Talk:House system at the California Institute of Technology

2865:, or 2)- "the collection of student groups called houses that they host". It would seem, the long time being capitalized notwithstanding, that the examples (the building or the collection they host) do not name an individual building because I cannot find such specifically named building (North or South). The "Grand Canyon" specifically points to one specific canyon so there is no confusion. If someone stated they were from "North Houses", I would imagine (please correct me if my surmising is in error) it would illicit "Which one"? The seemingly pretty well-researched analysis of Antony–22 (unless validly contested) concerning sources seems clear but I fear the opinion "Each of the South and North Houses are actually a single building." is flawed. A picture can show one building in a group but I will offer that the building, if one of the named "North and South Houses", actually has a specific name. The only real criteria is if "the sources using capitals constitute a "substantial majority", and of course, if consensus agrees. We can dispense with trying to wrongly qualify the reasoning. -- 1373:

sense. Capitalisation is a matter of orthography and is not equivalent to "proper name/noun" as a matter of grammar - though many perceive it is. What Mrs McGillicuddy taught us about proper nouns and capitalisation in grade 7 is quite adequate in most instances but unravels at the fringes (such as here) because it has been simplified for a grade 7 mind and rarely developed further. English is a language that defies codification. MOS:CAPS tacitly acknowledges the futility of trying to codify capitalisation style. Instead, it relies on usage and defines the criterion to establish capitalisation. A particular cohort will have its own jargon and this includes capitalisation. WP relies on generalist styling. If a "name" rises to be capitalised generally (independantly), consistently and in a substantial majority of cases, it is capitalised as if it were a "proper name" since capitalisation is clearly necessary, even if it is not a "true" proper name. "South houses" and "north houses" (describing the complexes)

4130:). As DL has said, you appear to have already acknowledged that we would not capitalise "houses" when it is being used synonymously with "fraternities". Such uses are therefore not relevant to determining the question of the RfC and should reasonably be culled from any analysis of sources being used to determine the question. Your analysis does not do this. Your conclusion is biased by data that is not relevant to the particular question. It is akin to claiming that a person who had covid but died in a car accident died of covid. As DL acknowledges, he may have over-excluded data and the "actual" result lies somewhere in between and somewhere less than 80%. 80% is a premise of your argument. It is not a premise of the RfC. You have made that argument because, by your analysis, you claim that the 80% threshold has been reached. But 4464:, we find "constructing a history of the Student Houses from 1930", "... the construction of the Student Houses. These Houses...", "opening of the North Houses in 1960", "for the Student Houses", "to tour each of the Houses", "three new Student Houses in 1960", "after the new Houses opened", "the North Houses each developed", and (quoting another report) "some suites in the south and north Houses". It's pretty clear that this doc likes to cap Houses and other things like Student, but in no case is there a suggestion that "North Houses" refers to the building complex; it's simply plural Houses, with inconsistent capitalization of other stuff. 3184:, we find "constructing a history of the Student Houses from 1930", "... the construction of the Student Houses. These Houses...", "opening of the North Houses in 1960", "for the Student Houses", "to tour each of the Houses", "three new Student Houses in 1960", "after the new Houses opened", "the North Houses each developed", and (quoting another report) "some suites in the south and north Houses". It's pretty clear that this doc likes to cap Houses and other things like Student, but in no case is there a suggestion that "North Houses" refers to the building complex; it's simply plural Houses, with inconsistent capitalization of other stuff. 4526:). Sometimes you'd see "new House" and "new Houses", but more often lowercase except in the early name placeholders "new House A", "new House B", and "new House C". The reference gradually changed during the 1970s or so to more often use north and south. Caps remain mixed, since nothing has these terms as proper name, but Techers generally seem to want to cap something to signify the importance of the Houses (and the more recent Hovses thing is just silly). Knowledge (XXG) avoids unnecessary capitalization, so there's no reason to follow Techers like Antony; he can cap as much as he wants elsewhere, but not on Knowledge (XXG). 3035:

uses the same terms to refer to the two complexes. When the buildings are being specifically referred to in sources, it is not uncommon for the distinction to be clarified, such as "the North Complex of student houses" (see preceding discussion). Such clarifications would not be required for a proper noun. There does not appear to be an official name for the two complexes. Specificity is not a distinguishing property of a proper noun, since can equally be achieved by the definite article ("the"). The majority of sources quoted by the OP are not independent since they are not written at arms-length from the subject.

4086:

consistency there, just a bunch of Caltech-style over-capping of one word or the other or both. The notion of consistency is key. See the stats on "Great Pyramid of Giza" again. Proper names usually show well above 90% caps in sources, and your 80% claim is a ridiculous stretch, since you include a bunch of things with mixed an unexplainable variations from what would be expected if these were proper names. I think my 0% estimate is actually closer, in terms of how of those sources provide evidence that these are proper names of buildings, or of anything.

3589:, South/North Houses are "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority" of a representative sample of sources. The proper name test does not have such an explicit requirement, but to repeat myself above, "Many but not all sources are clearly referring to the buildings, as they discuss the South/North Houses being constructed, renovated, or demolished, or to physical rooms in the buildings." (Also, we already agreed to let the unspecified usage "houses" be lowercase since their capitalization isn't consistent; that isn't at issue here. And 667:) applies to every aspect of Knowledge (XXG), including style, and as a core content policy it overrules everything else including the entire MOS and certainly an essay. This is essentially an iteration of the descriptive—prescriptive grammar debate, and arguments can be certainly be made about whether actual usage in sources, or a general (external) style guide, is more reliable as a source. That doesn't apply here because there is no style guide that mentions this case specifically; rather it falls under the general category of proper nouns. 2468: 2941:, in which the three north houses each connect to the Browne Dining Hall (the part I was called the shared kitchen), but not to each other (except for the covered breezeway connecting Page House to Lloyd House). They have distinct building numbers (52 for the dining hall, 53 through 55 for the north houses). The south houses are buildings 57 through 60. The terms north and south do not appear on the map, capped or otherwise. Just building names appear. There's also no name for the complex of buildings 45 through 50, and others like that. 3677:

I see no evidence of it, and didn't feel it when I was there). These terms refer to groups of named houses, and are descriptive terms that Techers sometimes capitalize. If they were proper names, they'd have to refer to actual entities, but you can see by the usage that they do not. MOSCAPS is clear that when sources show capitalization to be optional and unnecessary, we don't cap. The criterion of a substantial majority of independent sources is not met, not even by this group of insider Caltech sources.

3216:– Pretty mixed capping of house with "the student houses" multiple places, also "Caltech's Houses" and "North Houses" and "South Houses" and "the Houses" in multiple places. Also singular variations like "pending North House renovations" and "North House members". No particular sign of referring to the complexes as building though; in "once the North Houses are rebuilt", the term is not used as a singular building. Similarly "The South Houses’ lounges" is not using South Houses as if it's a building. 2442:. The problem with these complexes is that they do not appear to have an official name. Furthermore, the degree of capitalisation is not the same as we see for the Grand Canyon - not even in sources that have close ties to the subject. Geographic features (rivers, mountains and like) commonly take a binary form that includes a descriptor. It is a near universally applied convention to apply capitalisation to the full noun phrase (including the descriptor) even when the descriptor is redundant (see 562:. The Google searches you link to bring up are things like "The Insider's Guide to the Colleges", which has a few pages on each of a hundred or so colleges, which makes me doubt that they have the editorial oversight to actually figure out what the proper capitalization is. I'd consider a student who wrote a formal research text about it to be much more reliable. And Rotation is a proper noun in this context, as it refers to a specific event that recurs at a specific time, like Thanksgiving. 2498: 2901:

called the "new houses" and "old houses" among other things. Nobody ever treated the Chandler dining hall as part of the north/new houses, even though it is part of the same complex sharing a kitchen; it's not where house residents eat. Students think of their houses as separate buildings, even though they connect and share a kitchen. It's not unusual for buildings to connect, especially on campuses, without having proper names for the connected complexes.

971:: "The most popular of these is Chandler dining hall. It is attached to the same building as the north houses..." The north houses are actually quite distinct buildings, have dining rooms that attach them, like Chandler, to a central kitchen building. It was all designed and built together, but the distinctness of the houses (see in the satellite view, for example), and their distinction from the south houses, is what the term conveys. 169: 520:), not because it's a proper name. The WJE one has a link to a "project brochure" that calls them "Caltech South Undergraduate Houses"; they wouldn't do that if they thought "South Houses" was a proper name. The catalog doesn't seem to mention "South Houses" nor "North Houses", but does mention the "South House laundry room"; if they thought "South Houses" was a proper name, why didn't they say "South Houses laundry room"? Look at 608:

that even Caltech does not consistently cap these. Expanding the search you find lots more, though it becomes trickier to restrict the search to avoid unrelated uses of the phrases. Same issue with rotation, which is a fine thing to call the yearly process (also referred to as "Rotation Week", "a week called Rotation", "a week of rotation", "a process known as rotation", etc.), but it doesn't have a proper name like Thanksgiving.

909:

across the hundreds on the Caltech website. These were apparently not collected systematically and are not representative of their respective corpuses as a whole, so this is a fallacious argument. A valid analysis would be to pick 10 or 20 issues of the Tech at random and analyze those for capitalization, or better yet to use a script to analyze all issues of the Tech or the entire Caltech website if you really care that much.

