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many to be superior. Despite being primarily an
American project, its renown is definitely international. It would not be widely accepted by the Catholic church, and as for liberal Christianity, well, lets just say that there is much less concern within liberal Christianity for scholarly Bible translation to begin with. As for the ESV, that one definitely has a more international appeal, and is undoubtedly the fastest growing English translation, particularly within evangelical Christianity. It is being embraced by churches far and wide at a much more rapid rate than the NASB or the NIV. As for the NLT, this one probably has more mass appeal as a non-literal translation, and thus its adoption in academic circles has been slower, but still makes a strong showing. As for "interdenominationally", all three would encompass a pretty wide swath of denominations and movements, with the NASB being strongest in places like fundamentalist Christianity (those that are not KJV-only, obviously) and others with a high regard for inerrancy and literal translations. The ESV has seen its strongest support with the reformed churches, particularly within the neo-calvinist movements, spearheaded by organizations such as the Gospel Coalition and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals.
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Ipso facto, he is notable. Hoehner was a biblical scholar who wrote several publications which are currently used in graduate level Bible courses. Ipso facto, he is notable. Hoehner was a biblical scholar who was both a department chair and a distinguished professor at DTS. Ipso facto, he is notable. DTS is one of the largest evangelical seminaries in the world. Ipso facto, it is notable. DTS is a seminary that has graduated dozens, if not hundreds, of men who have shaped today's evangelical landscape. Ipso facto, it is notable. DTS is a seminary peppered with faculty whose scholarly work is referenced by thousands of students globally. Ipso facto, it is notable. Bible-researcher.com has been used as a third party source on more than 100 wikipedia articles, as it has long been acknowledged as a reliable source of information on
English translations of the Bible. Can this information be verified through web archive searches of individual publishers? Sure. I'll do it just to satisfy you. But I am inclined to believe that once I've jumped through that hoop, you will simply add some other layer of wikilawyering to this quest. Why?
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Probably not as significant for his work on the NCV or the NET, but they are worth mentioning. Re: DTS notability, the wikipedia article lists more than 20 notable alumni or faculty who are extremely well known within evangelical circles. You are right to say that
Hoehner is not equal to the seminary, but both are notable. And they don't have to be notable to you. In fact, you've already claimed ignorance in the past about the institution. That's OK. Hopefully there are a million other wikipedia articles about which you are also ignorant. That doesn't make them non-notable. The point about bible-researcher.com being used in so many other places is not a case of other crap existing. It's a case of you being selective for some reason about singling out this one professor. You failed to answer my questions. Why? Why is it so important to you to try to prove his non-notability?
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1096:, articles are meant to "be based on reliable, published secondary sources" in order to provide "interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims" about the topic. Lack of any such interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims, is why I described the article as a "bland and bloodless resume" -- not
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Nothing you haven't asserted here before. However, no other editors seem to be willing to side with you, so the question still remains. If no other comments are added, feel free to take this to AfD after the thirty days of RfC. However, I doubt consensus will have changed in the two years since the
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Oi. So many questions. OK, the Bible translations... all three being
English translations of the Bible, their impact is definitely going to be felt more in English-speaking countries. NASB is probably the most critically acclaimed and widely acknowledged translation since the KJV, and considered by
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The DTS page lists only two Bibles that he worked as a translator on (funny that they failed to mention all the others claimed by the article), of which only one is "major" (and he is only one of three, and one of two for the NT, from DTS working on this Bible). He is also on the
Lockman/NASB list of
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Generally, more experimental and applied subjects tend to have higher publication and citation rates than more theoretical ones. Publication and citation rates in humanities are generally slower than in sciences. Also, in sciences most of new original research is published in journals and conference
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You must be joking. Although clearly you are not. DTS is one of the largest institution accredited by the
Association of Theological Schools, with close to 2000 total enrollment, more than 1000 full-time. The seminary publishes Bibliotheca Sacra, one of the most often cited scholarly journals in
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I'm not sure what your level of understanding of Bible translation is, but the NASB, ESV, and NLT are all very widely used and highly regarded translations. Being one of the translators tapped for those projects would indicate a level of expertise in the field that would set one apart as notable.
