and therefore endorsed) by the Congress, and reaffirmed in 1789. (The Congress had rejected three previous seal proposals.) However,

4018:

than the colors used in the US flag, despite the fact they are set in ink in Texas State Law, and they are also thee same as the pantones cited by the London Embassy other then the fact they aren't the same as your precious cable colors?

4543:

indeed the 9th edition was cited in DDD-F-416E which was last re-affirmed in 2002), but it’s possible that the CAUS (formerly TCCA) has published some more convenient colorimetric data (e.g. if colorimetric coordinates under Illuminant

906:"The colours of the pales are those used in the flag of the United States of America; White signifies purity and innocence, Red, hardiness & valour, and Blue, the color of the Chief signifies vigilance, perseverance, & justice." 4356:. The first two don’t have any color profile or listed color space, and so their colors are impossible to judge. The third is a CMYK image tagged with a SWOP coated profile at least. It is likely a better source than the other two. – 468:

If an article regarding the "US civil flag" is unwarranted, perhaps a section on this article would do? Not so much about its (non)existence, but the relatively large "movement" around the internet supporting this modern myth. For,

3945:

Also why does the Army Institute of Heraldry use a set of colors explicitly specified as being Old Glory Blue and Old Glory Red in the captions of their graphics that appear to be ether based, or using the pantone colors officially

443:

That is not really a "military flag"... fringes on flags is more of a decorative custom used in ceremonial circumstances (often by the military, particularly the Army, which specifies its use in many situations, and terms them

2778:

Oh. Well I don't think that I will be able to dig up anything unfortunately. I did forget about the possibility of inadvertently putting in original research as well. I do wish I could be able to do something, however. :(

4986:

American_Imperialist -- There's actually a reasonably clear and exact official specification of the flag geometry (length of stripes, size and placement of stars, etc.). However, colors can lead to a lot of complications...

3399:

Properly, PMS numbers refer to object colors – special paint chips sold by Pantone. There is no single right way, as far as I know, to convert them to screen display, especially since these colors are out of the sRGB gamut.

3028:

It’s not a standard or specification, and there is no evidence attached to it that the colors weren’t just chosen arbitrarily by eye by some single person. It’s a PDF file, that appears to be the digital file intended for

2727:

More specifically, I mean the rendition with the brighter tone of blue. Since this is more common then the official rendition, wouldn't it make sense to show both versions of the flag on this article, or am I mistaken?

3178:, which according to their discription, use Old Glory Blue and Old Glory Red in their fringe, though they are heavily distorted by JPG Artifacts due to their small resolution, meanwhile for some reason the US flags on 3603:

about this in the mediawiki tracker, but who knows whether anyone is really paying attention.) Anyway, without color management, these colors will only be about right if your display has primaries, white point, and “

1598:

Flag colors are defined. (Apparently there’s a 10th edition of this standard, but I don’t know where obviously to find it, and my guess is that these definitions did not change between the 9th and 10th editions.)

3490:

RBG colors, which you seem to have a problem using which is odd to me since we are simply asking for the proper and official ones endorsed by the U.S. Government Printing Office, which will put this to rest. --

1902:

We could also pick some other luminosity to be our reference white point (that is, make all three of red, white, & blue a bit lighter than in my "possibility a" here, but still keep white a bit darker than

539:

VAcharon, "all flag patched are reversed for wear on the right sleeve" is false. This is only true for the Army. The Air Force wears a "normal" flag. It makes no difference whether expeditionary vs. garrison.

1729:

Personally, I would opt for using the standard’s white definition as well, since real real flag cloth is not a perfectly diffusing reflector, or even bright magazine paper, but I could go either way on that.

615:) and other articles that reference those years. But reading this article, I am inclined to believe that the "stars in rows" flag ought to be used for those instances. It should only take a single edit to 3033:

printing on some unspecified press. If it were a document specifically about standards for the colors of the flag, with the colors chosen described explicitly as authoritative, that would be different.

1563:

The subsections under it are "Folding for storage" and "Use in funerals", which should go under "Display and use". I think it should go under "History", but it should be titled "US postage issues". ---

669:, so outright removal would likely be reverted. I'd like to use the Hopkins flag for consistency with the table in this article, but don't want to start an edit war over which is the "right" flag. — 4872:

they aren't solid colors, but fabrics, unlike pantones, which is why I think we should change the colors back to the Pantones since these current colors are clearly incorrect by just looking at them.

1078:

the base during the living flag ceremony that took place today (the picture of which should be shown on the next army vs navy game). So whether or not it is official, it is the most popular view.

4520:

I’m really not sure how the federal specification for the flag has suddenly become “non-legal army manual citing obscure dyed textiles”. Such a characterization could be charitably called absurd. –

3300:

Well clearly these Cable Colors we are dependent on textiles, and not suitable for computer display, so why are we using those as the standard considering it had white displayed as clearly gray? --

4481:

I can’t tell whether you’re actually making any effort to read or comprehend anything anyone writes here, or are just being deliberately obtuse to be obnoxious, but here, it’s really quite clear:

1132:

If it's widespread, and documented to be widespread, then it could be included. The closest thing to an official U.S. government declaration on the subject is the Thomson text discussed above...

5029:

photograph of some current officially displayed flag, is the best way possible to convey the intended cable colors last decreed in Ike's executive order over the internet (i.e. Knowledge) today?

4825:

DDD-F-416F is the official US Government document which specifies the flag for all government uses. Every flag procured by any US Government agency must match the criteria specified in DDD-F-416F

3239:

You know what, at this rate, why doesn't someone contact the Government Printing Office and see if they can provide the official colors of the flag in Hexadecimal since Pantone isn't cutting it

1405:

but... it is true nothing would be official until something along those lines happened. Odds are the president would just approve a recommendation from the Institute of Heraldry, but who knows.

3470:

What do you mean “better than nothing”? What we have now is based on some careful research into the official colors, as described in Federal Specification DDD-F-416F. –23:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

3274:

colors, which can only be "correct" when calibrated in one particular set of lighting conditions etc. Pantone is not the answer to everything, but there has been a strong effort to make it

1331:

It's titled the way it is to match the naming convention followed by articles for flags of other nations. And, if you search for "American Flag" it automatically redirects to this article.

2658:

It depends somewhat on your display and the viewing conditions. For me, the pantone swatch version is quite noticeably more colorful, its blue is less purple, and its red is less orange. –

255:

What "detailed history"? The detailed history of U.S. Customs and Coast Guard flags, or the detailed history of "civil flag" conspiracy theories? If the former, then what we have is at

945:

symbolism from the flag. The pales are the vertical stripes, and the "chief" is the upper third area of a shield. I don't think any of the flag laws have defined any such symbolism.

563:

I removed the "material" about the flag being complex and the chinese word, ect. Maybe cover this further into the article if sourcable and appropriate, but not in the lead it seems. --

500: 407:

P.S. Hawthorne was probably wrong about the 13 stripes -- most versions of the flag have 16 stripes (the number of states in the U.S. when the first version of the flag was designed).

260: 448:), but there's nothing preventing civilians from doing the same. It's the same flag, as there is no intended meaning associated with the fringe, since it is purely decorative. See 2012:, sometime a few years ago, and from writing that down at Knowledge, those definitions spread out around the web. I don’t have any idea where that embassy website got them from. – 313:

Given the number of websites making this claim, I think it would be a good idea for whoever monitors this flag article, to verify or invalidate the claims these sites are making.

