Talk:Frederick the Great

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example of Alexander the great a person's view through the history channel and his own homosexuality as the supporting belief history channel has also supported views off contributors like those of one with brittle one diseases being directly linked to Ivar the boneless for example.The Catholic Church can also be seen as a link to such broad accusations especially in the example of the Prussian and Austrian power struggle with the Habsburgs being removed as a military power shortly before the Prussians themselves commonly the church was used as a tool in such struggles as it saw itself subject to the rise in political powers and the lose of its own spiritual power with the rise of Protestantism and other philosophies like Nationalism.

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use categories may simply be looking for historic examples of LGBT people among historical figures, and Frederick the Great is definitely in this spectrum. Although academic research has not conclusively established if he was homosexual, it has almost universally been accepted that he was not explicitly heterosexual. Regardless if he was homosexual, asexual, bisexual, all of these are "LGBT" and thus are worthy of the category. The only reason I only softly support this is that its not a conclusive fact, but to call it a 'rumour' seems to disregard the overwhelming evidence that Frederick the Great was not heterosexual, and thus falls under the LGBT spectrum and should fall into the category of 18th-century German LGBT people.

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also points out that Krymanski makes some major assumptions, as he never observed Frederick. The assumption is that yet another artist, Schmidt, shared his drawings with Hogarth in Paris. If that's correct, that's problematic second-hand work much like Graff learning Frederick by copying Pesne. MacDonogh's penultimate paragraph provides an argument why it is less likely that Hogarth's image represents Frederick (Though it could be countered that Hogarth was a satirist.) Relevant to your point, MacDonogh points out that the image of Frederick (it was Graff's) that Hitler brought with him in his final days in the

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letters from Frederick himself. In these letters we have confessions on Frederick's part that he was not attracted enough to women to marry one, and that he never consummated his marriage; and that he was sharing (not without some jealousy) his lovers with his younger brother Heinrich. In a final letter we have a confession to his nephew and successor, the bigoted and limited Frederick William II, that he has had gay sex (although he downplays this experience, which was expected considering who the letter was addressed to).

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it, and that a better version could be made. There was some support for image B, which some regarded as the most widely known or having the most likeness. There was discussion on Frederick's death mask and whether any of the images showed Frederick's likeness. (Future problems can be solved by the delightfully well-informed Wftiv and Kunst-Theodor discussing the issue over Kafee and Kuchen!) In conclusion, the consensus favors retaining the current image A2,

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Börsch-Supan: "The king's indifference to his portrait ... and the difficulty of capturing his physical appearance in a picture …, have meant that there is no truly valid portrait of him. The insatiable need of contemporaries and posterity to have his portrait before their eyes was thus given free rein to deform it in any direction." See Börsch-Supan, "Friedrich der Große im zeitgenössischen Bildnis," in Oswald Hauser (ed.),

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Austria and France.” On the contrary, in the years in question, from 1742 to 1745, during the First and Second Silesian Wars, Frederick was in league with France against Austria and Great Britain. Frederick was therefore rather unpopular in England at that time. Thus it would make sense if Hogarth denigrated him in his picture.

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per Nemov. I would actually prefer the cropped version of this image which was the one present when it was promoted to featured. This is not because I personally prefer it, that is not the point; the thorough discussion at FAC establishes a strong consensus for a version of an article and there needs

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What, short of a sex tape, could a "definitive proof" of someone's sexuality be? I'd say with the evidence we have in favor of his homosexuality is already too heavy, for his heterosexuality exceedingly light; as evidence we have Frederick's own confessions, the diary of his beloved sister Wilhelmine

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I can't understand how a source from 200 years after Frederick's death can be trusted to assume he was homosexual. People are so blind that they used Frederick's nickname Luc to say that he was homosexual, just because Luc in reverse means Cul (ass in French) - So if a woman's name is Lana, does that

