Talk:Hungary in World War II

1090:

compromise and state "Has a significant Hungarian population" instead, since according to his own words, its basically the same thing. He has yet to reply whether he agrees or disagrees with this. I also provided a source for the 1940 census, since the beginning of our discussion, yet he is still against posting it on the page, favoring the 1930 and 1941 censuses instead. He is also against stating the 55% Yugoslav population in Vojvodina, as the source states, breaking the illusion through omission that the Hungarians were the majority in that region, he refused on the grounds that "I'm playing with words" despite writing only what the source state with no personal interpretation. Even when the source that he himself provided contradicted him, pointing out that its misleading to state the 1941 census without the mention of the Hungarian immigration following the Second Vienna Award, he still refused the edit, yet again wishing to keep the illusion that the Hungarians were the majority in that region through omission. His response is a vague "it's against the policy" without point out specifically what that policy is, despite me already asking him multiple times to point out the policy he thinks I'm breaking. When I asked for a compromise, he replied that the only compromise he agrees with is posting the 1930 census next to the 1941 census, with no mention of the 1940 census, the population of Vojvodina as stated in the source or the mention of mass immigration. At this point, I believe he is filibustering to avoid edits that he doesn't like. We continue our discussion in the

1617:: "We don't know exactly who was in majority, the number of them was near equal". So, we don't know exactly, despite having a census? and even if you disagree with the 1940 census for personal reasons, at least you don't disagree with the 1930 census that clearly showed Romanians as the majority in Northern Transylvaia. So, we have a census we both accept that clearly states the Romanians in the majority, and you still don't know who was in the majority? Then you are like: "And because we don't know, let's assume they were near equal, purely based on what I believe." Isn't that a bit convenient? Why is it "near equal" since you previously admited that "we don't know"? which one is it, do you or do you not know? pick one. 1623:

you said that: "No, because the other ethnics are around 10%". When I asked you: "Do you have any source for this 10% claim, or it's OR?". In a typical manner, you failed to provide any source for that 10% claim, being nothing more than empty words. But that wasn't even the best part. The best part was that it is pretty clear even from your own broken OR argument that the Romanians were the majority, with 48% Romanians (your words, Hitchens' Hungarian version) and 10% other ethnicites (also your words, OR), that leaves only 42% Hungarians in the best case scenario of assuming your OR is true and believing Hungarian sources over Romanian sources. Even using your own "logic", your case doesn't make sense.

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census, see the connection to Hitchins. Even if we only use the 1930 and 1941 censuses, it's fallacious to argue that because the results are nearly inverted (the 1930 showing a Romanian majority while the 1941 shows a Hungarian majority) this must mean that their number was nearly equal in 1940, for multiple reasons: (1) it's the middle ground logical fallacy. (2) There is no listed source to directly state this or imply to it, meaning it's OR. (3) There was a Hungarian migration to Northern Transylvania after the Second Vienna Award when it became part of Hungary, hence the 1941 numbers are not representative for 1940.

1775:, anyway counting or appropriate interpretation of sources is not to be confused with sourcing). The fact that you acknowledged later I provided a source on the matter, is openly readable at the page (we don't need to copy-paste everything twice/more as you do). At this point, not a surprise how anyone would take you serious as well in the future (after again hilariously copy-pasting what I addressed to you, while wishful thinking is again not my attribute, evidence is present), this is just confirming everything I draw the attention.( 1655:, poor-styled copy-paste inverted accusations, reiterated fallacius assumptions/deductions, that have been already discussed and disproved in the other page. Very boring, tendentious and disruptive. I won't give you the chance to also continue this nonsense here, all of my reactions, evidence is present in the other talk page (funny you start to deny again I provided a source, which you denied about five times earlier, but after you had to acknowledge it, now you again tell the opposite, thanks for reaffirming 1725:], what you are talking about now has nothing to do with that (I referred to something 1 month ago, as you did also, huh (!)), so this this just again failed. On the other hand, what you incite here is your own invention based on your own fallacy, because you failed to understand what I have written, in fact you started speculative conclusions on your own about things which was not written (too bad for you that every move is verifiable in this platform). Just 343: 74: 53: 359: 84: 228: 22: 300: 289: 278: 267: 256: 1977: 186: 158: 1744:

The link you posted leads to one of your diffs, I don't think it takes a genius to realise that you can't accuse me that I said you provided a source using one of your diffs as evidence. The situation is simple: you failed to provide a scholarly source for your "divided more or less evenly" claim and

1626:

The fact that we had this discussion and your failed to learn anything, is proof that arguing with you is like playing chess with a pigeon. If anyone has questions or suggestions I'll be glad to answer and discuss. With you, I'm not willing to have the same discussion I prevously had, only for you to

1533:

Far from settling matters, the Vienna Award had exacerbated relations between Romania and Hungary. It did not solve the nationality problem by separating all Magyars from all Romanians. Some 1,150,000 to 1,300,000 Romanians, or 48 per cent to over 50 per cent of the population of the ceded territory,

1230:

did not revert the page to the status quo as the policy requests, but an even earlier edit of his own choosing, from 7th of June. (2) the RFC is binding here because it's exactly the same subject, and we both previously agreed to discuss the matter of both pages there. Please see our discussion above

1108:

No need to repeat yourself twice. We don't know who was the majority that time. I replied to everything. I told what are the problem with the claimed "1940 census" along with broader problems. Sorry, I am able to read a source. And again, nothing contradicted me, this you did after your controversial

584:

I would cite Lucy Dawidowicz, The War Against the Jews, Bantam, 1986, p. 403; Randolph Braham, A Magyarországi Holokauszt Földrajzi Enciklopediája (The Geographic Encyclopedia of the Holocaust in Hungary), Park Publishing, 2006, Vol 1, p. 91; and David Crowe, “The Roma Holocaust,” in Barnard Schwartz

391:

What a sentence, "ancestral enemies": "The thought of these ancestral enemies on Hungarian soil was seen as far worse than German control." With such attitudes it is not so difficult to understand what is going on in Hungary now, with extreme right Jobbik earning much of the votes, and nationalistic

1622:

Really? Hitchins may disagree with you. Hitchins said that the 1940 population in Northern Transylvania was 50% Romanians according to Romanian sources and 48% Romanians according to Hungarian sources. He never said that the other 50% and 52% were Hungarians to be 'near equal'. When I told you this,

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or whatever you try to invent goes to you as you try to connect it to a specific date or other migrations (this is OR, as many other whereabouts could be also taken into account in a 11 year span, to say nothing of as well other ethnics declared differently their ethnicity by possible fear). Again,

1304:

That's all about reality, and what is disruptive. You don't know when you are allowed to edit? It's interesting, you insist you know everything, and others don't. This is your main problem. I have "given consensus" for every wise edit, but not the opposite. Your bludgeoning everywhere and completely

1698:

simply switched to his typical style of ad hoeminems and false accusations after having nothing else to defend his case with. As predicted in the above comment, he offers no evidence or demonstration to back up his strong accusations, his entire text can be read as a list of complains. He is right,

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when you get the same answer. For everyone else, I hope this works as a nice summary of the discussion in the previous RFC. If history repeats itself, the other user will accuse me of fallacious, misleading or selective argumentation or something similar but fail to offer evidence and demonstration

1436:

The current wordage is totally perfect and neutral, no reason to import here problems which were not present. Just because the user's edits in the two pages were similarly problematic and we don't have to discuss twice one subject (= the user's edits are the issues which are practically identical),

1508:

the scholarly sources refer to the official censuses, which results are nearly inverted compared to each other while contrary what was said above, peer reviewed RS leave the question undecided, based on the earlier mentioned as the percentages oscillate near 50%, hence the current wordage is fine,

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talk, where the user insists on using the term "Has a significant Romanian population" despite the population at the time being majoritary Romanian, arguing that the word "significant" is appropriate and neutral designation to any direction. I replied that if he feels that way, then we can reach a

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It is easy. Hungary was a kingdom, but the main representative was not a king but regent admiral Horthy. Of course, it does not mean that Hungary had some sea, it was a landlocked coutry (with some potential territorial demands toward Romania and Slovakia, but these coutries were not enemies, but

1601:

These issues have been already discussed and demonstrated nearly 1 month ago, you make the same identical fallacious argumentation you made previously, not learning from your mistakes, and when I give you the same answer (because reality didn't suddenly change) you complain that I repeat the same

1595:

Last time I checked 1940 - 1930 was 10. And there's no documented migration in that period, the 1930 census is very similar to the 1910, 1919, 1940 and 1948 censuses. Only the 1941 is the odd one. Anyway, unlike your middle ground fallacy, I never said we should use the 1930 census but say "1940"

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I would change this to: “However from the start of German occupation in 1944, Jews and Romas were deported to the Auschwitz Birkenau Concentration and Extermination Camp. By the end of the war, the death toll was between 450,000 and 606,000 Hungarian Jews and an estimated 28,000 Hungarian Roma.”

