Talk:H. P. Lovecraft/Archive 2

1411:: Lovecraftian pioneer extraordinaire. For example, on the Lovecraft page S.T. Joshi is listed 22 times and is called a “prominent scholar.” I don't want to just flame this guy or change the page just yet, but I would like to raise a voice of concern about Joshi being called a "scholar” of Lovecraft—which is dubious at best. Here’s my thesis: by still claiming (and including in the article) that Joshi is the foremost scholar of Lovecraft, or whatever it is he is referred to these as these days, it does a disservice to current Lovecraft research which has moved far beyond Joshi and his book-review style criticism. In a nutshell, I would argue that this article about Lovecraft would be more accurate if the word “scholar” is removed from before Joshi’s name. I know it’s just semantics but here’s my logic. 1893:

proposed section under 'antiquarianism'. A section detailing scientific pursuits would perhaps be less essential (but certainly not entirely inappropriate), since much of his experiments in chemistry and astronomy were conducted in his adolecent years and didn't amount to a great deal except for astronomy columns in local newspapers. However a mention that his so called 'cosmic pessimism' stemmed from his astronomical studies would be a very welcome addition to the article. I still think that the racism section is far too long, and may present a deeply unfavorable picture of Lovecraft to somebody new to him; it detracts from the fact he was (despite some dubious views on society) a genuinely decent man. Eam91 3rd Semtember 2007, 18:30 (GMT).

1577:

bad; I just read through a bibliography of English translations of Dante, which, just like the one of Beowulf before it, took the time to criticize quite a few translations as worthless. The Poems of Philip Freneau, edited by Fred Lewis Pattee of Pennsylvania State College, gives a list of poems not included in this edition at the end and dismisses them as without poetic or historical interest. Many scholars spend a great deal of time establishing which text best reflects the intent of the author; that's what a critical edition is. Even if he doesn't follow the trends of current academia, that does not discredit him as a scholar.

2073:

individual who actively worships Cthulhu (note spelling), I have heard that some (uninformed) people believe H.P.L. derived the idea of his mythos from some obscure sect. I am not aware if there is any documentary evidence to support this claim, but suspect there isn't. These are usually conjectures made by people who know very little of Lovecraft's fiction. Cthulhu is a figment of Lovecraft's imagination; a fictional deity which partly convays his bleak philosophical outlook. By the way, Lovecraft had envisioned Cthulhu long before the '30s, the actual story 'The Call of Cthulhu' was penned in 1926. Eam91 17/12/07.

1090:

etc. In the visions of post-nuclear holocaust, we imagine that if chaos advances, it would deprive us of our technological gains. We also imagine that a crazed mind would be unable to maintain any level of creativity, that it would burn out, or be defeated by ultimately superior technology of a "good" society, or somehow be destroyed by its own creations. Lovecraft, on the other hand, conjures up images of a future of tall buildings pointed toward the sky in crazy angles, with priests performing profane rituals. So society advances in some technological way yet is ruled by madness at the same time.

1525:

routinely judges stories or authors as “inferior” and spends great amounts of energy informing his reader which text is “best.” Last time I presented at an academic conference these are all strictly verboten and get you, at best, utterly shunned as a hack. Now I don’t want to try and undermine Joshi’s work—what he has done for Lovecraft, the genre, and it’s criticism is highly commendable—but I think enough dissertations have been written about Lovecraft that we need to, at the very least, reevaluate this new god of the Weird Tale. What does this mean? Well let’s look at is this way:

1983:

publisher of games based on Lovecraft's Mythos." First of all; Arkham Horror is at its second edition, the first edition was published in 1987 and the second in 2005. Currently there IS a steady stream of expansions but where was a 18 year hiatus. Second: While Chaosium was the first company to publish a Lovecraft inspired RPG they had been active publishers for some time. Lovecraft and his connection to the gaming world is rather special and while I think that it should be mentioned in wikipedia it really needs a better approach. If I knew how I'd do it but I'm removing the paragraph.

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Lovecraft and Poe (another who mixed science-fiction with horror) are enormous. I am not convinced by perennial claims that every new horror trend on the block has outmoded the Gothic. Gothic has been proclaimed dead and outmoded so many times (starting circa 1800) but everytime fails to lie down in the grave. Also I have seen Lovecraft stories included in anthologies of Gothic fiction, such as 'The Oxford Book of Gothic Tales'.

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disputes over his estate. A problem I always see in these types of articles is the ever present "popular culture" sections. Since there are already articles about this and it's one of the more disorganized sections, excising it and leaving just a small paragraph and a redirect to the main "influence" article could go a long way to getting GA status. I won't make such sweeping changes without input though. Thoughts?