74: 53: 4042:

use them that way, except perhaps for the South Houses redo project, which was also referred to with a variety of other forms; not much evidence of treatment as a proper name of anything, especially in light of the inconsistency of usage and style. I'm not saying that my "correction" of your stats to 0% is unbiased, but neither are your numbers. Wherever the truth might lie in between, it's not enough for the criteria in

84: 3489:– lots about "the seven houses" (over 20 lowercase "houses"). "renovation of the South Houses in 2005 as the main threat", "plumbing and wiring have not been redone in 70 years in the South Houses!", "when the North Houses are renovated/replaced". So yes this one was fair to count, except that it's "the North Houses are", not "North Houses is" as would be expected if "North Houses" was the name of a building. 4622:- The use of proper caps averts the possibility of confusion for readers. The capitalization, IMO, should be based on either names officially adopted by CIT or their usage in official publications and other reliable sources. The documentation above indicates to me that the use of capitals is well supported. "Official" or not this also happens to be how our language itself evolves, that is, through usage. 3655:"substantial majority" requirement by splitting hairs about whether the sources are referring to the houses as buildings or communities, when many cases could validly refer to either—and then positing that if they're referring to communities, then they're not proper names, the reasoning of which isn't even clear to me. Well, we've both laid out our evidence, and I'm happy to see what others think. 3447:– "additional apartments in the South Houses", "if the houses are not finished in time", "The North Houses not be renovated", "in Page House, in Ricketts House, in Dabney House, and in all the other houses". "Avery has joined the other houses' meal plan", and "Avery's bastardized introduction in the house system is no being legitimized". Treatment of lowercase house still prevales in 2005. 794:

that, say, the Grand Canyon is a proper name, even though many other canyons may be described as grand. Or the North and South Towers of the old World Trade Center. I believe the fact that they're grammatically plural may be confusing to editors who aren't familiar with them, even though they're each a single building. (Photos of the South Houses complex for the sake of illustration:

2472: 1924:, which can be either single words or phrases, are typically capitalized," and "Knowledge (XXG) relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Knowledge (XXG)." This RfC applies to this article as well as the related articles 521: 4307:. Yet that is precisely what your analysis is doing. It is appropriate to exclude samples from the sample pool if it does not clearly refer to the building complexes, as opposed to a grouping of fraternities since the question to be answered is whether we should be capitalising the terms when they are referring to the building complexes (and not the grouping of fraternities). 230: 3191:– "the seven undergraduate Houses", "the South Hovse (Blacker, Dabney, Fleming & Ricketts) and the North Houses (Lloyd, Page and Ruddock)", "South Houses in 1932", "how the houses were origionally organized", etc. Pretty mixed, no suggestions that the complexes of houses are buildings with proper names (though the individual houses are buildings with proper names). The 22: 1205:

may reasonably be read as such. It is not even clear these are "singular" structures or a "complex" of co-joined structures - as described by the architects (per above). There appears to be no official name. The "complexes" are variously described, even recently. While these "descriptions" may be capitalised, they are nonetheless "descriptive". This is definitely

3619:

that you counted in your favor; "consistently capitalized" is far from what we see, as opposed to a hodgepodge of capitalizing sometimes north or south, sometimes house or houses; not the name of anything; "both words capitalized", for various word variations and references, is not quite what MOSCAPS is asking us to look for to decide if they're proper names.

3238:: "the current Houses", "existing undergraduate houses", "existing undergraduate Houses", "restoration of the south Houses and the tear down and reconstruction of a set of 4 north Houses", "suites in the south and north Houses". (Antony did note that this was the only one not capping north and south; it's kind of establishes what was normal 20 years ago.) 3323:– "The student house networking project at Caltech has made available a 100baseT ethernet port for every resident in the on-campus houses (the North and South undergraduate house complexes, ..." – complexes, not buildings. Also overcapped "The North Houses, South Houses and Temporary Housing Facility used during South House Remodeling." No consistency. 1234: 1162:. I have not followed developments at the other article but most of the initial issues have been resolved save (most prominent) capitalisation of: north houses, south houses and rotation. Apart from those editors specifically involved in the initial reverts, two other editors have joined the discussion in support of the changes with both citing 4264:

all sources are clearly referring to the buildings, as they discuss the South/North Houses being constructed, renovated, or demolished, or to physical rooms in the buildings. To avoid confusion, this article and the related articles listed below have been edited so that the terms "South Houses" and "North Houses" can only refer to the buildings.

4172:"Substantial majority" is not defined. I took it as meaning "substantially more than a majority". 51% or 55% is not a substantial majority, but I think it starts to get there once you get to 70% or so—the extra 20% is a pretty substantial chunk, in my opinion. But since there's no stated definition, there's really no way to argue about it. 1323:, with "Undergraduate Houses/Residences are as follows: Bechtel Residence; Avery House; North Houses: Lloyd House, Page House, and Venerable House; and South Houses: Fleming..." it sounds like it refers to the groups of houses, not the buildings. And even if they do refer to the buildings, what is the evidence that the buildings were actually 2886:("South Houses and North Houses are proper nouns and not descriptive; they're the formal names of the two buildings.") referred to on 11 November 2021 by Antony–22? To me it seems they could be the formal names of each of the collective group of buildings but I will stand corrected if we pin-point the two specific buildings. Thanks, -- 3422:– "the South Houses renovation," "the South House renovation project", "asbestos in the South Houses", " each of the Houses you are visiting during Rotation", "the student Houses", "the undergraduate Houses". Plenty of conventional Caltech capitalization in that one, but no suggestion that the house complexes are named buildings. 2451: 4874:, so there is an issue of multiple inline "citation needed" tags and at least one "original research?" question. Aside from a large amount of unsourced material, there are unsourced sections and sub-sections. Maybe a "General references" section would help a C-class article so hopefully, someone can look at this. -- 2447: 893:. "Substantial majority" is not absolute consistency. There can be outliers causing variability across the sources, while at the same time a substantial majority of sources agree with each other. The former does not disprove the latter, and presenting a few counterexamples in a non-systematic way is prone to 4417:

1932", "restore and modernize Caltech’s South Houses...", "The 'South Houses' are comprised of four individual undergraduate student houses interconnected by party walls, arcades, and open courtyards". Note again the reasonably consistent use of capitals in the most reliable and independent sources available.

233:, it's apparent that "house" is seldom treated as a proper noun; it's capped when part of a name (like "Lloyd House", where I was a member, class of '74), but not in "house system", "south houses", etc. Sometimes North and South are capped, but not enough to pass Knowledge (XXG)'s threshold as described in 3227:. "the undergraduate houses", "the South House laundry room", "matters affecting the houses", "Undergraduate housing includes the eight houses (Avery, Blacker, Dabney, Fleming, Lloyd, Page, Ricketts, Ruddock), and the Bechtel Residence and Marks House and Braun House." No South Houses, no North Houses. 4779:

A personal blog by a former student can hardly be considered either reliable or independent. And I understand the reasoning, a typical silly Caltech undergrad thing. But of course, the Romans also had no lowercase letters, so "Hovse" is nonsense, even if it was popular among undergraduates. That's

4471:

Your rebuttal does not refute this. There is no suggestion in the source that they consider "North Houses" to be the name of a building or complex, and a strong indication that "Houses" is capitalized there for other reasons. Are there sources that cap North Houses but don't have a style of capping

4302:

The question of the RfC is to determine the capitalisation of "North Houses" and "South Houses" when it is specifically being used to refer to the two building complexes. Only data that specifically uses the terms to refer to the building complexes is relevant to determining the question. You can't

4193:

Substantial majority may not be defined, but you've counted in your estimates quite a few sources that include mixed capitalization and variant forms, as my closer look at the sources show. "South House Kitchens" and "South House laundry" can not really be taken as evidence for proper name status of

3892:

guideline. We recognize that specialists increasingly like to cap their important stuff, even when it's not the proper name of anything, and that's obviously been going on, to varying degrees, at Caltech since 1959. WP style is to avoid unnecessary capitalization, and sources here, even the Caltech

3034:

In the article, north houses and south houses generally refer to the "houses" (colleges/fraternitiies) co-located in one of two complexes - to the north or to the south. It is clearly not necessary for us to capitalise "South Houses" when referring to the "south fraternities". The article sometimes

2986:

South Houses, which is clearly architecturally and structurally one building. The building contains four student houses (Ricketts House, Blacker House, Dabney House, and Fleming House) that each occupy a specific part of the building. The North Houses have a similar setup. Even the Google Maps and

1331:

uses lowercase in "In some indeterminate number of years, the north houses will be reconstructed". And it's almost always with "the", not "North Houses" will be reconstructed. The company that did the renovations called them the "South Undergraduate Houses", so they apparently didn't think of it as

1237:

discussing Caltech's house system, so I don't think notability is an issue. I agree on using lowercase, obviously. Only the one techer who created the article is insisting on caps, and reverting the fixes. While we agree that caps for "North Houses" and "South Houses" have increased over the years,

1192:

have any editorial oversight as to make them "reliable" (and then, they are not independent). There are a very few sources that might be identified by searching Google or Google Books that might satisfy the criteria. Even then, the opponent to the move would dispute their "editorial oversight", but

1074:

But "terminology hadn't stabilized" was my point. And it still hasn't is the rest of the point. Capitalization has increased, but is still clearly "optional", not "consistent". Nobody ever declared "North Houses" to be the official name of that complex, and nobody thinks of Chandler as part of the

1050:

I don't think usage from the 1960s is relevant because the North Houses were new and the terminology hadn't stabilized yet. There are alternative names used sometimes, such as South Undergraduate Complex, but that's not particularly relevant either. Yes, the three houses and Chandler/Browne are all

908:

provided to prove a different point (that "house" and "house system" by themselves were not consistently capitalized), and found that every single one of them used capitalized South/North Houses. User:Dicklyon responded by posting three issues of the Tech that span 32 years, as well as two web pages

4798:

is a similar example, as it also uses the old Latin "u" (rendered with a "v") in 100% of its branding and clothing, but that doesn't make the letter a "v", its still a "u". A brief mention can be made to say that the houses are sometimes rendered as hovses, but usage throughout the article should be

4412:

Just to take the very first example listed: in "opening of the North Houses in 1960", North Houses could be either a proper noun or a descriptive term. It could mean "opening of the building called the North Houses" (proper noun) or "opening of the houses north of the Olive Walk" (descriptive). It

4161:

that I consider "House" and "house" to both be grammatically proper usages, and I don't think it's necessary or warranted to exclude sources from my analysis based on that. Even if I did, it wouldn't change anything. I did say that capitalized "House" wasn't used consistently enough in the sources

3676:

Well they're certainly not names of communities, and I'm pretty sure I didn't posit that. As you know, I'm sure, there are communities of undergrads as a whole, house residents as a whole, and individual houses' members; but the north and south house groups don't have any particular communities (or

2720:

per the prior discussion that shows that "North Houses" and "South Houses" are not (historically) the name of buildings. These complexes are not generally even thought of as buildings (the north complex even includes the (previously-named) Chandler dining hall, which is not a house at all). Please

1879:

The second problem was overcapitalization, making them less useful to define whether these words can be considered proper nouns or not, a topic to which the discussion then veered into. Editors against the capitalization posited that North and South Houses are clearly not proper names, but instead a

1649:

What's going on here is that, for a small and well-defined group of particular referents, the group name is a proper noun as well, even if it has the appearance of being descriptive rather than arbitrary. So we write Twin Towers, but Manhattan skyscrapers; or former Secretaries of State, but former

1534:

stuff is ridiculous, and other exceptions are even more bizarre, but pretending they don't exist doesn't get us anywhere. Even if it were true it's not going to convince anyone, all it does is muddle discussions. Now I'm off to find someplace else to rant about how Knowledge (XXG) can't ever seem to

1213:

proper noun/name. While, in general, we might capitalise terms for distinction, this is contrary to MOS:CAPS - unless it should meet the criterion therein (that it is consistently capitalised in a substantial majority of independent reliable sources). It doesn't. Please don't give me a lecture on

