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1352::I'm sorry but this does not make sense at all and I do not understand what you are trying to express. It is understood and generally accepted that some Oceanian groups (like Papuans and Melanesians) have a small amount of Denisovan ancestry (about 3-6%), but, as I have tried to explain, that has nothing to do with the topic of this article â which is Herto man â (and, in addition, to assume or speculate in any article that the cranial morphology of Oceanians has anything to do with their very small amounts of Denisovan ancestry, if such a hypothesis has not been proposed by any scientific research/reliable source which one can cite, is indeed
2726:"Herto Man can be considered an "AMH" rather than a transitional morph, therefore making the subspecies distinction idaltu unjustified." Looking at the long paragraph at the bottom of page 12 to the top of page 13 in Lubsen & Corruccini, I'm not sure this is correct. They say, "our analyses do not support or refute the statement by White et al. (2003) that this specimen is different enough to be classified as a new subspecies" and go on to explore some scenarios by which it might be considered a subspecies and some by which it might not. So I think you're making a stronger statement that is supported by the source.
2348:"In the original description paper ... (that is, a stage in a chronospecies)". That's a big sentence to swallow, and by the time you get to "...have rejected this", it's no longer clear what "this" refers to. Maybe break into two, something along the lines of "...new subspecies as "H. s. idaltu" (Afar: Idaltu; "elder"). This subspecies was described as a transitional morph...", and then in the next sentence, "Subsequent researchers have rejected this", replace "this" with something more specific: "...have rejected the classification" (or whatever).
1356:/original research). But, again (more to the point), Denisovans were a Eurasian hominin (who lived in parts of Asia and possibly parts of Oceania and later bred with Homo sapiens when H. sapiens arrived there) and this Denisovans had nothing to do with Herto man â who was an early type of Homo sapiens who lived in Africa and is considered a likely ancestor (and/or close relative) of all modern humans/H. sapiens groups, not only those in Oceania â , so I'm afraid I do not see the relevance of any of what you have written to this page.
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1320:: Again, there is no reason to bring Denisovans into this, and there is no particular reason to believe (nor speculate nor imply, especially in an edit) that the possible cranial similarities between Oceanians/Melanesians and Herto have anything to do with Denisovans at all (as mentioned, Oceanians/Melanesians are only about 3-6% Denisovan; Oceanians/Melanesians are Homo s. sapiens). So again, this addition does not belong in the article.
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separate lineage that diverged in Asia and never lived in Africa.). The cranial similarities (between
Oceanians and Herto/Idaltu) could easily be due to things such as convergent evolution and/or the retention of ancestral/early H. sapiens traits in Oceanians (and anyway, there is currently no evidence of/research on, as far as I know, suggesting Denisovan influence on the cranial morphology of Oceanians).
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saturates the media of the modern world). This parenthetical is confusing. does "across the globe" refer to the Earth or the skull? Very sloppy. The inclusion of this in the sentence can be taken to be critical of the claim that the skull morphology is outside of any likely Homo sapiens sapiens variation. Frankly, I don't understand it. I think it should be removed (or its meaning made clear).
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2236:"Herto Man refers to the 160,000 to 154,000 year old human remains". This may be excessively nit-picky, but "human remains" is ambiguous as to whether it's singular or plural. Was this a single person, or multiple people? You explain a few sentences later that it was 12 or more, but it would be nice if there was a way to avoid the initial ambiguity.
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2305:"H. sapiens" I'm not familiar with standard practice for species names, but my first thought was to wonder if all (non-expert) readers would connect that "H. sapiens" (and later, "H. s. idaltu") is the same as "Homo sapiens" mentioned earlier without that being explained. If that's how it's always done, then no problem.
2374:"end-morphology and beginning-morphology", again, this may just be my unfamiliarity with standard usage, but this is jarring because "end" and "beginning" are not the same part of speech. Does "end-morphology and start-morphology" work? Same comment applies to similar usage later in the article.
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WHAT does "...(although modern human skulls do differ across the globe)." MEAN in this context? It must be obvious to anyone who has access to modern media and has thought about it that that modern human skulls do differ between geographical ethnic groups (since the evidence in the form of images
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In sum, critical reâevaluation and reâanalysis of the available evidence fails to support the placement of BOUâVPâ16/1 into its own subspecies. Instead, the early modern human remains from Herto, Ethiopia, should be considered part of a larger
Pleistocene H. sapiens population that also includes
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I believe it would be original research yes (very much so). And it would make little sense since Herto man is a type/branch of Homo sapiens (a.k.a. in the sense of anatomically modern humans) and has nothing to do with
Denisovans, or no more than any other Homo sapiens/AMH do (Denisovans are a
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published in {doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2019.02.035} to B) other maps of marking
Melanesia (north is up in our times) and maybe you could replicate my 'oryginal research'. If you would try and you could too what is then 'oryginal'. . Looking on map do you see Denisovan descendants in 3 billion
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If the species as it is classified no longer exists, then it is extinct. Though it's genetic legacy may continue in other animals, those are separate but related species. Now, sometimes entire families go extinct, but they're not "more" extinct--they're just multiple extinct species.
