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confirmed deaths. We cannot say the 50 reported bodies recovered from the ocean are not part of the 48 confirmed if we don't have explicit confirmation of this. The passage of time has rendered that assumption invalid. This applies to all reported deaths that were made before updates to certified deaths. The certification process for deaths is known to take time. We can still include mention of reported deaths but they must be given appropriate context of when they were reported in relation to official tolls. We
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891:. It states that there's an additional 50 deaths, but that seems unofficial given that when translated to English, it states "casting doubt on the Mexican government's official figure, which reports only 27 people killed by the storm." In my opinion, I would update when the additional deaths are officially confirmed, but it seems like it isn't for now.
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The NPR article says they're not counted in the official tally. This is definitely comparable as a subincident of the disaster that happened at one place and time. Combined with media-reported skepticism of the official tallies, and your oft-ignored fact that there is quite literally no reason not to
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Again, you're assuming mutual exclusivity without clear evidence. You're also making an assumption that the death certification process happens in bulk and all 50 bodies were processed and certified at the same time. Bodies can arrive at the morgue simultaneously and be certified at different times.
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the 48. You're making a further assumption that none of the 20 deaths seen by the person in the NPR article were included in the 50 reported "across the city". The article does not mention "70" at any point. And even then, the information will once again be outdated once the official toll updates. ~
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states the 50 were not included as of
October 28 when the Government reported 27 deaths. Since then there have been another 21 certified deaths. The information is outdated, full stop. There has to be evidence that states none of the 50 deaths confirmed at the time of this discussion are included in
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At first the casualties section was appropriately written with sources explicitly saying reported deaths were not included in official tolls. However, since then there have been updates to the official tally and assumptions are being made that the reported deaths are still being excluded from the 48
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I don't want to start an edit war but the source that was linked for the damages doesn't look concrete. The source itself does not mention that it is confirmed that the damage totals exceed 1B$ USD, only that it COULD reach to 15B$ USD. Nothing in the article itself is stating that the costs are
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here. It's not right to (A) make the assumption that various unofficial tallies of body recoveries do not overlap or to (B) sum them up and present it as an alternative possible death toll, even outside the lead for the infobox. More clarity regarding casualties will likely come with time. All the
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It is still not mathematically possible for them to have been included because they would've all been included. Once the official death toll reaches something where that is no longer the case (i.e. at least 77), then there's an argument to be made that it's outdated; until then, there is not. It's
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are included because X is greater than Y. That's not a valid argument when context is of utmost importance here. The reported deaths from a plane crash are an entirely different situation as there is a definitive list of potential victims and simple math can be used. That is not the case here with
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You're making an incredible leap to assume not a single person of those 50, reported when the official toll was 27, have not been included in the 48. The numbers are not mutually exclusive and without the source explicitly saying none of the 50 deaths have been confirmed you cannot make a separate
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To quote
Masters: "This means that the most heavily developed areas of Acapulco (population just over 1 million) received the more powerful right-front winds of Otis, perhaps setting a record for the largest number of people ever to experience the eyewall of a Cat 5 storm. The only comparable case
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There is something wrong, namely that we should not include redundant years that needlessly take up space. Note that the meteorological history section begins with a full date and does not use the year again, which is amply sufficient to establish 2023 as the year. This content will not be used
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doesn't require a year in a date. In fact, all of the "WP:" and "MOS:" articles are guidelines, not requirements. However, if someone were to read only a portion of the article that contains dates without the years, or extract it for use somewhere else (in this case, say an article like
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I agree that Andrew should be included in the "See also" section, but how about
Hurricane David and Typhoon Angela? Shouldn't they be included as well, given the fact that those two tropical cyclones were both Category 5s when they crossed Santo Domingo and Metro Manila respectively?
