2578:- It is an official stance of Estonia that the country was illegally occupied from 1940-1991, and legal continuity was maintained throughout this period. Majority of western countries shared this view, by never providing de jure recognition of annexation. I am sure all kind of different examples for handling such issues can be found on wikipedia, like the earlier comment mentioning two French persons born in 1943 being treated differently, but as far as Estonian people go, the current approach has been applied pretty consistently since those infoboxes started appearing 15+ years ago, and there isn't really any need or policy requiring to change it. Furthermore, we are dealing with a BLP here, and if you take a passport of an Estonian born 1940-1991 like Kallas, then the place of birth will marked as Estonia, not Estonian SSR or whatnot. Finally, the RfC is also malformed because initiators personal opinion has been added to the original question.--
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2825:, or at the very least linking to the Estonian SSR article. This is not similar to Ukraine. That is an ongoing war with only partial occupation and practically zero recognition. Compared to an almost 50 year period with partial recognition and de facto acceptance. That article would explain the status anyway. The Bolshevik coup in the first place was illegal and was not recognized by Western governments (seems like some people think only recognition by those governments matter), but we would still put Soviet Russia as a place of birth.
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2863:, Knowledge (XXG) discourages the usage of sections devoted specifically to controversies, and encourages incorporating them into other sections. There is no reason why Kallas needs an entire section of her article dedicated to one controversy, when this information should be easily migrated into the section about her premiership, which this controversy is occurring during. Additionally, please stop adding exaggerated language such as "major world media" and maintain a
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If the occupation of
Donetsk continues, and someone is born and grows up there, I would expect their article to record that they were born in whatever common name "occupied Donetsk" acquires, which would not be plain Russia, nor plain Ukraine. I don't see how it helps to ignore the political reality
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is also the most common and most recognizable synonym for the
Estonian SSR. Those docs are often interpreted to mean “use the Russian name,” with various bogus rationales given, favouring Russian and Soviet colonial bias, for no actual valid reason. Time to start using common sense and following both
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make linking to the SSR articles the sensible thing to do. Additionally, I believe the articles on the Baltic SSRs do a sufficiently good job of addressing questions about their legitimacy. In any case, I think it would be helpful to solicit comments and see if we can maybe get some kind of consensus
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So then since the seat has to be vacated isn't it misleading to still say she is an incumbent member of parliament in her infobox? Since she is just being replaced by an alternate it is not the same thing as resigning entirely I suppose, and she'd return to parliament if she steps down as PM. I'm not
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His Soviet career was quite successful: director of the republican branch of the
Sberbank of the USSR, deputy chief editor of the newspaper Rahva Hyael (an organ of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Estonia and the Council of Ministers of the Estonian SSR), chairman of the Central Union
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and several sub-articles listed there, and clicked on every person I could find, and it turned out that out of all
Estonians with infoboxes who were born after 1939, every single one listed Estonia as their place of birth, and not the Estonian SSR. There were zero mentions of Estonian SSR as a place
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would be “Estonian SSR” with the interlink to "Estonian SSR". Though factually correct, it refers to the administrative unit within the USSR. I do not think we need administrative details in infoboxes, and quoting “Estonian SSR” might deliver a false impression that it was sort of a state. The least
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The personal life section says that Taavi Veskimägi was a partner after Kaja Kallas was divorced from her first husband in 2006 after they married in 2002. The
Knowledge (XXG) page of Taavi Veskimagi states that they were married in 2002 and were divorced in 2014. This is a contradiction of facts.
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article. In light of that, they would not list themselves as born in the
Estonian SSR; they would list themselves as born in Soviet-occupied Estonia, much in the same way that I believe Knowledge (XXG) would list Ukrainians born in Mariupol in the past six months to have been born in Ukraine, not
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Historical facts are not depending on "the general style", whatever that means. This woman was born in the Soviet Union, in the
Estonian SSR, denying that is denying an historical fact. "illegally occupied" is your personal opinion, the same can be claimed about any territory that changed of hands
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Well, she born in the
Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic, which was part of the USSR, why does the same Putin or Zelensky indicate that they were born in the USSR (in the RSFSR and the USSR, respectively), but this is not here, independent Estonia of which at that time did not even exist, well, in
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There actually have been some RfCs on this topic and consensus is that like the rest of the wiki the place should be listed as it was at the time of their birth which is the
Estonian SSR. There are some such as H2ppyme that unfortunately keep changing all the Baltic BLPs to Estonia etc despite the
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Manual of Style is always in a "draft" state - RFC's have more weight along the lines of
Guidelines and those overwhelmingly wanted to reflect what history books show - the SSR's existed, and that is a fact - national pride has no place here, only scholarship. Otherwise, Wiki will continue to be
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of birth. Even going back through several years of edits, the only thing I found was an edit from last month that changed it to Estonian SSR on only one article that was quickly reverted. It would appear that it is not current practice on Knowledge (XXG) to use Estonian SSR as a place of birth.
