Knowledge (XXG)

Talk:Kaja Kallas

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2578:- It is an official stance of Estonia that the country was illegally occupied from 1940-1991, and legal continuity was maintained throughout this period. Majority of western countries shared this view, by never providing de jure recognition of annexation. I am sure all kind of different examples for handling such issues can be found on wikipedia, like the earlier comment mentioning two French persons born in 1943 being treated differently, but as far as Estonian people go, the current approach has been applied pretty consistently since those infoboxes started appearing 15+ years ago, and there isn't really any need or policy requiring to change it. Furthermore, we are dealing with a BLP here, and if you take a passport of an Estonian born 1940-1991 like Kallas, then the place of birth will marked as Estonia, not Estonian SSR or whatnot. Finally, the RfC is also malformed because initiators personal opinion has been added to the original question.-- 1146: 2825:, or at the very least linking to the Estonian SSR article. This is not similar to Ukraine. That is an ongoing war with only partial occupation and practically zero recognition. Compared to an almost 50 year period with partial recognition and de facto acceptance. That article would explain the status anyway. The Bolshevik coup in the first place was illegal and was not recognized by Western governments (seems like some people think only recognition by those governments matter), but we would still put Soviet Russia as a place of birth. 1269: 1251: 2863:, Knowledge (XXG) discourages the usage of sections devoted specifically to controversies, and encourages incorporating them into other sections. There is no reason why Kallas needs an entire section of her article dedicated to one controversy, when this information should be easily migrated into the section about her premiership, which this controversy is occurring during. Additionally, please stop adding exaggerated language such as "major world media" and maintain a 218: 944: 923: 1049: 843: 429: 2720:'countries'. If one needs to understand the political realities of the time to simply understand the place of birth, that isn't very informative IMO. It has nothing to do with making a point - most of us as interested in learning the regime into which a person was born as simply the name of the place of birth. The legality of a regime's annexation seems to me to be fairly trivial compared to the de facto control of the place. 1028: 822: 853: 602: 954: 461: 738: 276: 717: 367: 343: 492: 190: 748: 1698: 1059: 312: 1177: 377: 2286:, it is nonetheless the political regime in which, and under whose laws, the person was born. If the period of occupation were brief, there might be a case for making an exception, but that isn't so here. We aren't in any way recognising legitimacy by recording political/historical facts. I could add that the poet 2256:
If the occupation of Donetsk continues, and someone is born and grows up there, I would expect their article to record that they were born in whatever common name "occupied Donetsk" acquires, which would not be plain Russia, nor plain Ukraine. I don't see how it helps to ignore the political reality
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is also the most common and most recognizable synonym for the Estonian SSR. Those docs are often interpreted to mean “use the Russian name,” with various bogus rationales given, favouring Russian and Soviet colonial bias, for no actual valid reason. Time to start using common sense and following both
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make linking to the SSR articles the sensible thing to do. Additionally, I believe the articles on the Baltic SSRs do a sufficiently good job of addressing questions about their legitimacy. In any case, I think it would be helpful to solicit comments and see if we can maybe get some kind of consensus
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So then since the seat has to be vacated isn't it misleading to still say she is an incumbent member of parliament in her infobox? Since she is just being replaced by an alternate it is not the same thing as resigning entirely I suppose, and she'd return to parliament if she steps down as PM. I'm not
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His Soviet career was quite successful: director of the republican branch of the Sberbank of the USSR, deputy chief editor of the newspaper Rahva Hyael (an organ of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Estonia and the Council of Ministers of the Estonian SSR), chairman of the Central Union
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and several sub-articles listed there, and clicked on every person I could find, and it turned out that out of all Estonians with infoboxes who were born after 1939, every single one listed Estonia as their place of birth, and not the Estonian SSR. There were zero mentions of Estonian SSR as a place
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would be “Estonian SSR” with the interlink to "Estonian SSR". Though factually correct, it refers to the administrative unit within the USSR. I do not think we need administrative details in infoboxes, and quoting “Estonian SSR” might deliver a false impression that it was sort of a state. The least
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The personal life section says that Taavi Veskimägi was a partner after Kaja Kallas was divorced from her first husband in 2006 after they married in 2002. The Knowledge (XXG) page of Taavi Veskimagi states that they were married in 2002 and were divorced in 2014. This is a contradiction of facts.