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I don't think this is technically a GA criteria, but could you update the "Human emergence: Perspectives from Herto, Afar Rift, Ethiopia" to include all the authors, with full first names? "et al" can be used by a particular template for display, but the full data should be in the
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So what it is that made them say H. s. idaltu is a subspecies anyways besides the "archaic features"? In fact, I'd like to know what these archaic features are since I suspect many of them are still present in the wide range of what can be considered H. s. sapiens. --Anonymous
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and you did that it differ from itself. Isn't true that Herto is logically synonymous for Idalu ? ANd for the link rigt; i didnt suspect u can change subject of sentence so i linked it only back. (now i know i must double look on your edits to not be decived by common sense)
1494:: "Herto" refers to Idaltu (they are the same hominin/the same thing, as the lede explains). Omo is a different but closely related human, and also from Ethiopia but from another site (and both are types of H. sapiens/anatomically modern human/possibly early H. s. sapiens).
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The way the species is laid out in the infobox is pretty confusing. I think(?) its supposed to denote that there's debate over whether Herto Man is homo sapien sapien or homo sapien idaltu, but it reads as though they're different names for the same thing.
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Please don't revert the edits and engage here in the talk page. Also don't describe other users' contributions as racist and biased when they are clearly not and don't accuse me of vandalizing the article when I am clearly not, otherwise I will report you.
1071:"The many morphological features shared by the Herto crania and AMHS, to the exclusion of penecontemporaneous Neanderthals, provide additional fossil data excluding Neanderthals from a significant contribution to the ancestry of modern humans..."
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this is interesting because perhaps exactly over there in Paua is maximum of
Denisovan inheritance. Puting a sentence mentionig this with Jacob &a recent papaer would be OKÂ ? Or this inference will be considered as 'original research'Â ?
1572:(where K and L are now abstract but may be substitutet as K alredy in article and quouted on top of this chapter . L may be {doi.org/10.1016/j.cell.2019.02.035}doi:10.1016/j.jhevol.2015.06.008 . (mnemonic: k cranium; l linked DNA; G geo)
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To give a little background, which might help explain some of my comments, I'm scientifically literate, but not an expert in anthropology or evolutionary history of humans. As I read through this, I'm trying to calibrate my comments to
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I'm starting this review. My plan is to do two major passes through the article, first for prose, the second to verify the references. In general, all my comments will be suggestions which you can accept or reject as you see fit. --
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Unfortunately, I don't have access to many of the sources in full text (i.e. Nature), so I'm just spot-checking what I can find. There's certainly no question about the general reliability of any of the sources.
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How are these guys another subspecies when I see people (like
Aboriginies) that look almost the same way? The rounded part of the skull in the back, the brow ridge up front, they are shared by many people today.
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2462:"In a simultaneously published paper...". Simultaneous with what? I think you're referring all the way back to "the original description paper" mentioned in the lead section, but that's not clear.
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1450:: I undid your edit because you (for some reason) had edited the section to say "Omo" when the sources/citations and context (and most of the article itself) were talking about Herto, not Omo.
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If it is a subspecies with a gene pole that was common with Homo sapiens, can we then claim that this subspecies is extinct? Rather it would be disolved, obsoleted, or reevolved into us. Said:
397:-related topics and create a standardized, informative, comprehensive and easy-to-use resource on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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That name is mentioned in the lead, but it's almost never used except by the people who came up with the name. It's also more consistent with our other human subspecies articles, like
2488:"... just barely outside the umbrella of what is considered ...", unless that's a direct quote from the paper, delete "the umbrella of". It doesn't add anything other than word count.
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The articles says predating
Neanderthals in the introduction but the timeline shows the opposite. Also the timeline does not contain H. sapiens sapiens, which is a bit of an omission?
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2566:"The name comes from the local Afar language idĂ ltu "elder". " The first time (in the lead), you punctuate this as "idaltu; "elder"" (i.e. with a semi-colon). Be consistent.
