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I think that is reasonable to include those as an explanation of why the sentence appeared so lenient. The BBC did mention the magistrate's breakdown as to why he passed the sentence that he did (starting at a year, deduct 3 months for first offence, deduct another 3 for the apology and remorse etc).
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In the body we have "making", followed by something in brackets, followed by a description of the making offence. In that case I am not sure what is in brackets is actually required, so there, the parenthetical could go. In the lead the parenthetical is needed unless we can rephrase as "accessing" or
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Last month we had a discussion around whether the article should use the legal phrase "making indecent images of children" - which in common, non-legal understanding implies
Edwards would have created the original images himself - or a more easily understood phrasing that indicates the actual nature
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Just because the media are using it, doesn't mean we should. As said above, we already have plenty of images of him in the article and adding the mug shot does nothing more than compound the humiliation to someone who is now a criminal and his career is over. We don't need to be gratuitous. Its the
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I think that if we don't use the infobox then it would also not be correct to add those parameters to infobox person. The infobox summarises, but a summary for someone who is notable for being a criminal will always look different from the summary for someone who is notable for something else.
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How is Edward's
Biography "violated" by use of this template? Does the statement "Infobox criminal is rarely used where notability is not due primarily to the person being a convicted criminal" apply equally when the template is used as a nested subsidiary template to "Inbox person"? Thanks.
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It looks like a blog to me, so I don't know if it's adequate, but I'll leave that for others worry about that. Similarly, I'm not convinced that we need the sanitised translation of the charge added in parentheses after each mention of it, but I'll let others worry about that one too. --
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shows a variety of newspaper front pages and so might be a useful source for this. The article also makes no mention of
Edwards' shame and the apology offered on his behalf by his lawyer, which may both have contributed to the leniency of his sentence. This also looks like an omission.
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Apologies, I did not see this caution before I removed it there. But there is, in fact, an advantage to seeing how the edit goes there. Harris' conviction is old news, but an established part of his history. Any discussion there will be less influenced by recentism.
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Where is the evidence that the police mugshot was taken in
September 2024? The EXIF states 12 September 2024, when Edwards was not in custody, and is more likely a processing date. I'm sure I heard the image described as "at the time of his arrest" on TV today.
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a few moments ago after his sentencing. Personally I do not think it is needed because I feel that it would not add much to the article as a Crown
Copyright fair use image given we already have plenty of CC and freely licenced pictures of him on the page.
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I don't think it matters for fair use, but if we already have a picture of him in the infobox I don't see what a mugshot is going to add except for humiliation of someone who's admitted to committing crimes that will effectively end his public life.
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and the consensus was that we should use plain
English, not the legal phrase. The discussion includes a number of verifiable sources that either discuss this matter, or use a phrase other than "making" when mentioning what Edwards was charged with.
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The guidelines are clear on this issue. If a person's primary source of notability is not as a criminal, the infobox is not used. However much we disapprove of the crimes of
Edwards, Harris etc, it is not suitable to use infobox
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similar and not mention making at all. We don't have to have making in the lead as long as we cleary describe the offence. In the infobox we also have making without explanation, so that might need a parenthetical.
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about this very issue. As far as I'm aware, the consensus hasn't changed - and very likely isn't going to change - that we should use plain
English, rather than the legal name of the offence, in the lead.
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Oh yes, it will probably be a suspended sentence. The BBC source says quite plainly: "He was charged last month and could now face a jail sentence." But then they would, wouldn't they. Perhaps he'll get
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I don't think so. We wikilink a lot of things, and most readers will not click them. The prose on this page should be clear and should not require an understanding of this peculiarity of
English law.
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We've only had one bit of vandalism since the expiry, which was immediately reverted by ClueBot. I don't think there's justification for further protection at this time but we'll keep an eye on it.
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I wasn't worried about the legal phrase being used, I didn't change it one way or the other, I was only concerned about whether the parenthesised re-interpretation of it was reliably sourced. --
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or from the psychiatrist e.g. "concluded
Edwards was at “considerable risk of harm from others” and the risk of taking his own life was “high and significant” if he was imprisoned."?
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The addition of a new source with a very clear quote may now render the Rozenberg article redundant. So happy to remove it if is not deemed to provide any additional explanation.
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It should be linked, and it is linked, but the article prose should still be clear, without a requirement that a reader clicks off the page to understand an obscure legal term.
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Wonder if the BBC will get back the 10 months of salary? About £397,916 by my reckoning (or the cost of my licence fee for the next 2,469 years). Gosh you could almost pay for
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On a related note, perhaps we should change the archive timeframe on this talk page - 14 days seems a little keen for the amount of activity here at the moment.
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to disruption, not as a pre-emptive measure. In that respect, protection is the opposite of blocking, which should only ever be preventative and never punitive.