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article. In light of that, they would not list themselves as born in the Estonian SSR; they would list themselves as born in Soviet-occupied Estonia, much in the same way that I believe Knowledge (XXG) would list Ukrainians born in Mariupol in the past six months to have been born in Ukraine, not
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Historical facts are not depending on "the general style", whatever that means. This woman was born in the Soviet Union, in the Estonian SSR, denying that is denying an historical fact. "illegally occupied" is your personal opinion, the same can be claimed about any territory that changed of hands
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Well, she born in the Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic, which was part of the USSR, why does the same Putin or Zelensky indicate that they were born in the USSR (in the RSFSR and the USSR, respectively), but this is not here, independent Estonia of which at that time did not even exist, well, in
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There actually have been some RfCs on this topic and consensus is that like the rest of the wiki the place should be listed as it was at the time of their birth which is the Estonian SSR. There are some such as H2ppyme that unfortunately keep changing all the Baltic BLPs to Estonia etc despite the
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Manual of Style is always in a "draft" state - RFC's have more weight along the lines of Guidelines and those overwhelmingly wanted to reflect what history books show - the SSR's existed, and that is a fact - national pride has no place here, only scholarship. Otherwise, Wiki will continue to be
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of birth. Even going back through several years of edits, the only thing I found was an edit from last month that changed it to Estonian SSR on only one article that was quickly reverted. It would appear that it is not current practice on Knowledge (XXG) to use Estonian SSR as a place of birth.
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Wilde links to the island, rather than the country. What I'm saying that linking to something which had a different meaning at the time of someone's birth is not very informative. Wilde was born on an island which was part of the British state at the time of his birth, but that island is now two
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There seem to be several unregistered users on a crusade to change her place of birth to "Estonian SSR", which would go against the general style on Knowledge (XXG) for people born in Estonia during that period as Estonia was illegally occupied and the Soviet rule her was legally null and void.
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The questions are whether the annexation of the Republic of Estonia by the USSR was legal; if not, where did Tallinn fall under during that time? I do not see a clear answer to BOTH questions. Some changes from that time, such as border and demographics, are accepted. Other changes are not. In
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as a birth in Russia, births in the Baltic states between the 1940s and 1990s were births in independent Baltic nations occupied by the Soviet Union. It has been longstanding practice on English Knowledge (XXG) to not enforce Soviet birth places on Baltic-born individuals during the Soviet era
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Yes, as mentioned there was a group of editors who went through and changed it on most biographies a few years back which kicked off some RfCs which sided on using the Estonian SSR. But any time anyone has tried to implement the results of the RfC the same group of editors generally revert the
2595:- For all the reasons mentioned previously, i.e. Estonia became a sovereign state in 1918 and continued to exist to this present day, long been the accepted style for over 15 years in Baltic state related BLPs, the subject has no connection with the communist regime, etc. Editors often cite 1924:
Russia. I also believe in deferring to how a country or people refer to themselves, rather than forcing them to conform to our standards. Therefore, I would leave it as it is. However, I would also suggest that this is not the appropriate talk page for this discussion; it should be at
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I am sorry, but it is a hard fact of international law that the Soviet rule in Estonia was legally null and void, which is why all people born in Estonia during the Soviet occupation should just have "Estonia" in their infobox. Do not push your pro-Kremlin POV on Knowledge (XXG)!
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You are misinterpreting the situation. Estonia was founded in 1918, you are citing examples of people born before their nations were founded. The Estonian SSR is the Soviet occupation of the independent Republic of Estonia, not the same situation. A comparison would be the
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Each of those people you listed were born before their countries existed. Washington born 1732 before US independence in 1776; Mannerheim 1867, Finland 1917; Gandhi 1869, India 1947; Pats 1874, Estonia 1918. But Kallas was born in 1977, after Estonian independence in 1918.