700:

flag; "The seal of the U.S. Veterans Administration uses the Betsy Ross flag to represent service to all veterans from the American Revolution to the present day." I think the

2897:

Finally after searching high and low for a Government agency that actually has a flag(though partially) on their website that's a graphic and not a photo, I finally found one --

2271:

etc. (there were a lot more contentious discussions about grey vs. white in Polish national symbols, but I don't feel like making any great effort to find them right now)...

3174:

Well considering the London Embassy also gave the same pantone colors for the U.S. flag, atleast it's consistent, meanwhile the colors appear to be consistent with the with

1117:

personal connection that supports the intense dedication Americans feel to being American, and perhaps should be included if it can be substantiated. Contributions welcome.

879:

The attribution of a quote on the meaning of the colors to George Washington (as is sometimes done) is certainly bogus, but on the other hand the very-well documented book

2707:

What I meant by "actual" was the rendition that is typically purchased by the general public, the one that more commonly displayed outdoors (at least from where I live).

4547:

instead of Illuminant C were known, that would obviate the need for a chromatic adaptation transformation) along with the 10th edition (feel free to call them and ask). –

4416:

colors that lacks any legal standing; of no overriding Authority on this matter? Maybe if it was a lil' ol' State Like Mississippi, but we're talking about Texas here.

4089:

image on a government website is not necessarily the answer to anything. The image at right was taken from a government website -- do you want to use its colors? --

695:

Considering the article states there was no offical flag till at least 1795 the table should reflect that too, At the moment it reads as a contradiction,. Even the

659:

Yeah, I kinda realize that, but I'm still wondering which of those is "better" to use for those battle articles. Flag icons are used on thousands of pages that use

4515:. The colors, from the Standard Color Reference of America, 10th Edition (see 2.2), of the US National Flag are as follows: Old Glory Red, White, Old Glory Blue 2423: 778:

Given the consensus that these alternate arrangements of stars in the canton are just as valid, I've added them to the list. I believe this satisfies the issue?

4318:

comparison. I agree with you though that Knowledge’s image of the flag of Washington should be updated to use the proper colors from the Standard Color Card. –

4953:

Hmm, odd, I've come across the Millennium Challenge Corporation, and they cite the same Pantones as the London Embassy, and the Texas State Legislature, AND,

1196: 1191: 5055:

Photos are great too – if you have a great flag photo, add it! – but there are all kinds of uses of flag images on Knowledge where they aren’t appropriate. –

2103:

actual flag is the deciding factor on determining the actual depiction of the flag, especially since I believe that your source of choice is rather dubious.

3440:

Why don't you go ahead and contact them? And as for above, I still think the Pantone RGB approximations at better then nothing considering that's what the

2808:

I for one think the new blue is horrible and way too pale and purplish with the red still looking maroon, therefor I propose this coloration of the flag--

2007:

In any case, I don’t know where the Pantone estimates for flag colors originally came from. I found them at the website of the US embassy in Britain, <

604: 4579:

Also the issue of the editions used were never relevant as I from where I stand stand, all cable colors are highly unsuitable due their limited nature.

388:, which includes the photo of a 1919 flag ceremony at a customs house often (deliberately?) mislabeled as something else. Another page on the hoax is 1613:

shown below each swatch (converted by me from xyY to sRGB by first taking the white point to be a perfectly diffusing reflector, then using CAT02 for

1373:

Therefore I am going to remove references to the Institute of Heraldry and instead caption it something like "an example of a possible 51-star flag".

4206:

convertible to sRGB than cloth swatches are. In neither case is there a single right way to approximate a reflective medium on an emissive display. –

360: 356: 89: 81: 76: 64: 59: 2160:

me what “common ground” would be, and since I haven’t exactly staked out any definitive position, I’m not even sure we can call this a “debate”. –

2928:

Well still, this is the closest I've gotten out of all the government agencies to actually have a flag on their website that isn't a photograph --

1588: 971:

That was Thomson's assertion, but it was simply his assertion. The Founding Fathers were no more unanimous on this than on any other matter. --

1726:

For what it’s worth, these colors seem to me much more representative of the American flags I have seen than the colors currently being used.

3224:

involved and sometimes counterintuitive, and just relying on "commons sense" and a few rough rules of thumb may not produce correct results.

256: 4627:

me. At some point in the not too distant future I’ll get around to replacing the Washington Flag and Union Jack images with proper colors. –

1542:

Not sure whether it's misplaced, but its header level seems to be incorrect with respect to the header levels of surrounding subsections...

207: 5006:

actually larger than those that you would see everyday, but I never would have guessed that the color tones were so inconsistent somehow.

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Yeah, that's either archaic or bogus, there IS a military flag though, that's just the normal flag with yellow-gold fringe on the edges

3777: 3655:

I have gfx.color_management.mode set to 1, also still doesn't explain why the blue is below 50% on saturation while Red is 352 in hue.

2620:

To be clear, the source for the colors shown in this image is still the spectrophotometric measurements of the TCCA color card paper in

834: 701: 616: 3868:

That source you linked does not actually show the TCCA color card colors (instead it shows a poor approximation to the centroid of the

1316: 918:"Pale" and "Chief" are technical heraldic terms for a vertical band and a horizontal band (at the top of the shield), respectively... 663: 611:, with the latter mostly being used for ship articles. The Ross flag is used widely in infoboxes for Revolutionary War articles (e.g. 176: 140: 1360:

be releasable to the public. Any changes to the American Flag design would require appropriate legislation passed by the Congress.

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Hi, I have no idea how to do this myself, I just thought I would point out that the Cuban flag definitely belongs in this section.

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RGB is only possible for a particular monitor which has been carefully calibrated under one particular set of lighting conditions.

4344:

A particular point of confusion: the same Washington State website provides several graphics with dramatically different colors:

1178: 1171: 2354:“practical need to choose basic (uncorrected) RGB colors which are likely to display well under a variety of viewing conditions” 4909:

Oh and sorry for the earlier misunderstanding, I just saw 'General Services' and thought 'Joint Services' as in the Military --

4612: 3671: 3255: 3120: 2912:“The Government” is not some single omniscient monolithic thing. The GAO is not an especially reliable source about the flag. – 1256: 4226:

Yes but pantone atleast provides equivalents on their website, and for Texas, considering the Embassy Of London specified the

2422:

You do know that there's a country-western song titled "There Ain't No Yellow in the Red White and Blue"? If you try to make

5011: 4381: 2784: 2733: 2712: 2680: 2610: 2509: 2462: 2130: 2046: 1968: 1455: 1024:

by Richard S. Patterson and Richardson Dougall (pages 80-81) says the definitions were essentially pulled from a book called

1005:

its final accepted form, it has considerably more weight than just being the personal opinions of some random individual....

343: 233:

Well that's rather crappy. It deserves the attention of it's detailed history. Maybe the deletion is the conspiracy.... BOO!

47: 17: 4391:

It’s a big country, with a lot of flags. It’s amazing enough that they can get everybody to agree on the basic design. :-) –

3718:

HSL/HSV “saturation” is nearly meaningless, and “hue” angle is non-uniform and rather arbitrary; to understand why read the

2504:

All I meant was that more sources, if available, would be helpful (as always). Maybe I just didn't chose the right word.

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is assigned to a layer of magnesium oxide (a diffuse reflector, but extremely reflective), then the white of the flag is

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I guess that the table is a nice compromise. Its okay with me for now. Hopefully we can find more verification soon.