1204:

It is claimed that "North House" and "South Houses" refer to the structures as "single structures" and are their (the structures) "proper names". In every instance, usage in the article refers to a collection of "houses" (ie colleges or sororities) in the "north" or "south" - at the very least, it

985:

Also note that after they were first built, they were referred to in the 1961 Big T as "student house", "new houses", and "old houses"; no north or south. In the 1962 Big T you see a few instances of capped "Houses", but still mostly lowercase and still no north and south. Eventually, "new" became

655:

itself requires a "substantial majority" of sources, not absolute consistency. It's sloppy work to pick out a couple of counterexamples haphazardly; as you know, the plural of anecdote is not data. If you were to write a script to analyze every issue of the Tech for capitalization, that would mean

607:

with "north houses"; etc.). When sources don't cap consistently, WP style is to use lowercase, not to invent reasons why it might be better to treat them as proper names even though sources often don't. These are knowledgeable sourcues at site:caltech.edu, not very independent, but clearly showing

226: 4668:

Would you prefer a close request now, or to keep the RfC open a bit longer? We've had recent new and changed !votes, and less participation than I hoped, probably because of the voluminous nature of our own comments. I've pretty much said all I have to say, so if we extend the RfC I'm unlikely to

4041:

I agree that proper names can be plural, but the way they're being used in most of those sources does not at all sound like they're referring to the collection of houses as a unit, the Twin Towers and Fay Apartments do. The premise of the RFC is that these are names of buildings; the sources don't

3809:

You're probably ancient like me. In my lifetime they went from old and new houses to south and north Houses, to South and North Houses, clearly as specialist capitalization to indicate what's import to Techers. But as Antony points out, my experience, being so long ago, is not very relevant. And

3618:

You thought it was important, for some reason, to refer to my references that show that "house" is not uniformly capped in Caltech docs, which is why I re-analyzed those. As for the terms "North Houses" and "South Houses" being names of buildings, that's roundly contradicted by most of the sources

3090:

is written and editted by residents of the houses, and only in recent years started using these terms mostly capped); independent books discussing residential life at Caltech don't cap them generally. So "A majority of sources appear to be referring to them by using capitalization" is not really a

1505:

Yeah, sadly, sometimes the specialists do gang up to make their case special, and that's the loophole. Sources don't mostly cap "last theorem" or "go", but it was hard to reach a consensus consistent with our style guidelines there. Shit happens. Even worse than those is the capping of "site" in

1372:

a proper noun because they have a specific referent. This is incorrect. They might be capitalised to distinguish or emphasise the particular noun phrase in running text or because they are seen to be important. These editorial style choices do not make the phrase a proper name in the grammatical

1214:

statistics. One needs to get and "adequate" corpus without bias (independent) before one can start talking about a "couple of outliers". There is nothing sufficient to show (per MOS:CAPS) that these terms are other than descriptive and are "necessarily" capitalised IAW MOS:CAPS. On the matter of

457:

is unusual in that is capitalizes Houses but uses lowercase south/north. The offline Wyllie book generally uses other terms to refer to the buildings, and the other sources don't mention South/North Houses. From the links you yourself posted above, every single one that mentions them uses capitals

4562:

Just because nobody can point to a time when the names "North Houses" and "South Houses" were given to buildings or complexes that never had names, and still don't according to official maps. And because the practice of capitalizing things about the houses goes back to before the new/north houses.

4416:

It is the same for all of the other examples cited. For illustration, the next few cited are "the North Houses each developed", "some suites in the south and north Houses", "the South Hovse (Blacker, Dabney, Fleming & Ricketts) and the North Houses (Lloyd, Page and Ruddock)", "South Houses in

4263:

There has been some confusion because South/North Houses could each refer to either the building or the collection of student groups called houses that they host. When used to refer to the building, it's clearly a proper name, but the situation is less clear for the student groupings. Many but not

2822:

where only the singular versions "North House" and "South House" appear. These run contrary to his hypothesis, but he counts them as if they support it. Same with the one that has "as the three North Houses combined", which is obviously referring the individual houses, not to a presumed building

2782:

has "the North and South undergraduate house complexes" but then later "The North Houses, South Houses and Temporary Housing Facility used during South House Remodeling are connected to the Campus Network." That later sentence obviously capitalizes more than proper names, so can't be relied on in

1581:

To repeat myself, there are many sources that discuss the South/North Houses being constructed, renovated, or demolished, or to physical rooms in the buildings. Some other sources refer to house culture or governance. We can distinguish between these uses. I'm not sure what you're getting at by

1529:

I don't know if the % is that high, or why anyone would bother with keeping track of it anyway. The exact number isn't important since the guidelines are what they are. Actually it's likely there's numerous discussions that are never noticed that take place between people who are not even aware we

4408:

If you believe that 85% is enough to be a substantial majority of sources, there needs to be a very strong argument that there is some other context to overcome this. Dicklyon is apparently trying to argue that the sources do not support their use as a proper noun, but his analysis shows no such

4355:

There are also precdents for accepting less than 80%, but those are cases where the term clearly names a thing. Here, there is no identifiable thing called "North Houses" or "South Houses". The terms are used for groupings of the houses more than for the buildings, but there are no identifiable

3954:: proving something is not a proper name does not mean it should be lowercase in Knowledge (XXG), according to the guidelines. I was very clear that the sources aren't consistent about referring to buildings versus communities, and the MOS doesn't even require consistency for that in particular. 3008:

The photos you link from the 1931 and 1932 Big T don't call those buildings South Houses. See the original captions "South Elevation of Student Houses" and "Undergraduate Living Houses" and "The Residence Halls". Today we call that complex the south houses, but that's not the name of a building.

2900:

They're complexes, not generally thought of as single buildings even though they share some parts. Nobody ever named them "North Houses" and "South Houses", though they are sometimes referred to that way (certainly not consistently). The groups of houses (or their building complexes) used to be

2437:

This analysis is an argument by analogy. To your "tests", you would assert an analogy with the "Grand Canyon". "Grand Canyon" is the official name of a geograpical feature and is capitalised as such, even though it might be considered descriptive. Furthermore, it is universally capitalised per

1883:

While there was some discussion over whether or not it mattered that North and South Houses were considered proper nouns, it seems that most participants agreed that North and South Houses are not proper nouns, and the level of capitalization shown by reliable sources is not sufficient to justify

1698:

That is a case of emphasis for distinction or importance. The constitution would capitalised nearly all nouns and there has been a progressive change toward less capitalisation for some time since that was written. It does not mean that capitalisation for importance or distinction does not still

1616:

proper noun" is an arbitrary label (name) applied to a particular referent (eg person, place etc). A person's name is a true proper noun. I use "arbitrary" to connote that such a label does not of itself describe that which bears the label. A person's name is a true proper noun. In the subject

4757:

It my time at Caltech (mid 2000s), the spelling "Hovse" was popular among undergraduates because the signs on the South Houses use that spelling, in imitation of ancient Roman inscriptions that lack the "U" glyph. And gdbg.org is independent of Caltech as it was written by a former student, and

3440:– "the South House reopening party" and several "South Houses" and "Trash cans need to be brought out from the North Houses to facilitate clean up." But not quite consistently capping houses: "the houses will be far nicer" and "should not cost the houses one penny", but "granted to both Houses". 2852:

how did you arrive at the opinion that the names North Houses and South Houses were "proper names"? Each of the "Named buildings" has very specific names so certainly proper nouns. I am still looking for the two buildings specifically named North Houses and South Houses. From all that I can find

1912:

The names of two buildings, the South Houses and North Houses, have been capitalized in this article since it was created in 2005. There have recently been discussions and edits proposing that these terms should be lowercase. The disagreement arises from whether these building names are proper

1872:

Discussion between editors was then over whether that is the case or not, which was done through the in-depth analysis of an extensive number of sources. Another point of contention that was raised was the potential confusion between the physical place and the student body, and how sources might

793:

Also, to be clear, the South Houses and North Houses are each structurally and architecturally a single building. Parts of each building are designated for individual student Houses, which are self-governance units with ~100 people each. They are used as proper names in sources in the same way

3085:

are capitalized in Knowledge (XXG)." Many of the sources he reports include lowercase or mixed variants, or use different terms such as with singular House, or use the terms in a way that are clearly not even about the building complexes as much as about the groups of houses. And most are not

2329:

The names are not descriptive names, in the sense of describing houses that are north or south of something, as confirmed by usage in the sources described above. Many proper names take an adjective-noun form. For example, "Grand Canyon" is a proper name, even though many other canyons may be

1096:

Now you're just making statements unsupported by sources. Nobody ever declared North Houses to be the official name of the complex? Nobody thinks of Chandler as part of the same building as the North Houses? And since terminology hadn't stabilized in the 1960s means it hasn't stabilized now?

4420:

Dicklyon states that "0% support capitalizing "North Houses" and/or "South Houses" as proper names." He omits that at the same time, 0% support that they are descriptive. This analysis would give the same results for any plural proper noun, such as Twin Towers. It is a useless argument for

4330: 3532:

Conclusion: While "North Houses" and "South Houses" have become the common terms, with more frequent capitalization, in the last 20 years or so, they still refer to the houses, not to single buildings. And they are not consistently capitalized, even in docs closely connected to Caltech. The

2439: 839:

I am not seeing that the criterion has been met. There certainly appears to be variability in capitalisation across the sources cited, even if they are not independent of the subject and in most cases, lack evidence of editorial oversight. Whether the terms are used in the same way as "Grand

745:

reflects the matter of independence of sources in determining capitalisation. It is consistent with policy and guidance. When sources (ie organisations) directly or closely tied to the subject can't get their "shit in one sock" as to whether they should capitalise, it is strong evidence that

4085:

Didn't you already agree that "Houses" is not a proper names, and that "North Houses" and "South Houses" are names of buildings only? If that's the case, then we need to discount many of those sources that clearly have a style of capitalizing things that are not proper names. But there's no

3633:

To be clear, if you want to capitalize "North Houses" and "South Houses", the only reason must be that these are the proper names of something. You've claimed that they are the names of buildings, and have counted lots of sources as supporting your claims. I've shown that that's nonsense.