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If a Palestinian were born in occupied territory, I would expect WP to record that. If a Jewish person were born in the pre-1948 Palestinian mandate territory, the same, regardless of whether either recognised the regime under which they were born. Ditto someone born in
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is “Estonia” with the interlink to Estonian SSR. It is somewhat confusing, as "Estonia" does not equal "Estonian SSR", yet one might say that it points to a specific phase in the history of Estonia, the phase relevant for the period when Mrs Kallas was born. As
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because of how contentious this is. This is not a matter of "Estonians don't acknowledge the Estonian SSR," it is a matter of what actually happened and what the Soviet Baltic republics were – occupied independent countries. Hyperlinking (ie, Birth Place:
2391:– since this is becoming a thing now, adding my comments. As other people have mentioned, the history of the Baltics and the Soviet Union is not the same as for other Soviet republics. They were illegally annexed and taken over, and this annexation was 1604:, Kallas is no longer listed as a member of parliament. She was certainly listed prior to becoming PM, so does anyone with advanced knowledge of Estonian politics know whether the PM has to leave their seat when being appointed to the office of PM? 2488:
That's an argument for nationality but not for birthplace, though - her career should have no bearing on the latter. An Israeli who was born in, say, Soviet Belarus, and made aliyah as a kid would be both Israeli *and* born in Soviet Belarus.
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the Soviet period, she was part of the Soviet nomenklatura, his father Siim Kallas, graduated with honors from Tartu State University with a degree in finance and credit, and noted his success in 1972 by joining the ranks of the CPSU.
2278:. I was going to cite many of the same people as CJ-Moki. The political regime in which someone was born is part of their basic biog information, even if they and their compatriots saw their own identity as being a more 'national' 2319:. I have not found any WP guidelines for states in infoboxes, but judging by what appears in the “featured articles” category, in case of biographies they almost always indicate the city and the state as it was at the time. Then, 1867:
At least as far as I've noticed, when including a place of birth in an article's infobox, it's the general practice on Knowledge (XXG) to use historical place names. Sometimes the modern-day country is included, as with
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Can someone remove the last two sentences in the personal life section? The first one is unsourced and the other is sourced to Google Translate which doesn't make sense as Google Translate is just a translation tool.
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My understanding is that the Baltic countries have a rather unique view on the Soviet era; they view their country as illegally occupied from 1940-1991, and you can even see evidence of that in the
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Recognition by the “Western world” is not a requirement to be part of a country or not, to exist or not as a country, the “Western world” is not the judge or the highest authority in the world.
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I would go for “Estonia” with no interlink, also an evasive option but worse, since we introduce a term but we do not explain it, and it might get confused with the Republic of Estonia. Then my
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I would refrain from other info than “Tallinn”. It is a somewhat evasive option, so that we do not have to tackle the issue up front, and this is why I see it as the fourth preferred one. As
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who are the presidents of Latvia and Lithuania respectively) use the term "Soviet-occupied Latvia" and "Soviet-occupied Lithuania", could and should this be done with figures from Estonia?
438: 353: 2474:: it's within editorial discretion to pick one or the other. In this case, the subject was 14 when Estonia regained independence and none of her career took place during the USSR era. -- 2068:, I don't see a source or even conjecture that the Soviet occupation is seen as illegal, and I think it's consensus around the world that they were valid and accepted parts of the USSR.-- 1167: 673: 256: 2937: 2612: 2373:
majority of the international community did not recognize the Estonian SSR, and instead recognized the continuity of the independent Baltic nations throughout Soviet occupation
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of Trade Unions of Estonia, people's deputy of the USSR. Well, in the USSR there were no separate wagons for livestock, there were common wagons for both livestock and people
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I don't claim to have advanced knowledge, but I read on ERR News that Estonian ministers are required to vacate their seats in the Riigikogu and are replaced by an alternate.
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who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy.
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did not recognize the Soviet government when it was formed, so can we not say someone was born in Soviet Russia or the USSR during those first few years?
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is not imposing any national identity on them, it's simply recording historical facts. Facts which may or may not impact on who they later become.
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by clinging to something from some Cold-War-era Russian history book and start respecting Knowledge (XXG)’s guidelines and readers.
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but the example given in the docs applies to a city not a country, and they ignore the part that's actually related to country:
2327:”; I like it less, because after all Estonian SSR does not equal the USSR, though on the other hand, it is more informative. My 1925: 1884:(and possibly other states) do not adhere to this practice. It appears that, due to Estonia having been on the receiving end of 517: 508: 466: 74: 1537: 1090: 1072: 1033: 666: 627: 614: 323: 1198:
and related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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set of three words - each of which has a markedly different meaning in standard English and in common Russian usage.)