363:. Punter asserts that Lovecraft's work, rather than being anything new, represents a reversion to an older tradition i.e. the Gothic. Lovecraft embodied that longing in his own life and opinions: he hated the modern world and hankered for the olde (Englishe) order. He was not a modernist Americanist cheerleader for Science and Progress and Democracy and Soap Powders which wash whiter- he was the very reverse. 1846:

would eventually shape his work. As somebody mentioned above, Joshi's seminal biography points out that Lovecraft's scorn for foreigners has been given far more attention than it deserves. Quoting the entirety of 'On the Creation of Niggers' and large, racist excerpts from his stories is a step too far. This section seriously needs to be cut down to size. - Eam91 3rd September 2007 09:39 (GMT)

1243:"In the 1890s the fashionable Decadents liked to pretend that they belonged to all sorts of diabolic black mass cults & possessed all sorts of frightful occult information. The only specimen of this group still active is the rather over-advertised Aleister Crowley... who, by the way, is undoubtably the original of the villainous character in H.R. Wakefield's 'He Cometh and He Passes By'." 1472:"I had graduated from Brown University in 1980 (in the department of classics) and had gained a master's degree from Brown in 1982. I was accepted for a Ph.D. program at Princeton University, where I received the Paul Elmer More fellowship in classical philosophy, but left after two years there; I had come to believe that the academic arena was not where I belonged." 966:

on some of his works was owned by a publisher and won't come into the public domain until 2016, or at least so it has been argued.) This question is not irrelevant to the editing of the HPL article, and those interested in the article may have information/opinions on it. (Good luck finding a lawyer to give you a definitive answer to that question, by the way.)

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instance are modern writers 'better' than Shakespeare or Homer? I get the feeling from much Lovecraft 'criticism' that it is the products of the kind of cultism, particularly with regard to Cthulhu mythos, that you find with Tolkein's Middle Earth - i.e. that it is an extra-literary indulgent fantasy...

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By comparison, there is no section on race, class, etc, in the pages on F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemmingway (who uses the "n word" in his fiction), Sherwood Anderson, or even Ezra Pound (there is discussion of his political and social views dispersed through the article). The article on T.S. Eliot

1874:

What really needs to be cut is the "Examples" section. One or two is OK, anything past that is "We get the point" territory. There's no avoiding the issue, and it definitely pertains to themes of genetic deterioration (his concept, not mine) in stories like "Arthur Jermyn" and "The Lurking Fear", but

1812:

For every reference to race in his stories, at least as many can be found to the discoveries, apparatus and possible future of science. The same is true of his interest in antiquarian and architectural matters. These points are given short shrift. If I produce sections for them of 1300 words each,

1776:

I'll have a go. It looks justified to me because we are here for information, not word counts. I have read both sections and I found them both informative. We are not here to see whether racism-fans or anti-racism-fans beat biography-fans by achieving a larger number of words. Or the short answer is,

1239:

According to The Necronomicon Files by Daniel Harms & John Wisdom Gonce III Lovecraft did do some research on the occult, largely by writing to Clark Asthon Smith and asking him for pointers; apparently mention of books he used for study can be found in his letters. But he remained an atheist and

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But see, the reason it confused me is because works by HPL only left copyright on 1/1/2008 in a small part of the world. I, along with the majority of humanity, live in parts of the world where life+70 just isn't relevant. In the US, where these works originate, some of them are clearly in the public

909:

It is possible that the complete works of H. P. Lovecraft are in the public domain; the vast majority of them certainly are. However, I doubt that the creator of the website has dotted every i and crossed every t as to whether the versions he posted are in the public domain, as the originals are very

465:

Lovecraft certainly saw himself as following a tradition in his writing, and so elements of Gothic fiction can definitely be found in his work. But is there any horror writer whom that would not be true of? That's what I mean by saying if everything is Gothic, nothing is Gothic--there's a danger of

1808:

Joshi (whose name appears 18 times in this article, not counting footnotes) made clear in his biography of Lovecraft that he believed Lovecraft's atheism, not his racism, was of central importance to his outlook and the nature of his stories. This may or may not be. But it is the interpretation of

1576:

Academic and scholar don't mean the same thing. Wordnet (from dict.org) gives us this definition for a scholar: a learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who by long study has gained mastery in one or more disciplines . I have no clue what you mean by academics don't consider good and

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talks about why some of it has fallen into the public domain in the US, and why most of it may have. For what's left (and for more certainty), US copyright law is based on publishing date for works published before 1978, and anything still under copyright in the US will leave copyright 95 years from

1109:

I might have missed something in the archive, but I think paragraph two ("Lovecraft's readership was limited during his life...") is out of place. I think it should be dropped down into the body of the article or, at least, below paragraph three. Paragraph three is why anyone would want to read an

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One thing I found particularly disturbing is his vision of a future where technology advances but evil & chaos rule. We usually think of technology freeing us from tyranny of natural forces so we can live in a well-fed democratic society devoted to improving the human condition, exploring space,