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I agree with your main point about idealizations and the idea that Frederick thought none of the portraits represented him. But I'm not sure the articles clearly support Krymanski, though they too consider him seriously. I couldn't access Melvyn New's review, so I couldn't judge that. But MacDonogh

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Yes, this topic has been discussed worked to get this a featured article. The current picture was chosen by consensus because it is thought Frederick sat for it and reflects how he looks at the end of the Seven Years War. reflecting his active career, as opposed to idealized portraits, some of which

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The reasoning behind using A was that, of all the portraits presented, it is the most close to life portrait that is known of Frederick the Great. Furthermore, A was painted during the most active years of his life and resembles him the most honestly in terms of genuine physical appearance. While it

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Even his court doctor, who comically tried to refute the homosexual image that Frederick already possessed at the time, is forced to acknowledge in his argument that Frederick was known for bringing his men to his room (or to his tents during military campaigns) to have sex with them; something that

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In this RfC, editors discussed which image to use in the infobox. Consensus is clearly to stay with the status quo:A2. Many participants favored retaining it, particularly as that was the image when promoted to featured. There had been previous consensus for the cropped version and several favoured

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I was very confused, when somebody here said, it is just happens to be rumours. There are love letters, reports from a diverse group of other people and even documented acts by his father to suppress homosexual tendencies of his son. I don’t if English-speaking literature is quiet backwards in its

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Generally I agree that rumours do not necessitate a category. However, in the interests of accessibility and the general accreditation of the kings sexuality falling under the LGBT spectrum. The article may be worth of inclusion in the category simply for the sake of easy filtering. As readers who

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I understand that it is too challenging for some of you to understand that it is not only people who share your sexual tastes who are able to demonstrate valor and wit on the battlefield; or that it may be difficult to appreciate historical figures unless they remind you of yourselves in a certain

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I can name at least 2 kings as well as the accusations of brownshirts leading to the night of long knifes attributed to Knowledge as false and likely a commonly used source to ignite violence like how the Romans used cannibalism to gain support against the tribes of Europe. We also see that in the

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All due respect, do not disregard other editors inputs simply because they are unpopular, Kunst-Theodor is certainly free to provide input on the death mask, and it's a valuable insight. The images presented in the RFC are not absolute either. Nonetheless, I agree with Wtfiv and yourself that its

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The heterosexualist revisionists who come here to cry and protest these facts should try to learn something about Frederick before quixotically trying to impose themselves here. It's not even true that historians only began to recognize Frederick's homosexuality recently. The biography written by

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It should further be noted that in its penultimate paragraph MacDonogh’s review is wrong when saying “that Frederick was pretty popular in Britain at the time: Prussia was fighting British battles and bringing home resounding victories; the 'Protestant' king, was trouncing the Catholic powers of

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point out that Frederick didn't sit for it. Graff only observed him at a distance. It also points out that he probably used an earlier Franke portrait. (see image). and It presents an image of Frederick in his later years. (He was 69 when the painting is done). To me, image reflects a sense of

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Several sources from Frederico's own time prove his homosexuality. I'm no great expert on Frederick's life, but I can name three myself: Voltaire, who lived under the same roof as Frederick for years (and was not Austrian); British ambassador Charles Hanbury-Williams (another non-Austrian); and

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A look at the comments suggest that before this article became featured, it was a carousel of changes: Camphausen, Graff, and Ziesenis. At the time, I was good with any choice as I was focused on getting the prose to featured article standard. As Kunst-Theodor points out, all the pictures are

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If I was choosing simply on the basis of the image's inherent qualities, I'd pick "C" as the most striking, but if the information presented here is accurate -- that Frederick probably sat for it and that it is considered to be closest to his aspect in real life -- I think I'll have to go with

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It should be noted that Frederick himself was of the opinion that he was extremely ugly, which is why he did not want to be portrayed the way he looked. All of the portraits shown above and discussed here are idealized and do not show Frederick's true appearance. Here is art historian Helmut

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However, in a special chapter of her study on portraits of Frederick that specifically addresses the "problem of similarity" in portraiture, Andrea M. Kluxen emphasizes that Baroque representational portraits of Frederick (such as those by Pesne) are pictures "without any absolute claim to

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The article never claims that Frederick was conclusively homosexual, it simply presents the extensively researched and academically accepted theory that he is very likely to be homosexual. Much of the sources that you mentioned from '200 years after Frederick's death' base their claims on

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when a post-Napoleonic Prussia was a rising European power. It's a product of a different historical context. To me, it'd be like putting a twentieth century image of Abraham Lincoln as the main image on the Lincoln page, but some people feel the image captures the essence of Frederick.