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Users well explained it beforehand, illegal annexation with limited recognition and person played no role in the SSR.
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Personally, I think the de facto recognition of the Soviet administration by most paired with other factors like the
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was born in Estonia. Regardless of whether it was run by republicans or communists, it was and still is Estonia. --
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being featured on the main page, it came to my attention that many articles for people born in what's now
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Just to double check, I've noticed that the prime ministers and presidents pages of other Baltic states (
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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general, we should try to describe controversies. The infobox is not the best place to settle them.
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Rate each tagged article by quality and importance to the WikiProject if it has not been done. (See
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after WWII. By allowing such politically motivated denials, Knowledge (XXG) loses credibility.
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IP being blocked for 72 hours. If the vandalism begins again I will file another request.
959: 2867:. I am moving the controversy back into the section about her premiership, please do not 2424:" is misleading and not how we would be handling modern-day instances of the same thing. 1449:
changes despite the result of the RfC, usually with comments like the IP editors above. -
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I don't see a source or even conjecture that the Soviet occupation is seen as illegal
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one. Even if the Soviet occupation were illegal, or never recognised by the locals,
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Estonia was and is Estonia. So why is it so frickin’ hard to just call it that?  —
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sure what the protocol is on this when it comes to incumbency in the legislature.
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seen as a conglomeration of rednecks by professional historians in these areas.
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as someone's place of birth often reflect the politics of the editors involved.
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This photo is being used on the home page today - but it's not in the article
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is an ambivalent and less known abbreviation which stands for a confusing
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For modern subjects, the country should generally be a sovereign state
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Should we perhaps limit editing this page only for registered users?
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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
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A news item involving Kaja Kallas was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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Please stop undoing edits related to this controversy section. Per
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Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Baltic states-related articles
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That doesn't change the fact of what it was called at the time. -
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of the 'occupation'. Article text can 'flesh out' these issues.
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Option E is my preferred choice as linking countries violates
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Ural altaic laguages Kaja or Kaya or Kai words mean "stone" .
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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I went ahead and repaired the second citation as requested.
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Leader of the Communist Party since 2018?? Is that a troll
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Low-importance biography (politics and government) articles
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as born in "occupied France." Can we say Estonia (as SSR)?
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Your argument does not follow. If you look at the article
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WikiProject Russia articles with no associated task force
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Category:Knowledge (XXG) requested photographs in Estonia
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I filed a request for page protection which led to the
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Upload and/or add a photo to articles without it (See
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For that reason, this article is at increased risk of
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and discuss here rather than continuously reverting.
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There is an entire Knowledge (XXG) article about this
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the letter and spirit of the guidelines (and cf. the
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https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:RE_Kaja_Kallas.jpg
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B-Class biography (politics and government) articles