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I'm not sure why you want to raise the bar so ridiculously high on this particular individual. It's not like this article has anything controversial. What is at stake for you? Hoehner was a biblical scholar selected to be on the translation team for several major
English versions of the Bible.
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that
Hoehner falls squarely into that guideline's caveat: "It is possible for an academic to be notable according to this standard, and yet not be an appropriate topic for coverage in Knowledge (XXG) because of a lack of reliable, independent sources on the subject." Currently this article has
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Again, I think this is not an issue of notability, but rather of your ignorance. I will grant you that many of these articles need much better sourcing. I will also grant you that
Hoehner is not the household name that some of these are, like Ryrie, Swindoll, Walvoord, Jeremiah, and Hodges.
654:"Re: DTS notability, the wikipedia article lists more than 20 notable alumni or faculty who are extremely well known within evangelical circles." Two erroneous links (a footballer and a dab-page). The remaining links were mostly to thinly/un-sourced articles, often of doubtful notability.
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This question now seems moot, since there have been multiple secondary sources added to the article, including books, journal articles, and websites. If there are no further objections, I will remove that tag, but leave the one asking for additional material about his influences.
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is "an anniversary or memorial journal volume or a
Festschrift dedicated to a particular person" -- as the subtitle of that work makes no mention of it, nor does the Google Books blurb mention it. If this is a Festschrift, then this should be mentioned (with citation) in the
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proceedings whereas in humanities book publications tend to play a larger role. The meaning of "substantial number of publications" and "high citation rates" is to be interpreted in line with the interpretations used by major research institutions in the awarding of tenure.
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this article fairly clearly meets the "It is possible for an academic to be notable according to this standard, and yet not be an appropriate topic for coverage in Knowledge (XXG) because of a lack of reliable, independent sources on the subject" criteria for
290:(i) I would question whether DTS is "a major institution of higher education and research." It is a fairly small, sectarian seminary. (ii) You have no excuse for removing the primary-source-tag, as it seems all sources are closely associated with Hoehner.
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by wikipedia policy? They give changeable snapshots of information, and in Worldcat's case the information also changes by your default location (is there a 'worldwide' location that you can feed in? I've yet to find an option above country that it will
898:? What does the article state about his take on Biblical scholarship and translation? Currently it reads more like a CV+thumbnail-bio than an encyclopeadic article. It renders him largely interchangeable with any generic Biblical scholar/translator.
363:, "It is possible for an academic to be notable according to this standard, and yet not be an appropriate topic for coverage in Knowledge (XXG) because of a lack of reliable, independent sources on the subject." And you have not provided
607:"DTS is a seminary peppered with faculty whose scholarly work is referenced by thousands of students globally." Likewise unproven. And anyway proves little (the same thing could probably be said of thousands of tertiary institutions).
277:, "The person holds or has held a named chair appointment or "Distinguished Professor" appointment at a major institution of higher education and research." This is supported by the sources that I've added to the article.
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biblical studies. Its faculty and alumni comprise a veritable who's who of evangelical Christianity in the United States. There is no question as to whether DTS fits the criteria, and Hoehner is undeniable notable.
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as normal practice. Their inclusion would appear to be an attempt to demonstrate through highly unorthodox means a semblance of notability that cannot, as yet, be demonstrated in more orthodox (and policy-compliant)
1019:: "It is possible for an academic to be notable according to this standard, and yet not be an appropriate topic for coverage in Knowledge (XXG) because of a lack of reliable, independent sources on the subject."