3202:– "...restore and modernize Caltech’s South Houses, our design for the residence halls incorporates contemporary features while preserving the buildings’ historic fabric. The Institute’s undergraduate houses consist of four buildings..." – Clearly treating them as pural "buildings", not one. 1875:

Initial analysis in favor of the capitalization notes that many of the sources used in the articles under dispute capitalize "North and South Houses", although it admits that the majority of sources are related to the subject (written by a student government or students) and several of those

1645:

Here's what I mean. A good use of capitalizing non-proper nouns for emphasis would be, say, the original U.S. Constitution. That sort of usage was very common in English up until some point in the early 19th century I think, and universally fell out of favor afterwards. Literally the only

4636:

But the use of caps leads to the misimpression that these are proper names, which source usage generally contradicts. Caltech has no such official names; they do not appear on maps or in lists of buildings. I've shown that capitalizing "Houses" in various contexts has been common, but not

2341:

called houses that they host. When used to refer to the building, it's clearly a proper name, but the situation is less clear for the student groupings. Many but not all sources are clearly referring to the buildings, as they discuss the South/North Houses being constructed, renovated, or

2025:

states: "Knowledge (XXG) avoids unnecessary capitalization. In English, capitalization is primarily needed for proper names, acronyms, and for the first letter of a sentence. Knowledge (XXG) relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are

1752:. It contains sentences like "The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature." 4523: 2443: 3468:– Lots of lowercase houses, e.g. "other houses doubt it can", "multi-house events", etc. Then "South House Kitchens", "South Kitchen", "South Kitchens", a lot of proper names for this kitchen. Also "South House reconstruction" and "South House students". No "South Houses". No "North" 1876:

capitalize only "North" and "South", but not houses. A later rebuttal raised two issues: first is the lack of consistency in the sources, with words sometimes being capitalized and sometimes not, leading to a lack of reliability and confusion over whether that source is useful or not.

1880:

descriptive name used by sources related to the topic. Another point raised by those against capitalization was that, if a quantitative analysis took into account only sources that saw North and South Houses as proper names, the percentage of capitalization would decrease immensely.

3949:

says that capitalization is based on use in a "substantial majority" of sources, regardless of the reason why the sources use capitals. You're confusing this with the separate rule that Knowledge (XXG) capitalizes names if they are proper names. Note that this does not imply the

3794:

I would observe that is was once common to capitalise compass points (ie north and south) and that the change has occurred within my life-time. It would beg the question of how much that convention has affected the capitalisation of north and south in the matter at hand? Regards,

2698:

These complexes are not buildings, and have never had names. They have been called the old houses and the new houses, the south houses and the north houses, etc., but even these do not encompass the entire complex with the dining hall sharing the kitchen of the new/north houses.

1187:

to the extent that there is sufficient coverage in independent reliable sources. While I do not intent to pursue the matter of notability ATM, none of the sources cited in the articles are at sufficient arms-length to be considered independent. None, save perhaps the campus

2817:

articles, he conveniently ignores evidence again his hypothesis, such as use of "the student Houses" and "in each of the Houses" and "representatives from each House", where the caps have nothing to do with what he supposes to the proper name of a building or complex. Or

3873:

Very nice analysis of sources! It seems the consensus is not as strong as I initially thought. But one of your conclusions is that capitalized mentions are more frequent in the last two decades, so doesn't that mean that the consensus is clearly moving in that direction?

1586:

proper noun" or not. In English, words have not been "capitalised to distinguish or emphasize the particular noun phrase in running text or because they are seen to be important" for about two centuries now. In any case, I've laid out the evidence in the RfC below.

4169:, if you think that 80% is a "substantial majority". I don't find your analysis convincing that South/North Houses aren't being used as a proper name, but in any case MOS:CAPS doesn't even say that such a finding would overrule a substantial majority of sources. 2544:

defers to consistent capitalisation in a substantial majority of independent sources. The sources here are largely not independent. In such sources, we would expect more capitalisation and furthermore, those sources are not applying it consistently. Regards,

478:, "proper names, which can be either single words or phrases, are typically capitalized". It also meets the "substantial majority of independent, reliable sources" bar. So I'm going to revert the capitalization changes for "South Houses" and "North Houses". 1801:

I do a lot of editing on U.S. policy topics, and all reliable sources I use very consistently capitalize titles of government positions in all cases. I believe that should overcome the prescription of a style guide, but the discussion has not yet been had.

3942:, or Twin Towers, or Fay Apartments, for example. Yes, when they say something like "once the North Houses are rebuilt", North Houses can refer to either the building collectively or each of the individual parts. It doesn't resolve the issue either way. 3721:

A. – No. "The 'South Houses' are comprised of four individual undergraduate student houses interconnected by party walls, arcades, and open courtyards. The Houses were designed..." – obviously capped reference to distinct things, not a proper name of a

3209:– "The houses were in a state of disrepair...", "The 'South Houses' are comprised of four individual undergraduate student houses interconnected by party walls, arcades, and open courtyards. The Houses were designed..." – plural houses, not a building. 3295:– "the North Houses (Lloyd, Page, Ruddock) and Avery only have doubles" (you need to open all the questions to search; one place only). Clearly about the houses, not the building complex. No south or South. Lots of intermixed houses and Houses. 4817:"Hovse" is nonsense, even if it was popular among undergraduates. That's not the kind of thing that Knowledge (XXG) needs to propagate.' Undergrads call things "frats", too, but WP would refer to them as "fraternities". This is not Slangpedia. 3342:

I analyzed a selection of issues of the student newspaper The California Tech. To get a representative sample, I viewed the first, tenth, and twentieth issue in every volume going back 20 years (to the beginning of 2001), that were available on

2202:

511:

Some of those do treat South/North Houses as proper names. But those are mostly not independent of the topic, being Caltech reports and such, and the capping is not consistent. The first one you cite doesn't mention South or North at all. The

2496:

Buildings that are named have their names capitalised because they are official names or trade names. The problem here is that there does not appear to be an official name. One can also see the degree of capitalisation for such buildings (eg

1279:. When used to refer to the building, it's clearly a proper name, but I can see that when used to refer to student groupings, one can make arguments either way. Looking at the sources above, the vast majority of them are clearly referring to 4337:. If it is clearly a proper name, as claimed, then it should be able to reach a similar degree (percentage) of conformity. While your analysis shows about 80% conformity for the data sets used. The analysis is not showing 80% conformity in 3475:– "the new South Houses and their renovated kitchen" (note: not "its renovated kitchen" which would sense of "South Houses" was the name of a building); and "South House Reopening Party" (did a party really rate a proper name?). No "North". 3461:– (Yes, another April Fools edition, which Antony counts in his favor). Fake headline: "North Houses declared historic, slums". Several instances of lowercase house, such as "make sure you understand them, and your house understands them" 2133:

is "substantial majority", which does not require absolute consistency. The existence of a few outliers does not disprove that a substantial majority of sources capitalize a term. It is important to analyze sources systematically to avoid

3061:- A majority of sources appear to be referring to them by using capitalization, which means so should Knowledge (XXG). All other arguments about how students living in the campus "feel" about one building or another seem to be superfluous. 1510:

and numerous related articles. Even the appeal to "it's a particular thing" can't be made there, yet they prevail; but why? Hard to say. Still, about 95% of cap discussions over the last decade have reaffirmed the consensus expressed at

1486:

and go from there. I don't know if it's more strange that someone ever thought the above assertion would convince anyone, it never has, or that people continue to repeat it after so many discussions have found otherwise, most recently for

1418:

Dicklyon is known for meticulous research on stylistic matters. The matter here is very simple: MOSCAPS says, in effect, that an overwhelming majority of reliable sources must capitalise (in this case they don't) if we are to follow suit.

4138:

reliable sources, where the data is consistent with the context. Because your data is not from independent sources and the data used is not all consistent with the context of the question, it is not even showing an 80% level of usage in

750:

per MOS:CAPS. On the actual issue of capitalising the "houses" (north or south), what I am seeing is a is a group of houses to the north and to the south (of some reference point). These name terms are purely descriptive. They are not

2260:

from Caltech), some editors expressed a preference for sources less closely associated with the larger Caltech community. I searched ProQuest, Newspapers.com, and Google Books for examples, but could only find five examples. These two

1686:, the "Constitution of the United States" is arguably the title of a work. Whether one considers the title of a work a proper name or not, it is a near unversal convention to write such titles in sentence case. From the WP article ( 1242:, which he claims I'm ignoring. Also, I agree with your analysis that when these terms are used, they are not in reference to the building complexes per se, but to the groups of distinct institutions and their separate buildings. 3330:– capitalizes North but not houses as Antony noted. "our houses and residences should provide a supportive culture" and "students assigned to the North houses and Avery" (about assignment to houses, not to the building complex). 4125:

that are the subject of this RfC. Context is everything but you now appear to be arguing that context has no bearing on the issue. Without context, we would never capitalise "plumber" even when it is being used as a surname

2342:

demolished, or to physical rooms in the buildings. To avoid confusion, this article and the related articles listed below have been edited so that the terms "South Houses" and "North Houses" can only refer to the buildings.

3594: 2823:

with proper name "North Houses". He's only seeing what he wants to see. As a former resident of one of the north houses, I assure you we never thought of ourselves as being in the same building with Page boys and Rudds.

1363:

are (might be) variously referred to such as "the South Undergraduate Houses" or such other that I have seen. Such example noun phrases are specific in their referent and are descriptive in their nature. They are not

3141:

Going through the sources Antony-22 linked above in support of his proposition, starting by copy-pasting his paragraphs full of links (in "small"), following each paragraph by detailed list of what the links support:

2522:

However, in most instances in your preferred version of the article, the two terms are used in a way that would be synonymous with "south or north fraternities or colleges". Here is a telling quote from the article:

192: 187: 1051:

part of the same building, as your quote says. It's an E-shaped building rather than a rectangular one, but still a connected one. The Caltech server seems to be down at the moment, so I'll take a look tomorrow.

3316:– "the North House renovations", "If the North Houses are renovated", "house dinners in the north and south houses are fairly bad"; no suggestion that "North Houses" is the name of a building; mixed capitalization. 1075:

same building, or as part of the north houses in any case, in spite of their connectedness. The quote said it's "attached to the same building as the north houses ", not part of the same building as the houses.

3714:

A. – No. "the seven undergraduate Houses" and "the South Hovse (Blacker, Dabney, Fleming & Ricketts) and the North Houses (Lloyd, Page and Ruddock)" makes it clear that the houses are distinct; not naming a

3408:– "all of the South House Residents", "the four South Houses", "The South Houses are not just dorms". Plenty of caps (even Residents), but no support for the idea that "South Houses" is the name of a building. 2278:

that uses lowercase for both words. It is often the case that for basic factual and style issues, sources that are closer to the subject are actually more reliable, and their use is explicitly endorsed by the

3302:– "Caltech's unique House system", "The South Hovses are the oldest", "The North Houses were built", but otherwise all lowercase house. No suggestion of North Houses or South Houses being names of buildings. 3429:– "For the first time since construction circa 1932, the South Houses", "brought so many students from so many houses together", "the South Houses will rise anew, a shining sanctum for..." (which actually 1708: 1393:

is also a term descriptive of the process. There are similar considerations. To where the burden lies, MOS:CAPS clearly establishes this: caps must be necessary (as determined by the criterion therein).