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Wilde links to the island, rather than the country. What I'm saying that linking to something which had a different meaning at the time of someone's birth is not very informative. Wilde was born on an island which was part of the British state at the time of his birth, but that island is now two
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There seem to be several unregistered users on a crusade to change her place of birth to "Estonian SSR", which would go against the general style on Knowledge (XXG) for people born in Estonia during that period as Estonia was illegally occupied and the Soviet rule her was legally null and void.
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The questions are whether the annexation of the Republic of Estonia by the USSR was legal; if not, where did Tallinn fall under during that time? I do not see a clear answer to BOTH questions. Some changes from that time, such as border and demographics, are accepted. Other changes are not. In
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as a birth in Russia, births in the Baltic states between the 1940s and 1990s were births in independent Baltic nations occupied by the Soviet Union. It has been longstanding practice on English Knowledge (XXG) to not enforce Soviet birth places on Baltic-born individuals during the Soviet era
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Yes, as mentioned there was a group of editors who went through and changed it on most biographies a few years back which kicked off some RfCs which sided on using the Estonian SSR. But any time anyone has tried to implement the results of the RfC the same group of editors generally revert the
2595:- For all the reasons mentioned previously, i.e. Estonia became a sovereign state in 1918 and continued to exist to this present day, long been the accepted style for over 15 years in Baltic state related BLPs, the subject has no connection with the communist regime, etc. Editors often cite
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Russia. I also believe in deferring to how a country or people refer to themselves, rather than forcing them to conform to our standards. Therefore, I would leave it as it is. However, I would also suggest that this is not the appropriate talk page for this discussion; it should be at
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I am sorry, but it is a hard fact of international law that the Soviet rule in Estonia was legally null and void, which is why all people born in Estonia during the Soviet occupation should just have "Estonia" in their infobox. Do not push your pro-Kremlin POV on Knowledge (XXG)!
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You are misinterpreting the situation. Estonia was founded in 1918, you are citing examples of people born before their nations were founded. The Estonian SSR is the Soviet occupation of the independent Republic of Estonia, not the same situation. A comparison would be the
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Each of those people you listed were born before their countries existed. Washington born 1732 before US independence in 1776; Mannerheim 1867, Finland 1917; Gandhi 1869, India 1947; Pats 1874, Estonia 1918. But Kallas was born in 1977, after Estonian independence in 1918.
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If a Palestinian were born in occupied territory, I would expect WP to record that. If a Jewish person were born in the pre-1948 Palestinian mandate territory, the same, regardless of whether either recognised the regime under which they were born. Ditto someone born in
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is “Estonia” with the interlink to Estonian SSR. It is somewhat confusing, as "Estonia" does not equal "Estonian SSR", yet one might say that it points to a specific phase in the history of Estonia, the phase relevant for the period when Mrs Kallas was born. As
1948:, the consensus on this has been established as there being no consensus to list Baltic births as being Soviet-born, so the Baltic states form an exception where births in Baltic Soviet republics have historically not been recorded as such on Knowledge (XXG).
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because of how contentious this is. This is not a matter of "Estonians don't acknowledge the Estonian SSR," it is a matter of what actually happened and what the Soviet Baltic republics were – occupied independent countries. Hyperlinking (ie, Birth Place:
2391:– since this is becoming a thing now, adding my comments. As other people have mentioned, the history of the Baltics and the Soviet Union is not the same as for other Soviet republics. They were illegally annexed and taken over, and this annexation was
1604:, Kallas is no longer listed as a member of parliament. She was certainly listed prior to becoming PM, so does anyone with advanced knowledge of Estonian politics know whether the PM has to leave their seat when being appointed to the office of PM?