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Contrary to what was said above, the earlier mentioned (official censuses) don't have the percentages oscillate near 50%. We have the 1940 censues which clearly states: 48% Romanian and 38% Hungarian according to the Hungarian census, and 50% Romanian and 37% Hungarian according to the Romanian

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failed to make a case for why the quotes shouldn't be quoted directly. Only he is active in the discussion at this point. According to policy, when multiple people disagree with you and consensus is against you, you must accept it. Continuing to argue in the face of a clear consensus can be

1851:. When he made the same accusations he repeatedly makes on other pages, dispite substantial evidence of the opposite being clear for everyone to see, I merely gave him the same reply. Once that was done, there was no reason to play his game of off-topic mirror accusations. 1199:

I am not edit warring, I restored the page per policy, by disruption it is evident, check the evidence above. Of course, I will not continue further, you can be fully sure I am aware of our policies and keeping it, as I did so far, so no need to remind me especially. Thank

1039:

article, where the censuses with estimations are presented in the best detail, that is out of scope here (the user is bullying the same partially problematic content on several articles). As an involved admin pointed out everywhere the status quo ante version has to be

1597:

Are you aware of the fact that this could have also happened in 1941? Considering the Hungarian massacres at Treznea and Ip is not far-fetched, but you don't usually see your double-standards. I'm not saying cenuses are perfect, but they are better than

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3. “Anne McCormick, a foreign correspondent for The New York Times, wrote in defense of Hungary as the last refuge of Jews in Europe, declaring that “as long as they exercised any authority in their own house, the Hungarians tried to protect the Jews.”

1620:

Since you keep making the same fallacious accusations that were previously debunked, I can only debunk them again. Let's do it again, this time with Hitchins. "just that is more or less even, which is in comply with the Hitchins quote as well" -:

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evidence is present in the other talk page, that I summarized here. Also for the record: Now he's saying that not only he provided a source, but I acknowledged it. In fact, he didn't even provide a source after I specifically asked him to

1291:(just becuase you do not understand properly some sentences); more alternatives were asked from the community, and as well not understanding RFC policy about consensus, etc., discussion this user continued all the way, mentioning me, etc.) 1231:

this one where we both agree to discuss the matter there. (3) We have already discussed this with 3rd opinions and the discussion is over. Out of 4 participants, three users are in favor of just quoting the census figure directly. User

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talk, where the user have the same problematic edits as in a bunch of pages, refusing to follow our policies. But as you opened this thread, I have to say, the article has been neutral, since it redirected the reader to the

1897:, as I said in the other RfC any parsing or interpretation is rife for original research. Furthermore, splitting hairs over the verbiage associated with the raw figures involves editorial discord and walls of text (^^^^).-- 1594:, please read in the comment you just replied to the multiple reasons why your 1940 near equal theory is not only OR but also improbable. "As many other whereabouts could be also taken into account in a 11 year span" -: --> 1842:

This discussion was already over when the other user started making the same fallacious arguments that were already discussed and disproved in the other page. I'm aware it's impossible to reason with him due to lack of

1585:

Again misleading and fallacious argumentation, I provided 2 sources while you provided nothing. Your opinion alone counts for nothing, although this issue has been already discussed and demonstrated nearly 1 month ago

1534:

depending upon whose statistics are used, remained north of the new frontier, while about 500,000 Magyars (other Hungarian estimates go as high as 800,000, Romanian as low as 363,000) continued to reside in the south.

1065:

Hi, per policy I restored the page for the reasons mentioned above. This also touched your recent edits, which have no problem, they will be readded when the process is closed in the other page's dispute resolution.

1124:

The user just made moficiation to the page referreing to to another RFC, which is not not even closed and not even binding here, on the other hand inserted material that was not even supported or discussed in the

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1. Hitchins' quote is missing. You agreed with posting Hitchins' quote and gave your consensus. Your problem were the other edits. Therefore the version with Hitchins' quote is the status quo one.

1455:, the current wordage is historically inaccurate according to peer reviewed RS, estimations made by editors are subject to novel interpretation, where as the census figures themselves are exact. 1284:

2. just because some parts are similar and we refer to a discussion another page, does not make an RFC binding, which was raised another page, moreove here the content has not been even identical

1790:

I think it's abundantly clear that you two do not agree. Since neither appears to be on the cusp of a change of mind and this is already way off topic, why not cut this exchange off here? —

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Kassa was probably bombed by the German army, since Hitler wanted Hungary to declare war against the Soviets. At those times, the Soviets had no reason to attack the independent Hungary.