819:-- as the standard is not merely that the institution is 'notable', but that it is "major" -- which to me would denote an institution with a wide, broad-based reputation. But regardless of that argument it is
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If the only thing distinguishing him from my "any random Biblical scholar" is the adjective "distinguished", then we can simply make this article a soft-redirect, with the following text "Distinguished
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254:. Taking DGG's Worldcat numbers, this is approximately one citation for every 10 copies of his books held in the covered libraries. This does not appear to be indicative of any particular influence
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I've just run 'Harzing's Publish or Perish' on Hoehner. In a career that extends back to the early 1960s, he has only 124 citations to his work (less than 3 per year), with about 1/3 each being for
1028:-- stating little more than 'he was born, he went to university, he taught at university, he wrote Bible commentaries, some of which garnered some praise, he helped translate Bibles, he died' --
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651:"...the NASB, ESV, and NLT are all very widely used and highly regarded translations." Internationally and interdenominationally? Or mainly among conservative American Evangelicals?
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It is you who is joking. The fact that DTS is a 'big fish in a small pond' does not make it "major". 2000 is very small for a tertiary institution. It may (or may not) be a major
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I would assume that there are hundreds of biblical scholars whose works are "currently used in graduate level Bible courses." Writing texts is one of the things that scholars do.
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For such a supposedly-influential institution, very little seems to have been written about it (it's mentioned, at all, in only 65 books -- my own alma mater gets 137,000 hits).
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criterion #5 - "The person holds or has held a named chair appointment or "Distinguished Professor" appointment at a major institution of higher education and research."
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For biblical scholars, more than 300 hits on a simple Google scholar search, with more than 150 citations of his work certainly weighs in favor of his notability.
400:(published by Christian publisher Zondervan), the "stereotype" of DTS is "an anti-intellectual stronghold of fundamentalism and dispensational premillennialism."
805:, despite your lack of understanding of the significance of DTS. I urge you to seek some other opinions before casting your aspersions on the institution.
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am a random biblical scholar. Most of what is written in this article distinguishes him from me (thus the title "distinguished"). The question stands.
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Why are we giving this information at all? Worldcat hits aren't a normal part of bibliographies in wikipedia bios -- and certainly aren't mentioned in
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seminary faculty page, JETS memorial, Festschrift, listed as member of translation teams, SBL memorial, and local newspaper feature obituary
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The RfC isn't about whether the article needs improvement. The question at hand is whether the current sources satisfy the requirements of
597:"DTS is a seminary that has graduated dozens, if not hundreds, of men who have shaped today's evangelical landscape." Unproven. The article
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Lack of such material is clearly relevant to that guideline. Lack of this material is also the likely reason that this article is such a
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example #3 - "...publication of an anniversary or memorial journal volume or a Festschrift dedicated to a particular person" (such as
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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I lack the stamina, or the access to a bot, to tackle the hundreds of instances of bible-researcher.com being used in violation of
661:. Such unpromising beginnings has led me to be skeptical about his notability (a skepticism strengthened by the next point...)
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789:. (That's 20.) This list contains people whom most evangelicals would be familiar. People like the president of
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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offers no evidence that it is "a major institution of higher education and research", and you have offered none.
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does not address this article. It matters not your opinion about whether this article is bland or bloodless (
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https://web.archive.org/web/20110116000419/http://www.esv.org/esv/scholarship/translation-review-scholars/
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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with
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Footnote #4 is merely a caveat on criterion #1, and should not be read independently of that criterion.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120105004704/http://bible.org/article/preface-net-bible-first-edition
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I answered your question -- citing relevant material from the guideline you based your question on.
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
604:"Ipso facto, he is notable." No. Harold Hoehner≠DTS & "today's evangelical landscape"≠World.
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Now, with regard to the notability of DTS alumni and faculty, I was speaking specifically of
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translators -- but only one of a large number on the list, and then only as an updater.
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Interpreting the New Testament Text: Introduction to the Art and Science of Exegesis
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Interpreting the New Testament Text: Introduction to the Art and Science of Exegesis
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An Uncommon Union: Dallas Theological Seminary and American Evangelicalism
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that makes Hoehner's suitability for an article highly questionable, per
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I got involved with this article when I discovered it, and tagged it, as
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rendering him largely indistinguishable from any random Biblical scholar
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is not independent, as Hoehner was a frequent writer for that journal).