1715:

The paper, for anyone who has access to the Optics InfoBase, is: Genevieve Reimann, Deane B. Judd, and Harry J. Keegan,

1400:

by an anon in 2005. The original image caption just said "proposed 51-star flag" by the way; the IOH part was added in

5034: 1210:

No idea if they help anything, but I thought I'd just note all this down here in case someone does find them useful.

619:

to effect that change in most articles, but I'd like to get some comments here before proceeding to do that. Thanks —

5083:

George, I already suggested that since these cable color approximations are highly inappropriate for graphics use --

1099:

It would seem appropriate, then, to at least discuss in the article the dispute over the symbolism of the colors.

38: 4494:

The General Services Administration has authorized the use of this federal specification by all Federal Agencies.

3441: 2243:

them), the red in particular not being yellowish enough, and the blue being too saturated and not purplish enough.

1369:(redacted, unsure if I should include the name) Research Analyst The Institute of Heraldry Department of the Army 5007: 4377: 3924:

Please do provide the RBG equivalents of the Cable Colors promptly, all I see is some cable colors, designed for

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For example, if we decide to target our flag’s white to, perceptually, 95% of the lightness of #ffffff (that is,

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DDD-F-416F, which in no way what so ever trumps the pantones specified by the State of Texas, which you say are

3524:

Just out of curiosity, what kind of computer display do you have, and what operating system, and what browser? –

3175: 282: 148: 3781: 1164: 1089: 483: 1525:

The section "The American Flag on US Postage issues" is misplaced. Anyone know where it is supposed to be? ---

432: 210:). Anyway, it's based on a misunderstanding -- there's a passage near the beginning of Nathaniel Hawthorne's 189: 3814: 2441:

Okay, I added a table, some text, and a few footnotes to the “colors” section of the article. Any thoughts? –

838: 2581:(Edited by Taylor, Knoche, Granville, Container Corporation of America 1950), about the colors of the flag: 1320: 1122: 180: 144: 2555: 2383: 1873: 1861: 1294: 1203: 5030: 4080: 4596:

Oh yeah and speaking of that military document, what are the cable colors specified for the Union jack?

3139: 4345: 2800: 1843: 788: 339: 238: 4954: 2946:

Colors according to Official PDF Graphic From The Government Officer Of Printing Publication "Our Flag"

1472:

Anyway, someone should look at the July 1959 National Geographic article mentioned on the FOTW site...

4122: 3900:

game. This is why Knowledge stresses the use of reliable sources, and discourages original research. –

2959: 1446:

That is my assumption as well. Nevertheless, there is ironically the very same proposal made in this

4600: 4262:

to see how well they stack up to the official RGB flag graphic provided by the State of Washington --

3659: 3560:

A Dell, Flat Panel '17 1400x900 60Hz LCD, Why? Also my operating system and browser are irrelevant --

3243: 3108: 1614: 1606: 1602: 1312: 1286: 1081: 1054: 978: 857: 830: 612: 571: 564: 424: 331: 136: 5084: 4958: 4910: 4782: 4698: 4661: 4604: 4583: 4501:. This specification covers requirements for United States of America National Flag and Union Jack. 4460: 4439: 4292: 4263: 4188: 4020: 3985: 3977: 3847: 3755: 3663: 3561: 3491: 3445: 3301: 3247: 3183: 3143: 3112: 3007: 2965: 2929: 2898: 2840: 2809: 1500: 1406: 1260: 1211: 1033: 946: 753: 453: 393: 319: 5092: 5088: 5062: 5059: 5038: 5015: 4996: 4966: 4962: 4918: 4914: 4834: 4831: 4790: 4786: 4742: 4739: 4706: 4702: 4669: 4665: 4634: 4631: 4616: 4608: 4591: 4587: 4554: 4551: 4527: 4524: 4468: 4464: 4447: 4443: 4398: 4395: 4385: 4363: 4360: 4325: 4322: 4300: 4296: 4271: 4267: 4213: 4210: 4196: 4192: 4098: 4064: 4061: 4028: 4024: 3993: 3989: 3981: 3907: 3904: 3880: 3877: 3855: 3851: 3791: 3788: 3763: 3759: 3729: 3726: 3675: 3667: 3618: 3615: 3569: 3565: 3531: 3528: 3499: 3495: 3453: 3449: 3427: 3424: 3407: 3404: 3382: 3379: 3352: 3349: 3309: 3305: 3287: 3259: 3251: 3233: 3212: 3209: 3191: 3187: 3165: 3162: 3151: 3147: 3124: 3116: 3087: 3084: 3064: 3061: 3041: 3038: 3015: 3011: 2987: 2984: 2973: 2969: 2937: 2933: 2919: 2916: 2906: 2902: 2875: 2848: 2844: 2830: 2827: 2817: 2813: 2788: 2761: 2758: 2737: 2716: 2698: 2695: 2684: 2671:

Just one thought that I have here: shouldn't we have two separate images on this article that show

2665: 2662: 2652: 2636: 2633: 2614: 2598: 2595: 2571: 2568: 2541: 2538: 2513: 2487: 2484: 2466: 2448: 2445: 2435: 2408: 2405: 2369: 2366: 2331: 2304: 2301: 2280: 2253: 2250: 2233: 2207: 2204: 2193: 2189: 2167: 2164: 2134: 2079: 2076: 2050: 2019: 2016: 1992: 1989: 1972: 1953: 1950: 1895: 1892: 1737: 1734: 1716: 1618: 1574: 1551: 1536: 1508: 1504: 1481: 1459: 1437: 1414: 1410: 1385: 1381: 1340: 1336: 1324: 1298: 1268: 1264: 1250: 1236: 1219: 1215: 1141: 1126: 1108: 1093: 1059: 1041: 1037: 1014: 983: 954: 950: 927: 894:, secretary of the Continental Congress, wrote the following in a document on the seal of the U.S.: 862: 842: 797: 761: 757: 736: 713: 684: 650: 634: 592: 577: 552: 533: 512: 492: 461: 457: 436: 416: 401: 397: 384:

use on their customs houses (Hawthorne was describing a customs house). Some history on that flag

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Flag to add contrary to your earlier claims just so you don't make that unsupported claim again ;)

3140:

The State Government Code on State Symbols and it gives a pantone of 193 (red) and 281 (dark blue)

1717:“Spectrophotometric and Colorimetric Determination of the Colors of the TCCA Standard Color Cards” 541: 259:. In the latter case, you can try, but a previous attempt was deleted for the reasons set out at 4992: 4133: 4094: 4054: 3283: 3229: 2871: 2648: 2431: 2327: 2276: 2229: 2038: 1547: 1477: 1433: 1259:

was an issue. I fixed it (I think) but the category still shows them as members for the moment.

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Washington State Secretary's Official Website to the cable colors onscreen equivalents provided

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renditions of the flag, official and actual? Something tells me that somehow would be better.

2559:

Approximate “official” colors while keeping white white; these colors now listed on the article.

133:

The day 9/11 is listed under both times to fly the flag at half staff and times to fly it not.

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P.S. Since the discussion above, a version of the actual Customs flag has been uploaded. --

4624: 4582:

And could you contact the government offices for me? I can't currently due to some issues --

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I don't see much difference between the two unless I kind of squint at them up up close...

1831: 1628:, then converting XYZ to sRGB space and applying the sRGB nonlinearity), are respectively: 1048: 972: 891: 851: 3104:

Well the colors we are using in the current version sure as hell aren't the proper ones

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be the main flag image, then some people will think that you're trying to change that...

