1423:"Native thought streams" is a perfectly reasonable way of describing what existed before Indian independence. There was no "Hindu identity" or a religion called "Hinduism" in the wider populace. It was gradually constructed and imposed on them, first by the British then by Indian politicians. If you asked my grandfather what his "religion" was, he would have replied that he didn't undrstand the question. "Native thought streams" were all he had. The "Muslims" had a "religion". He didn't. (See
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1304:, much like the sky is blue. I would have hardly thought the concept even requires that much explanation, but I nevertheless went out of my way to find quality peer-reviewed sourcing. Are you calling the peer-reviewed sourcing POV, and if so, what's its bias? A tendency to describe social phenomena using accurate sociological terminology? What do you think the subject is if not a form of
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1354:" (which is exactly what I mean by your home-baked interpretation). There are religious aspects to Hindu nationalism, but they are not the only ones. Van der Veer is studying "religious nationalism". So that is what he focuses on. (Moreover, his starting point is 1992, whereas this page goes back to the beginnings of Hindu nationalism in the 19th century).
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nationalism is in theory broader, because
Congress has been at pains to outline some form of Hindu nationalism along more ideologically secular lines, but the genre of Hindu nationalism remains predominated by Hindutva, which is radically right-wing/borderline fascist. Prejudice is common to both, however.
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Indeed, Vivekananda had unsurpassed moral and spiritual authority and every word of what he said was true. He single-handedly put
Hinduism on the map of world religions. I am sure it did a lot to uplift the spirits of Indians and Hindus, and awakened "national" feelings in them. But that is not to
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I have no strong opinions about category usage, as our guidelines on the topic are both fuzzy and dreadfully enforced. However, it's patently obvious that
Hindutva is the form of Hindu nationalism that prevalent in the present day, and Hindu nationalism is a superset of ideologies and practices that
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That material didn't really have it that wrong. Hindu nationalism and
Hindutva are basically a borderline solar eclipse on a venn diagram. Distinct enough that they just about deserve to be discussed separately, but intricately intertwined nonetheless. Again, just read the first sentence of the page
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Gould is saying that this "Hindu nationalism", which originated in
Congress, wasn't exclusivist. It was perfectly in harmony with the idea of a secular state, because Hinduism itself didn't require any "Hindu state" (whatever that might mean). Some time after this, the Congress evolved the notion of
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and other Hindu ideologues, and that, despite this, Congress still leaned on religious symbolism and public religious rituals. Gould also says that he goes about his book intentionally utilizing a broader or looser concept of Hindu nationalism. None of this is explained in the current excerpt on the
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Ok, but if sociology experts studying religious nationalism say that it is a form of it, who are experts not focused on religious nationalism to say otherwise? Sociology is what we look to for top-level ideological classifications. Gould doesn't really provide any one definition. He says the term is
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Plenty of authoritative scholars cited on the page don't call it religious nationalism. The page itself doesn't call it religious nationalism. You are just pushing your own POV, by hunting for sources that support that POV and trying to insert them into the lead. The lead summarises the article, not
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No, I restored it on the grounds that it is long-standing content. Putting a page needed tag is the right thing to do. The Hindu nationalism of INC is discussed on dozens of sources including
Jaffrelot. Some scholars even tried to coin new terms for it such as "Hindu traditionalism", which was said
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This is not subtle stuff, and trying to wish it away is only a few short steps from plain denialism. Any form of nationalism centered around a faith tradition is intrinsically discriminatory to a certain degree, and for Hindu nationalism the prevailing focus of its nationalistic ire has always been
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This is not a page about individual people, this is a page about an ideology: one that has been relatively consistent in its polemics. Search through the mentions of
Muslims on this page, and assess for yourself how many of the discussed interactions are in a positive light, and how many are quite
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Largely historical how? Seems pretty live and well. And
Hindutva, it's prevailing nationalistic ideology, is positively drenched in Islamophobia, so how you think Hindu nationalism is not in any way connected, I do not know. Just look at like, oh, I don't know, any source on Hindu nationalism, or,