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match up to them. I'm not sure if over the course of writing history, that Shakespeare is not a modern writer. Most of the authors who wrote Greco-Roman-style epics after Homer and Virgil have been forgotten. Most of the poets who wrote Victorian-style poetry after the start of the 20th century have

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Unfortunately, it was killed by Wikimedia Commons themselves because whomever uploaded it never included the Source (see this article's history for edit notes). If you can find a better one that is in the public domain, or is otherwise free to use, please feel free to fix it. However, don't forget

1892:

A capital idea. I think a special mention of his initial discovery of the township Marblehead, Massachusetts on December the 17th, 1922 would be appropriate; indeed Joshi aptly described it as 'the most powerful emotional climax he had ever experienced'. This would be an essential contribution to a

1692:

Robert C. Hall is described as "Administrator of the Literary Estate of Howard P. Lovecraft" in the 2000 edition of "Tales of H.P. Lovecraft" Selected by J.C. Oates (originally published by Ecco in 1997). Who on earth is this person? I can't find any information on him. Other's who've tried writing

1651:

Reading the (unsigned) post above once more, I am more convinced than ever that this is original research. Your arguments are interesting, and I'd urge you to try to get them published in some other publication. But Knowledge is an encyclopedia, not a journal or a newspaper. It isn't designed to

1317:", and yet, upon inspection, there is no Photo Gallery to be found! Does anybody know of a photo gallery of Lovecraft? I have tried typing his name into google, but It does not show all of the photographs taken of him. Please direct me to a photo gallery. Thank you. EAM91 21:38 (GMT) 21st May 2007. 965:

Not after a "definitive answer about copyrights", but the legality of a link from Knowledge had been questioned. January 1st 2008 was the day on which all works by authors who died in 1938 came into the public domain, and so I assumed the works of HPL would be included. (It seems that the copyright

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under "Video Games" it lists the "Shin Megami Tensei" series as "heavily based on Lovecraft lore, especially the spin-off Persona".This is completely wrong.The series NEVER based it's story on any of the Lovecraft works.A handful (no more than five Cthulhu demons used,out of 500+ demons used in the

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Forerunner of "Cosmic Horror" is the Author named William Hope Hodgson. "The House on The Borderlands" is a among the first writings to be considered a "Cosmic Horror" novel. It is written in the form of a lost, but found manuscript and is a decade or two before Mr. H.P. Lovecraft. William Hope

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Carter uses some interestingly optimistic Americanist advertising language in your critiques: 'innovation', 'fresh new paths'. I don't see what supposed newness and 'progress' has to do with literary value. Maybe the reverse is true, that by going backwards you arrive at something fundamental. For

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The secret of Lovecraft's successs, and perhaps that of his popularity as well, lies in innovation. Where Coppard, James, and many of the other perhaps more gifted macabre writers of the century were, in the main, content to rework the familiar themes of ghosts, werewolves, vampires, hauntings, and

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I was recently on you tube which showed a few trailers for a new Lovecraft documentary: "Lovecraft: Fear of the Unknown", a 'Wyrd' documentary. The trailers featured notable participants such as Ramsey Campbell, Peter Straub and Neil Gaiman. Does anybody know any more about this programme, and when

1816:

The wikipedia article on Adolf Hitler, a man whose racial views certainly influenced his work, has no separate section detailing his racist utterances. By contrast, the article on Lovecraft--who as far as I know never committed genocide or advocated it--and who was the friend of Samuel Loveman (a

1424:

An academic is a person who works as a researcher (and usually teacher) at a university or similar institution in post-secondary (or tertiary) education. He or she is nearly always an advanced degree holder who does research. In the United States, the term academic is approximately synonymous with

1151:

I agree with the above. If we could work out consensus on a few major entries of each type, that would be fine, but long lists of individual names are only going to clutter the infobox, which would seem to defeat its purpose. As "Supernatural Horror in Literature" suggests, Lovecraft had a great

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I do not assert that everything is Gothic, rather that Lovecraft could be regarded as Gothic. As for ghosts, werewolves and vampires, and the supernatural they are not essential to the Gothic. In the classic Gothic work of Radcliffe, for instance, the seemingly supernatural elements are explained

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I once read in this article - it seems to have since been removed - that Lovecraft's gravesite marker is commonly defaced with the words 'That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die'. Does anyone have any more information about this? I always found it the best

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I should add that I am looking for a justification of the ratio between the discussion of his literary career that of his racial views--not requesting that the section on race be cut--not asking for argument about the extent of his racism or how profoundly anyone imagines it informed his work. I

1845:

Yes, the section on Lovecraft's infamous racial attitudes is far too long and places far too much emphasis on one facet of his personality; there is little on his antiquarianism, which had a far greater effect on his work than his xenophobia, and a myriad of other ideas and beliefs he held which