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The $ 15 billion is not a direct damage estimate. The sources I see fall short of claiming explicitly that $ 15 billion worth of property damage has occurred and therefore it is not possible for us to make bold claims like it being the most expensive Mexico or
Pacific hurricane yet
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No. Give another example where a Cat 5 struck a densely populated area with many high-rise buildings. Andrew also was extremely similar meteorologically, much more so than other
Category 5 hurricanes: exact same winds at landfall, pressure only one millibar different, very similar
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48, it is mathematically impossible for the rescuers' story to have been included and given that the 16 hospital deaths were of a cause different from water suffocation (drowning; that's what the government has described it as), they can't possibly have been included either.
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does not apply without ample confirmation that the numbers are mutually exclusive. Just because 50 is greater than 48 it does not mean the 50 is entirely separate from the 48. The hospital deaths are a different situation as those were outright denied by the government. ~
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Andrew is the only other
Category 5 hurricane to impact such a large metropolitan area at Category 5 intensity. Both were small but powerful storms of very similar size and both caused similarly devastating impacts. Your "totally irrelevant" does not stand up to scrutiny.
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I didn't change anything listed here other than remove the level 3 header, which I removed because I wanted to combine the paragraph with the deaths with general nationalwide statisics like I usually do when writing articles. I adhered to all your content principles.
1744:, the information would be ambiguous and/or misleading if not totally incorrect. There is nothing wrong with using the full date, including the year any place a date is used. Including the year enhances the overall clarity of Knowledge (XXG) articles.
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is a source. Not sure it is notable enough to be mentioned though, and in any case this record will not stand in post-analysis since 12z was revised upwards to 65 knots, cutting the intensification from 70 to 60 knots, and probably less in
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Regarding damage(s): does anyone have a source that could provide suitable images for use on
Wikimedia Commons? I would think that a subject of this magnitude would warrant one or two good images of the impact in Acapulco and its environs.
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There is no reason bodies would not be reported until they are identified, considering there will be many that won't be, so there is no reason these will be only included in part by the government. Therefore, as 50 :
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If the only things necessary for a storm to be relevant to Otis are "Category 5" and "struck a large metropolitan area as a category 5" then there are at least a dozen more storms that can be added to See Also.
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Contact the photographers of images you've seen and ask them if they'd be willing to upload the images to
Commons. You are almost certainly not going to find public domain or Creative Commons images anywhere.
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But the point of separating the casualties is due to the variation in death tolls and skepticism over the official one, so I don't think the paragraph should be combined. That's what we've agreed upon here.--
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It’s a weird way of writing it for sure. I’ve similar things expressed in the format of 200 y 300 mil millones. I guess it would be fine if that is correct. I for sure would never write that way in French.
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This is a sensible stance, and as always care should be taken to faithfully represent reported information. There is no detailed enumeration of who and where the fatalities were, and cause of death, as
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anywhere else on
Knowledge (XXG) that will not specify 2023. Convention in WPTC articles has always been to not redundantly add years to dates in storm articles, so you will need to discuss this at
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The report doesn't even say the bodies were sent to a morgue, they just said they were found. There are far too many uncertainties and pieces to make such a claim with such confidence. ~
1249:"unofficial" tally. The 50 bodies recovered do not have a marked cause of death, they were just found in the water which can happen from various means in a multifaceted natural disaster.
629:"The government has so far not estimated the cost of Otis, but Enki Research, which tracks tropical storms and models the cost of their damage, saw it "likely approaching $ 15 billion.""
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1 billion per the
Reuters source stating Otis caused billions in damage. I feel that would be a good starting point here and can always be changed later as new information comes out.
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The intro paragraphs are lacking some sources IMO, only having one that I've added at the moment. But I feel like most sources should be able to be found elsewhere in the article?
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In Acapulco, Otis claimed at least 27 lives according to the local governor's tally issued on Thursday, which has not been updated. It has also caused widespread destruction and
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1 billion. There is no need for something to be "confirmed". That is an over-complication of the matter since costs are never entirely confirmed but are merely estimates.
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I went ahead and added it. I have that other agencies have upped estimates to 14-21 billion USD so this is probably fine for now until we get a better number to use.