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Hindutva 'is not a religious philosophy or a social philosophy based on cultural chauvinism, which insists that the non-Hindus of India accept their place as "minorities", whose safety and security will depend on their ability to earn the "goodwill of the majority"'. Thus at the heart of
Hindutva
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So in the early 20th century, the politicans had the job of mobilisng a "nation" out of this populace, which they did by using religious and cultural symbols and defining an "Indian identity" based on those. The Indian
Muslims didn't have these symbols. To them, "India" didn't mean anything. They
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It's not to be taken seriously because it's not supported by reliable sources. Have you read the source you're citing? What makes it reliable, and what does it say on this subject? What Savarkar sought to define Hindutva as is quite irrelevant; what matters is how sources define it today, and no
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Irrelevant how? As the lead states, Hindu nationalism is today championed by the BJP and RSS, which, together, represent one of the beating hearts of not just anti-Muslim/Islam, but brazen Islamophobia, in Asia these days - though it's a bit of a close call as to whether they or the Buddhist far
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I agree the current opening sentence isn't fit for purpose. However, we can't equate Hindutva and Hindu nationalism: there are plenty of sources discussing Hindu nationalism as a broader phenomenon from the 1800s onward. Hindutva is of course the predominant form that exists today. I haven't the
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Seems to have pros and cons, some good, some bad. Directly equating the subject and Hindutva seems problematic, but "ethno-religious and nationalist" sounds uncannily like religious nationalism, but then again, this is a less-than-stellar open access journal. Maybe we can do better. And that is
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Well maybe, or maybe the two articles just artificially give the imaginings of two subjects more distinct than they actually are. The first sentence of Hindutva just calls it the "cultural justification of Hindu nationalism" - neither can really conceivably be imagined without the other. Hindu
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Capitals00, the very source you quote describes it as being founded in religious identity. Sure, it isn't a religious philosophy, but "Hindutva has no religious connotation" is an absurd argument, founded in neither the source material nor the common sense, and is not be taken seriously here.
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I am sure the Hindu nationalists love him, mostly because they still suffer from the low self-esteem that the Hindus of the 19th century colonial India had. However, the Hindu nationalists haven't read even a single speech of Vivekananda, except for those pithy slogans that arrive in the RSS
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As Christophe Jaffrelot has pointed out, while the nationalism of the Congress party was essentially territorial and "civic," identifying as Indians all inhabitants of the British Indian Empire, Hindu Nationalism has sought to identify an Indian nation according to ethnic criteria. For Hindu
1266:, on earth, could you look at my addition and think, yep, that's the problem, and the best way to improve this lead, which currently includes made-up phrases like "native thought streams", is to remove a well-sourced first effort at actually defining the subject, instead of working with it?
1614:(though it remains debatable if these are even separate subjects or just different aspects of the same). But the category of Anti-Islam sentiment in general is a pretty straightforward one. Hindu nationalism is drenched with aspersions of dual loyality, e.g. Atal Bihari Vajpayee, 1998:
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1616:"Mecca can continue to be holy for the Muslims but India should be holier than the holy for them. You can go to a mosque and offer namaz, you can keep the roza. We have no problem. But if you have to choose between Mecca or Islam and India you must choose India."
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are hatred towards minority community which means some form discrimination. In my view both category & template must be added as this ideology is nothing but xenophobia & Islamophobic in nature. Moreover an entire article has been created on
1300:: Hmm, I think your AGF is slipping a little there. Ok, you think it is POV (x3), and home-baked - ok ... how the are scholarly sources you removed 'home-baked' exactly? To me, it seems not only obvious, but basic common sense that it is a form of
856:(2) Hindu nationalism is far more diverse than the just expanding the formulations of Savarkar, Syama Prasad Mookerjee and the RSS, VHP and the BJP. It is rooted in the ancient history of India, with the period of Islamic invasions and empires.
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With this absurd sense, you should be adding same category ("Category:Anti-Islam sentiment...") to every single page about every Christian and Jewish priest because they are not pro-Islamic or neutral about all religions on a cursory look.
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No, that isn't what it means. It just means that they are some defining characteristics. It does not mean there is no plurality within the subject, or that, by any stretch of the imagination, every item on the page is referenced by them.