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The currently used red doesn’t look too purple to you, compared to physical US flags? –

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19:05, 24 March 2009 (UTC)ps, looks like it is covered near the end of the article. --

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FEDERAL SPECIFICATION: FLAG, NATIONAL, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND FLAG, UNION JACK

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never heard of Cable Colors, nor can I find anywhere showing how to acquire them. --

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Around the world, this is The AMERICAN FLAG, not that 50 word title this page has!

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Seriously, tell me how this army manual has ANY Authority at all in this matter? --

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It's worth noting that on the image's page, the author says nothing about the IOH.

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I don’t know how we could come up with a specific color for that that wouldn’t be

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a similar situation, and is unsourced. Looking back, the first IOH statement was

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This is the search page for the ASSIST database Defense and Federal specifications

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Using the same colors as the official graphic provided by the State Of Washington

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should be altered to reflect the uncertainty, perhaps two flags for the period.

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They say this other flag can be seen described in Hawthorne's "Scarlet Letter":

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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averaging all 9 samples to get a proper set of colors, which ever is easier. --

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happened to use to take pictures of arbitrary flags of unknown provenance. –

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Sorry I didn't notice this discussion before. I see two general problems:

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There was a Knowledge article on that, but it got deleted as a non-notable

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Irish Green 80210, Oriental Blue, Spanish Yellow 80068, and Eggshell 80004

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certainly won't question the source considering that it is a dictionary.

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is adequate for readers who wish to find out what Patriot Day is about. --

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The lede is too short, even with this material. I don't see the problem.

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We’ll keep this simple. Which military document are you referring to? –

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Seriously, how are you so god damn sure those Pantone colors given are

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which defines the “cable colors” (these were a swatch book called the “

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and misunderstood it have spun whole elaborate conspiracy theories...

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I mean no disrespect, but at this point I’m fairly convinced you’re

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Common sense dictates that State Law Specifying Exact Pantones : -->

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It’s rather necessary that flag be “dependent on textiles” – it’s a

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works, even when no real device-specific color management is used. –

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article makes that exact point and has virtually the same wording.

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then the official colors, when it is these Color Cables, which are

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http://www.gpoaccess.gov/serialset/cdocuments/sd109-18/sd109-18.pdf

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Also I am still waiting for you to provide the RGB equivalents of

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Except for the stars, that's not true; it's just urban legend. --

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What do the colors mean. They are not described in this article.

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http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Two-Flags.html

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I deleted Patriot Day from the list of days to fly at full staff

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Army Institute of Heraldry appeared to have used in their images

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Capitol sells official flags that have flown over the capitol

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sunlight. Simply put, these don't look right to me at all.

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We appreciate your interest. Thank you for contacting us.

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First, there’s really no need for you to cuss at me. See

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Based on the official Whitehouse photo of Barack Obama --

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So Proudly We Hail: The History of the United States Flag

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seem to use a different more saturated set of colors. --

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these images published by the Army Institute of Heraldry

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Knowledge:Articles for deletion/United States Civil Flag

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Flag_of_the_United_States_Coast_Guard#Coast_Guard_Ensign

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TCCA Cable No. 70075, Old Glory Blue: 8.2PB 2.3 / 6.1,

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In particular, the colors for red, white, and blue, in

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the objections that were expressed the last time around

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Feel free to contact the Government Printing Office. –

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TCCA Cable No. 70180, Old Glory Red: 5.5R 3.3 / 11.1,

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User:Oren neu dag/my sandbox1/United States Civil Flag

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cable colors are unsuitable for a computer graphic --

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Flag image found on official U.S. government werbsite

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As you can see Cable Colors are clearly unusable. --

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The info was taken from FOTW, I would assume -- see