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Boards, like AN, ANI etc. 874:and the subjects encompassed by it. 782:Template:WikiProject European Union 530:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Estonia 512:, a project to maintain and expand 328:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 3053:B-Class WikiProject Women articles 1901:monopoly on the legal use of force 1844:What is the meaning of Kaja name? 1103:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Russia 14: 2693:. Ignoring this is tantamount to 2323:is “USSR” with the interlink to “ 1294:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Women 50:New to Knowledge (XXG)? Welcome! 3033:B-Class Women's History articles 2998:Low-importance politics articles 2953:High-importance Estonia articles 1696: 1600:If you go on the website of the 1267: 1249: 1175: 1165: 1144: 1057: 1047: 1026: 952: 942: 921: 851: 841: 820: 746: 736: 715: 600: 490: 480: 459: 375: 365: 341: 310: 274: 234:This article must adhere to the 188: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 2963:B-Class European Union articles 2030:. 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Set the 1689:Semi-Protected Edit Request 1520:00:46, 4 October 2022 (UTC) 1482:22:31, 1 January 2023 (UTC) 1191:WikiProject Women's History 1106:Template:WikiProject Russia 249:must be removed immediately 3074: 3058:WikiProject Women articles 2923:B-Class biography articles 2835:07:27, 26 April 2023 (UTC) 2815:11:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC) 2792:03:10, 17 April 2023 (UTC) 2771:22:26, 14 April 2023 (UTC) 2730:17:58, 25 March 2023 (UTC) 2715:04:23, 19 March 2023 (UTC) 2673:10:20, 18 March 2023 (UTC) 2636:09:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC) 2588:22:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC) 2571:07:55, 13 March 2023 (UTC) 2554:00:14, 12 March 2023 (UTC) 2534:23:16, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2521:Reichskommissariat Ukraine 2499:11:06, 25 April 2023 (UTC) 2484:18:15, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2449:18:55, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2431:17:21, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2382:17:31, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2363:14:47, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2311:with the interlink to the 2304:07:16, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2267:10:04, 12 March 2023 (UTC) 2252:17:28, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2220:06:52, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2205:06:39, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2150:07:42, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2127:20:37, 10 March 2023 (UTC) 2108:17:32, 11 March 2023 (UTC) 2095:20:35, 10 March 2023 (UTC) 2078:20:33, 10 March 2023 (UTC) 1300:WikiProject Women articles 1297:Template:WikiProject Women 1234:project's importance scale 1129:project's importance scale 1011:project's importance scale 906:project's importance scale 805:project's importance scale 762:WikiProject European Union 691:and check for start-class. 556:project's importance scale 2993:B-Class politics articles 2620:Commonwealth of Australia 2463:12:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC) 2231:Donetsk People's Republic 2061:23:26, 8 March 2023 (UTC) 2015:10:19, 8 March 2023 (UTC) 1996:00:21, 8 March 2023 (UTC) 1970:18:28, 8 March 2023 (UTC) 1955:00:14, 8 March 2023 (UTC) 1938:23:57, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 1914:23:00, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 1777:06:21, 7 March 2023 (UTC) 1497:12:03, 13 July 2024 (UTC) 1262: 1227: 1160: 1122: 1080:dedicated to coverage of 1042: 1004: 937: 899: 836: 798: 731: 562: 549: 475: 435: 360: 336: 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 2988:WikiProject Law articles 2948:B-Class Estonia articles 2280:(or otherwise different) 1982:as born in "France" and 1839:18:45, 24 May 2022 (UTC) 1214:Women's History articles 883:Template:WikiProject Law 3008:B-Class Russia articles 2747:Soviet-occupied Estonia 2699:template:infobox person 2687:template:infobox person 2597:template:infobox person 2518:as having been born in 2024:template:infobox person 1806:Thanks, I've fixed it. 1791:'s name is misspelled. 1666:"Members of Parliament" 1093:, or contribute to the 785:European Union articles 354:Politics and Government 2173:Grand Duchy of Finland 2005:- per NorthernFalcon 432: 318:This article is rated 222: 75:avoid personal attacks 2865:neutral point of view 1534:Tondelleo Schwarzkopf 1355:result of the Rfcs. - 754:European Union portal 431: 391:WikiProject Biography 322:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 282:This page is about a 220: 100:Neutral point of view 2978:B-Class law articles 2689:, which also states 2516:Vitaliy Khmelnytskyi 1084:on Knowledge (XXG). 968:WikiProject Politics 105:No original research 2841:Controversy section 2189:Livonia Governorate 1886:Russian imperialism 509:WikiProject Estonia 292:editing, talk-page 2918:Active politicians 2685:does the same per 1944:As can be seen in 1095:project discussion 1073:WikiProject Russia 433: 418:biography articles 324:content assessment 223: 86:dispute resolution 47: 2655:than it does now 2161:George Washington 1980:Jean-Claude Killy 1870:Mikhail Gorbachev 1779: 1763:comment added by 1723: 1722: 1592: 1580:comment added by 1316: 1315: 1312: 1311: 1308: 1307: 1277:WikiProject Women 1244: 1243: 1240: 1239: 1139: 1138: 1135: 1134: 1021: 1020: 1017: 1016: 991:politics articles 916: 915: 912: 911: 815: 814: 811: 810: 710: 709: 706: 705: 702: 701: 698: 697: 454: 453: 450: 449: 304: 303: 269: 268: 227: 226: 183: 182: 66:Assume good faith 43: 3065: 2858: 2851: 2695:WP:CHERRYPICKing 2618:was born in the 2512:Helena Majdaniec 2292:Northern Ireland 2043:). 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