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was released under a Creative Commons online a few months ago, and a link to that novel would be valuable here, I think. It's been very well received, translated into a few languages, now, and Mamatas is notable enough to have his own article, as does the novel. More to the point, the novel's a

1124:

I removed the influenced in the infobox but was reverted. The way it looks now it is too big and unpractical. It actually should only mention a few really obvious cases, but the problem with putting things in an infobox instead of prose in the article, is that people keep adding their favourite

1079:

I'm not entirely certain where the term comes from, but it seems unlikely to me that Lovecraft himself used it to describe himself. He was a cosmic indifferentist, if anything: the universe cares nothing either way about humanity. That doesn't sound like pessimism; pessimism would be that the

1031:

Another problem: the text of a Lovecraft tale published in a 1920s in a pulp magazine, cut or paraphrased to fit space available, might be public domain due to copyright status; a restored text prepared by a scholar with access to Lovecraft's manuscript or notes might have a different copyright

829:

Alright, I went through the entire bio section and cleaned up some of the GA concerns. I also added some detail. To me it would seem we could add more, as I think the article should be mostly biographical and explore the themes of his writing as they relate to him and maybe the section on the

1922:

and married Sonia Haft Greene. Strange behaviour for an anti-semite. Lovecraft's quirky Anglophilia and racial views a part of his personality, but ultimately a small part. When a friend came back from Germany about 1935 and told him what was really going on there, Lovecraft went from being an

1720:

The Adaptations section is getting rather long, and many of the items listed are Lovecraft/Cthulhu-inspired works or merely allude to Lovecraft rather than adapting works by Lovecraft himself. (This is particularly true of the sections on music and video games.) If no one objects, I will be

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there is nothing supernatural and there is nothing supernatural about Shelley's Frankenstein. And Lovecraft's terrors are anything but modern: the Yuggoth-Suggoth gang are very ancient (and evil) indeed, even older (and eviller) than Count Dracula. The classic Gothic scenario, which Lovecraft

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I think the trouble is that most Lovecraft fanatics have never read much of the older Gothic fiction and vice versa. The science-fiction element in Gothic Horror was present from the time of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein (1819), it was not an invention of Lovecraft, and the resemblances between

1982:

The last paragraph, Lovecraft and gaming, is just wrong. Right now it says "The Lovecraftian world has also made its mark on gaming. The board game, Arkham Horror, is in its fourth edition and a steady stream of expansions 22 years since its initial release. Chaosium first made its mark as a

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This one is a little bit sticky as I am not worried about this issue enough to take the time to cite my sources. If anyone has actually sat down and read any of Joshi’s writing you will rapidly notice that most of it is deeply concerned with establishing a hierarchy of “good” and “bad.” He

1075:

I suppose it was 'coined' due to Lovecraft's pessimism of the cosmos, which features prominatley in some of his fiction. Who originally thought of this appropriate phrase, I don't know. Perhaps Lovecraft himself thought it up, one of his correspondants, or a Lovecraft scholar (ST Joshi, for

2072:

You're joking, surely? "I've met a lot of people who believe that Cthulu is real and that they worship him as a god." Snigger. Do you mind me asking where on earth you found these people? In some sort of institution? You must be having a laugh. Seriously, however, though I've yet to meet an

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I am trying to find a comprehensive photo gallery of Lovecraft, and I can't find one anywhere! I looked on the H.P. Lovecraft Archive website, and on the home page, under the sub-title 'His Life', it reads: "provides information on Lovecraft's life, family, correspondents, interest and a

1711:

I corresponded briefly with relative & remaining family descendant Robert C. Harrall regarding the Lovecraft copyright issues while writing a screenplay. If I remember correctly he is a retired Judge. (My memory could be mistaken about that as well...) ] 10:14, PM May 08 2009(UTC)

1260:

Lovecraft was Harry Houdini's ghost writer for awhile and, at the time of Houdini's death, was working on a book for Houdini entitled "The Cancer of Superstition" (first rough chapters and notes published the the Arkham House collection "The Dark Brotherhood"): the work was pretty much

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authors to it. In February there were 10 people on the list, now there are 21. Wouldn't it be more practical to have a separate (sourced) section instead of this list? Also, per the comment, I want people to read this article, not only casually glance at a stupid (IMO) infobox. :)

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Hodgson hails from the UK and was a Merchant Marine before becoming an Author. It is in Jacket-Liner Notes in some editions speaking of William Hope Hodgson's influence on Lovecraft. If not "influenced by" it should at least be looked at in the section about "Related Persons".