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The reference of "up to 56" was 1185:http://apps.fas.gsa.gov/pub/fedspecs/search.cfm 2424:File:Recolored Flag of the United States-c.svg 3784:explicitly states that they are the colors. – 1647:TCCA Cable No. 70001, White: 2.5Y 8.8 / 0.7, 883:by William Rea Furlong and Byron McCandless ( 364: 8: 2041:can we settle this debate once and for all. 1229:This page (and probably other flags) is in 824:Blue = vigilance, perseverance and justice 4132: 4121: 4110: 3813: 1942:), then we’d end up with “possibility c”. 4429:Army Manual Citing Obscure Dyed Textiles 2009:http://www.usembassy.org.uk/rcflags.html 1583:Finally, authoritative color definitions 1158:https://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ 4107: 3270:In most cases "hexadecimal" colors are 2964:Hopefully this will put this to rest -- 2804:Flag of the United States Recolored.png 2037:scroll through the commons and analyze 1591:, but here it might get more eyeballs. 1204:A little bit of TT-C-591(1) information 605:Image:US flag 13 stars – Betsy Ross.svg 1521:The American Flag on US Postage issues 1305:Why is this page titled the way it is? 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4144:But I do know The State of Texas has 7: 4823:Okay, you clearly don’t understand: 3816:File:Flagofwashingtoncablecolors.png 2265:commons:File_talk:Flag_of_Poland.svg 3967:document(1981? Seriously?), simply 2577:There’s an interesting note in the 2269:commons:File_talk:Flag_of_Italy.svg 702:Template:Country data United States 617:Template:Country data United States 106:(which is a redirect as well as an 4497:1. Scope and Classification: 1.1 3722:article. I don’t see your point. – 2626:Descriptive Color Names Dictionary 2579:Descriptive Color Names Dictionary 24: 2125:point in continuing this debate. 1231:Category:Vexillological templates 3801: 1872: 1860: 1842: 1830: 607:is much more commonly used than 29: 4504:2. APPLICABLE DOCUMENTS. 2.2 2823:You propose it based on what? – 2039:a few actual photos of the flag 1257:Template:Flags of North America 3984:) 14:24, 1 August 2010 (UTC)-- 3778:Standard Color Card of America 2861:But that's presumably a lossy 1220:02:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC) 18:Talk:Flag of the United States 1: 4124:File:1e USFlagAgainstWall.jpg 3782:federal standard for the flag 3138:Speaking of Texas, I checked 1299:01:43, 11 November 2009 (UTC) 1142:00:48, 16 November 2012 (UTC) 1127:00:17, 16 November 2012 (UTC) 762:15:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC) 737:13:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC) 714:13:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC) 286:Official Customs Service flag 4781:then the official colors. -- 1509:02:54, 20 October 2010 (UTC) 1269:01:56, 20 October 2009 (UTC) 1251:19:57, 19 October 2009 (UTC) 1197:Cancelled FSC 8345 documents 1028:by Antoine Pyron du Martre ( 818:White = purity and innocence 553:09:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC) 462:03:13, 20 October 2010 (UTC) 316:Here is an example website: 300:23:49, 6 December 2009 (UTC) 273:23:48, 23 January 2009 (UTC) 243:23:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC) 225:21:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC) 185:14:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC) 149:18:12, 20 January 2009 (UTC) 2980:especially helpful to us. – 1060:16:55, 21 August 2009 (UTC) 1042:14:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC) 1015:01:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC) 984:20:39, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 955:05:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC) 437:22:03, 20 August 2010 (UTC) 402:14:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC) 377:07:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC) 348:06:18, 28 August 2009 (UTC) 175:What about the Civil flag? 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2380: 2379: 2378: 2377: 2376: 2375: 2374: 2373: 2372: 2341: 2340: 2339: 2338: 2337: 2336: 2335: 2334: 2312: 2311: 2310: 2309: 2308: 2307: 2294: 2286: 2285: 2284: 2283: 2257: 2256: 2244: 2240: 2212: 2211: 2210: 2181: 2180: 2179: 2178: 2177: 2176: 2175: 2174: 2173: 2172: 2171: 2170: 2146: 2145: 2144: 2143: 2142: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2113: 2112: 2111: 2110: 2109: 2108: 2107: 2106: 2105: 2104: 2091: 2090: 2089: 2088: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2083: 2082: 2060: 2059: 2058: 2057: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2053: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2024: 2023: 2022: 2000: 1999: 1998: 1997: 1996: 1995: 1978: 1977: 1976: 1975: 1957: 1956: 1943: 1935: 1919: 1908: 1906: 1899: 1898: 1878: 1871: 1870: 1866: 1859: 1858: 1857: 1856: 1855: 1848: 1841: 1840: 1836: 1829: 1828: 1827: 1826: 1825: 1821: 1818: 1814: 1811: 1807: 1804: 1800: 1797: 1793: 1790: 1786: 1783: 1779: 1776: 1772: 1769: 1765: 1762: 1758: 1755: 1751: 1748: 1744: 1741: 1707: 1706: 1699: 1697: 1690: 1688: 1681: 1676: 1675: 1660: 1645: 1624: 1584: 1581: 1580: 1579: 1578: 1577: 1569:Gadget850 (Ed) 1557: 1555: 1554: 1531:Gadget850 (Ed) 1522: 1519: 1518: 1517: 1516: 1515: 1514: 1513: 1512: 1511: 1489: 1488: 1487: 1486: 1485: 1484: 1465: 1464: 1463: 1462: 1441: 1440: 1420: 1418: 1417: 1348: 1345: 1344: 1343: 1306: 1303: 1276: 1273: 1272: 1271: 1226: 1223: 1208: 1207: 1201: 1194: 1189: 1182: 1175: 1168: 1161: 1149: 1146: 1145: 1144: 1086:69.171.163.118 1075: 1074: 1073: 1072: 1071: 1070: 1069: 1068: 1067: 1066: 1065: 1064: 1063: 1062: 993: 992: 991: 990: 989: 988: 987: 986: 962: 961: 960: 959: 958: 957: 933: 932: 931: 930: 913: 912: 911: 910: 909: 908: 898: 897: 