776:
Moses, the cited source. I suppose it is possible to reconcile a view of history as a tale of great men with a view of it as a tale of the inevitable progress of ideas. But this section does not give enough about other philosophers' views. The note on Hitler's self-identification as a world-historical figure belongs somewhere in the article, but I am not sure if it is in this section. Ditto the note on politicians identifying themselves with historical figures of the past. I have been following the random approach of a Google "preview available" search to see what different books have to say about "historical figure", and putting that in where it fits, or starting new sections. That has the advantages of finding the main aspects of the subject that should be covered and of resolving the AfD discussion, but the drawback of giving a rather incoherent effect. The article may be reaching the stage where it needs a more deliberate approach, looking for sources that discuss specific aspects. I will probably keep tinkering for two or three days.
105:
274:
264:
243:
458:
437:
21:
159:
138:
380:
96:
797:
require strong support for its statements though, as some may disagree with them otherwise. But we risk the lead diverging from the rest of the article if it appears to stand by itself and I have seen this happen in other controversial cases. I have no clever solution to offer but just wanted to document the issue which may arise later at places like GA review.
352:
169:
610:"An 'istorical figure" is of course correct, as is "A historical figure". In the ex-colonies some people pronounce "Herb", short for "Her Bert", as if it were the French word "herbe" (air-b), but more like "urb" as in sub-urban. They would consider that "an herb" (an urb) is correct. I am not sure where this is leading.
500:
This means that the article has been copied to the
Wiktionary Transwiki namespace for evaluation and formatting. It does not mean that the article is in the Wiktionary main namespace, or that it has been removed from Knowledge's. Furthermore, the Wiktionarians might delete the article from Wiktionary
775:
The sense I have - and I knew next to nothing about it before working on this article - is that Hegel saw the world-historical figure as appearing when the time was ripe, expressing the mind-spirit of the time. The figure has huge impact, but is bound to appear. The "representative man" idea is from
899:
as the lede pic . Since 2011 she's been used by a number of orgs as their no 1 historical figure to help get women more involved in tech, including editing wikipedia. As for including
Muhammad in the lede rather than Jesus, its good to be aware that Jesus is not principally a historical figure, the
851:
at the front of this list but I have just removed this for several reasons. One is that the choice might be controversial and I don't want the article to be politicised. Another is that we don't want the lead to turn into a top ten, in which everyone's favourites jostle for attention. A third is
796:
The expanded lead was recently a summary of the rest of the article but now contains supporting citations. My general understanding is that citations are not normally expected in the lead, as it summarises the main body of the article, where the citations will usually appear. This article may
889:
ranked
Muhammad as the world's no 1 most influential historical figure. Its goood to have ethnic as well as gender balance, and historically men were generally over represented in the public domain (women having instead dominion in the domestic sphere). Three is a better number than
916:
It looks like categories have been added to the main article but these are not addressed in the lead, such as "political appropriation" and "in branding." I think it could be helpful to rework the introductory section to reflect these additions.
553:
And, for a change, a DYK article looks like it's both of a good size and fully-expanded. So many DYK articles are just barely long enough to qualify, and clearly incomplete, that this is a welcome change. Well done, everybody!
852:
that adding another man tips the gender balance. Note that the picture of Lady Godiva has recently been moved down so that the lead picture is now a man, not a woman and that picture is then followed by a string of other
884:
IMO those who have done the hard work building up the body should have the most say in the wording of the lede. But for me it would be good to include
Muhammad in the lede, for several reasons. Even the white nationalist
58:
844:. I was also concerned to ensure that we had some gender balance and so this would include a woman. Gender bias is something which the article comments upon and so we should be sensitive to this ourselves.
961:
535:
429:
52:
362:
679:). But now that the h in such words is pronounced, the distinction has become anomalous and will no doubt disappear in time. Meantime, speakers who like to say
733:
and so I added some material about Hegel's ideas to that. We should perhaps include some cross-linkage between that article and this and also do the same with
951:
991:
330:
320:
966:
812:
Agree. The citations can and probably should be dropped. I have seen some articles where the lead became a battlefield. That seems very unlikely here.