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140:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
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Here here. Let's put this question to rest. I'm sorry I asked.
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http://www.esv.org/esv/scholarship/translation-review-scholars/
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As this article is essentially a reconstruction of his resume,
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article demonstrates no such prominence. Further, even under
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Unknown-importance biography (science and academia) articles
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bible-researcher.com = setting the bar ridiculously low (a
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Does the current list of references meet the standard for
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http://bible.org/article/preface-net-bible-first-edition
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not having even a SINGLE secondary/non-affiliated source
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444:(he translated their Bible) aren't independent either.
352:, that's not necessarily saying much. In any case the
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Start-Class biography (science and academia) articles
999:. The sources in question were very clearly stated:
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Say rather "no other editors seem to be willing to"
1244:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
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965:. I would also point out that "no other editors"
801:However, I think he clearly meets the spirit of
1230:This message was posted before February 2018.
1094:WP:NOR#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources
1112:", without losing any real descriptive power.
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273:I've removed the notability tag, since per
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30:on 29 January 2009 (UTC). The result of
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848:RfC: is this article reliably sourced?
199:I'd like to raise two issues on this:
150:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Biography
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396:Hmmm -- according to the blurb for
349:The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind
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1057:does address that concern.)
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599:Dallas Theological Seminary
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68:WikiProjects
35:
1017:WP:ACADEMIC
997:WP:ACADEMIC
928:WP:ACADEMIC
854:WP:ACADEMIC
755:Ray Stedman
743:Jim Rayburn
731:Hal Lindsey
664:No, its is
58:Start-class
36:speedy keep
1306:Categories
1293:Report bug
975:WP:SILENCE
882:Questions:
677:WP:SELFPUB
550:WP:SELFPUB
344:very minor
1276:this tool
1269:this tool
1087:WP:RESUME
1051:WP:RESUME
1026:WP:RESUME
924:exclusion
701:Responses
367:(and no,
252:Ephesians
147:Biography
87:Biography
1282:Cheers.—
919:Comment:
817:arguable
515:article.
340:seminary
208:accept).
28:deletion
1196:my edit
1160:Ἀλήθεια
807:Ἀλήθεια
803:WP:PROF
670:WP:PROF
642:Ἀλήθεια
574:Ἀλήθεια
494:Ἀλήθεια
485:WP:PROF
475:WP:PROF
469:WP:PROF
358:WP:PROF
319:Ἀλήθεια
279:Ἀλήθεια
275:WP:PROF
1102:WP:AGF
926:under
785:, and
585:WP:SPS
546:WP:SPS
250:&
217:WP:LOW
64:scale.
1169:Hokie
1146:Stalk
1142:Hrafn
1133:Stalk
1129:Hrafn
1063:Hokie
1040:Stalk
1036:Hrafn
1005:Hokie
985:Stalk
981:Hrafn
951:Hokie
938:Stalk
934:Hrafn
906:Stalk
902:Hrafn
869:Hokie
836:Stalk
832:Hrafn
690:Stalk
686:Hrafn
628:Stalk
624:Hrafn
560:Stalk
556:Hrafn
529:Stalk
525:Hrafn
452:Stalk
448:Hrafn
426:Stalk
422:Hrafn
408:Stalk
404:Hrafn
379:Stalk
375:Hrafn
298:Stalk
294:Hrafn
262:Stalk
258:Hrafn
231:Stalk
227:Hrafn
220:ways.
205:WP:RS
1092:Per
973:See
369:JETS
136:and
34:was
1250:RfC
1220:to
1210:to
1172:RNB
1066:RNB
1008:RNB
954:RNB
886:not
872:RNB
215:or
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1258:}}
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1291:(
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1122:.
1059:I
679:.
672:.
180:.
144:.
70::
38:.
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