3517:– "The extensive renovation and restoration of the south Houses and the tear down and reconstruction of a set of 4 north Houses constitutes" – No suggestion of proper name status, clearly not one building 2918: 904:, which I'd written some years ago, and I found that the substantial majority of sources, most of them technically independent, used capitalized South/North Houses. I also analyzed a set of sources that 4838:

Concur with SMcandlish in concurring with Diklyon. Mention of undergrad humor - with confirmation from sources - is perfectly acceptable, but anointing their playful nonsense as "fact" is ridiculous.

4194:"South Houses", can they? Or "North House members" for North Houses as a building? And again, this RFC is about the premise that these are proper names of buildings, which they very clearly are not. 2778:

Well, I do contest that sloppy analysis. Just looking a few docs he cites in favor of his proper name proposition (the ones he says I provided in which he found support for both words capitalized),

2350:

Around 80% of sources in systematic analyses use capitals, and only one source in the entire corpus consistently used lowercase for both words; this fulfills the "substantial majority" criterion of

1617:

article here (the house system), "house" has been capitalised even when used alone. Isn't that a case of capitalisation for distinction of emphasis? So I don't know where you got the notion that:

4724:

by 2006 according to the Wayback Machine. Is this just a weird styling of a few people who aren't that familiar with the Roman alphabet? Are there sources that talk about it or actually use it?

3999: 3995: 2787:

use North Houses and South Houses at some places, but also "in the north and south houses" and "North House renovations" in which the singular is used. Not much support of consistency there. And

4486:

There are plenty of sources that use lowercase "houses" but uppercase "South/North Houses". You listed them yourself above! Why imply that they don't exist when you've examined them yourself?

3725:

A. – No. "pending North House renovations" – is "North House" to be taken as yet another proper name for someting? "once the North Houses are rebuilt" is clearly plural houses, not a thing.

2256:

Nearly all of the above sources are independent of Caltech as an organization. Since most of them were written by students or by the student government (which is a separate incorporated

583:

I think you're mixing up style issues with facts and reliability; quite different things. And as I mentioned, there are other Caltech sources that don't cap north and south houses (e.g.

3213: 3162: 2158: 1619:

In English, words have not been "capitalised to distinguish or emphasize the particular noun phrase in running text or because they are seen to be important" for about two centuries now.

554:

The first five links I posted are independent. Publications by students are not self-published by Caltech itself as an organization, and also note that ASCIT is a separate incorporated

449: 2488:

You would argue that pluralisation does not create an exception to being a proper noun. True, but if a proper noun takes a plural form, it is not then singularised. In your preferred

2853:

these names refer to individual houses that are collectively in these areas (may be considered a specific campus?) and not to a specific house called "North Houses" or South Houses".

4127: 558:

organization than Caltech itself. In general, for very basic facts like this, "official" sources and those close to the subject are the most reliable, and are explicitly allowed by

3858:

Your support of capping above was before I analyzed the claimed evidence in support. Please review and say where you stand in light of what's actually in Antony's evidence links.

3711:

A. – No. "the North Houses each developed" makes it clear that North Houses is not the name of a thing; and "some suites in the south and north Houses" shows it's not consistent.

2783:

support of proper name status, and the earlier sentences makes it clear that these are descriptions of complexes, but generally though of or referred to as buildings. Similarly,

967:

Also, by your logic, the building named "North Houses" would also include the Chandler Dining Hall (or whatever they've renamed it just now). A more common view is like it says

3401:– "as the three North Houses combined" is clearly talking about the houses, not treating North Houses as the name of a building. Similarly "South House student parking spaces". 284:) you have correctly edited the page according to Wiki policy. Just because CalTech follows its own capitalization scheme doesn't mean we conform to it here on Knowledge (XXG). 516:

uses both uppercase and lowercase south and north, so is not even internally consistent. They also cap "Rotation", because it's an important concept in the house system (see

2467:

You would draw an analogy to the North and South Towers of the old World Trade Center, asserting that these are "proper names" - an assumption not established. This n-gram,

1888:. As MOS:CAPS does not specify what is the level of capitalization a word needs in reliable sources to be capitalized on Knowledge (XXG), this discretion falls upon editors. 1283:, as they discuss the South/North being constructed, renovated, or demolished, or to physical rooms in the buildings. There are a few cases where they are used to refer to 2520:

To avoid confusion, this article and the related articles listed below have been edited so that the terms "South Houses" and "North Houses" can only refer to the buildings.

386:

South Houses and North Houses are proper nouns and not descriptive; they're the formal names of the two buildings. I'd have to take some time to find RS supporting this.

3938:

Your analysis is not valid. You're entirely basing it off of the fact that South/North Houses are plural, but we know that there are many proper nouns that are plural.

3415:– "North House rennovation/reconstruction", "murals of the houses", "the South House rennovations", "your new House-mates", etc. No North Houses or South Houses as such. 4064:

only requires us to look at how many of the sources capitalize, and all these questions about what's a building and what's not is irrelevant to the actual guidelines.

1970: 729:. While policy trumps guideline (such as the MOS) it only does so to the extent of any inconsistency. Independence of sources is addressed in policy and reflected in 634: 1929: 1295: 1097:

Again, "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority" of sources doesn't mean absolute consistency in all sources, so you're clearly not interested in following

4867: 3063:

After reading the continuous discussion I am no longer so convinced that the sources cited use the upper script to denote proper names. Disregard my previous vote.

758:. Authors might capitalise many terms that are descriptive in nature - frequently to distinguish the phrase in running text. This does not make same a proper name. 1549:

Right on. Point out that in 5% of discussions (or make your own estimate), WP can't follow its own guidelines. Similarly for US and some other big orgs, I guess.

1294:

to make clear that the terms "South/North Houses" refer only to buildings, which is a clear usage of a proper name. I easily can do the same with this article and

840:

Canyon" or the Twin Towers is another issue. In those two cases, we would observe almost universal capitalisation in independent reliable sources. In one of the

4641:

we should not cap what not consistently capped in sources. Antony's 85% estimate is rubbish, and the premise that these are names of buildings is also rubbish.

1978: 146: 3496:– "seven houses", "undergraduate houses", etc., but one "walk from the South Houses to Avery" (wouldn't use "the" if "South Houses" was the name of a building). 2475:). Even for things that are so well known and widely written about, we are certainly not seeing the same degree of capitalisation we see for the Grand Canyon. 4259:, you could be replying to either DL or myself but the last thing that I want to do is to misrepresent another editor; however, in your analysis, you stated: 4405:'s analysis until now because I found it more confusing than convincing, but it seems to have led to some late changes in !votes, so I'll respond to it now. 3968:

doesn't really have a name because it used to be called the Sears Tower. The South/North Houses have had those names far longer than the Willis Tower has.

3810:

my allegiance today is more to Knowledge (XXG) style than to Caltech style, so I'd agree. He seems to be stuck on Caltech style still, as a younger Techer.

2764:: Per rebuttal (validly contested) that as individually named "houses" there is not enough independent evidence to support the terms denote proper nouns. -- 1781:

The constitution would capitalised nearly all nouns and there has been a progressive change toward less capitalisation for some time since that was written.

4925: 4325:. I would agree that the requirement is a high bar - higher than 80%. We do see 90% or better conformity with capitalisation for proper names such as the 3320: 3270: 2779: 2191: 1183:: Considering the articles, their sourcing and searches I have conducted in course of the discussion, I am not reasonably satisfied that the articles meet 352: 136: 4134:

does not give an absolute figure. To my mind, the phrasing of the guideline requires a (very) high degree of conformity in sources (more like 90%) - in

3503:– "entrance doors to the North houses, Marks, and Braun", "the magnetic cardswipes in the South houses and Avery house", "the North house basement", etc. 1974: 4720:

Why this weird "Hovse" thing? I never heard of that in my years at Caltech, as student or faculty. It showed up in Knowledge (XXG) in 2005, and at

4615:

The insertion of new subsections on analysis, sources, etc. is confusing as far as continued comments are concerned, so let the comments continue...

4272:

As DL has said, you appear to have already acknowledged that we would not capitalise "houses" when it is being used synonymously with "fraternities".

3750:

B. – No. "The South Hovses are the oldest", "The North Houses were built" – plural verbs suggest reference to distinct houses, but unified buildings.

4930: 3681:

is written and edited by Techers, mostly residents of the houses, and the other Caltech documents are also from the Caltech insider specialist POV.

950: 4165:

I stand by my analysis that ~80% of a representative sample of sources capitalize South/North Houses. That is sufficient to meet the criterion of

3454:– "people wearing house stoles". And a heading "North House AC:" whatever that refers to; certainly doesn't count as support as Antony counted it. 1654:'s much stricter requirements. It's not the case the writers of the sources are capitalizing nouns in a non-grammatical way simply for emphasis. 1650:

engineers. Capitalizing Houses is consistent with this rule of English grammar, but it's not actually done consistently enough in the sources for

112: 3510:– "recommended that the South houses be gutted and completely renovated and the North houses be demolished" – No suggestion of proper name status 1749: 852:

phrase or term-of-art, rather than as a proper name. In that same link, the architect describes the south houses as "the buildings" (plural).

4515:

Originally, the terms north and south were not used, but new and old were. Capitalization of "Student Houses" goes back at least to 1959 (see

2759:

per the second paragraph of the "malformed RFC" and what seems to be a fairly well-researched analysis (unless validly contested) of Antony–22.

596: 3779:

are pretty mixed, too, as discussed above. Even if all them supported the proposition that these are proper names, that would not be enough.

3327: 3273: 2310:. It is not unusual for a single building to have a plural proper name, especially for residences; some examples from a quick search include 2194: 328: 3747:

B. – No. "the North Houses (Lloyd, Page, Ruddock) and Avery only have doubles" is clearly about the three distinct north houses, not a thing.

968: 790:

requires a "substantial majority of independent, reliable sources" for capitalization. That criterion has been met per the discussion above.

2354:. Additionally, many sources use the terms to refer to the physical buildings which are clearly proper names, fulfilling that criterion of 1864:

will be the main guideline being used by participants to justify their opinion. As mentioned in the RfC, MOS:CAPS quite clearly states that

4920: 1536: 1492: 3718:

A. – No. "The Institute’s undergraduate houses consist of four buildings..." in reference to what they call the South Houses; not a thing.