946:
730:
996:
976:
225:
215:
109:
758:". This seems to be something of a contradiction but I suppose it's mostly a matter of perspective - how one approaches and views their writings.
956:
425:
981:
296:
986:
574:
Let me be the first to identify what may become the most disputed aspect of the article: whether it should open with "A" or "An", i.e.
1001:
191:
971:
488:
287:
248:
73:
941:
40:
559:
182:
143:
491:
480:
118:
34:
864:
more than any of these examples and so, if we were to change the lead examples, those two might be a better pair.
585:
My understanding of general practise is that the first of these is more common now and that's what we see in the
555:
510:
358:
874:
802:
765:
709:
641:
600:
543:
521:
506:
30:
723:
I like this new section about the ideas of Hegel and others. Please note the coincidence that the article
905:
80:
395:
124:
756:
Hegel, Thomas
Carlyle and others noted that the great historical figures were just representative men,
833:
675:
was formerly usual before an unaccented syllable beginning with h and is still often seen and heard (
484:
351:
95:
918:
870:
798:
761:
705:
637:
633:
596:
539:
66:
900:
living Christ is in fact still here with us today, imperceptible to most, but closer than breath.
295:
on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
190:
on
Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
922:
817:
781:
690:
615:
379:
46:
901:
411:
279:
867:
As this issue is likely to recur, I'm getting discussion started so that we can document it.
734:
704:
For the record, I note that we're now back at "A historical" and I endorse this reversion.
886:
853:
263:
242:
174:
677:
an historian, an hotel, an hysterical scene, an hereditary title, an habitual offender
935:
813:
777:
686:
611:
636:, for example. It seemed best to start a discussion to forestall any edit warring.
400:
896:
655:
841:
654:
My vote is for "A", since the aitch is not silent. That seems the simplest rule.
754:". In the section here, the two are shown to be pulling in the same direction, "
861:
856:. A fourth reason is undue weight or representation: the article focusses upon
415:
457:
476:
469:
292:
269:
164:
746:
725:
465:
390:
926:
909:
878:
821:
806:
785:
769:
713:
694:
645:
619:
604:
563:
547:
524:
752:
the concept counters the Great Man theory popularised by Thomas
Carlyle...
632:
recently. Editors can be quite determined about this sort of issue - see
158:
137:
848:
837:
840:. I chose these originally as they were the first two examples in the
187:
509:
to re-transwiki the entry. This article should have been removed from
186:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of
857:
895:
To compensate on the gender balance issue, you could maybe have
452:
374:
346:
89:
15:
501:
if they do not find it to be appropriate for the
Wiktionary.
435:
683:
should not try to have it both ways by aspirating the h.
629:
586:
428:. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at
65:
291:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
430:
Template:Did you know nominations/Historical figure
737:, pulling the latter into the main body from the
479:. Therefore the article can be found at either
421:probably did not ride naked through the streets?
667:is used before all consonants except silent h (
659:
79:
8:
962:Knowledge level-5 vital articles in History
449:2007-06-16 Automated pywikipediabot message
475:The article has content that is useful at
237:
132:
403:). The text of the entry was as follows:
361:on 12 October 2012 (UTC). The result of
505:Removing this tag will usually trigger
426:Knowledge:Recent additions/2012/October
239:
134:
93:
832:The current examples in the lead are
424:A record of the entry may be seen at
7:
285:This article is within the scope of
180:This article is within the scope of
952:Knowledge vital articles in History
123:It is of interest to the following
992:Top-importance Literature articles
658:opens his book with the following:
14:
967:C-Class vital articles in History
593:is a person who lived long ago."
513:and should not be re-added there.
436:
947:Knowledge level-5 vital articles
456:
378:
350:
305:Knowledge:WikiProject Literature
272:
262:
241:
167:
157:
136:
103:
94:
19:
997:Knowledge Did you know articles
977:Top-importance history articles
357:This article was nominated for
325:This article has been rated as
308:Template:WikiProject Literature
220:This article has been rated as
957:C-Class level-5 vital articles
1:
299:and see a list of open tasks.