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Looking at the current infobox picture, I can't help but get the feeling it is not an image most people commonly associate with Frederick the Great. For this reason, I wanted to get editors' thoughts on which picture would be most appropriate for the article. The choices are as follows:

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is none other than Frederick the Great”, adding that “in a fine analysis of the levée scene, Mr. Krysmanski convinces us that ‘Frederick the Great appears as a flautist behind a singing Italian castrato and in front of a painting of … a homoerotic scene,’ namely Jupiter abducting

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The Anton Graff portrait (B) is a close second, however it was painted in his twilight years, and was almost certainly idealized to some degree. As expectedly, the client of a portraitist would not want to immortalize his own physical faults, and was also painted from memory.

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prior, albeit with less consensus than the current discussion. The issue that I have with the crop is that its quality is considerably lower than the full body. That said, I could probably manage to make a better quality crop and upload it if the crop is much preferred.

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Furthermore, his relationship with Algarotti explicitly contained the exchange of homoerotic poetry, with one meaningfully translated as 'The Orgasm'. Which Algarotti requested Frederick to write as a challenge due to his perception that Northern Europeans lacked

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I tend not to worry about article categories. My focus is to make sure we properly reflect the sources. As buidhe mentioned, there is no significant dispute about Frederick's sexuality, so it'd be consistent with the article to include him in the LGBT category.

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Most modern historians agree that Frederick was homosexual. Encyclopedias of homosexuality regularly list him as homosexual. It is a historical fact that Frederick’s father called the crown prince a "sodomite" and "effeminate". Famous contemporaries such as

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Interesting choice, Peleio Aquiles. This image wasn't part of the article's image merry-go-round, and to my knowledge hasn't been presented as an option for the infobox until this RfC. But it has its strengths, which I'd like to share my comments on:

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image of Frederick the Great used, it is not the only likeness used in this article. Both the Camphausen and the Graff portraits are present in the article, and I believe that would clear any confusion about who the article was referring

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If you would prefer contemporary sources, I would point strongly to the Katte affair and his liasion with Peter Carl Kristoph von Keith, which his sister Wilhelmine, in her memoirs, directly addresses the affair as more intimate than she

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I will not be voting for any of the images above. My comments are simply to point out that it doesn't really matter which image is chosen, because none of them show Frederick's true facial features. Everyone should be aware of that.

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The "Portraits" article points out this this was supposedly painted from life. But it not clear whether Frederick sat for it. It too is idealized, but the representation should be reasonable, as it was done for Frederick's sister

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The RFC didn't need to be opened in the first place. This was a stable FA until a few days ago when you pushed this topic. That discussion should have been allowed to continue before you created this needless RFC. I have restored

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An IP has been frequently attempting to remove this category from the article, on the basis that rumours are not cause for its inclusion. I would like to build consensus as to whether the category should be kept. As for my view:

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In 1769, Joseph II wrote to his mother Maria Theresa about the Prussian King he had met in Neisse: "He does not resemble any of the pictures you have seen of him ." Letter dated 29 August 1769, cited in Gustav Berthold Volz,

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I am historian and among modern German historians, it is quiet sure that Frederick II is homosexual (as sure as you can be). The denial of his homosexuality is even often criticized as an 19th century Prussian propaganda

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Oh, I forgot another source on Frederick's homosexuality: his beloved sister Wilhelmine, who documented his "improper" relationship" with one of Frederick William I's pages. My sources assure me she was not an Austrian!