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That's an argument for nationality but not for birthplace, though - her career should have no bearing on the latter. An Israeli who was born in, say, Soviet Belarus, and made aliyah as a kid would be both Israeli *and* born in Soviet Belarus.
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the Soviet period, she was part of the Soviet nomenklatura, his father Siim Kallas, graduated with honors from Tartu State University with a degree in finance and credit, and noted his success in 1972 by joining the ranks of the CPSU.
2278:. I was going to cite many of the same people as CJ-Moki. The political regime in which someone was born is part of their basic biog information, even if they and their compatriots saw their own identity as being a more 'national'
2319:. I have not found any WP guidelines for states in infoboxes, but judging by what appears in the “featured articles” category, in case of biographies they almost always indicate the city and the state as it was at the time. Then,
1867:
At least as far as I've noticed, when including a place of birth in an article's infobox, it's the general practice on Knowledge (XXG) to use historical place names. Sometimes the modern-day country is included, as with
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Can someone remove the last two sentences in the personal life section? The first one is unsourced and the other is sourced to Google Translate which doesn't make sense as Google Translate is just a translation tool.
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My understanding is that the Baltic countries have a rather unique view on the Soviet era; they view their country as illegally occupied from 1940-1991, and you can even see evidence of that in the
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Recognition by the “Western world” is not a requirement to be part of a country or not, to exist or not as a country, the “Western world” is not the judge or the highest authority in the world.
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I would go for “Estonia” with no interlink, also an evasive option but worse, since we introduce a term but we do not explain it, and it might get confused with the Republic of Estonia. Then my
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I would refrain from other info than “Tallinn”. It is a somewhat evasive option, so that we do not have to tackle the issue up front, and this is why I see it as the fourth preferred one. As
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who are the presidents of Latvia and Lithuania respectively) use the term "Soviet-occupied Latvia" and "Soviet-occupied Lithuania", could and should this be done with figures from Estonia?
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2474:: it's within editorial discretion to pick one or the other. In this case, the subject was 14 when Estonia regained independence and none of her career took place during the USSR era. --
2068:, I don't see a source or even conjecture that the Soviet occupation is seen as illegal, and I think it's consensus around the world that they were valid and accepted parts of the USSR.--
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majority of the international community did not recognize the Estonian SSR, and instead recognized the continuity of the independent Baltic nations throughout Soviet occupation
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of Trade Unions of Estonia, people's deputy of the USSR. Well, in the USSR there were no separate wagons for livestock, there were common wagons for both livestock and people
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I don't claim to have advanced knowledge, but I read on ERR News that Estonian ministers are required to vacate their seats in the Riigikogu and are replaced by an alternate.
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who is running for office or has recently run for office, is in office and campaigning for re-election, or is involved in some current political conflict or controversy.
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did not recognize the Soviet government when it was formed, so can we not say someone was born in Soviet Russia or the USSR during those first few years?
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is not imposing any national identity on them, it's simply recording historical facts. Facts which may or may not impact on who they later become.
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by clinging to something from some Cold-War-era Russian history book and start respecting Knowledge (XXG)’s guidelines and readers.
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but the example given in the docs applies to a city not a country, and they ignore the part that's actually related to country:
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set of three words - each of which has a markedly different meaning in standard English and in common Russian usage.)
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Users well explained it beforehand, illegal annexation with limited recognition and person played no role in the SSR.
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Personally, I think the de facto recognition of the Soviet administration by most paired with other factors like the
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was born in Estonia. Regardless of whether it was run by republicans or communists, it was and still is Estonia. --
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being featured on the main page, it came to my attention that many articles for people born in what's now
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Just to double check, I've noticed that the prime ministers and presidents pages of other Baltic states (
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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general, we should try to describe controversies. The infobox is not the best place to settle them.
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IP being blocked for 72 hours. If the vandalism begins again I will file another request.
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Estonia was and is Estonia. So why is it so frickin’ hard to just call it that? —
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sure what the protocol is on this when it comes to incumbency in the legislature.
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seen as a conglomeration of rednecks by professional historians in these areas.
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as someone's place of birth often reflect the politics of the editors involved.