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There was no consensus to add it or even any discussion. Noting that people like you are misrepresenting it even after being told many many times that Hindutva and Hindu nationalism are not same, I think it needs to be removed again.
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Also waiting for your confirmation that "native thought streams" is meaningless verbiage and that the first sentence and lead do need better clarifying. It's all well and good criticizing, but how would you address the problems?
853:(1) There are large numbers of Hindus in India who do not accept Hindutva as their political expression or idea of patriotism or nationalism. Yet these are Hindus, and impact the expression of Hindu society and India as a whole.
2256:" The bolded text is what was missing. This aside, 'not a religious philosophy' does not mean 'no religious connotations'. On the contrary, it sorts Indians into the religiously contrived groupings of 'Hindus' and 'non-Hindus'.
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This was removed by Aman.kumar.goel with edit summary "Beyond irrelevant". As the source title says, this is about Hindu nationalists. As the page title says, this is relevant. where else are we going to cover this if not here?
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entirely encompasses Hindutva; the two cannot be separated. Also, the claim that there are no religious aspects to Hindutva are nonsensical; what then is it based on? Hindus are not an ethnic group in any sense of the word.
1893:"Their holy land is far off in Arabia or Palestine. Their mythology and Godmen, ideas and heroes are not the children of this soil. Consequently, their names and their outlook smack of foreign origin. Their love is divided"
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This really ought to be a hotter topic for this article. It is never acceptable to refer to a thing as if it isn't "a thing" in itself but rather "refers to a thing", even worse when it is "a thing that is referred to as ".
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Aside from the obvious, which Vanamonde has already pointed out, Savarkar's page makes clear that while he may have been personally irreligious to a certain degree, he still saw religion as part of his political narrative.
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ideology is the notion that what is good for the majority should be also good for the minorities and that any assertion of minority rights is essentially a threat and a challenge to the political authority of the majority.
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Jaffrelot's characterisation probably holds good for the RSS-style Hindu nationalism (or "Hindutva"), but there are also other streams. This requires further study and thought. I can't say anything at the moment. --
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1435:"Indian nationalism", which is a straightforward territorial nationalism, meaning the nation belongs to all people living in the territory of India. I only see one use of "religious nationalism" in this entire book.
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Jaffrelot, who is more focused on RSS-style Hindu nationalism, calls it "ethno-religious nationalism" and also relates it to European-style "ethnic nationalism". He doesn't call it "religious nationalism". --
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nationalists, emphasizing Hindu identity is a way of overcoming the linguistic and regional diversity of India, by emphasizing a shared cultural heritage that also distinguished most Indians from non Indians.
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Plenty of sources treat Hindu nationalism and Hindutva as synonymous. It is not clear that Knowledge's setup at this time is a neutral reflection of reliable sources. Dedicated books on Hindu nationalism,
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based on cultural chauvinism, which insists that the non-Hindus of India accept their place as "minorities", whose safety and security will depend on their ability to earn the "goodwill of the majority"'.
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scholarly source on the topic denies that Hindutva has religious connotations. For crying out loud, it's used interchangeably with Hindu nationalism in English-language sources outside the subcontinent.
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On 5 August 1939, Savarkar highlighted how a common strand of "thought, religion, language, and culture" was essential to nationality thus preventing the Germans and Jews from being considerable as one
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is not anything separate; it is plain and simply, in the words of Bhatt, p.4, the "distinctive ideology" that emerged in the 1920s with Savarkar and which "animates contemporary Hindu nationalism".
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itself state: "The coinage of the term "Hindutva" was an attempt by Savarkar who was non religious and a rationalist, to de-link it from any religious connotations that had become attached to it."
859:(3) Lokmanya Tilak, Mahatma Gandhi, Sardar Patel and Purushottam Das Tandon were not Hindutva adherents, but were with a different kind of Hindu pride. Why should they be crammed into Hindutva?
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bandwidth to draft anything presently, but it's safe to assume it needs to describe it as a political ideology linking Hinduism to nationalistic struggle. I welcome any effort in this respect.