200:Knowledge:WikiProject History
194:and see a list of open tasks.
982:WikiProject History articles
927:09:06, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
910:20:42, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
879:08:51, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
822:13:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
807:09:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
786:13:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
770:09:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
714:09:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
695:12:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
646:10:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
620:00:27, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
605:20:03, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
564:18:22, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
548:11:42, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
203:Template:WikiProject History
987:C-Class Literature articles
578:"A historical figure..." or
511:Category:Copy to Wiktionary
399:column on 28 October 2012 (
1018:
581:"An historical figure...".
331:project's importance scale
226:project's importance scale
1002:Transwikied to Wiktionary
525:01:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
324:
257:
219:
152:
131:
972:C-Class history articles
389:appeared on Knowledge's
942:C-Class vital articles
685:
534:This article has been
441:
288:WikiProject Literature
847:Another editor added
792:Citations in the lead
729:was also recently at
439:
110:level-5 vital article
834:Florence Nightingale
828:Examples in the lead
628:Another editor made
556:Piledhigheranddeeper
634:Talk:Strand, London
522:CopyToWiktionaryBot
507:CopyToWiktionaryBot
464:This page has been
311:Literature articles
183:WikiProject History
669:a history, an hour
570:Indefinite article
442:
119:content assessment
719:Concept and usage
591:historical figure
536:nominated for DYK
518:
517:
514:
502:
446:
445:
412:historical figure
387:Historical figure
373:
372:
345:
344:
341:
340:
337:
336:
280:Literature portal
236:
235:
232:
231:
88:
87:
1009:
750:, I wrote that "
735:Great Man theory
504:
496:
460:
453:
438:
382:
375:
354:
347:
313:
312:
309:
306:
303:
282:
277:
276:
275:
266:
259:
258:
253:
245:
238:
208:
207:
206:history articles
204:
201:
198:
177:
172:
171:
170:
161:
154:
153:
148:
140:
133:
116:
107:
106:
99:
98:
90:
84:
83:
69:
23:
22:
16:
1017:
1016:
1012:
1011:
1010:
1008:
1007:
1006:
932:
931:
830:
794:
721:
572:
532:
451:
310:
307:
304:
301:
300:
278:
273:
271:
251:
205:
202:
199:
196:
195:
173:
168:
166:
146:
117:on Knowledge's
114:
104:
26:
20:
12:
11:
5:
1015:
1013:
1005:
1004:
999:
994:
989:
984:
979:
974:
969:
964:
959:
954:
949:
944:
934:
933:
930:
929:
913:
912:
892:
891:
854:dead white men
829:
826:
825:
824:
793:
790:
789:
788:
720:
717:
702:
701:
700:
699:
698:
697:
649:
648:
623:
622:
583:
582:
579:
571:
568:
567:
566:
531:
528:
516:
515:
503:
495:
474:
461:
450:
447:
444:
443:
433:
423:
422:
383:
371:
370:
363:the discussion
355:
343:
342:
339:
338:
335:
334:
327:Top-importance
323:
317:
316:
314:
297:the discussion
284:
283:
267:
255:
254:
252:Top‑importance
246:
234:
233:
230:
229:
222:Top-importance
218:
212:
211:
209:
192:the discussion
179:
178:
175:History portal
162:
150:
149:
147:Top‑importance
141:
129:
128:
122:
100:
86:
85:
24:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1014:
1003:
1000:
998:
995:
993:
990:
988:
985:
983:
980:
978:
975:
973:
970:
968:
965:
963:
960:
958:
955:
953:
950:
948:
945:
943:
940:
939:
937:
928:
924:
920:
915:
914:
911:
907:
903:
898:
894:
893:
888:
883:
882:
881:
880:
876:
872:
868:
865:
863:
859:
855:
850:
845:
843:
839:
835:
827:
823:
819:
815:
811:
810:
809:
808:
804:
800:
791:
787:
783:
779:
774:
773:
772:
771:
767:
763:
759:
757:
753:
749:
748:
742:
740:
736:
732:
728:
727:
718:
716:
715:
711:
707:
696:
692:
688:
684:
682:
678:
674:
670:
666:
663:
657:
653:
652:
651:
650:
647:
643:
639:
635:
631:
627:
626:
625:
624:
621:
617:
613:
609:
608:
607:
606:
602:
598:
594:
592:
588:
580:
577:
576:
575:
569:
565:
561:
557:
552:
551:
550:
549:
545:
541:
537:
529:
527:
526:
523:
512:
508:
499:
493:
490:
486:
482:
478:
473:
471:
467:
462:
459:
455:
454:
448:
434:
431:
427:
420:
417:
414:
413:
409:... that the
408:
405:
404:
402:
398:
397:
392:
388:
384:
381:
377:
376:
368:
364:
360:
356:
353:
349:
348:
332:
328:
322:
319:
318:
315:
298:
294:
290:
289:
281:
270:
268:
265:
261:
260:
256:
250:
247:
244:
240:
227:
223:
217:
214:
213:
210:
193:
189:
185:
184:
176:
165:
163:
160:
156:
155:
151:
145:
142:
139:
135:
130:
126:
120:
112:
111:
101:
97:
92:
91:
82:
78:
75:
72:
68:
64:
60:
57:
54:
51:
48:
45:
42:
39:
36:
32:
29:
28:Find sources:
25:
18:
17:
902:FeydHuxtable
897:Ada Lovelace
869:
866:
846:
831:
795:
760:
755:
751:
745:
743:
738:
724:
722:
703:
680:
676:
672:
668:
664:
661:
660:
656:H. W. Fowler
595:
590:
584:
573:
533:
519:
497:
463:
418:
410:
407:Did you know
406:
396:Did you know
394:
386:
385:A fact from
366:
326:
286:
221:
181:
125:WikiProjects
108:
76:
70:
62:
55:
49:
43:
37:
27:
862:Joan of Arc
630:this change
587:first draft
466:transwikied
416:Lady Godiva
401:check views
53:free images
936:Categories
842:BBC source
477:Wiktionary
470:Wiktionary
419:(pictured)
302:Literature
293:Literature
249:Literature
747:Zeitgeist
741:section.
726:Zeitgeist
687:Haymatth2
662:a, an. 1.
440:Knowledge
391:Main Page
367:Snow Keep
113:is rated
919:Niortega
849:Muhammed
838:Napoleon
814:Aymatth2
778:Aymatth2
739:See also
612:Aymatth2
359:deletion
393:in the
329:on the
224:on the
197:History
188:History
144:History
115:C-class
59:WP refs
47:scholar
871:Warden
799:Warden
762:Warden
706:Warden
638:Warden
597:Warden
540:Warden
492:logs 2
489:logs 1
121:scale.
31:Google
858:Jesus
589:: "A
498:Note:
102:This
74:JSTOR
35:books
923:talk
906:talk
890:two.
887:Hart
875:talk
860:and
836:and
818:talk
803:talk
782:talk
766:talk
710:talk
691:talk
642:talk
616:talk
601:talk
560:talk
544:talk
494:.)
485:here
481:here
365:was
67:FENS
41:news
744:In
731:AFD
671:);
530:DYK
483:or
468:to
321:Top
216:Top
81:TWL
938::
925:)
908:)
877:)
820:)
805:)
784:)
768:)
712:)
693:)
681:an
673:an
644:)
618:)
603:)
562:)
554:--
546:)
538:.
520:--
61:)
921:(
904:(
873:(
816:(
801:(
780:(
764:(
708:(
689:(
665:A
640:(
614:(
599:(
558:(
542:(
487:(
472:.
432:.
369:.
333:.
228:.
127::
77:·
71:·
63:·
56:·
50:·
44:·
38:·
33:(
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.