1414:. Rather than to argue with him on whether they are idential, I decided to request a separate RFC here in order to avoid further conflict. Please see these 2 diffs for better refference: 1996: 2037: 438:

are actually quite common. As this topic is expanded, it would become incredibly large. Most countries break up their national histories into time periods... for example

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Again misleading and fallacious argumentation, you identify estimations as censuses, although this issue has been already discussed and demonstrated nearly 1 month ago (

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To highlight your flawed style of reasoning, with the exact same words I used 1 month ago, because they are as valid today as they were back then, but you failed to

1094:

talk, which is why we (hopefully) both believe there no need to have the same discussion on 2 different talk pages. Hopefully, we can settle this with a compromise.

1003:

and seek consensus rather than the face sanctions which will undoubtedly be imposed if you continue. Please consider this a friendly attempt at mediation. Thanks, —

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why that is the case, it will be more of a declaration and less of an argument, merely an attempt of filibustering, I don't want to play his game anymore.

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1. “However from the start of German occupation in 1944, Jews and Romas were deported and over 450,000 of them were exterminated in concentration camps.”

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3. again, not knowing WP procedures, no the discussion is not over, (and his summarization again fails, btw., failing to interpret sentences, there is

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I would delete this as POV. Hungary’s treatment of the Jews as compared to Germany’s is dealt with elsewhere in the article in a more factual manner.

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1. Again, you are unable to view diffs appropriately. Status quo ante is the current status (this context, before any of the edits were introduced).

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instead, hence your accusation is misplaced. "To say nothing of as well other ethnics declared differently their ethnicity by possible fear" -: -->

1109:

edit and the Hitchins quote together. I responded to you in detailed extent, just beucase you refuse to undestand and see some thing is not on me.(

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and Frederick DeCoste, eds., The Holocaust's Ghost: Writings on Art, Politics, Law and Education, University of Alberta Press, 2000, pp. 178–210.

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This discussion should not continue, per serious failure of competence, unless you don't see what you are missing continusly, it's useless.(

531: 399: 546: 435: 1987: 1969: 696: 106: 1473:) often subject to various types of manipulation by the authorities who are carrying out the census. What do scholarly sources say? ( 439: 2012: 908:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

442:. If all this was included alongside the entire history of poland, the article would be... a little long. Same goes for Hungary. So 748: 1745:"the other ethnics are around 10%" claim. What you have there is OR and wishful thinking. There is no point beating a dead horse, 591:

I would change this to: “Swedish diplomat Raul Wallenberg saved thousands of Budapest Jews using Swedish protective passports.”

1955: 1705:], he either misunderstood it or is not telling the truth to get things his way, either way, he's putting words into my mouth, 475: 1281:

1. failing again WP:COMPETENCE, unable to check a single diff, not understanding terminologies. The revert is status quo ante.

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would not mean an RFC at one page would affect another one, hence there has been a different content regarding this subject.(

560: 97: 58: 878: 1478: 973: 898: 843: 33: 1590:, as usual). The middle ground logical fallacy is very real, I suggest you google it to understand it. Again fail to 1326:

3. Out of 4 users, 3 already gave their opinion on the matter. What you have there is a monologue not a discussion.

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2. “A heroic Swedish diplomat, Raul Wallenberg, was able to smuggle some Jews out of Hungary with fake passports.”

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I agree this discussion is useless to be continued. In fact, since the evidence is clear, it is not anymore about

1701:], let alone by his own initiative, can you notice any source mentioned in his response when asked for a source? 1256:

is doing now. At what point am I allowed to edit the page in accordance to RFC's decision? Please note that user

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

799:

to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

1723:

Sorry, your blurb again to put on me what in fact what you do will not lead anywhere. I was talking about this

739:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070203003152/http://www.usc.edu/libraries/archives/arc/libraries/sfa/hungary.html

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https://web.archive.org/web/20041204184436/http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/IBS076.pdf

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3. No, everybody gave an opninion (again unability to interpret written things, checking diffs), and sorry

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2. Just because you introduced similar modifications without consensus, does not approve your assumptions.

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Aha, so you have the bravado to try to explain out yourself with an impossible straw-man argumentation ("

1323:

2. They are not similar, it's the exact same information on the same subject, just in different articles.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

806: 642: 39: 869:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 742: 729:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit 1965: 1844: 1656: 1652: 773: 692: 463: 395: 892: 467: 21: 1951: 1404:

or just quote the census figures directly in the article? An RFC on the same subject was made here

1030:

thank you for your feedback. As pointed out as well to the admins at AN3, the discussion is at the

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

1991: 1935: 1921: 1852: 1837: 1808: 1792: 1750: 1710: 1676: 1668: 1637: 1632: 1607: 1567: 1540: 1456: 1419: 1327: 1265: 1217: 1191: 1174: 1159: 1095: 1022: 1005: 992: 668: 443: 431: 933:

before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

749:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070701005927/http://www.terra.es/personal7/jqvaraderey/194145fc.gif