896: 895: 866: 865: 847: 846: 825: 822: 819: 811: 808: 807: 806: 805: 804: 803: 802: 801: 800: 791: 769: 768: 767: 766: 765: 764: 744: 743: 742: 741: 740: 739: 719: 718: 717: 716: 690: 689: 688: 687: 654: 653: 600: 597: 596: 595: 560: 557: 556: 555: 520: 517: 516: 515: 466: 465: 464: 429:173.51.114.199 405: 404: 380: 379: 306: 303: 280: 279: 278: 277: 276: 275: 248: 247: 246: 245: 228: 227: 212:Scarlet Letter 172: 169: 168: 167: 130: 127: 99: 96: 93: 92: 87: 84: 79: 74: 67: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 5113: 5094: 5090: 5086: 5082: 5081: 5080: 5079: 5078: 5077: 5076: 5075: 5074: 5073: 5064: 5061: 5058: 5054: 5053: 5052: 5051: 5050: 5049: 5048: 5047: 5040: 5036: 5032: 5027: 5026: 5025: 5024: 5023: 5022: 5017: 5013: 5009: 5004: 5003: 5002: 5001: 4998: 4994: 4990: 4985: 4984: 4968: 4964: 4960: 4956: 4952: 4951: 4950: 4949: 4948: 4947: 4946: 4945: 4944: 4943: 4942: 4941: 4940: 4939: 4920: 4916: 4912: 4908: 4907: 4906: 4905: 4904: 4903: 4902: 4901: 4900: 4899: 4898: 4897: 4896: 4895: 4894: 4893: 4892: 4891: 4870: 4869: 4868: 4867: 4866: 4865: 4864: 4863: 4862: 4861: 4860: 4859: 4858: 4857: 4856: 4855: 4854: 4853: 4836: 4833: 4830: 4826: 4822: 4821: 4820: 4819: 4818: 4817: 4816: 4815: 4814: 4813: 4812: 4811: 4810: 4809: 4808: 4807: 4792: 4788: 4784: 4780: 4776: 4772: 4771: 4770: 4769: 4768: 4767: 4766: 4765: 4764: 4763: 4762: 4761: 4760: 4759: 4744: 4741: 4738: 4734: 4733: 4732: 4731: 4730: 4729: 4728: 4727: 4726: 4725: 4724: 4723: 4722: 4721: 4708: 4704: 4700: 4695: 4694: 4693: 4692: 4691: 4690: 4689: 4688: 4687: 4686: 4685: 4684: 4671: 4667: 4663: 4658: 4657: 4656: 4655: 4654: 4653: 4652: 4651: 4650: 4649: 4648: 4647: 4636: 4633: 4630: 4626: 4622: 4621: 4618: 4614: 4610: 4606: 4602: 4595: 4593: 4589: 4585: 4581: 4578: 4574: 4570: 4569: 4568: 4567: 4566: 4565: 4564: 4563: 4556: 4553: 4550: 4546: 4541: 4540: 4539: 4538: 4537: 4536: 4529: 4526: 4523: 4519: 4514: 4510: 4507: 4503: 4500: 4496: 4493: 4491: 4488: 4486: 4483: 4482: 4480: 4479: 4478: 4477: 4476: 4475: 4470: 4466: 4462: 4457: 4456: 4455: 4454: 4449: 4445: 4441: 4437: 4436: 4435: 4434: 4428: 4424: 4423: 4422: 4421: 4415: 4411: 4406: 4405: 4404: 4403: 4400: 4397: 4394: 4390: 4389: 4388: 4387: 4383: 4379: 4365: 4362: 4359: 4355: 4351: 4347: 4343: 4342: 4341: 4340: 4339: 4338: 4337: 4336: 4327: 4324: 4321: 4316: 4315: 4314: 4313: 4312: 4311: 4310: 4309: 4302: 4298: 4294: 4290: 4285: 4284: 4283: 4282: 4281: 4280: 4273: 4269: 4265: 4261: 4257: 4256: 4255: 4254: 4253: 4252: 4243: 4242: 4241: 4240: 4239: 4238: 4229: 4225: 4224: 4223: 4222: 4221: 4220: 4215: 4212: 4209: 4204: 4203: 4202: 4201: 4198: 4194: 4190: 4186: 4185: 4179: 4173: 4170: 4164: 4161: 4155: 4154: 4149:textile dyes. 4147: 4143: 4142: 4137: 4130: 4126: 4119: 4115: 4108: 4103: 4102: 4101: 4100: 4096: 4092: 4082: 4066: 4063: 4060: 4056: 4052: 4051: 4050: 4049: 4048: 4047: 4046: 4045: 4044: 4043: 4042: 4041: 4030: 4026: 4022: 4017: 4013: 4012: 4011: 4010: 4009: 4008: 4007: 4006: 4005: 4004: 3995: 3991: 3987: 3983: 3979: 3974: 3970: 3966: 3962: 3961: 3960: 3959: 3958: 3957: 3956: 3955: 3944: 3943: 3942: 3941: 3940: 3939: 3938: 3937: 3927: 3923: 3922: 3921: 3920: 3919: 3918: 3917: 3916: 3909: 3906: 3903: 3899: 3894: 3893: 3892: 3891: 3890: 3889: 3882: 3879: 3876: 3871: 3867: 3866: 3865: 3864: 3863: 3862: 3857: 3853: 3849: 3845: 3844: 3843: 3842: 3836: 3831: 3830: 3829: 3828: 3818: 3804: 3793: 3790: 3787: 3783: 3779: 3775: 3773: 3768: 3767: 3766: 3765: 3761: 3757: 3731: 3728: 3725: 3721: 3717: 3716: 3715: 3714: 3713: 3712: 3711: 3710: 3709: 3708: 3707: 3706: 3705: 3704: 3703: 3702: 3701: 3700: 3699: 3698: 3677: 3673: 3669: 3665: 3661: 3654: 3653: 3652: 3651: 3650: 3649: 3648: 3647: 3646: 3645: 3644: 3643: 3642: 3641: 3640: 3639: 3638: 3637: 3620: 3617: 3614: 3610: 3606: 3601: 3600: 3599: 3598: 3597: 3596: 3595: 3594: 3593: 3592: 3591: 3590: 3589: 3588: 3587: 3586: 3571: 3567: 3563: 3559: 3558: 3557: 3556: 3555: 3554: 3553: 3552: 3551: 3550: 3549: 3548: 3547: 3546: 3533: 3530: 3527: 3523: 3522: 3521: 3520: 3519: 3518: 3517: 3516: 3515: 3514: 3513: 3512: 3501: 3497: 3493: 3488: 3487: 3486: 3485: 3484: 3483: 3482: 3481: 3480: 3479: 3469: 3468: 3467: 3466: 3465: 3464: 3463: 3462: 3455: 3451: 3447: 3443: 3439: 3438: 3437: 3436: 3435: 3434: 3429: 3426: 3423: 3419: 3418: 3417: 3416: 3409: 3406: 3403: 3398: 3397: 3396: 3395: 3394: 3393: 3384: 3381: 3378: 3374: 3370: 3369: 3368: 3367: 3366: 3365: 3364: 3363: 3354: 3351: 3348: 3342: 3335: 3330: 3325: 3324: 3323: 3322: 3321: 3320: 3319: 3318: 3311: 3307: 3303: 3299: 3298: 3297: 3296: 3295: 3294: 3289: 3285: 3281: 3277: 3273: 3269: 3268: 3267: 3266: 3261: 3257: 3253: 3249: 3245: 3238: 3237: 3236: 3235: 3231: 3227: 3214: 3211: 3208: 3203: 3202: 3201: 3200: 3199: 3198: 3193: 3189: 3185: 3181: 3177: 3173: 3172: 3171: 3170: 3167: 3164: 3161: 3156: 3155: 3154: 3153: 3149: 3145: 3141: 3126: 3122: 3118: 3114: 3110: 3103: 3102: 3101: 3100: 3099: 3098: 3097: 3096: 3089: 3086: 3083: 3078: 3077: 3076: 3075: 3074: 3073: 3066: 3063: 3060: 3055: 3054: 3053: 3052: 3051: 3050: 3043: 3040: 3037: 3032: 3027: 3026: 3025: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3017: 3013: 3009: 3004: 3003: 3002: 3001: 2997: 2989: 2986: 2983: 2978: 2977: 2976: 2975: 2971: 2967: 2962: 2961: 2954: 2945: 2939: 2935: 2931: 2927: 2926: 2925: 2924: 2921: 2918: 2915: 2911: 2910: 2909: 2908: 2904: 2900: 2892: 2889:Based On The 2887: 2877: 2873: 2869: 2864: 2860: 2859: 2858: 2857: 2856: 2855: 2850: 2846: 2842: 2838: 2837: 2836: 2835: 2832: 2829: 2826: 2822: 2821: 2820: 2819: 2815: 2811: 2802: 2790: 2786: 2782: 2777: 2776: 2775: 2774: 2773: 2772: 2771: 2770: 2763: 2760: 2757: 2753: 2749: 2748: 2747: 2746: 2745: 2744: 2739: 2735: 2731: 2726: 2725: 2724: 2723: 2718: 2714: 