3090:. The portraits presented for selection above are all idealized and do not show Frederick's true features. The Prussian king himself often said that his portraits did not resemble him, and his contemporaries, including 1872:." In a letter to his gay secretary and reader, Claude Étienne Darget, Frederick himself humorously and unequivocally stated that he preferred passive anal sex with men: "My hemorrhoids affectionately greet your cock." 761: 618: 153: 3360:. What I like about this portrait is that it represents Frederick during one of the most active times of his life. It was painted when he was around 51, in the year he successfully closed the Seven Years War with the 3227:, except that, as often, I'm against a cropped version. This (A) is how the artist portrayed den alten Fritz. A person is not just a face. People have bodies and environments in which they exist as well. So I guess I 1922:

I think its definitely time for at least some level of semi-protection, as the article is in rather good integrity with sexuality and the IP edits are (with the exception of this one) never constructive regarding it.

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Margaret Goldsmith, which is almost 100 years old, already spoke openly about this facet of Frederick. And critics at the time didn't even refute her – they just complained that she dwelt "too much" on this subject.

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I'm wondering if the constant IP edits of this article throughout the past year or two regarding Frederick's sexuality has gone on long enough that we should request a low level of semi-protection on it. Thoughts?

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Secondly, most common in my opinion should not take precedence over accuracy (within reason), as (A) is not an obscure portrait and is relatively the most true to life, it should remain as the primary image.

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I'm telling you right now, no one is going to vote in favor of the death mask (not least because it only shows Frederick as he appeared in his final decrepit years). Vote for one of the choices provided.

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banal aspect of your lives; but that is not an excuse to come here and lie about the nature of the evidence of Frederick's homosexuality and try to remove facts that are based on reliable sources.

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about Frederick's affair with their father's pages, evidence from Voltaire's private poems and even the biography he wrote on Frederick... How are these just rumors? What more do you people want?

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It's really a piece from another century, reflecting the historical image of Prussia in the 19th century. Camphausen painted this study for an equestrian painting just after participating in the

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a decisive consensus. This is especially so after an Rfc has been open for a only a few days. Until further consensus is established, the original image should remain as the infobox picture.

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Even if her book didn't exist, it would simply be impossible for current historians to come to the conclusion that Frederick was gay if there was simply no proof from the time he was alive.

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Perhaps the irony is this: regardless of whether it was a representation of Frederick, in some respects–including the nose–, it's a better representation than the official portraits.

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The evidence that Frederick was gay is simply overwhelming, while that of his heterosexuality is, well, basically nil. Why then should we privilege the latter over the former?

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Absent a compelling reason to change it, I think leaving it alone is fine. I do not see in either the discussion above, or the one here, any such compelling reason, so

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Frederick as a military man, as Graf's depiction of the black jacket with red collar became one of the models for one kind of Prussian officer's uniform. (To me, This

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Unless Frederick's sexuality is definitely proven, the category shouldn't be included. His sexuality can be discussed in the article without adding categories. --

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If it’s true that the English artist William Hogarth depicted Frederick's facial features in 1745 in a manner similar to that shown in the death mask (see

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almost certainly not suitable as the main article image, due to it both being from his twilight years and also being a relatively eccentric style choice.

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There are various other examples that lead to a conclusion that it was likely Frederick was homosexual. If you'd like to see more, I highly recommend the

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here, and was done without getting consensus. I've returned the original cropped version that was approved when Frederick became a featured article.

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is unknown if its true that its the only painting he sat down for, it has been subject to enough scrutiny to determine that it is remarkably accurate.

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mean she likes ANAL = LANA? No. If you're going to cite a source at least get something reliable and not a conspiracy theory using his nickname lol.

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In his review, Melvyn New clearly writes that Krysmanski’s monograph “makes the well-reasoned argument that the flautist in the fourth plate of

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Personally, I would prefer the death mask or the depiction by William Hogarth, because only here is Frederick shown with his aquiline nose. See

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Another image RFC on a historical biography? Why? There's no recent images to discuss. This article is stable. This is completely unnecessary.