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This photo is being used on the home page today - but it's not in the article
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is an ambivalent and less known abbreviation which stands for a confusing
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For modern subjects, the country should generally be a sovereign state
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Should we perhaps limit editing this page only for registered users?
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Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
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A news item involving Kaja Kallas was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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That doesn't change the fact of what it was called at the time. -
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of the 'occupation'. Article text can 'flesh out' these issues.
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Option E is my preferred choice as linking countries violates
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Ural altaic laguages Kaja or Kaya or Kai words mean "stone" .
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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I went ahead and repaired the second citation as requested.
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Leader of the Communist Party since 2018?? Is that a troll
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as born in "occupied France." Can we say Estonia (as SSR)?
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Your argument does not follow. If you look at the article
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WikiProject Russia articles with no associated task force
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and discuss here rather than continuously reverting.
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There is an entire Knowledge (XXG) article about this
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the letter and spirit of the guidelines (and cf. the
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https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:RE_Kaja_Kallas.jpg
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2683:Kaja Kallas
2679:Oscar Wilde
2645:Oscar Wilde
2624:Kaja Kallas
2476:K.e.coffman
2369:WP:OVERLINK
2284:(Estonians)
2066:Estonia SSR
2041:WP:CRITERIA
1906:Rockhead126
1878:Kaja Kallas
1825:Kaja Kallas
1078:WikiProject
872:legal field
567:To-do list:
506:is part of
504:Kaja Kallas
207:section on
203:In the news
148:free images
31:not a forum
25:Kaja Kallas
2902:Categories
2599:, quoting
2580:Staberinde
2546:Senorangel
2401:Simferopol
2345:preferred
2159:. We list
1988:Senorangel
1874:Mila Kunis
1765:Rmorrisons
1709:|answered=
1675:2 February
1653:References
1413:re-writing
859:Law portal
522:discussion
284:politician
2759:Orwellian
2697:parts of
2563:Pelmeen10
1670:Riigikogu
1602:Riigikogu
1431:Riigikogu
409:Biography
349:Biography
298:vandalism
253:libellous
197:Main Page
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2869:edit war
2821:I think
2807:Ostalgia
2722:Pincrete
2703:WP:POINT
2665:Pincrete
2510:We list
2508:Comment:
2491:Ostalgia
2455:Ostirnim
2347:option G
2342:option F
2338:option E
2334:option D
2329:option C
2321:option B
2317:option A
2296:Pincrete
2259:Pincrete
2212:Levivich
2193:de facto
2142:Pincrete
2119:Levivich
2087:Levivich
2070:Ortizesp
1811:Tammbeck
1773:contribs
1761:unsigned
1625:Tammbeck
1578:unsigned
1512:SpyroeBM
1489:Ostirnim
982:Politics
973:politics
929:Politics
654:Maintain
294:trolling
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2784:GoodDay
2743:Estonia
2661:Estonia
2649:Ireland
2593:Estonia
2576:Estonia
2559:Estonia
2541:Tallinn
2526:CJ-Moki
2472:Estonia
2414:Tallinn
2410:Estonia
2406:Tallinn
2397:Donetsk
2389:Estonia
2351:Estonia
2243:Ukraine
2239:Donetsk
2227:Donetsk
2197:CJ-Moki
2115:Estonia
2053:Michael
2036:Estonia
2032:Estonia
2020:Estonia
2007:BogLogs
2003:Estonia
1921:Estonia
1882:Estonia
1876:. With
1554:NMajdan
1451:DJSasso
1417:GoodDay
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1386:DJSasso
1357:DJSasso
1326:H2ppyme
1232:on the
1127:on the
1009:on the
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803:on the
643:Infobox
581:history
554:on the
527:Estonia
514:Estonia
467:Estonia
320:B-class
199:in the
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2763:3 Löwi
2355:Hh1718
2235:Russia
2183:, and
2045:WP:RGW
1904:here.
1474:Цйфыву
1100:Russia
1082:Russia
1034:Russia
628:Assess
326:scale.
290:biased
126:Google
2848:Rnd90
2827:Mellk
2441:Mellk
2085:Wow.
1713:|ans=
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682:Stubs
667:Photo
591:purge
586:watch
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2890:talk
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2780:USSR
2767:talk
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576:edit
546:High
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