3257:

to show examples of the word "houses" being lowercase when not prefixed by North or South. The following capitalize South/North Houses:

2975: 2971: 2303: 2299: 2178:

to show examples of the word "houses" being lowercase when not prefixed by North or South. The following capitalize South/North Houses:

799: 795: 4794:

Regardless of its usage, this is not a case of one letter being substituted for another but a case of how the letter is being rendered.

3150: 2146: 1925: 1291: 1159: 901: 437: 252: 2979: 2307: 803: 97: 58: 3964:

You are right here. We care about whether current usage is consistent, not usages from far in the past. One wouldn't argue that the

1933: 4828: 3125: 1687: 1471: 3235: 2298:

Each of the South and North Houses are actually a single building. Here are photos of the South Houses building for illustration:

1843: 1435:

And to be fair, Cinderella157 and Tony1 are also known for meticulous care in style matters. I think the consensus is clear here.

4637:

consistent, since at least "Student Houses" in 1959. Caltech loves their houses, but that doesn't make these proper names. Per

4006:

was also obviously named thus, and is consistently capped in sources (but not in enough books to use n-grams, like your houses).

1460:

guidelines for a reason; just follow them and stop trying to find "but my case is magically special" loopholes. There aren't any.

4451:

Antony, when you analyze "the very first example listed", you misrepresent the content and what I said about it, which was this:

3533:

premise of this RFC ("The names of two buildings...") is wrong, and the data estimates in support of it are greatly exaggerated.

2639:

Thanks for the note. I moved analysis to a !vote and tweaked the language of the invitations. Do these satisfy your concerns?

4020:

Re the Great Pyramid: You got me on that one! It doesn't affect the underlying point, though. There are many other examples.

1997:

it will require a consensus to change them to lowercase, and a no consensus finding will result in the capitals being retained.

1646:

contemporary example I can think of is Donald Trump's tweets, which are widely considered to be an aberration from proper usage.

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proper names. They do not rise even close to the hurdle to be capitalised under the criterion set by WP. Not everything has a

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Also, please read the above discussion carefully before proceeding, as I have repeated several points that were made earlier.

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A. – No. "restoration of the south Houses and the tear down and reconstruction of a set of 4 north Houses" speaks for itself.

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review the prior discussion linked above for tons of evidence about how the houses and complexes are referred to in sources.

1158:

The OP was initiated as a central discussion after a reverts to generally correct over-capitalisation in this article and at

407:

No rush. If you find that these are consistently capitalized in independent reliable sources, let us know. But they're not.

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prefer the sources cite that are clearly lack independence and are at least as questionable on the matter of reliability.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Knowledge (XXG)."

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is incorrect. It's been on my list to put together an RfC to change that, but it hasn't been near the top of that list.

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What's going on here is that, for a small and well-defined group of particular referents, the group name is a proper noun.

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I don't see that you have actually said that at all but moreover I have no idea what you might mean when yo are saying

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shows that caps are definitely nowhere close to consistent there, and probably not in any corpus you want to choose.

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other terms of their specialist interest? If you find any, count them as support for the proper name hypothesis.

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that finds those and some other campus pubs, showing pretty near 50% capping of "house" after "North" or "north".

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has "South Hovses" (just horsing around, I guess). His percentages are pretty bogus, not supporting consistency.

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tells us absolutely nothing, and provides no support for overturning a substantial majority of reliable sources.

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cases while ignoring much larger numbers of capitalized sources. I performed the following systematic analyses:

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be capitalized even though they are not the proper names of anything we can identify", or something like that.

1287:, using language like "the four South Houses" or referring to the planning of events, but these seem to be rare. 946: 201: 3458: 3433:

suggest treatment as one thing, unlike everything else we've seen), and "when South House Techers had to fight"

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It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited

4426: 4121:, the "premise" of the RfC is contained in the first two paragraphs of the RfC's thread. Specifically, it is 3081:, which makes it clear what we mean by avoiding unnecessary capitalization: "only words and phrases that are 1540: 1496: 1106: 39: 4800: 4346: 4148: 3829: 3800: 3705:– Look at which ones support "North Houses" and/or "South Houses" as possibly the proper name of something. 3405: 3350: 3048: 3040: 2602: 2550: 2210: 2035: 1792: 1732: 1707:

written? "My dogs" is not a proper noun nor is "the two cars outside". Not everybody writes "Twin Towers" (

1625: 1403: 1223: 1171: 857: 763: 361: 289: 225:, we only cap what's pretty consistently capped in reliable sources. If you look at book searches such as 3398: 3348: 2938: 2606: 2573: 2208: 1787:, it is fairly closely aligned with the Chicago Manual of Style. Are you going to get them to change too? 1184: 559: 4721: 3292: 3258: 2792: 2257: 2179: 331: 3206: 3160: 2280: 2272: 2156: 2061: 1994: 1784: 841: 689: 447: 4825: 3991: 3879: 3122: 3068: 2315: 1468: 111:

on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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I agree with your assessment that that doesn't make it a proper name, and doesn't meet the criteria of

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creates a burden to show that caps are necessary. A close must consider if this burden has been met.

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them these things. Still capped houses, or north and south by the 1974 Big T (I only sampled a few).

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I recently noted above that I consider "House" and "house" to both be grammatically proper usages ...

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count a collection of apples of different varieties and then claim that the total you get are all

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as the terms "South Houses" and "North Houses" were originally capitalized in this article, under

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A. – No. No appearance of "North Houses" or "South Houses". Just "the South House laundry room".

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The terms "South Houses" and "North Houses" are the proper names of the buildings they refer to.

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In the 1973 Big T we have "the North Complex of student houses". For those who don't know, the

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I'm not sure why a usage that, as you say, fell out of usage nearly 50 years ago is relevant.

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described as grand. Also compare with the North and South Towers of the old World Trade Center.

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only to determine whether there is a consensus among !voters and which way it goes. There are

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As a discussion that revolves around the capitalization of words, it's quite unavoidable that

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point now. Please do not make "per talk page" edits declaring consensus when there is none.

513: 445: 327:, with an example link. But there are numerous examples where they don't cap it, too, e.g.: 89: 3451: 3362: 2222: 726: 4879: 4820: 4396: 4300:

I don't think it's necessary or warranted to exclude sources from my analysis based on that.

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proper names of buildings, and that sources prove that their capitalization is optional, a

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No, even if Antony-22's sloppy survey reporting were true, the criterion is not that. See

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Caltech maps that Dicklyon linked above clearly show that each is one connected building.

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contained obvious factual errors and are thus not useful as reliable sources. This source

742: 517: 358: 4002:, even though it is seeing more capitalization in the last 20 years. Good analogy. The 3951: 3914:

In light of this deeper look, please consider modifying your "Upper Case" response above.

1425: 346: 255:. You guys should say why or whether you think that capitalization here fits WP's style. 4739: 4422: 1395: 722: 664: 4295:

can only be determined within a context. I have said above, that context is everything.

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argument to mount in the context - ie when applied to selection from a "biased" source.

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sources cited, make it clear that capitalization is optional and mixed, not necessary.

3656: 3598: 3482:– "when the South House residents will be moved". No "Houses", but plenty of "houses". 2988: 2640: 2567: 2454:). There are significant differences between the two cases. It is not a sound analogy. 2409: 2384: 2359: 2135: 2065: 1998: 1948: 1803: 1759: 1683: 1655: 1609: 1588: 1356: 1299: 1194: 1114: 1102: 1052: 913: 894: 807: 693: 688:

And please don't continually try to reinstate changes that do not have consensus. See

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And gdbg.org is a self-published site from 2008, not something that can be considered

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In light of this more detailed look at the sources, do you not agree these these are

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nouns, and whether the sources using capitals constitute a "substantial majority".

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There has been some confusion because South/North Houses could each refer to either

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issue that uses both the capitalized and uncapitalized forms in the same article.

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consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources

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anyway, as they are proper names. Named buildings generally do have proper names.

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There are widely varying views on what is "necessary capitalisation". That is why

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issue that uses both the capitalized and uncapitalized forms in the same article.

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consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources

3043:) 05:29, 17 January 2022 (UTC) PS: Not every "thing" has to have a "proper name". 2525:

Dabney House, as part of the single building that makes up the four "South Houses"

73: 52: 2882:: I am still confused. I overlooked one comment so someone, please point out the 2060:, and none of them apply here, so this comment is pretty explicitly asking for a 1320: 741:

also gives guidance on how to determine this - in a way consistent with policy.

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No, the premise of this RfC is that ~80% constitutes a "significant majority".

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Note that I had provided these just to refute a bogus claim: "DjTj81 wrote that

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has no use of North or South, and mentions "the off-campus houses" without caps.

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Where is it made clear that those capped terms refer to the buildings? E.g. at

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Perhaps we can agree on the following. I was able with some light copyedits to

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Task Force on Undergraduate Residence Life Initiatives (TURLI) final report

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Use lower case, since sources are not consistent in capitalizing. We have

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Talk:House_system_at_the_California_Institute_of_Technology#Capitalization

1271:

I see the confusion here, that, South/North Houses could refer to either

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comment much more, so as to stay out of the way of future participants.

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I do not think that I nor DL have misrepresented you when I have stated:

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Also, I read the essay you linked to, and I do not find it compelling.

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These sources use South/North Houses as a proper name, and according to

4795: 2383:, which has the benefit of actually quoting every usage linked above. 890: 4590: 3756:

B. – No. "house dinners in the north and south houses are fairly bad"

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capitalize the words when speaking of the former but not the latter.

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The summer (or Summer) of our youth. another thing that has change.

3309:– "student house computers" and "IMSS house rep"; no south or north. 440:. The following independent sources capitalize South/North Houses: 933:

There are not many issues of the Tech that mention these phrases.

4593:(later a Lloydie), crucified and welcoming his substitute editor. 2516:

When used to refer to the building, it's clearly a proper name ...

848:

is introduce in quotation marks, indicating it is being used as a

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reliable sources, where the data is consistent with the context.

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reliable sources, where the data is consistent with the context.

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several years ago. The following capitalize South/North Houses:

2149:

several years ago. The following capitalize South/North Houses:

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inappropriate, so a different description was used. Nobody ever

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not the kind of thing that Knowledge (XXG) needs to propagate.

941:. But it's better to look more widely; your sources are mostly 4318:

I have neither said nor thought any such thing. When you say:

3945:

Additionally, you are also confusing the guidelines involved.

3234:– Nothing on that page but links to PDFs. Clicking through to 584: 4335:

When used to refer to the building, it's clearly a proper name

3585:

The purpose of this analysis was to show that, as required by

3114:. Cinderella157 and DickLyon already said what I would have. 2660:

Thank you for modifying the notifications to be more neutral.