1490:, not for "scholar." Just because the Knowledge entry redirects to a page about "Academia" doesn't make "scholar" synonymous with "academic." Many a scholar has established his/her scholarly credentials without (or prior to) obtaining an academic post. One has to (ideally) 441:

The stock characters of gothic fiction include tyrants, villains, bandits, maniacs, Byronic heroes, persecuted maidens, femmes fatales, madwomen, magicians, vampires, werewolves, monsters, demons, revenants, ghosts, perambulating skeletons, the Wandering Jew and the Devil

1598:

It's not up to Knowledge to determine what a scholar is or is not. We are supposed to reflect the general consensus. Joshi is almost always referred to as a "Lovecraft scholar." Google "S.T. Joshi" and "scholar" and you will come up with tons of references. Here's a

1754:

This article has 1287 words of biography and 1365 words about racism. In an article about someone who came to attention for his literary fantasies rather than his social opinions, is this good balance? Does wikipedia have any guidelines about length or proportion?

662:

Just had a look at the broadcasting schedules for UK radio and noticed a programme on at 9.30 tonight on Radio 3 called 'Weird Tales - the Strange Life of HP Lovecraft' presented by Geoff Ward, Professor of Literature at Dundee University. Might be worth tuning in

1693:

Oates for info on him haven't gotten anywhere. If he's not related in anyway to Arkham House then it suggests that the stories contained in this volume may all be in the public domain, as there is no notice of copyright claim by Arkham house or Derleth. Anyone?

1200:

I don't think so. Everything I've read says he didn't believe in the occult at all. It's part of why he wrote the way he did, since he looked at such things rather clinically. His circle of friends consisted primarily of other horror and sf writers. People like

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hard to get a hold of and the edited versions available quite possibly have new copyrights. Whether we give the author the benefit of the doubt is a good question. It's also true that there are claimants to the copyright who have been known to get aggressive.--

2053:

I've met a lot of people who believe that Cthulu is real and that they worship him as a god. When I point out that Cthulu was invented in the 1930s by HP Lovecraft, they claim that Lovecraft channeled the truth in his fiction. How widespread is this belief?

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And on and on and on. Designating him a scholar is common practice. It is not even remotely controversial. If you can find any reputable reference that suggests that he should not be called a scholar, then the dispute might be worth mentioning in the

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knowledge of previous writers, all of whom might be influences; and he has probably influenced most major writers of horror in the past fifty years. But these can't all be listed in an infobox. I welcome discussion of what, if anything, to put there.

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Jew) throughout his life, details those things at length. How would it be if I went to the Martin Luther King article and created a long section detailing his extramarital affairs? No one could say that it was irrelevant. But what would you think?

810:

I'm going to go slowly through this article and start fixing some of the grammatical errors and comma overusage. I won't change the meaning of anything nor delete anything, just clarify. Some of the sentences are currently bordering on unreadable.

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Prominent features of gothic fiction include terror (both psychological and physical), mystery, the supernatural, ghosts, haunted houses and Gothic architecture, castles, darkness, death, decay, doubles, madness, secrets and hereditary

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Let me go over the article and see if I can't produce an acceptable revision. The points made in the section on racism might be retained and expressed more economically, and I might make sections on his antiquarianism and interest in

1820:

Again, I am not calling for the elimination of the section but a shortening of it, something more summary, so that the article does not give the impression that racism was a more significant component of his life and work than it was.

271:. If we add up the supposedly unique Lovecraftian blend of Horror+Fantasy+Science Fiction doesn't that add up to 'Gothic Horror'? He was certainly very well read on the subject as his book 'Supernatural Horror in Literature' proves. 2110:

The reason that page exists is to keep an already overlong bio page from becoming cluttered with instances of every Scandanavian metal band, RPG, webcomic and Family Guy episode that ever mentioned anything vaguely Cthulhian.

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To me, Joshi has done the prototypical act of a scholar when he wrote the bibliography of Lovecraft. It's a tedious act of knowledge collection, only recognized by scholars. That almost alone would earn him the title of

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It seems to me that Gothic horror was the kind of horror that Lovecraft was reacting against, trying to replace the stock supernatural props (ghosts, vampires, werewolves) with more modern terrors. Judging from

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with no source at hand to sustain it, but I guess some other asserts in this article are essentialy factual, lacking a minimum of critical references about Lovecraft stories. I'am basically pointing out to the

1389:

I was searching for a complete edition of H. P. Lovecrafts work, but only found a german one, which is still not complete, afaik. Maybe one of you could tell me if there is one, and where I could find it.

1441:

Knowledge really needs to get over itself. A teaching assistant or and instructor can also be considered an academic. Guess what? Most professors don't do research. Too much Asperger's up in here.

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domain, some of them aren't (and generally won't be for a long time), and some of them are in question--and some of the last may depend on the text of contracts and agreements that no longer exist.--

1702:

Robert C. Harrall is the great-grandson of Lovecraft's second cousin Ethel Phillips Morrish. IIRC (and I might be wrong, let's be clear on that), he's a lawyer specialising in intellectual property.