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That said, with all due respect I think the initial concern here is moot for two key reasons. The first is that, while it may not be the most

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Aside from the fact that Frederick the Great personally sat down for the painting, what evidence do you have which corroborates that

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Everyone may have their own personal opinion on this point. However, reviewers seem to agree with this author. See, for instance,

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In 1772, he wrote to Voltaire: "You will know that … neither my portraits nor my medals are like me." Cited in Arnold Hildebrand,

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The others are unflattering. I am partial to the argument that one is considered the best likeness to him. I came here from

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I don't have strong views on this, but on balance, taking into account the information provided by others, I vote for

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The only representation that bears the greatest resemblance to Frederick's actual appearance is his death mask.

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If the dating of the image to 1745 is correct, Frederick was in his prime. he about 33 and in the midst of the

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Agree that a better cropped version could be made. The issue I see is just a slight excess of negative space.

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to be strong reasons for this to be changed. I do not see arguments here which come close to that threshold.

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court painter, he spent nearly all his time copying Pesne's paintings of Frederick to meet market demand.

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work is that his knowledge of Frederick was first hand: He was the official Brandenburg court painter for

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is a more faithful representation of Frederick's actual appearance than any of the other options listed?

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state of research, because I never thought about the homosexuality of Frederick II being questionable.

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is the place to talk about technical and editorial issues and exchange ideas. New members are welcome!

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I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, but everything in the article is supported by

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Knowledge article only mentions he was given commissions to decorate palaces in the Rococco style.

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I definitely think that either the cropped or the full body is good! That said, the full body was

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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numerous times before, it has almost become a little tradition to discuss it when time allows!

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resemblance." "One can assume that there is no true-to-life image of Frederick." See Kluxen,

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contemporary knowledge. Blanning (2016) extensively discusses this, specifically on p. 193.

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Kunst-Theodor, I'm sure you saw in Krymanski 2022, which one of the key articles of

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that Franz Dudde's circa 1900 more contemporary rendering tries to catch the nose (

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by Ekhart Berckenhagen, Pierre du Colombier, Margarete Kühn, and Georg Poensgen".

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were done long after Frederick was dead (and Frederick did not sit for Graff. See

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Though he makes a good case, Krymanski's argument that Hogarth's flute player in

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battle of soor 30 September 1745 second Silesian War. Frederick was in command.

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The battle is marked 4 June 1745 when it was fought on the 30 September 1745.

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no significant dispute in rs. There is a lot of evidence not just rumors (

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The article is stable, and there's no need to change the infobox image.

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related to the Pritzker Military Museum & Library WikiProject

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Das Bildnis Friedrichs des Großen: Zeitgenössische Darstellungen

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Which image do you feel should serve as the infobox picture for

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for some interesting insights on the origin of these portraits.

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Voltaire also states in his unauthorized biography of the king.

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Which of the following should serve as the infobox picture for

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as you have contributed to the sexuality article extensively.

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keeping Frederick in the appropriate gay and LGBT categories.

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I will preface this discussion by stating that this has been

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Top-importance biography (politics and government) articles

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on the death mask in the "Portraits" article's talk page.

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Mid-importance Pritzker Military Library-related articles

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Good point, Gog. The original image was changed in this

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Duchess Philippine Charlotte of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel

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Bild eines Königs: Friedrich der Große in der Graphik

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Facts from this article were featured on Knowledge's

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FA-Class WikiProject LGBT studies - person articles

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Failed requests for military history A-Class review

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I have 2855:Despite what some editors may prefer, 5:3 is 2427:Rfc for Frederick the Great's infobox picture 1940:Because certain IPs only act as vandals (see 174: 8: 3661:(Cologne and Vienna: Böhlau, 1987), p. 269. 3368:in the style of the earlier Pesne portraits. 271:. 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