2058:

very limited circumstances under which !votes can be discarded

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The names of two buildings, the South Houses and North Houses

2138:, which arises when an editor presents a few non-capitalized 302:

Thanks, Christiano. But it's always Caltech; never CalTech.

3759:

B. – No. "the North and South undergraduate house complexes"

635:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Current

3328:

Recommendations on how to revamp the rotation process, 2018

3321:

Broad Center Network Services – Trouble Shooting & Tips

3200:

Caltech South Houses Rehabilitation doc at pfeifferpartners

2601:

I also have to note that the invitations to this RfC, e.g.

2795:

don't use these terms at all (as far as I can find). And

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This is listed as a B-class article but according to the

4460:– Is just a TOC page; no sentences. Clicking through to 4458:

ASCIT History of Undergraduate Self-Governance at Caltech

4312:

That is sufficient to meet the criterion of MOS:CAPS, if

3180:– Is just a TOC page; no sentences. Clicking through to 3178:

ASCIT History of Undergraduate Self-Governance at Caltech

1715:, we do not write: "Presidents of the United States" but 3188: 3156: 2152: 443: 101:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the 4277: 4158: 3888:"Moving in that direction" is not the criterion in the 3251: 2861:

You stated two options 1)- "could each refer to either

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for me to contest it in this article, but that's moot.

3772:"North Houses" and/or "South Houses" as proper names. 3741:"North Houses" and/or "South Houses" as proper names. 3376:

These capitalized North/South or House, but not both:

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the term 'House' is capitalized in Caltech documents''

2605:, are not fully neutral either. Please be cautious of 2236:

These capitalized North/South or House, but not both:

1725:

Houses is consistent with this rule of English grammar

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78% of this group of sources capitalizes both words.

2252:

78% of this group of sources capitalizes both words.

3314:

Student Experience Conference: Follow-up Report 2008

3214:

Report by the 2008 Student Experience Trip Committee

3169:capitalizes Houses but uses lowercase south/north. 2741:

and the question is presented in a very biased way.

2471:

casts this assertion into doubt (or this n-gram for

2165:capitalizes Houses but uses lowercase south/north. 1971:

Knowledge (XXG) talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters

1886:"north and south houses" should follow sentence case 1884:

capitalizing the words on Knowledge (XXG), as such,

1842:

The following discussion is an archived record of a

733:. There is no inconsistency in the requirements of 325:

the term "House" is capitalized in Caltech documents

270:

This is a clear case of unnecessary capitalization.

4758:should be considered reliable for these purposes. 3597:, and so should not be invoked as authoritative.) 1852:

No further edits should be made to this discussion.