2710: 2706: 2705: 2704: 2703: 2700: 2697: 2694: 2689: 2688: 2687: 2686: 2682: 2678: 2674: 2667: 2664: 2661: 2657: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2650: 2646: 2638: 2635: 2632: 2627: 2623: 2619: 2618: 2617: 2616: 2612: 2608: 2600: 2597: 2594: 2590: 2586: 2583: 2582: 2580: 2576: 2575: 2574: 2573: 2570: 2567: 2557: 2543: 2540: 2537: 2533: 2532: 2531: 2530: 2529: 2528: 2527: 2526: 2525: 2524: 2515: 2511: 2507: 2503: 2502: 2501: 2500: 2499: 2498: 2497: 2496: 2489: 2486: 2483: 2478: 2477: 2476: 2475: 2474: 2473: 2468: 2464: 2460: 2456: 2455: 2454: 2453: 2450: 2447: 2444: 2440: 2439: 2438: 2437: 2433: 2429: 2425: 2410: 2407: 2404: 2399: 2398: 2397: 2396: 2395: 2394: 2393: 2392: 2391: 2390: 2387:possibility c 2385: 2371: 2368: 2365: 2360: 2355: 2351: 2350: 2349: 2348: 2347: 2346: 2345: 2344: 2343: 2342: 2333: 2329: 2325: 2320: 2319: 2318: 2317: 2316: 2315: 2314: 2313: 2306: 2303: 2300: 2295: 2292: 2291: 2290: 2289: 2288: 2287: 2282: 2278: 2274: 2270: 2266: 2261: 2260: 2259: 2258: 2255: 2252: 2249: 2245: 2241: 2238: 2237: 2236: 2235: 2231: 2227: 2222: 2217: 2209: 2206: 2203: 2198: 2197: 2196: 2195: 2191: 2187: 2169: 2166: 2163: 2158: 2157: 2156: 2155: 2154: 2153: 2152: 2151: 2150: 2149: 2148: 2147: 2136: 2132: 2128: 2123: 2122: 2121: 2120: 2119: 2118: 2117: 2116: 2115: 2114: 2101: 2100: 2099: 2098: 2097: 2096: 2095: 2094: 2093: 2092: 2081: 2078: 2075: 2070: 2069: 2068: 2067: 2066: 2065: 2064: 2063: 2062: 2061: 2052: 2048: 2044: 2040: 2035: 2034: 2033: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2029: 2028: 2021: 2018: 2015: 2010: 2006: 2005: 2004: 2003: 2002: 2001: 1994: 1991: 1988: 1984: 1983: 1982: 1981: 1980: 1979: 1974: 1970: 1966: 1961: 1960: 1959: 1958: 1955: 1952: 1949: 1946:discussion. – 1944: 1938: 1934: 1930: 1922: 1918: 1914: 1909: 1904: 1901: 1900: 1897: 1894: 1891: 1886: 1885: 1879:possibility c 1875: 1867:possibility b 1863: 1849:possibility a 1845: 1833: 1823: 1816: 1809: 1802: 1795: 1792:current white 1788: 1781: 1774: 1767: 1760: 1753: 1746: 1740: 1739: 1736: 1733: 1727: 1724: 1722: 1718: 1713: 1704: 1698: 1695: 1689: 1686: 1680: 1679: 1673: 1669: 1665: 1661: 1658: 1654: 1650: 1646: 1643: 1639: 1635: 1631: 1630: 1629: 1627: 1620: 1616: 1612: 1608: 1604: 1599: 1595: 1594:Hi everyone, 1592: 1590: 1582: 1576: 1573: 1572: 1571: 1562: 1561: 1560: 1559: 1558: 1553: 1549: 1545: 1541: 1540: 1539: 1538: 1535: 1534: 1533: 1520: 1510: 1506: 1502: 1501:Carl Lindberg 1497: 1496: 1495: 1494: 1493: 1492: 1491: 1490: 1483: 1479: 1475: 1471: 1470: 1469: 1468: 1467: 1466: 1461: 1457: 1453: 1449: 1445: 1444: 1443: 1442: 1439: 1435: 1431: 1427: 1423: 1422: 1421: 1416: 1412: 1408: 1407:Carl Lindberg 1403: 1399: 1395: 1390: 1389: 1388: 1387: 1383: 1379: 1374: 1370: 1367: 1364: 1361: 1357: 1353: 1346: 1342: 1338: 1334: 1330: 1329: 1328: 1326: 1322: 1318: 1314: 1304: 1302: 1300: 1296: 1292: 1288: 1280: 1274: 1270: 1266: 1262: 1261:Carl Lindberg 1258: 1255: 1254: 1253: 1252: 1246: 1242: 1241: 1232: 1224: 1222: 1221: 1217: 1213: 1212:Carl Lindberg 1205: 1202: 1198: 1195: 1193: 1190: 1186: 1183: 1180: 1176: 1173: 1169: 1166: 1162: 1159: 1156: 1155: 1154: 1147: 1143: 1139: 1135: 1131: 1130: 1129: 1128: 1124: 1120: 1119:Jefferson1957 1115: 1111: 1110: 1106: 1102: 1097: 1095: 1091: 1087: 1083: 1061: 1058: 1052: 1045: 1044: 1043: 1039: 1035: 1034:Carl Lindberg 1031: 1027: 1023: 1018: 1017: 1016: 1012: 1008: 1003: 1002: 1001: 1000: 999: 998: 997: 996: 995: 994: 985: 982: 976: 970: 969: 968: 967: 966: 965: 964: 963: 956: 952: 948: 947:Carl Lindberg 944: 939: 938: 937: 936: 935: 934: 929: 925: 921: 917: 916: 915: 914: 907: 904: 903: 902: 901: 900: 899: 893: 889: 888:0-87474-449-0 886: 882: 878: 877: 876: 875: 870: 864: 861: 855: 849: 848: 844: 840: 836: 835:70.23.247.242 832: 826: 823: 820: 817: 816: 815: 809: 799: 794: 789: 785: 784: 777: 776: 775: 774: 773: 772: 771: 770: 763: 759: 755: 754:Carl Lindberg 750: 749: 748: 747: 746: 745: 738: 734: 730: 725: 724: 723: 722: 721: 720: 715: 711: 707: 703: 698: 694: 693: 692: 691: 686: 682: 679: 676: 672: 665: 658: 657: 656: 655: 652: 648: 644: 639: 638: 637: 636: 632: 629: 626: 622: 618: 614: 610: 606: 598: 594: 590: 586: 582: 581: 580: 579: 576: 573: 569: 566: 558: 554: 551: 549: 547: 538: 537: 536: 535: 531: 527: 518: 514: 510: 506: 502: 497: 496: 495: 494: 490: 489:ChristTrekker 485: 482: 479:and against, 478: 475: 472: 463: 459: 455: 454:Carl Lindberg 451: 447: 442: 441: 440: 438: 434: 430: 426: 419: 418: 414: 410: 403: 399: 395: 394:Carl Lindberg 391: 387: 382: 381: 378: 374: 370: 366: 362: 358: 354: 353: 352: 349: 345: 341: 337: 333: 325: 322: 321: 317: 314: 311: 304: 302: 301: 297: 293: 284: 274: 270: 266: 262: 258: 254: 253: 252: 251: 250: 249: 244: 240: 236: 232: 231: 230: 229: 226: 222: 218: 213: 209: 206:was still at 205: 201: 197: 196: 191: 187: 186: 182: 178: 170: 166: 162: 158: 154: 153: 152: 150: 146: 142: 138: 129:'patriot day' 126: 125: 121: 117: 113: 109: 105: 97: 91: 88: 85: 83: 80: 78: 75: 72: 68: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 4824: 4778: 4774: 4512: 4505: 4498: 4489: 4484: 4426: 4413: 4409: 4374: 4259: 4227: 4175: 4166: 4157: 4145: 4104:So are these 4087: 4015: 3972: 3968: 3964: 3925: 3873:wiki page. – 3771: 3752: 3372: 3340: 3333: 3275: 3271: 3222: 3137: 2963: 2958: 2896: 2807: 2672: 2670: 2642: 2625: 2621: 2603: 2584: 2578: 2562: 2421: 2358: 2353: 2220: 2215: 2213: 2182: 1936: 1932: 1928: 1920: 1916: 1912: 1820:current blue 1819: 1812: 1805: 1798: 1791: 1784: 1777: 1770: 1763: 1756: 1749: 1742: 1728: 1725: 1720: 1714: 1712:the change. 