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right in Myanmar are the current epicenter of it. I've already given you one quote from the page itself. Here's another from Savarkar that also supports the anti-Christian sentiment category:
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One of your edits has been reverted by two users who are quite less experienced than you. Also, there isn't any proper explanation behind their move. I reverted both their edits. Thanks
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Instead it attempts to find parallels between what BJP is doing and what Congress was doing during Hindu nationalism. Arun R. Swamy summarizes views of Jaffrelot from this book as: "
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problematic, and, on page 7, that Congress attempted to broaden the meaning of "Hindu" to the secular, but that this notion of "Hindu nationalism" was very different to that of
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No they are not justified at all. With this category you are labeling every single person to be anti-Christian and anti-Muslim whoever has been a part of this ideology. See
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Hindu nationalism is a political and social expression based on the religious, and cultural traditions of South Asia. But Hindutva does not have any religious connotations.
1101:) never actually defined this movement. If scholarly sources (not throw-away news links) started to consider them to be vital part of Hindu nationalism then we can rethink.
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2143:- your personal opinion here is directly contradicted by all the sources tying the two directly together. Once again: Hindutva "animates contemporary Hindu nationalism".
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Hindu nationalism is largely historical. It happens to give special importance to Hindu culture and traditions but it does not mean it becomes anti-Islamic. Just like
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which supports the statement that Hindutva does not have religious connotations. Why it shouldn't be taken seriously? Hindutva is purely a political ideology. This
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The above apology for Hindutva is the kind of deception and whitewashing generally displayed by Hindutvavadis. Specially see the sign off with Jai Shri Ram
252:. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them.
1392:"undertook to reform their society and its religious practices in order to adapt them to Western modernity while preserving the cored of Hindu tradition"
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I would like to know how sources support the information. Bal Gangadhar Tilak cannot be described as a Hindu nationalist because he was no influence on
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1362:(1735 citations on Google scholar) are the authorative sources for Hindu nationalism. You can't insert stuff which violates what they say. --
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requires the first sentence to say what the subject is, in plain English. What we're looking for is a "Subject is XXX" sentence here, not an
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My main case, as the author and creator of this article project, for Hindu Nationalism's disctinction from Hindutva rests on three points:
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1230:- it would be hard to define "native thought streams" let alone assert that it defines anything else - google that and you get redirected
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Fwiw, I think that the categories are much more appropriate than the 2 templates. I appreciate that this article is much broader than
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http://www.newindianexpress.com/lifestyle/spirituality/The-theory-of-nationalism-by-Swami-Vivekananda/2013/11/16/article1893824.ece
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These are complex social phenomena for which different scholars might attach different interpretations. It is not at all like "
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belonged to a worldwide Muslim "ummah". So the only thing they could be mobilised on was something like the Khilafat movement.
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part is a given - leading one to ask, so, what type of nationalism? That is the question I put to the jury. For example,
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Working through things on the talk page is the way to handle disputed edits, not constantly reverting each other. -
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Hindutva is political but not religious. Hindu nationalism is both religious and political. That's the difference.
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I'm talking about books on the subject by academic publishers; nothing you have presented even comes close. As for
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are both different things. Consider finding rebutal to this source and don't edit war if you are really serious.
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was also sock of this same sock-farm but it won't be possible to convict it right now unless they log in again.
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politics in India" are there today? What's their claim to dominance? It doesn't even say "the dominant" btw.
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etc, but I think the categories are justified by much, but not all, of the things & people covered here.
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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Only linking the book is not gonna work. You have to tell how the same book is strengthening your position.
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I have also read that source and it does not say it anywhere that Congress engaged in Hindu nationalism.
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No you are not making any sense here. Your absurd logic can be easily applied on individual pages too.
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The discrimination and Islamophobia tags are somewhat debatable and more of obviously dead ringers for
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to be real Hindu nationalism minus xenophobia. I don't have the time to wade into it right now. --
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Any uninvolved admin may adjust the Protection at their discretion, without needing to notify me.
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between
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Hindutva is not same as Hindu nationalism, that's why we have two different articles for both.
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It not marked as opinion piece and it far qualified than your own views that have no sources.