3753:B. – No. No capped North, South, House, or Houses 3636:Knowledge (XXG) avoids unnecessary capitalization. 3207:Caltech South Undergraduate Houses doc at wje.com 2492:of the article (03:29, 15 January 2022), we see, 1979:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Higher education 599:with "North houses"; again with "South houses"; 2380: 1930:Campus of the California Institute of Technology 1296:Campus of the California Institute of Technology 637:to see if we can get more analysis or opinions. 221:I did some case fixing, but got reverted. Per 3091:fair interpretation of the data, but rather a 4889:I agree, this is clearly a C-class article. 3998:, while the plural great pyramids of Giza is 2739:Malformed RFC since "retain" is not the issue 1975:Knowledge (XXG) talk:WikiProject Architecture 1855:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 8: 4429:argument expressed in many bytes of prose. 4208:Maybe you should start a new RFC on "Should 1582:this distinction of whether something is a " 4316:think that 80% is a "substantial majority". 3149:I went through the sources I used to write 2145:I went through the sources I used to write 1723:. One can then say, that not capitalising 1482:A laughably false assertion, just start at 436:I went through the sources I used to write 4690:I filed a close request about a week ago. 4660:The RfC tag auto-expired a few days ago. 4286:I consider "House" and "house" to both be 3595:does not have consensus from the community 2970:Here are the photos again I linked above: 1368:proper nouns. They might be perceived to 900:I systematically analyzed the sources for 451:. The Caltech Catalog also uses capitals 47: 3277:83% of this group capitalizes both words. 3171:86% of this group capitalizes both words. 2198:83% of this group capitalizes both words. 2167:86% of this group capitalizes both words. 4157:You are misrepresenting my comments. I 3347:. These capitalize South/North Houses: 2207:. These capitalize South/North Houses: 1750:the actual text of the U.S. Constitution 1398:establishes a similar burden. Regards, 3651:You're trying to argue to overturn the 2494:The South House complex opened in 1931. 49: 19: 4871: 4356:entities that these are the names of. 4334: 4319: 4311: 4299: 4285: 4281: 4271: 4262: 4122: 3634:Therefore, we should not capitalize. 2524: 2519: 2515: 2493: 1865: 1780: 1724: 1720: 1716: 1700: 1691: 1618: 945:independent of Caltech, and a broader 889:We need to go back to the language of 121:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject California 3994:is a great example of a proper name, 3762:B. – No. "the North houses and Avery" 2276:the only source in this entire corpus 587:caps North and South but not houses; 461:even uses the "South Hovses" variant. 458:for South/North Houses, and this one 227:"north houses" "south houses" caltech 7: 2518:This is not establish. Continuing: 95:This article is within the scope of 3275:capitalizes North but not houses. 3250:I went through a series of sources 3151:History of the Caltech house system 2196:capitalizes North but not houses. 2171:I went through a series of sources 2147:History of the Caltech house system 2099: 2052:has been met; it is the job of the 2048:to determine whether the burden of 1926:History of the Caltech house system 1870:are capitalized in Knowledge (XXG). 1292:History of the Caltech House system 1285:the collection of student groupings 1277:the collection of student groupings 1218:, much the same applies. Regards, 1160:History of the Caltech House system 902:History of the Caltech house system 897:that makes the argument fallacious. 438:History of the Caltech house system 253:History of the Caltech House system 38:It is of interest to the following 4926:Low-importance California articles 2921:. Complexes of connected houses. 2572:Please adjust the RfC to abide by 2381:Dicklyon's opposing analysis below 1934:California Institute of Technology 1835:RfC on capitalization of buildings 14: 4799:the actual word, which is houses. 4421:setting aside a finding based on 3189:Blacker Hovse History at gdbg.org 3086:independent of the subject (e.g. 1688:Constitution of the United States 4707:The discussion above is closed. 3300:Undergrad Residential Experience 2339:the collection of student groups 1866:only words and phrases that are 167: 82: 72: 51: 20: 4931:WikiProject California articles 4401:I hadn't directly responded to 1939:Please !vote whether to retain 1717:presidents of the United States 141:This article has been rated as 124:Template:WikiProject California 3996:consistently capped in sources 3236:the main 2001 Final Report PDF 2473:World Trade Center twin towers 2469:World Trade Center north tower 2379:As a courtesy, I'm linking to 524:and you see mostly lowercase. 1: 4848:22:25, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 4818: 4809:03:26, 16 November 2021 (UTC) 4790:05:52, 12 November 2021 (UTC) 4775:02:09, 12 November 2021 (UTC) 4752:03:44, 10 November 2021 (UTC) 4734:03:33, 10 November 2021 (UTC) 4700:06:28, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 4686:06:04, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 4651:01:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 4632:22:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 4503:05:48, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 4482:07:57, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 4446:05:10, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 4323:'s much stricter requirements 3115: 3019:06:52, 11 February 2022 (UTC) 2813:Similarly in his analysis of 2425:05:11, 10 February 2022 (UTC) 2405: 2081:06:05, 17 February 2022 (UTC) 1703:Where is that version of the 1559:04:53, 22 November 2021 (UTC) 1545:04:49, 22 November 2021 (UTC) 1525:04:03, 22 November 2021 (UTC) 1501:03:23, 22 November 2021 (UTC) 1477:20:15, 21 November 2021 (UTC) 1461: 1445:01:30, 20 November 2021 (UTC) 1431:00:15, 20 November 2021 (UTC) 1408:12:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC) 1342:20:19, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1315:19:42, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1252:18:12, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1228:12:23, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1176:10:39, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1130:06:58, 19 November 2021 (UTC) 1085:19:29, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 1068:06:44, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 1022:04:43, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 1000:04:33, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 981:04:19, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 963:04:07, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 929:03:43, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 862:00:08, 18 November 2021 (UTC) 823:22:52, 17 November 2021 (UTC) 768:12:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC) 709:07:09, 16 November 2021 (UTC) 684:02:49, 16 November 2021 (UTC) 647:05:46, 15 November 2021 (UTC) 618:23:16, 14 November 2021 (UTC) 579:08:27, 14 November 2021 (UTC) 534:04:46, 14 November 2021 (UTC) 495:23:36, 13 November 2021 (UTC) 417:05:53, 12 November 2021 (UTC) 403:02:19, 12 November 2021 (UTC) 115:and see a list of open tasks. 4906:19:17, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 4884:20:04, 16 January 2022 (UTC) 4834:18:57, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 4603:03:57, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 4573:03:54, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 4558:03:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 4536:23:30, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 4366:04:53, 28 January 2022 (UTC) 4351:08:13, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 4293:grammatically proper usages 4226:05:08, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 4204:05:04, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 4189:04:13, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 4153:03:06, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 4096:01:18, 25 January 2022 (UTC) 4081:19:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 4056:19:35, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 4037:05:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 4016:05:48, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 3985:05:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 3924:19:35, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 3903:23:55, 23 January 2022 (UTC) 3884:18:39, 23 January 2022 (UTC) 3868:17:43, 23 January 2022 (UTC) 3834:05:27, 19 January 2022 (UTC) 3820:04:31, 19 January 2022 (UTC) 3805:04:25, 19 January 2022 (UTC) 3789:04:20, 19 January 2022 (UTC) 3691:16:59, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 3672:04:35, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 3647:04:09, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 3629:03:51, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 3614:03:44, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 3580:23:11, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 3543:19:41, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 3131:18:53, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 3105:17:09, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 3073:14:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 3053:13:19, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 3004:03:15, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 2951:04:31, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 2931:04:24, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 2911:03:35, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 2896:22:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC) 2875:22:10, 16 January 2022 (UTC) 2833:04:09, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 2809:03:58, 17 January 2022 (UTC) 2774:22:10, 16 January 2022 (UTC) 2751:05:13, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2731:05:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2709:05:14, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2694:03:53, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2670:05:29, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2656:04:24, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2628:04:11, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2595:03:51, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2555:03:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC) 2400:05:35, 18 January 2022 (UTC) 2375:03:42, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2112:05:04, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 2040:11:39, 26 January 2022 (UTC) 2014:03:42, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 1964:03:42, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 1819:07:22, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 1797:07:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 1775:06:57, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 1737:06:52, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 1696:came into force in 1789 ... 1671:05:42, 24 January 2022 (UTC) 1630:01:03, 19 January 2022 (UTC) 1604:03:42, 15 January 2022 (UTC) 1008:is the undergrad yearbook. 717:An argument on the policies 633:I listed this discussion at 381:05:10, 9 November 2021 (UTC) 312:04:30, 9 November 2021 (UTC) 298:03:31, 9 November 2021 (UTC) 265:01:15, 9 November 2021 (UTC) 251:who reverted me here and at 4921:C-Class California articles 4288:grammatically proper usages 4276:You would say (referencing 3137:Analyzing the cited sources 4947: 3593:is an essay, and one that 2127:Substantial majority test. 1904:04:16, 16 March 2022 (UTC) 1484:Talk:Fermat's Last Theorem 1101:. Your arguments are all 147:project's importance scale 4862:Citation and other issues 3307:Vulnerability scan policy 2680:The above is true, but I 1748:I wasn't clear. I meant 1530:have guidelines. Yes the 663:(and the closely related 140: 67: 46: 4813:I concur with Dicklyon: 4709:Please do not modify it. 2982:. Each photo is of the 1849:Please do not modify it. 1389:name is a proper name. 1154:Clarifying present issue 1109:. I think we're at the 522:independent book sources 3770:0% support capitalizing 3739:0% support capitalizing 3221:2021–22 Caltech Catalog 2266:use capitals; two more 514:SURF report it links to 321:his revert edit summary 4585:has a nice cartoon of 4462:Full Report (59 pages) 4291:. A determination of 3940:Great Pyramids of Giza 3225:here's the catalog PDF 3193:Definitions page there 3182:Full Report (59 pages) 2258:501(c)(3) organization 1535:follow its own rules. 231:"house system" caltech 98:WikiProject California 28:This article is rated 3992:Great Pyramid of Giza 2844:: I am just curious! 2499:the Chrysler Building 2316:Ponte City Apartments 2044:It is the job of the 1721:secretairies of state 844:given here, the term 603:with "north Houses", 595:with "north houses"; 591:with "south houses"; 32:on Knowledge (XXG)'s 4611:Comments (continued) 4159:recently noted above 3524:– "the south houses" 2762:Revised to lowercase 1377:descriptive and not 454:, while this source 323:, DjTj81 wrote that 4579:that 1959 issue of 3223:– page not found – 2880:Additional comments 2757:keep as capitalized 1844:request for comment 1532:World Heritage Site 1508:World Heritage Site 127:California articles 4511:Old and new houses 4425:, and is simply a 3568:Caltech specialist 2324:Akoya Condominiums 2129:The key phrase in 746:capitalisation is 288:is clear on that. 34:content assessment 3345:CaltechCampusPubs 2625: 2613: 2592: 2580: 2514:You would state: 2312:Sheats Apartments 2293:Proper name test. 2205:CaltechCampusPubs 2121:Analysis follows. 2119:Retain uppercase. 1982: 1902: 1897: 1894:non-admin closure 1779:To quote myself: 1235:quite a few books 939:Similar for south 286:WP:Capitalization 214: 213: 161: 160: 157: 156: 153: 152: 90:California portal 4938: 4832: 4816: 4667: 4400: 3963: 3937: 3913: 3857: 3703:Let's summarize. 3561: 3522:April Fools 2019 3459:April Fools 2009 3129: 2969: 2936:See official map 2860: 2851: 2682:support the caps 2638: 2626: 2623: 2622: 2620: 2611: 2593: 2590: 2589: 2587: 2578: 2571: 2320:360 Condominiums 2096:Prior discussion 1987:Procedural note: 1968: 1901: 1891: 1851: 1747: 1644: 1580: 1475: 1428: 1332:a proper name. 1270: 1209:a property of a 1095: 935:Here is a search 888: 786: 435: 250: 209: 171: 163: 129: 128: 125: 122: 119: 92: 87: 86: 85: 76: 69: 68: 63: 55: 48: 31: 25: 24: 16: 4946: 4945: 4941: 4940: 4939: 4937: 4936: 4935: 4911: 4910: 4903: 4864: 4814: 4801:Cristiano Tomás 4772: 4718: 4713: 4712: 4683: 4661: 4613: 4555: 4513: 4500: 4443: 4390: 4388: 4305:Jonathan apples 4186: 4078: 4034: 3982: 3957: 3931: 3907: 3843: 3669: 3611: 3547: 3394: 3279: 3173: 3139: 3001: 2963: 2916:See aerial view 2854: 2845: 2653: 2632: 2616: 2614: 2610: 2583: 2581: 2577: 2565: 2422: 2397: 2372: 2078: 2011: 1983: 1961: 1920:, "In English, 1906: 1847: 1837: 1816: 1772: 1741: 1668: 1638: 1601: 1570: 1426: 1312: 1260: 1156: 1127: 1089: 1065: 926: 882: 820: 780: 706: 681: 576: 492: 429: 400: 290:Cristiano Tomás 240: 219: 210: 204: 176: 126: 123: 120: 117: 116: 88: 83: 81: 61: 29: 12: 11: 5: 4944: 4942: 4934: 4933: 4928: 4923: 4913: 4912: 4909: 4908: 4899: 4863: 4860: 4859: 4858: 4857: 4856: 4855: 4854: 4853: 4852: 4851: 4850: 4768: 4722:Blacker's site 4717: 4714: 4706: 4705: 4704: 4703: 4702: 4679: 4655: 4654: 4653: 4612: 4609: 4608: 4607: 4606: 4605: 4575: 4551: 4512: 4509: 4508: 4507: 4506: 4505: 4496: 4469: 4468: 4467: 4466: 4465: 4439: 4427:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 4387: 4384: 4383: 4382: 4381: 4380: 4379: 4378: 4377: 4376: 4375: 4374: 4373: 4372: 4371: 4370: 4369: 4368: 4333:. You state: 4310:When you say: 4308: 4298:To quote you: 4296: 4274: 4268: 4267: 4266: 4241: 4240: 4239: 4238: 4237: 4236: 4235: 4234: 4233: 4232: 4231: 4230: 4229: 4228: 4206: 4182: 4170: 4163: 4107: 4106: 4105: 4104: 4103: 4102: 4101: 4100: 4099: 4098: 4074: 4030: 3978: 3929: 3928: 3927: 3926: 3905: 3841: 3840: 3839: 3838: 3837: 3836: 3775:Articles from 3766: 3765: 3764: 3763: 3760: 3757: 3754: 3751: 3748: 3735: 3734: 3733: 3732: 3729: 3726: 3723: 3719: 3716: 3712: 3700: 3699: 3698: 3697: 3696: 3695: 3694: 3693: 3665: 3631: 3607: 3530: 3529: 3528: 3527: 3526: 3525: 3518: 3511: 3504: 3497: 3490: 3483: 3476: 3469: 3462: 3455: 3448: 3441: 3434: 3423: 3416: 3409: 3402: 3341: 3336: 3335: 3334: 3333: 3332: 3331: 3324: 3317: 3310: 3303: 3296: 3288: 3287: 3249: 3244: 3243: 3242: 3241: 3240: 3239: 3228: 3217: 3210: 3203: 3196: 3185: 3148: 3138: 3135: 3134: 3133: 3109: 3108: 3107: 3084: 3055: 3028: 3027: 3026: 3025: 3024: 3023: 3022: 3021: 2997: 2956: 2955: 2954: 2953: 2933: 2919:in Google maps 2913: 2877: 2838: 2837: 2836: 2835: 2811: 2753: 2734: 2733: 2714: 2713: 2712: 2711: 2677: 2676: 2675: 2674: 2673: 2672: 2649: 2598: 2597: 2562: 2561: 2560: 2559: 2558: 2557: 2533: 2532: 2531: 2530: 2529: 2528: 2507: 2506: 2505: 2504: 2503: 2502: 2481: 2480: 2479: 2478: 2477: 2476: 2460: 2459: 2458: 2457: 2456: 2455: 2430: 2429: 2428: 2427: 2418: 2402: 2393: 2368: 2345: 2344: 2343: 2331: 2327: 2290: 2289: 2288: 2254: 2200: 2169: 2136:selection bias 2123: 2122: 2115: 2114: 2088: 2087: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2083: 2074: 2017: 2016: 2007: 1967: 1957: 1909: 1907: 1859: 1858: 1857: 1838: 1836: 1833: 1832: 1831: 1830: 1829: 1828: 1827: 1826: 1825: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1821: 1812: 1768: 1753: 1709:see this ngram 1676: 1675: 1674: 1673: 1664: 1647: 1633: 1632: 1597: 1568: 1567: 1566: 1565: 1564: 1563: 1562: 1561: 1537:196.192.179.38 1493:196.192.179.38 1450: 1449: 1448: 1447: 1415: 1414: 1413: 1412: 1411: 1410: 1349: 1348: 1347: 1346: 1345: 1344: 1308: 1288: 1255: 1254: 1195:Selection bias 1155: 1152: 1151: 1150: 1149: 1148: 1147: 1146: 1145: 1144: 1143: 1142: 1141: 1140: 1139: 1138: 1137: 1136: 1135: 1134: 1133: 1132: 1123: 1107:WP:IDONTLIKEIT 1103:selection bias 1061: 1035: 1034: 1033: 1032: 1031: 1030: 1029: 1028: 1027: 1026: 1025: 1024: 1002: 983: 965: 922: 910: 898: 895:selection bias 871: 870: 869: 868: 867: 866: 865: 864: 846:"South Houses" 830: 829: 828: 827: 826: 825: 816: 791: 773: 772: 771: 770: 712: 711: 702: 686: 677: 657: 631: 630: 629: 628: 627: 626: 625: 624: 623: 622: 621: 620: 597:studentaffairs 572: 543: 542: 541: 540: 539: 538: 537: 536: 502: 501: 500: 499: 498: 497: 488: 467: 466: 465: 464: 463: 462: 422: 421: 420: 419: 396: 317: 316: 315: 314: 218: 217:Capitalization 215: 212: 211: 206: 202: 200: 197: 196: 190: 182: 181: 178: 177: 172: 166: 159: 158: 155: 154: 151: 150: 143:Low-importance 139: 133: 132: 130: 113:the discussion 94: 93: 77: 65: 64: 62:Low‑importance 56: 44: 43: 37: 26: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 4943: 4932: 4929: 4927: 4924: 4922: 4919: 4918: 4916: 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