1531:

one scholarly source already listed on Knowledge is Keith Hitchins, who states the following -

949: 819: 1825: 1780: 1734: 1684: 1664: 1575: 1514: 1442: 1376: 1310: 1205: 1130: 1114: 1071: 1045: 634: 599: 1898: 1848: 1660: 1628: 1614: 1603: 1591: 1587: 1554: 1474: 638: 342: 956: 826: 630: 527: 1820:, but serious issues from one side. Support cutoff, I hope at least this will be mutual.( 752: 574:

I propose to make some revisions to this article. The main changes would be as follows.

1566:, which is in comply with the Hitchins quote as well. Hope you won't continue identical 1305:

false identification of the happenings are striking and highly concenrning, since ever.(

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linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

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For the record, these were already discussed but not disproved in the other page. User

915:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 785:, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by 500: 89: 1703:]. I never said he provided a source, this is easily verifiable on the other RFC page 1509:

anyway this article's scope is outside the details, just concise reference is enough.(

1412:"given Hungary at WW2 articles's issues are practically identical with HU Irr article" 955:

If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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https://web.archive.org/web/20131009164804/http://m30afilms.com/page2/page8/page8.html

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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https://web.archive.org/web/20070704124820/http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=36

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when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an

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insists the RFC is not over but none of the 3 users has anything else to add, and

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on this page. I suggest strongly that you discuss whatever changes are at issue

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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 12 § Hungarian Soviet War

921:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 791:. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than 79: 902: 618: 1976: 1278:

Now everyone may see again the problematic phenomenon to be justifified:

427: 414: 102: 1631:, and then spam your previous mistakes, only to act shocked and spam 1410:(please, see the page edit comments) despite previously arguing that 1168:

be blocked irrespective of which of you is in the right. Please read

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http://www.usc.edu/libraries/archives/arc/libraries/sfa/hungary.html

499:, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the 392:

Orban in power, they simply cannot overcome their own ghosts....

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http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/IBS076.pdf

1557:, as usual). 49 - 38 / 39,1 - 53,5 are nearly inverted results, 520:

That this article is linked to from the image description page.

1402:"divided more or less evenly between Hungarians and Romanians" 15: 1602:

thing, without even taking a look at yourself, who fails to

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the

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on the image's description page for the use in this article.

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Is there a reason this article isn't simply included within

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pointed out, we are currently discussing this issue on the

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we don't know exatly what was the situation, just that is

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

1982: 1408:"it not bounding here and the issue is a bit different" 996: 726: 753:

http://www.terra.es/personal7/jqvaraderey/194145fc.gif

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Image copyright problem with Image:Turan I - 1944.gif

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to determine whether its use and function meets the

1164:, if you continue to edit war on this page you will 239:

This article has been checked against the following

101:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 925:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 795:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 324: 238: 1469:Census figures are not "exact", but (at least in 1610:while projecting his own faults on other people. 545:I have raised an issue about the history of the 883:http://www.m30afilms.com/page2/page8/page8.html 911:This message was posted before February 2018. 781:This message was posted before February 2018. 530:. For assistance on the image use policy, see 426:Well, it definitely shouldn't be part of the 8: 1771:" was not the subject of the issue referred 1248:considered disruptive. This is exactly what 2038:Military historiography task force articles 1709:. Thanks for reaffirming your true colors. 903:http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=36 690: 645:was the last crowned King of Hungary, but 555:. Any help would be very welcome. Thanks, 321: 235: 152: 47: 861:I have just modified 3 external links on 721:I have just modified 2 external links on 495:is used in this article under a claim of 2033:B-Class military historiography articles 1675:, I have no interest in your repetitive 446:will eventually be properly edited into 430:article, so I assume you're meaning the 191:This article is within the scope of the 1627:make fallacious argumentation, fail to 1406:], however, the other user argues that 154: 49: 19: 1895:Just quote the census figures directly 1453:Just quote the census figures directly 549:during WWII : you may read about this 211:Knowledge:WikiProject Military history 201:. To use this banner, please see the 770:to let others know (documentation at 629:Good question. In fact, there was no 214:Template:WikiProject Military history 7: 570:Proposed revisions re. Jews and Roma 95:This article is within the scope of 532:Knowledge:Media copyright questions 38:It is of interest to the following 351:Military historiography task force 14: 2028:B-Class military history articles 1915:Quote the census figures directly 865:. Please take a moment to review 725:. 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