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Good thought. Although we can set an expiry time when we protect a page, we can't set a start time - i.e. we can't schedule it in advance. Worth reading
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The CPS released it under OGL, I think it's worth including beyond the NFCC (since it's under the OGL) insofar as there's some coverage discussing it. (
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Some good news for Edwards today: UK police mugshots are copyrighted and so are not added to a Knowledge (XXG) article without a good reason that meets
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Does the mugshot really need to be in the article? It is a bit too newsy for me. I nearly removed it, but didn't want to set off a revert war.--
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That will make it more rounded and stop people thinking there was anything improper with the sentence. So I would support that being included
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Self-published sources (including blogs) are permissible when written by reputable (in his case, highly) commentators such as Rozenberg.
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50-50 on this. The previous semi-protection expired on 1 September, but if there are any more silly edits it should be protected again.--
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The translation from the literal wording of the charge to "plain English" surely requires the support of reliable sources. --
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I'm not sure that Harris was notable only for being a criminal. But I don't see any advice about that at Infobox:person.
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Quite agree. Most people will already know what he looks like. His appearance in the mugshot is not radically different.
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It matters because we say it's from September 2024 in the caption. It's also not "fair use", but on Commons as OGL.
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Two relevant talk sections in the archive of the Harris page discuss the infobox. I see you took part in each. See
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The article gives no real indication of the scale of the media coverage surrounding Edwards' sentencing. This
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I had assumed that any material under copyright required a definite date. Does it need only a month and year?
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I think this page should be locked for a while because I think there will be edits which will cross the line.
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Does this matter for its use under "fair use"? Does it's use add anything to the article anyway? Thanks.
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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the
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of his offense - soliciting, receiving and keeping copies of the images. The discussion can be found at
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Apologies, was unaware. No objections. But explanations of what applies in this case are easily found.
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To be fair, the difference between the two images, taken only three years apart, is quite striking.
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He speculates on BBC taking a "more muscular" approach to suspended staff pay in future. So maybe a
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The BBC has said that Edwards has not returned the £200,000 salary that it wanted him to give back.
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and, in a deviation to the BRD convention to BRRD, they told me to bring it here. So here I am...
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as parameters in Infobox:person. I'm not really sure what difference it makes to the reader.
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He's next due to appear in court on 16 September, when he will be sentenced. So prepare to
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It shouldn't be, per the above, and I removed it yesterday. It is not in the article now.
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Also agree. I don't see that the mug shot adds anything to an encyclopaedic article.
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Bearing in mind the guidance you quote, I think I oppose use of that infobox here.
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I don't see it as any kind of "re-interpretation", just plain English explanation.
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I'll go and see if I can remove it from Rolf Harris. In the meantime I note that
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problems. Clearly some BBC staff are annoyed that Edwards was not sacked (unlike
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Is there a difference between "discussing" the image and merely describing it?
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This topic has now been brought more sharply into focus, e.g. the Sky article
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to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
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procedure applies to this article. This article is related to articles about
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doesn't use that infobox, and that was my basis from removing the same from
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This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the
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Not my intention. Any discussion there should focus only on that article.
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No-one else seems to be very worried. But the issue here is to actually
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I've just added a sentencing breakdown and the apology to the article
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Cross-article discussion threads? Not sure that's generally accepted.
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Is the subject of this article to be one of those rare exceptions? --
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to prison, his hands were tied by the current sentencing guidelines.--
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I think we ought to restrict discussion here to Huw Edwards. Thanks.
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includes an explanation of "making" - a better source than substack.
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The article page for official legal term shouldn't be linked at all?
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Also, it cuts off the top of his head! Why would we want to use it?
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And we also can't add criminal convictions to the Infobox:person?
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I notice there's currently a bit of an edit war going on between @
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Not sure if this is notable enough for the article in this form.--
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I'm starting this discussion here before we get the inevitable
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the legal term in all cases, or at least in the lead section?
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Talk:Huw_Edwards/Archive_2#Clarification_of_the_"making"_crime
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Does the documentation say but ignore that if nesting it? --
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Add free-use images to biographical articles where possible
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to Good Article status following previous reviews, create
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography
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If you don't know, I think you ought to check. Thanks.
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There is no consensus to add it. Cut off head, or not.
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at the moment of course. So we can't even mention it.
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Top 20 start-class BBC articles with most importance:
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An alternative to parentheses might be a piped link.
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C-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
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Clearly some TV-licence-payers are also annoyed....
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3037:Looks good to me. Thank you.
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1543:08:06, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
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1189:contentious topics procedures
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461:This article is supported by
297:biographies of living persons
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2675:I can't see it, can you? --
1577:who did nothing illegal). --
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882:Crime and Criminal Biography
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1751:Sirfurboy🏄
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277:Huw Edwards
265:Huw Edwards
260:not a forum
159:free images
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3060:Categories
2952:BBC source
2068:same with
1567:WP:NOTNEWS
1441:WP:CRYSTAL
987:Journalism
978:journalism
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797:Dad's Army
786:assessment
544:BBC Portal
523:BBC portal
273:refactored
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1512:WP:FORUMy
1459:this edit
1183:, or any
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715:BBC Japan
434:Biography
374:Biography
313:libellous
99:if needed
82:Be polite
32:talk page
2579:reverted
2271:I added
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1696:Mug shot
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697:BBC News
691:Copyedit
655:BBC News
645:Improve
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