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This page does not currently have a proper first sentence that says what the subject is, per
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which has all the coherence of a badly worded press release. The next sentence is even worse
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I'm not sure when and why that was removed, but it seems an entirely appropriate inclusion.
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has added this comment, along with the section above titled "Hindutva". Could you confirm?
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1508:- so is it or isn't it? The statement leaves one none-the-wiser. What it needs to say is
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for a thorough discussion of this, whose citation you seem to have removed this morning.)
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exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.
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ideology which is the predominant form of Hindu nationalism today as discussed above.
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That is about Hindutva which is "championed" by BJP and RSS. Not Hindu nationalism.
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As a Jaffrelot fan, does that mean you'd get behind ethno-religious nationalism?
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on the lead has been restored on the basis that Tilak was a Hindu nationalist.
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Marzia Casolari. "Hindutva's Foreign Tie-Up in the 1930s: Archival Evidence".
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when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
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Hindu nationalism has religious connotation but Hindutva does not have it.
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plain English the language in this lead is. I added that the subject is
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be defined as. At the risk of being too bold, I would suggest that the
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An editorial comment piece is a terrible point of reference for this.
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The content is misleading for the lead as we have already seen above.
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as distraction but a throw-away account with only 1 edit restored it.
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Religious Nationalism in a Global Age: The Case of Hindu Nationalism
787:-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the
509:-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the
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1512:. Given the pushback against defining it in sociological terms, as
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which caused the actual edit war have been blocked as sockpuppets.
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this page for 2 weeks, due to the ongoing reverting/edit-warring.
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say that he was a nationalist, least of all a "Hindu nationalist!"
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Hindutva 'is not a religious philosophy or a social philosophy.
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That's the difference between Hindu Nationalism and Hindutva.
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You missed a phrase that reversed the meaning. Actual quote: "
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Also the above sock (LinnéaBørresen) and the person who added
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Lots of people think Vivekananda promoted nationalism. E.g.,
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Maybe so, and for that reason we have stricter BLP policies.
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Do not use more than five articles with the main template. --
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None of these words are supportive of the disputed content.
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Religious Nationalism and Democratic Polity: The Indian Case
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actually functional opening definition that you've removed.
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Should we restore the third para of long-standing lead from
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1214:: Ok, come on then, I'm listening. What's the problem with
1256:- that ones gives it to you right there in the title, and
334:. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If
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Two of the editors who edit warred and added the content
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Nowhere. These online trolls who got one-off coverage (
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Please discuss on the talk page in order to come to a
1234:- that's how unhelpful, esoteric, rarefied and simply
173:
2119:
Romit Bagchi is a reputed author so don't ignore him.
2290:
political, and ideologically borderline indistinct.
2141:"Hindutva does not have any religious connotations."
678:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
2079:are both blocked as socks of each other. I suspect
1382:page. Jaffrelot's work, chapter 1, page 11 states:
2662:C-Class Indian politics articles of Mid-importance
2642:C-Class Indian history articles of High-importance
1940:(meaning "Hinduness") is a dominant form of Hindu
1329:Religious Nationalism: Hindus and Muslims in India
1250:(an actual explanation, in plain English), citing
1147:Wiki Education assignment: India in Global Studies
1657:on Muslims, India's largest religious minority.
783:, which aims to improve Knowledge's coverage of
505:, which aims to improve Knowledge's coverage of
46:for general discussion of the article's subject.
1677:::::The fact of the matter is basic tenets of
1506:"... has been collectively referred to as ..."
1128:Participate in the deletion discussion at the
1879:because they are irrelevant to this subject.
1516:, I would like to hear what editors think it
1326:Might I also recommend, chapter 1, page 1 of
330:while commenting or presenting evidence, and
187:
8:
1694:can give your view regarding this matter.--
1510:"Hindu nationalism is ... INSERT DEFINTION"
2612:Knowledge articles that use Indian English
2439:may result in further sanction, including
729:
624:
434:
365:, which has its own spelling conventions (
1533:precisely what the floor is open to now.