1710: 1700: 1691: 1682: 1671: 1667: 1663: 1656: 1652: 1648: 1641: 1637: 1633: 1623:Illuminant D 1619:Illuminant C 1600: 1596: 1593: 1586: 1565: 1564: 1556: 1527: 1526: 1524: 1419: 1375: 1372: 1368: 1365: 1362: 1358: 1355: 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2631:jacobolus 2593:jacobolus 2566:jacobolus 2536:jacobolus 2482:jacobolus 2443:jacobolus 2403:jacobolus 2364:jacobolus 2299:jacobolus 2248:jacobolus 2202:jacobolus 2186:LarryJeff 2162:jacobolus 2074:jacobolus 2014:jacobolus 1987:jacobolus 1948:jacobolus 1890:jacobolus 1732:jacobolus 1402:this edit 1378:Dziban303 1366:Regards, 1333:LarryJeff 1239:DasRakel 1177:The 2005 1170:The 1970 1114:Although 157:LarryJeff 90:Archive 7 82:Archive 5 77:Archive 4 71:Archive 3 65:Archive 2 60:Archive 1 4989:AnonMoos 4625:trolling 4613:contribs 4601:unsigned 4168:#002868 4159:#BF0A30 4091:AnonMoos 3870:ISCC–NBS 3672:contribs 3660:unsigned 3280:AnonMoos 3256:contribs 3244:unsigned 3226:AnonMoos 3121:contribs 3109:unsigned 2868:AnonMoos 2645:AnonMoos 2428:AnonMoos 2324:AnonMoos 2273:AnonMoos 2226:AnonMoos 1940:= 0.9372 1924:= 0.8776 1822:#002664 1815:#33335F 1808:#383867 1801:#3A396B 1787:#E3DED4 1780:#F5F1E6 1773:#FDF8ED 1766:#BB133E 1759:#9B1C2C 1752:#A81F30 1745:#AD2032 1702:#33335F 1693:#E3DED4 1684:#9B1C2C 1670:=0.186, 1666:=0.229, 1655:=0.327, 1651:=0.320, 1640:=0.308, 1636:=0.560, 1544:AnonMoos 1474:AnonMoos 1430:AnonMoos 1313:unsigned 1287:unsigned 1134:AnonMoos 1082:unsigned 1007:AnonMoos 920:AnonMoos 831:unsigned 729:AnonMoos 681:contribs 643:AnonMoos 631:contribs 585:Kauffner 526:VAcharon 505:AnonMoos 425:unsigned 409:AnonMoos 344:contribs 336:Sexmoron 332:unsigned 292:AnonMoos 265:AnonMoos 217:AnonMoos 137:unsigned 4414:textile 4146:legally 3973:textile 3031:process 1905:#ffffff 1837:current 671:Andrwsc 621:Andrwsc 546:BQZip01 369:Zundark 39:archive 4352:, and 4177:white 3343:= 75.3 2624:. The 2359:better 1794:white 1674:=0.040 1659:=0.753 1644:=0.082 1101:AusJeb 810:Colors 706:Cilstr 575:(talk) 568:(talk) 446:colors 200:fringe 4513:Color 4499:Scope 4410:cites 4354:three 3969:cites 3774:paper 3605:gamma 3336:= 100 2863:YCbCr 2011:: --> 1617:from 1428:etc. 1398:added 1394:added 1200:text) 792:deeds 263:. -- 16:< 5089:talk 5035:talk 5012:talk 4993:talk 4963:talk 4915:talk 4787:talk 4703:talk 4666:talk 4609:talk 4588:talk 4465:talk 4444:talk 4412:the 4382:talk 4297:talk 4287:the 4268:talk 4228:same 4193:talk 4095:talk 4025:talk 3990:talk 3982:talk 3971:the 3852:talk 3835:here 3772:JOSA 3760:talk 3668:talk 3609:sRGB 3566:talk 3496:talk 3450:talk 3373:flag 3306:talk 3284:talk 3252:talk 3230:talk 3188:talk 3148:talk 3142:. -- 3117:talk 3012:talk 2970:talk 2934:talk 2903:talk 2893:Logo 2872:talk 2845:talk 2814:talk 2785:talk 2734:talk 2713:talk 2681:talk 2673:both 2649:talk 2622:JOSA 2611:talk 2534::) – 2510:talk 2463:talk 2432:talk 2328:talk 2277:talk 2230:talk 2190:talk 2131:talk 2047:talk 1969:talk 1611:sRGB 1605:and 1548:talk 1505:talk 1478:talk 1456:talk 1434:talk 1411:talk 1382:talk 1337:talk 1321:talk 1295:talk 1265:talk 1216:talk 1138:talk 1123:talk 1105:talk 1090:talk 1056:Talk 1038:talk 1011:talk 980:Talk 951:talk 924:talk 885:ISBN 859:Talk 839:talk 758:talk 733:talk 710:talk 675:talk 647:talk 625:talk 589:talk 530:talk 509:talk 503:... 458:talk 450:here 433:talk 413:talk 398:talk 390:here 386:here 373:talk 367:. -- 340:talk 296:talk 269:talk 239:talk 221:talk 181:talk 161:talk 145:talk 120:talk 116:John 104:9/11 5060:(t) 4832:(t) 4827:. – 4740:(t) 4632:(t) 4552:(t) 4545:D65 4525:(t) 4396:(t) 4361:(t) 4350:two 4346:one 4323:(t) 4211:(t) 4062:(t) 3905:(t) 3878:(t) 3789:(t) 3727:(t) 3616:(t) 3529:(t) 3425:(t) 3405:(t) 3380:(t) 3350:(t) 3210:(t) 3163:(t) 3085:(t) 3062:(t) 3039:(t) 2985:(t) 2917:(t) 2828:(t) 2759:(t) 2696:(t) 2663:(t) 2634:(t) 2596:(t) 2569:(t) 2539:(t) 2485:(t) 2446:(t) 2406:(t) 2367:(t) 2302:(t) 2251:(t) 2205:(t) 2165:(t) 2077:(t) 2017:(t) 1990:(t) 1951:(t) 1893:(t) 1735:(t) 1621:to 1607:xyY 1053:| 977:| 943:and 856:| 572:Tom 565:Tom 392:. 5091:) 5037:) 5014:) 4995:) 4965:) 4957:-- 4917:) 4789:) 4705:) 4668:) 4615:) 4611:• 4590:) 4467:) 4446:) 4384:) 4348:, 4299:) 4270:) 4195:) 4187:-- 4097:) 4027:) 4019:-- 3992:) 3854:) 3762:) 3674:) 3670:• 3568:) 3498:) 3452:) 3444:-- 3331:) 3308:) 3286:) 3278:. 3258:) 3254:• 3232:) 3190:) 3150:) 3123:) 3119:• 3014:) 2972:) 2936:) 2905:) 2874:) 2847:) 2816:) 2787:) 2736:) 2715:) 2683:) 2651:) 2613:) 2512:) 2465:) 2434:) 2330:) 2279:) 2267:, 2232:) 2221:2) 2216:1) 2192:) 2133:) 2049:) 1971:) 1721:36 1625:65 1566:— 1550:) 1528:— 1507:) 1480:) 1458:) 1436:) 1413:) 1384:) 1339:) 1323:) 1297:) 1267:) 1218:) 1140:) 1125:) 1107:) 1092:) 1040:) 1013:) 953:) 926:) 841:) 760:) 735:) 712:) 683:) 667:}} 661:{{ 649:) 633:) 591:) 544:— 532:) 511:) 486:⇔ 460:) 452:. 435:) 415:) 400:) 375:) 363:, 359:, 346:) 342:• 298:) 271:) 241:) 223:) 204:is 183:) 163:) 147:) 122:) 86:→ 5087:( 5033:( 5010:( 4991:( 4961:( 4913:( 4785:( 4701:( 4664:( 4607:( 4586:( 4463:( 4442:( 4380:( 4295:( 4266:( 4191:( 4093:( 4023:( 3988:( 3980:( 3850:( 3837:. 3758:( 3666:( 3564:( 3494:( 3448:( 3400:– 3341:Y 3334:Y 3327:( 3304:( 3282:( 3250:( 3228:( 3186:( 3146:( 3115:( 3080:– 3057:– 3034:– 3010:( 2968:( 2932:( 2901:( 2870:( 2843:( 2812:( 2783:( 2732:( 2711:( 2691:– 2679:( 2647:( 2629:– 2609:( 2591:– 2564:– 2508:( 2461:( 2430:( 2326:( 2275:( 2246:– 2228:( 2188:( 2129:( 2045:( 1967:( 1937:n 1933:Y 1931:/ 1929:Y 1921:n 1917:Y 1915:/ 1913:Y 1888:– 1730:– 1672:Y 1668:y 1664:x 1657:Y 1653:y 1649:x 1642:Y 1638:y 1634:x 1546:( 1503:( 1476:( 1454:( 1432:( 1409:( 1380:( 1335:( 1319:( 1293:( 1263:( 1245:✍ 1214:( 1206:. 1136:( 1121:( 1103:( 1088:( 1036:( 1009:( 949:( 922:( 837:( 756:( 731:( 708:( 678:· 673:( 645:( 628:· 623:( 587:( 548:— 528:( 507:( 484:5 481:4 477:3 474:2 471:1 456:( 431:( 411:( 396:( 371:( 338:( 294:( 267:( 237:( 219:( 179:( 159:( 143:( 118:( 50:.

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