2514:"..., beyond the range of variation for any present-day". I think you're missing a word, "..., AND beyond the range..."? Actually, another word, "... any present-day HUMAN"?
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Reyes-Centeno, H.; Hubbe, M; Hanihara, T.; Stringer, C.; Harvati, K. (2015), "Testing modern human out-of-Africa dispersal models and implications for modern human origins",
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Don't use "colwidth=20em". Let the software lay things out in the default style. What looks good on your device may be totally weird on another device (web, mobile, etc).
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If you "I do not understand what you are trying to express" do you comment on my text or our your misunderstanding. Maybe i move your as flooding & not on subject?
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Lubsen & Corruccini refer to "Skhul V", which is referred to as "Skhul 5" in this article. Is there a reason to not use the nomenclature from the original source?
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Shouldnât this be under the title of homo sapien idaltu as that is the scientific name. Or at least have at the very beginning âHerto man aka homo sapien idaltuâŠâ
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HOW does a subspecies have ANY feature "not typical" of the species??? Shouldn't this be:"their morphology has many archaic features not typical of H. sapiens
2261:, Yeah, that's a good question. Possibly, "...refers to the collection of 160,000...", but now that I come back to it, I think it's fine the way it is. --
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is debated, so it's better to use the more neutral "Herto Man" instead. It'd also be more consistent with our other articles of a similar scope, such as
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2405:"The first fossils", this sounds like the first fossils of any kind. How about "The first herto man fossils", or "The first H. s. idaltu fossils", etc?
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1. The lede makes no mention of the (currently Jul 11, 2014) published work indicating that Idaltu may be the direct ancestor to modern H.S.Sap.
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I'm assuming this means that idaltu has archaic features that
Neanderthal doesn't have, making idaltu our direct ancestor and not Neanderthal?
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I noted there is some to and fro on the status of this taxon. Please expand on the classification as extinct here, a citation would be ideal.
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1202:"A later study found that Herto man and his contemporaries were cranially similar to Oceanians, with Northern Melenesians being the closest"
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This seems like a good place to stop. My next pass will be looking in depth at the references, but I may not get to that for a day or two.
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A later study found that Herto man and his contemporaries were cranially similar to
Oceanians, with Northern Melenesians being the closest.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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McCall, ÊșExamining the
Emergence of the Still Bay and Howiesons Poort Industries in South Africa Using Behavioral Ecological ModelsÊș
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poeoples? There on the green or deep pink areas living peoples who can claim most faithful very old ancestry (prvovite prvi ljudi).
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So you know you changed from '"different but closely related"+"also from Ethiopia" to more ambiguous and tautological over-group.
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Assuming art true and it would be "OR". In which field of scientific pursuits would be this "oryginlal research"? Perhaps '
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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It is better to leave the "early" out of the link, since it links to Homo sapiens (not to early H. sapiens in particular)
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You are right, there is not evidence of H. erectus in Australia. The maximum range of H. erectus was china. --Anonymous
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OL we can get maybe explanationfor expanding comparison to mammals. So why it is better to compare Idalu ideally to
820:-related subjects on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
2592:"In another simultaneously published paper," So, we've got a total of three papers that came out at the same time?
2330:, I was just wondering if a non-technical reader would understand the abbreviations. But, it's not a big deal. --
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2. The Morphology section states:"their morphology has many archaic features not typical of H. sapiens..."
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after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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today) This would (or not) be conclusion the audience(readers) can self capacitate or can't.
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1429:: Denisovans have nothing to do with Herto man. They are not relevant to this article.
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You use "artefact" in several places. Is that an alternate spelling for "artifact"?
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The "Morphology and taxonomy" section talks about Omo more than it does Herto.
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I'm not seeing any issues with breadth of coverage, NPOV, stability, or images.
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1109:- Please see a possible clarification in the discussions at the following =: -->
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OK i don't going (yet) do such 'WP:OR?' on ... (i hope it is unnecessery:)
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erectus in Australia? Really? Could you give a reference for that claim? --
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Therefore (or without there) addition of paper L is valid.
1114:" - hope this helps in some way - in any case - Enjoy! :)
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and if so migrated from Asia. And therefore differs from
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2956:GA-Class Palaeontology articles of High-importance
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1291:I propose (bolded text is my) following edit:
2155:(images are tagged and non-free content have
1530:and the worse to most 4d proximate Homo omo?
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2849:" has only really been applied to Herto Man
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924:How is Idaltu pronounced? Thanks.
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1336:differ from CM, Omo or itself
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999:20:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
984:09:09, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
963:02:04, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
887:09:09, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
830:Knowledge:WikiProject Mammals
824:and see a list of open tasks.