2627:C-Class India articles of Mid-importance
2537:Tilak's own page seems to refer more to
1944:politics in India" was itself unsourced
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7:
2667:WikiProject Indian politics articles
777:This article is within the scope of
672:This article is within the scope of
499:This article is within the scope of
2647:WikiProject Indian history articles
2443:, by any uninvolved administrator.
36:for discussing improvements to the
1161:
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920:-- Unknown user, 14 November 2014
611:This article was last assessed in
14:
2492:2 out of many, is still too many.
2682:Mid-importance politics articles
2652:C-Class Indian politics articles
2481:You should undo the protection.
1633:Muslim nationalism in South Asia
1164:. Further details are available
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2632:C-Class Indian history articles
1582:Category & Template Removed
902:) --- a POV if I ever saw one.
823:This article has been rated as
712:This article has been rated as
541:This article has been rated as
254:Content must be written from a
238:The subject of this article is
2607:Knowledge controversial topics
2590:02:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
2568:19:40, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
2551:17:23, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
2532:17:05, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
2077:these categories and templates
2006:Hindutva and Hindu nationalism
1028:19:23, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
1011:08:14, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
984:07:58, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
963:The history of the page says @
692:Knowledge:WikiProject Politics
425:It is of interest to multiple
1:
2697:Low-importance Nepal articles
2687:WikiProject Politics articles
2622:Mid-importance India articles
2405:Economic and Political Weekly
1188:— Assignment last updated by
954:17:18, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
939:22:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
695:Template:WikiProject Politics
686:and see a list of open tasks.
590:the Indian politics workgroup
587:This article is supported by
563:This article is supported by
286:for general discussion about
55:Put new text under old text.
2252:It is a political philosophy
1282:your own home-baked POV. --
996:Special:PermaLink/1041431641
566:the Indian history workgroup
332:do not make personal attacks
1986:What other forms of "Hindu
1142:20:38, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
1108:02:37, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
803:Knowledge:WikiProject Nepal
521:Knowledge:WikiProject India
248:When updating the article,
63:New to Knowledge? Welcome!
2718:
2702:WikiProject Nepal articles
2672:WikiProject India articles
2441:being blocked from editing
2326:Hindu nationalism#Savarkar
1262:. What's the problem? And
1228:"Native thought streams.."
1123:Map of Undivided India.jpg
1092:09:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
969:Special:PermaLink/31861555
890:typical hindutva deception
829:project's importance scale
806:Template:WikiProject Nepal
718:project's importance scale
547:project's importance scale
524:Template:WikiProject India
2677:C-Class politics articles
2286:Nope, both are religious
1576:07:41, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
912:02:26, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
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791:and add your name to the
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93:Be welcoming to newcomers
22:Skip to table of contents
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2018:23:39, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
2000:20:15, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
1982:20:10, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
1959:19:22, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
1948:. Now having it removed
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1496:Hindu nationalism is ...
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21:
1647:for want of specifics:
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1079:Special:Diff/1102484132
2692:C-Class Nepal articles
2617:C-Class India articles
1875:These categories fail
1425:Wilfred Cantwell Smith
945:Use of {main} template
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415:This article is rated
242:and content may be in
88:avoid personal attacks
2510:Independence movement
1936:The sentence "Today,
1635:is not "anti-Hindu".
1514:religious nationalism
1310:religious nationalism
1306:religious nationalism
1302:religious nationalism
1242:religious nationalism
1168:. Student editor(s):
606:
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256:neutral point of view
113:Neutral point of view
2435:And note: Continued
1360:Christophe Jaffrelot
675:WikiProject Politics
391:relevant style guide
387:varieties of English
290:. Any such comments
118:No original research
1176:). Peer reviewers:
389:. According to the
2539:Indian nationalism
2437:disruptive editing
1688:Hindutva terrorism
1334:Peter van der Veer
1166:on the course page
1134:Community Tech bot
608:
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421:content assessment
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99:dispute resolution
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2421:Protection notice
2321:He cited a source
2234:This sums it up.
1915:and I removed it
1845:and refrain from
1692:Fowler&fowler
1683:Hindu nationalism
1232:back to this page
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