1498:

an academic in the first place! There's nothing wrong with your "just semantics", but really, that's a sleazy move, simply transferring the definition of one word to an entirely different one!

1570:

Precision demands that the word "scholar" be removed from before Joshi's name in this article as his qualifications and style of writing do not fit the denotation or connotation of the word.

1835:

I agree that the section's length is somewhat unbalanced. If you want to shorten it yourself, I have no objection; otherwise, I may take a look at it in the future as time permits.

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has a section on his anti-semitism. It seems that, given the coverage of these other writers, the amount of attention given to Lovecraft's more dubious opinions seems excessive.

2013:. Newfane and Rutland are mentioned, but part of the story actually takes place in Brattleboro. Perhaps we should discuss a criteria for how these locations should be chosen. 249:

section. It's true that your point about hubris is not any more OR than a lot of other stuff already in there--but I'm hoping to keep the article from becoming more unsourced.

600:

Surely originality has been cited as a literary virtue since the time of Aeschylus. I dare say even Gilgamesh was admired because it did things that had never been done before.

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And now there are 22. I removed it again. Another reason why this should go is that you can't source practically in an infobox. All those influenced people do need a source.

1419:

Not that this necessarily precludes him from the world we call “scholarship” but the entry for “scholar” (which redirects to Academia in Knowledge) says without hesitation:

1246:

So Lovecraft definitely knew of Crowley, but the odds of them meeting are very slim. He knew about the occult, but only utilised it for his fiction and was never a believer.

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treating it as synonymous with horror fiction, which takes away the ability to talk about it as a separate and distinct stage in the evolution of fear-producing literature.

321:

No one, least of all Lovecraft, would deny that he was indebted to writers who came before, Poe in particular. But if everything is Gothic, then nothing is Gothic.

1407:

I know this may seem a little out of place, but hear me out. For those whose interest goes beyond mere fandom, you will inevitably hear much about the formidable

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Apparently, I went about this the wrong way previously, and just added a link. My apologies, especially since it was regarded as spam. Nick Mamatas' 2004 novel,

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universe is deliberately violent towards mankind (and cosmic optimism would, likewise, be that the universe is inclined to make things work out in our favour).

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instance). Or perhaps the phrase was applied to somebody else before Lovecraft - another author or astronomer, for example. - Eam91 12:35 (GMT) 11 April 2007.

635:

Surely it's a bit unfair to pick possibly the two most major writers of Western literature from three thousand years of writing and demand that modern writer

165:

It looks exactly as I imagined him to look, given the subject of his work. The stark white background and the black frame. It seems perfectly appropriate. -

1568:

As much as we may like them, articulate fans and biographers are not scholars and play by different sets of rules than those within the academic community.

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Please keep the "popular culture" section for references to Lovecraft-the-man in pop culture, and Mythos references in pop culture to the burgeoning

1366:

There's actually a Vertigo graphic novel titled "Lovecraft", written by Hans Rodionoff; adapted by Keith Giffen; art and Cover by Enrique Breccia (

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a materialist for his entire life. The book also quotes a letter from Lovecraft to Emil Petaja that mentions Crowley, somewhat disparagingly:

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I have to say that the idea that there isn't "anything new" about Lovecraft's work is distinctly a minority critical opinion. From Carter's

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Did Lovecraft know of Aleister Crowley and other occultists? Did he meet with them, or did he have no interest in such matters in reality?

735: 286:", at any rate, Lovecraft saw the Gothic as something other than what he was doing. I see that Lovecraft is mentioned in passing in the 750: 348:

follows, concerns the revelation of ancient, evil, and often, unearthly forces - forces which sometimes beyond comprehension (i.e. the

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I think the "Influence" section in the article covers enough. They just need to be sourced, which most of them presently are not.

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I've touched up the first four paragraphs of the bio section. Let me know if folks find this agreeable and I'll continue. Thanks

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is the link, but a link to the internal article would suffice, I'd think. (The CC version of the novel is already linked there.)

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The article is lacking of information on who H.P. Lovecraft was influenced by. For instance, his influences from M.R. James? --

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The list of locations is lacking. I know this only because it doesn't list Brattleboro, VT which is prominently featured in

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On the subject of the copyrights question, are there any of Lovecraft's works that he published in his lifetime that will

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Who is responisibe for that odious new picture of Lovecraft? GET THE OLD ONE BACK ON!! EAM91 20:00 (GMT) June 20th, 2007.