717:and see a list of open tasks.
553:Evolutionary biology articles
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723:Knowledge:WikiProject Africa
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2861:19:13, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
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1384:ps im not going to say the
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487:Evolutionary biology portal
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1705:Homo erectus tautavelensis
1584:Journal of Human Evolution
1084:20:59, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
919:20:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
896:15:06, Feb 18, 2004 (UTC)
856:project's importance scale
749:project's importance scale
573:project's importance scale
536:Knowledge:Contributing FAQ
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1713:Homo erectus pekinensis
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1198:Oceania & Denisowa
1018:This article is a mess
877:(title added by Said:
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2144:It is illustrated by
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2847:H. s. idaltu
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2815:push to talk
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2734:
2714:push to talk
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2231:Lead section
2225:WP:TECHNICAL
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1817:Instructions
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1722:push to talk
1712:
1704:
1701:Tautavel Man
1697:H. s. idaltu
1696:
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1526:not good to
1524:Homo Sapiens
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1105:Stub Mandrel
1090:Stub Mandrel
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1021:
1007:
987:
973:
949:â Preceding
923:
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873:(confusions)
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493:
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299:Anthropology
290:Anthropology
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262:Anthropology
234:
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168:
105:WikiProjects
88:
52:
43:please do so
31:
30:
26:
2832:Cyan-Prince
2622:No issues.
1943:word choice
1831:transcluded
1711:instead of
1703:instead of
1655:move review
1396:Omo remains
1391:Hs denisova
1298:Ancient DNA
932:99.9.112.31
926:âPreceding
905:âPreceding
528:systematics
2870:Categories
2794:Peking Man
2691:References
2032:plagiarism
1976:verifiable
1784:Authorship
1770:GA toolbox
1734:per nom.--
1709:Peking Man
1664:Page moved
1590:: 95â106,
1561:References
1496:Skllagyook
1452:Skllagyook
1431:Skllagyook
1358:Skllagyook
1322:Skllagyook
1302:Homo Idalu
1224:Skllagyook
235:photograph
37:under the
2804:(and not
2796:(and not
2757:template.
2200:Pass/Fail
1886:Checklist
1843:Reviewer:
1807:Templates
1798:Reviewing
1763:GA Review
1693:Herto Man
970:Extinct?!
93:is rated
27:Herto Man
2808:), etc.
2802:Solo Man
2657:See also
2332:RoySmith
2263:RoySmith
1875:RoySmith
1856:contribs
1846:RoySmith
1812:Criteria
1736:Ortizesp
1603:26164107
1470:Homo omo
1386:Hs idalu
1116:Drbogdan
1050:Abitslow
951:unsigned
928:unsigned
907:unsigned
627:inactive
601:inactive
532:taxonomy
184:Primates
175:Primates
124:Primates
95:GA-class
47:reassess
2779:Solri89
2626:Culture
2618:Anatomy
2194:Overall
2075:focused
2028:copyvio
1947:fiction
1732:Support
1306:Syberia
1140:Arboleh
1134:Arboleh
1076:Kortoso
1032:..."Â ??
1030:sapiens
854:on the
827:Mammals
772:Mammals
747:on the
571:on the
431:on the
326:on the
211:on the
2857:(talk)
2735:idaltu
2335:(talk)
2266:(talk)
2147:images
2122:stable
2120:It is
2098:policy
2050:It is
1969:It is
1949:, and
1939:layout
1910:It is
1895:review
1878:(talk)
1145:Ryanoo
976:Rursus
879:Rursus
817:mammal
720:Africa
711:Africa
667:Africa
518:, and
101:scale.
54:Review
2669:done
2573:dine
2547:done
2521:done
2495:done
2412:done
2381:done
2355:done
2218:Prose
2173:with
1951:lists
1897:(see
1833:from
1354:WP:OR
1300:from
239:added
231:image
82:This
2836:talk
2783:talk
2638:yes
2599:yes
2030:and
1973:and
1935:lead
1933:for
1903:here
1899:here
1850:talk
1740:talk
1679:talk
1675:Jerm
1600:PMID
1536:talk
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995:talk
959:talk
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915:talk
530:and
423:High
2800:),
1931:MoS
1592:doi
1388:==
1308:"".
1246:map
1004:ref
894:Yak
846:Low
739:Low
563:Low
318:Mid
237:be
233:or
203:Mid
49:it.
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2036::
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2018::
2014:OR
2010:c
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1996:b
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1937:,
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