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It is without an explicit statement that none of the 50 deaths were officially confirmed in the three days since they were reported. You're inherently assuming that
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As a compromise, I think we can add a "disputed" after the 27 and then add a "Casualties" subsection to the impacts describing this dispute. At this time it is
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I undid your edits in accordance with this section. Not only did your edits go against the conclusion of the above discussion but you failed to actually
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count the 50 (actually 70) bodies in whole, your argument does not stand. At this point, unless the others in this thread agree, your only option is a
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Thanks for fixing my addition error, but we cannot give 105 as an upper bound because there are very likely still more casualties to be counted.--
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that requires us to redundantly repeat the year in every single date on this page. In fact, the MOS page gives examples of dates without years.
1441:, but its placement here to suggest that they add in a mutually exclusive manner to a death toll of 141 (which is not listed anywhere) violates
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Problem is it just says between 200 thousand to 300 billion pesos will be required to rebuild or up to 300 billion earlier at the start.
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confirmed. Unless I am misreading it, if so please quote directly where it states that the costs are confirmed to exceed over 1B$ USD @
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1926:? Yeah, you have to parse that as "between (200,000 and 300,000) million", ie 200 bn to 300 bn. 200k pesos isn't enough for a new car.
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There are plenty that are merely parroting the government figures, which I've updated for, but if they do so we have to do so as well (
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I looked at the Spanish wikipedia page on Hurricane Otis. It also says there have been 80 deaths but the link to the source is broken.
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prob would be good to update any info on the storm with what the NHC has said in the TCR, and also list it at the bottom as a source.
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Acording to the US Naval Research Laboratory, there seemes to be 18 houors of explosion intensity from 10/24 12:00 to 10/25 6:00.――
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I'd wait till the government's estimate comes out or some new source comes out with a preliminary estimate to put a damage cost (
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may be Hurricane Andrew of 1992, which hit South Florida as a Cat 5 with 165 mph winds." No other storm meets that criterion.--
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We could say it was unknown at the time how many (if any) of the 50 deaths may be included in the official government figure.
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was originally in favor of this, they should also weigh in, but you're going to need a change of consensus to remove it.--
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unofficial report by a Mexican soldier saying his unit had recovered 1 body and that local officials recovered 6 others
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make a statement of total deaths adding up reported deaths on top of the official tally, it's a blatant violation of
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No, because neither brought the core to the downtown skyline, and they were not as meteorologically similar.--
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https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/mexico-clears-up-wreckage-hurricane-otis-counts-cost-damage-2023-10-26/
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The 12 hour explosion intensify record was never mentioned in the article, can someone write them?
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CoreLogic has put out an estimated range only for insurable wind damage of $ 10-15 billion
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it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
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Ok, I'll restore that header because I don't wanna get into a dispute that is basically
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for consistency. Also, your argument could be used to establish that articles like the
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I can only find sources stating that there have been 27 deaths from Hurricane Otis.
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I'm not sure about it's notability, but it might be usable for a damage estimate.
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unlikely we are going to agree; wait until others comment to proceed further.--
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do we mention it in the $ damage totals as "≥ 1.7 billion (USD)" ? there are
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as a damage total instead? It's the most concrete number I've seen so far.
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explicitly indicate whether these were part of the "official" death toll. —
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need to have the year in every date as well, which is clearly unwieldy.--
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Please discuss here and gain consensus before recombining the sections.--
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for the updated death toll, and left a hidden note for future updating.
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A news item involving Hurricane Otis was featured on Knowledge (XXG)'s
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would the 1.7 billion spent in relief count towards dmg totals in $ ?
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arguing and calculation will probably be redundant in a few days.
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Yes, that seems to be in line with Knowledge (XXG) guidelines.