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What's special about January 1st 2008? If you want a definitive answer about copyrights, ask a lawyer, not Knowledge.--

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I wonder if the Weekly World News's 'Batboy' is based on this picture. (my apologies if I'm not editing this correctly)

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but what about Lovecraft himself as a fictional character? I have started a couple of entries along similar lines:

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And David Punter, for one, in his standard book on the subject of Gothic, puts Lovecraft in that category. See his

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Lovecraft actively promoted Loveman's poetry, which was in a genre not particularly popular at the time, mentored

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The movie was based on the video game of the same name, which was based (somewhat loosely) on Lovecraft's work.

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article. Otherwise, questioning his status as a scholar is original research, and has no place in Knowledge.

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pastiche of H.P. Lovecraft and Jack Kerouac, with other Beat Generation notables as primary characters.

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Ok, I acknowledge that it was a bit hasty on my part to connect H.P.'s characters with the concept of

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article about HPL - not the fact that he wasn't widely read or renowned during his lifetime, etc.

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Should we call any fan or book reviewer a scholar if they know their history and philosophy?

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website worth including as an external link, or even in the body of the article? Is it legal?

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http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/j/s-t-joshi/annotated-supernatural-horror-in-literature.htm

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I don't think this is the place to list every mention of a "swarthy mulatto" in his stories.

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Does Joshi spend a lot of time “reviewing” texts and authors like it was for a book club?

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According to the definition above of academic this would also preclude him as a “scholar.”

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it comes out? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Eam91 21:45, 5 November, 07.

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Why are the real locations called "historical"? What is the significance of that word?

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Did you make these edits? Because the racism section is still disproportional large --

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With the right angle, lighting and a right hat, he can look a lot like Sherlock Holmes.

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Where did this phrase come from? Can anyone tell me more about it? Thanks, friend. --

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As of January 1, 2008 all of H. P. Lovecraft's works will enter the public domain!

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Anyone saw the terrible movie "alone in the dark" featuring Christian Slater?

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anti-occultism, and reflects opinions expressed by Lovecraft in his letters.

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removing some of the more tenuous items. They could probably be added to

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And the Persona series completely built it's story on Jungian Psychology.

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Whereas Joshi in his autobiography does not meet the above requirements.

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http://www.necropress.com/index.cgi?product=onhl&cart_id=526592.8579

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I get the ghosts, vampires, etc. thing from the Knowledge article on

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So is he a “scholar” in the way that modern English uses the word?

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Just wondering whether we should assign Lovecraft to the genre of

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http://www.popanime.net/megami/index.php?title=Demonic_Compendium

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Is Joshi a remarkably well informed and articulate historian?

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http://www.amazon.ca/Annotated-H-P-Lovecraft-H-P/dp/0613226771

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to list sources or it will end up deleted like the last one.--

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I see it has been added (William Hope Hodgson). Thank you.

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I'm certain there's more but I can't remember atm --shodan

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want to know about the balance of commentary. Thank you.

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be definitively in the public domain on January 1st 2008?

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THIS IS LUDICROUS! Excuse me, but that definition is for

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Some thoughts... Please feel free to voice your opinion.

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article but his inclusion there seems poorly justified.

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the first Alone in the Dark and Clive Barker's Undying

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http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:No_original_research

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the author on whose work this article rests on most.

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be a forum for original, controversial theses. See "

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1) Joshi does not have a PhD and is not a professor.

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That movie is... sadly based on H.P Lovecraft story.

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so on, Lovecraft struck boldly into fresh new paths.

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Ambrose Bierce, Robert W. Chambers, H. P. Lovecraft