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over 1 million people affected. You cannot compare the two. ~
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That's not an incredible assumption by any means. In a
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weight to say this is definitively the death toll.--
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https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/data/tcr/EP182023_Otis.pdf
1604:
Sorry, "explosion intensity" is not a thing here.--
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2101:. Anything there worth including in the article?
1445:. As an aside, a quick glance at the source for
850:I've changed it back to 27 deaths as there is no
2099:commons:Category:Impact of Hurricane Otis (2023)
33:for general discussion of the article's subject.
2010:Semi-protected edit request on 1 November 2023
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1963:entre 200 y 300 mil millones de pesos
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1835:Damage totals source is questionable
557:This article is within the scope of
347:This article is within the scope of
1683:Ah, that makes sense, my apologies
1524:Relief is relief.. it's not damage
408:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Weather
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2183:B-Class Pacific hurricane articles
1887:Anyone have any issues with using
1512:and it's mentioned in the article
577:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Mexico
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1817:There are actually over 30: see
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2111:03:41, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
571:and see a list of open tasks.
490:This article is supported by
469:WikiProject Tropical cyclones
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411:Template:WikiProject Weather
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620:Possible damage estimation
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211:
66:Assume good faith
43:
2215:
2077:if appropriate.
2065:
2064:
2035:
2031:
2021:
2020:
2014:
1985:
1947:
1911:
1876:
1861:
1847:
1816:
1713:
1693:
1692:
1672:
1665:
1652:
1651:
1622:post-analysis.--
1603:
1561:
1530:
1516:
1458:
1448:
1279:
1175:
1152:
1117:
1094:
1068:
1045:
1004:
997:
991:: That'll work.
970:
939:
904:
897:
867:
860:
831:80 deaths listed
740:
715:
707:
683:
585:
584:
581:
578:
575:
554:
549:
548:
547:
538:
531:
530:
525:
517:
510:
463:
458:
457:
456:
416:
415:
414:Weather articles
412:
409:
406:
344:
339:
338:
328:
321:
320:
315:
312:
297:
290:
273:
267:
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179:
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95:Article policies
16:
2223:
2222:
2218:
2217:
2216:
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2212:
2143:
2142:
2118:
2095:
2075:reliable source
2062:
2033:
2029:
2018:
2012:
1981:
1943:
1907:
1872:
1855:
1846:zoey (trooncel)
1837:
1810:
1785:
1707:
1705:
1688:
1684:
1668:
1659:
1647:
1643:
1640:
1638:Unsourced intro
1597:
1571:AveryTheComrade
1557:
1545:
1526:
1515:zoey (trooncel)
1506:
1490:AveryTheComrade
1469:
1454:
1273:
1174:zoey (trooncel)
1167:so far we have
1146:
1111:
1088:
1062:
1039:
1000:
993:
956:
933:
900:
893:
863:
856:
852:reliable source
833:
758:AveryTheComrade
737:AveryTheComrade
734:
732:
711:
701:
677:
622:
583:Mexico articles
582:
579:
576:
573:
572:
550:
545:
543:
523:
498:High-importance
474:High-importance
459:
454:
452:
430:High-importance
413:
410:
407:
404:
403:
402:
378:Become a Member
340:
333:
314:High‑importance
313:
310:Eastern Pacific
303:
271:
250:Knowledge (XXG)
239:26 October 2023
237:
208:
207:
202:
121:
116:
115:
114:
91:
61:
12:
11:
5:
2221:
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2200:
2195:
2190:
2185:
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2175:
2170:
2165:
2160:
2155:
2145:
2144:
2123:
2117:
2114:
2094:
2091:
2090:
2089:
2073:and provide a
2042:
2041:
2022:
2011:
2008:
2007:
2006:
2005:
2004:
2003:
2002:
2001:
2000:
1999:
1998:
1997:
1996:
1995:
1994:
1922:Where it says
1842:Hurricane Noah
1836:
1833:
1832:
1831:
1784:
1781:
1780:
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1778:
1777:
1704:
1701:
1700:
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1639:
1636:
1635:
1634:
1633:
1632:
1619:Phil Klotzbach
1616:
1615:
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1544:
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1468:
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1373:
1199:
1198:
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1164:
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1106:
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1083:
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1057:
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930:
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923:
832:
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781:
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724:
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673:
621:
618:
615:
614:
611:
610:
607:
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599:Mid-importance
595:
589:
588:
586:
569:the discussion
556:
555:
539:
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524:Mid‑importance
518:
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501:
488:
478:
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465:
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420:
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364:
346:
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342:Weather portal
329:
317:
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82:
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68:
62:
60:
59:
48:
39:
38:
35:
34:
28:
25:Hurricane Otis
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
2220:
2209:
2206:
2204:
2201:
2199:
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2176:
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2169:
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2140:
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2127:
2126:
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2104:
2100:
2092:
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2084:
2080:
2076:
2072:
2068:
2060:
2059:
2058:
2057:
2053:
2049:
2039:
2036:parameter to
2027:
2023:
2016:
2015:
2009:
1993:
1990:
1986:
1984:
1978:
1977:
1976:
1972:
1968:
1964:
1960:
1959:El Financiero
1957:
1956:
1955:
1952:
1948:
1946:
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1938:
1937:
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1929:
1925:
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1920:
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1800:
1796:
1792:
1783:few citations
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1511:
1503:
1499:
1495:
1491:
1486:
1485:
1484:
1483:
1479:
1475:
1474:CapeVerdeWave
1466:
1462:
1459:
1457:
1451:
1444:
1440:
1436:
1433:
1430:
1426:
1425:Cyclonebiskit
1421:
1409:
1405:
1401:
1396:
1395:Cyclonebiskit
1392:
1386:
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1378:
1374:
1372:
1368:
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1363:Cyclonebiskit
1359:
1358:
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1340:
1336:
1335:Cyclonebiskit
1331:
1327:
1326:
1325:
1322:
1319:
1315:
1310:
1309:
1308:
1304:
1300:
1299:Cyclonebiskit
1295:
1291:
1290:
1289:
1286:
1283:
1277:
1271:
1267:
1266:
1265:
1261:
1257:
1256:Cyclonebiskit
1252:
1247:
1246:
1245:
1242:
1239:
1235:
1228:
1227:
1226:
1225:
1221:
1217:
1216:Cyclonebiskit
1213:
1209:
1205:
1195:
1192:
1189:
1185:
1181:
1180:
1179:
1176:
1170:
1166:
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1128:
1125:
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1058:
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1038:
1036:
1032:
1028:
1025:Sounds good!
1024:
1022:
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984:
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552:Mexico portal
542:
540:
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528:
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519:
516:
512:
499:
496:(assessed as
495:
494:
484:
480:
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475:
472:(assessed as
471:
470:
462:
451:
444:
440:
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431:
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396:
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389:
386:
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363:for details.
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123:Find sources:
120:
119:
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110:Verifiability
108:
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101:
98:
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83:
81:
78:
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52:Learn to edit
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41:
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37:
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26:
22:
18:
17:
2128:
2122:
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2045:
2037:
2026:edit request
1982:
1962:
1944:
1923:
1908:
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1838:
1789:— Preceding
1786:
1715:
1706:
1669:
1641:
1558:
1554:
1527:
1507:
1470:
1456:TheAustinMan
1455:
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1293:
1203:
1200:
1001:
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894:
864:
857:
834:
733:
712:
645:
634:Mobius Gerig
631:
628:
623:
598:
558:
491:
467:
429:
383:Project Talk
361:project page
354:
348:
282:WikiProjects
230:
229:
184:
171:
165:
157:
150:
144:
138:
132:
122:
94:
19:This is the
2116:TCR Dropped
2103:Moscow Mule
1967:Moscow Mule
1928:Moscow Mule
1823:Jasper Deng
1769:Jasper Deng
1724:Jasper Deng
1624:Jasper Deng
1606:Jasper Deng
1600:Phoenix7777
1585:Phoenix7777
1350:Jasper Deng
1318:Jasper Deng
1282:Jasper Deng
1270:plane crash
1238:Jasper Deng
1188:Jasper Deng
1155:Jasper Deng
1114:Jasper Deng
1097:Jasper Deng
1091:Yellow Evan
1065:Jasper Deng
1048:Jasper Deng
1042:Yellow Evan
989:Jasper Deng
977:Jasper Deng
946:Jasper Deng
813:Jasper Deng
786:Jasper Deng
773:Jasper Deng
744:Jasper Deng
704:Jasper Deng
691:Jasper Deng
680:TC Animates
236:section on
232:In the news
148:free images
31:not a forum
2147:Categories
2030:|answered=
1867:in damages
1746:Truthanado
1710:Truthanado
1400:Penitentes
1120:WP:ILIKEIT
388:Assessment
2067:Not done:
1714:There is
1149:Quake1234
226:Main Page
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2129:Blueony
2079:Cannolis
1858:Trooncel
1813:1pameroo
1803:contribs
1795:1pameroo
1791:unsigned
1720:MOS:DATE
1686:Karagone
1662:Karagone
1645:Karagone
1450:does not
1443:WP:SYNTH
1435:contribs
1212:WP:SYNTH
973:WP:UNDUE
963:Tails Wx
799:Vida0007
306:Tropical
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2131:Blueony
1761:WT:WPTC
1737:WP:DATE
1716:nothing
1559:Vệ Thần
1439:WP:CALC
1251:WP:CALC
1234:WP:CALC
965:, and
942:WP:CITE
771:size.--
663:MCRPY22
601:on the
432:on the
405:Weather
393:A-Class
356:weather
301:Weather
272:B-class
228:in the
154:WP refs
142:scholar
1826:(talk)
1772:(talk)
1727:(talk)
1627:(talk)
1609:(talk)
1353:(talk)
1321:(talk)
1285:(talk)
1241:(talk)
1204:cannot
1191:(talk)
1184:WP:DUE
1158:(talk)
1100:(talk)
1051:(talk)
980:(talk)
949:(talk)
816:(talk)
789:(talk)
776:(talk)
747:(talk)
694:(talk)
687:WP:NOR
574:Mexico
565:Mexico
521:Mexico
398:Alerts
278:scale.
126:Google
2034:|ans=
2024:This
1703:Dates
1377:Tajjc
1314:WP:3O
1208:WP:OR
1027:Tajjc
995:Tails
959:Tajic
913:Tajjc
895:Tails
876:Tajjc
858:Tails
837:Tajjc
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2135:talk
2107:talk
2083:talk
2052:talk
1983:Noah
1971:talk
1945:Noah
1932:talk
1909:Noah
1889:this
1874:Noah
1799:talk
1750:talk
1670:Noah
1589:talk
1575:talk
1528:Noah
1494:talk
1478:talk
1429:talk
1404:talk
1381:talk
1367:chat
1339:chat
1328:The
1303:chat
1294:none
1260:chat
1220:chat
1214:. ~
1210:and
1186:).--
1031:talk
1017:talk
917:talk
880:talk
841:talk
803:talk
762:talk
713:Noah
689:).--
667:talk
648:talk
638:talk
424:High
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2097:At
2032:or
1718:in
1316:.--
1230:-->
593:Mid
176:TWL
2149::
2137:)
2109:)
2085:)
2054:)
2038:no
1989:AA
1987:,
1973:)
1951:AA
1949:,
1934:)
1915:AA
1913:,
1880:AA
1878:,
1805:)
1801:•
1752:)
1690:🗨
1676:AA
1674:,
1649:🗨
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1577:)
1534:AA
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1002:Wx
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308:/
304::
156:)
54:;
2133:(
2105:(
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1893:Y
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1856:@
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284::
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191:1
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172:·
166:·
158:·
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139:·
133:·
128:(
58:.
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