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Lovecraft 843:seems to repeat what is written in the 343:away at the end, in Sheridan Le Fanu's 887:to producing at least a B article. -- 861:series)appeared in all of SMT games. 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 1348:H. P. Lovecraft#Intellectual_property 903:the Complete works of H. P. Lovecraft 245:in this article--particularly in the 7: 771:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0369226/ 885:WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps 2103:Just moved a lot of cruft over to 707:H. P. Lovecraft in popular culture 673:Lovecraft as a fictional character 24: 2116:Cthulhu Mythos in popular culture 2105:Cthulhu Mythos in popular culture 1723:Cthulhu Mythos in popular culture 1425:that of the job title professor.” 679:Cthulhu Mythos in popular culture 284:Supernatural Horror in Literature 1608:http://alangullette.com/lit/hpl/ 29: 2118:. That's what it's there for. 1920:Robert "Author of Psycho" Bloch 1805:A little more food for thought 1429:http://en.wikipedia.org/Scholar 683:Nikola Tesla in popular culture 1707:12:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC) 1294:http://www.moveunderground.org 845:Background of Lovecraft's work 170:17:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC) 1: 2093:21:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC) 2029:06:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC) 2011:The Whisperer in the Darkness 1933:03:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC) 1870:15:47, 18 December 2007 (UTC) 1855:12:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC) 1798:10:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC) 1520:3) The nature of his writing. 1271:02:43, 17 February 2010 (UTC) 714:20:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC) 687:Mark Twain in popular culture 326:12:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 309:09:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 295:22:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC) 276:19:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC) 254:12:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC) 236:11:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC) 205:10:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC) 2134:14:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC) 2068:17:48, 1 December 2007 (UTC) 2044:14:13, 2 November 2010 (UTC) 1978:07:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC) 1959:00:10, 12 October 2010 (UTC) 1458:20:14, 24 October 2010 (UTC) 1166:22:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC) 1085:22:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC) 1064:'oac' (old american century) 1042:04:11, 30 January 2011 (UTC) 858:Lovecraft in Popular culture 841:Lovecraft in Popular Culture 835:15:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC) 825:22:27, 8 February 2007 (UTC) 816:20:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC) 796:14:32, 1 February 2007 (UTC) 668:10:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC) 645:13:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC) 605:13:05, 2 December 2006 (UTC) 572:10:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC) 542:02:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC) 368:16:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC) 132:21:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC) 1840:20:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC) 1744:20:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC) 1734:22:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC) 1514:03:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 1157:23:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC) 1007:04:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC) 976:17:42, 22 August 2010 (UTC) 877:Biography assessment rating 729:22:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC) 2150: 2004: 1698:18:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC) 1256:19:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC) 1133:19:11, 28 April 2007 (UTC) 1115:03:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC) 1100:18:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC) 897:the Complete works website 689:and have proposed others: 2099:"Popular culture" cleanup 1682:18:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC) 1661:11:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1642:11:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1588:08:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC) 1378:20:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC) 1171:Relations with occultists 1071:04:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC) 949:12:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC) 932:09:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC) 915:13:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC) 892:12:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC) 852:20:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC) 184:09:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC) 161:18:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC) 151:18:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC) 107:New Lovecraft Documentary 1999:08:00, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 1916:friend of Samuel Loveman 1885:02:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC) 1398:15:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC) 1356:18:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC) 1341:17:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC) 759:22:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC) 744:23:42, 12 May 2011 (UTC) 701:. So with exmaples like 357:The Literature of Terror 138:NEW PICTURE IS TERRIBLE 1688:Who is Robert C. Hall ? 1301:14:02, 9 May 2007 (UTC) 1233:20:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC) 1146:22:10, 1 May 2007 (UTC) 864:Check the MegatenWiki: 677:There is the excellent 776:Anyone agree with me? 1391:Thank you in advance, 1219:comment was added by 1213:, to name but a few. 1120:Influenced in infobox 782:comment was added by 42:of past discussions. 18:Talk:H. P. Lovecraft 1727:Lovecraftian horror 1716:Adaptations section 856:Also regarding the 761:Jeremy Yachimowski 746:Jeremy Yachimowski 212:forbidden knowledge 1828:signed but undated 1762:signed but undated 1287:Move Under Ground, 1203:Clark Ashton Smith 97:Hewhorulestheworld 2136: 2124:comment added by 2095: 2079:comment added by 2031: 2019:comment added by 1989:comment added by 1962: 1945:comment added by 1912: 1899:comment added by 1831: 1801: 1784:comment added by 1765: 1684: 1672:comment added by 1561:I don't think so. 1516: 1504:comment added by 1448:comment added by 1383:Complete Edition? 1236: 1196: 1182:comment added by 799: 640:been forgotten.-- 243:original research 214:and its possible 134: 118:comment added by 87: 86: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 2141: 2119: 2074: 2064: 2059: 2014: 2001: 1961: 1939: 1894: 1826:—The preceding 1825: 1800: 1778: 1760:—The preceding 1759: 1729:if people like. 1667: 1499: 1460: 1362:Lovecraft Comics 1333: 1214: 1207:Robert E. 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1123: 1108: 1088: 1078: 1074: 1061: 1034:Naaman Brown 924: 900: 882: 871: 866: 863: 857: 855: 844: 840: 838: 828: 819: 809: 801: 775: 768: 748: 732: 723: 676: 661: 636: 488: 360: 356: 344: 266: 258: 246: 228: 223: 221: 215: 211: 210:Lovecraft's 194: 176:24.84.112.64 141: 110: 93: 65: 43: 37: 2120:—Preceding 2075:—Preceding 2015:—Preceding 1985:—Preceding 1941:—Preceding 1895:—Preceding 1877:GuySperanza 1780:—Preceding 1668:—Preceding 1555:Not really. 1543:Absolutely. 1500:—Preceding 1444:—Preceding 1178:—Preceding 1092:Carl Ponder 849:Azn Clayjar 784:Nullentropy 345:Uncle Silas 218:connections 114:—Preceding 36:This is an 1635:S.T. Joshi 1585:Prosfilaes 1583:scholar.-- 1537:Of course. 1531:Certainly. 1409:S.T. 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