1933:, it must be noted that none of these changes are made without the backing of reliable sources; even if they are uncomfortable, uncomfortable facts are still facts, and that information, quite relevant to this page, needs inclusion. It cannot be said, in the lead, that (according to some singular, obscure researcher, of course) there is no correlation between immigration and crime, while later in the page it is revealed that the data is actually seriously conflicting between countries, with some countries seeing immigrant criminality that is overwhelmingly disproportionate. This is a flagrant violation of WP:weight when honestly evaluating the data, and though I will admit that my changes could be altered to some degree to achieve a more perfectly unbiased reflection of said data, I do defend the notion that some changes need to be made. What say you?
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found. It also does not try to contextualize the numbers in any more statistically significant way such as the percentage of people who live in countries where immigration is associated with crime. Denmark and Sweden are technically more countries (2) than the US even though their population is far less. There are many statistical issues with the conclusion and I do not think it should be given very much weight in
Knowledge (XXG).
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716:, which countries have reliable secondary sources (such as meta-analyses) saying that immigration increases crime? When I found this article it cited maybe 2 primary sources from 2 different countries from 20 years ago that showed some correlation, not causation. That certainly should not be in the lead, and certainly not synthesized to make any broader claims outside of those studies.
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putting into broader context its findings, admitting as much. This is a useful primary source, but not one we should include in the lead with only 2 citations so far, neither of which evaluate the paper or its claims. The lead should be reserved more for meta-analyses (if we can find them) or conclusions supported in the individual sections.
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The prison population is the variable referred to in this assertion that they used to assess crime rates. I added that to the text to be precise - they did not evaluate crime rates, just prison populations. I hear you on wanting it rebutted by secondary sources but without being able to see the data,
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BTW, "simply reflect a correlation". Correlation in which way? Between immigration and overall crime (A), or immigrants and their respective crime rates (B)? Because the former - as you have already described - doesn't show much causation - but the latter, as the "Worldwide" section states, describes
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Cormier is a secondary source. I agree it would be helpful to see what he is referencing more specifically and will add that. I can keep finding more secondary sources, but have not found one so far that claims a significant link between the two despite the suggestion made by this article or specific
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These are raw data, not refined to isolate any variables or contextualize it. We can fill up a section with raw data but that is not the question that people want to know - they want to know whether immigration increase crime and if so by how much. Even if immigration does increase crime, there is a
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We all agree that we need to discuss how some countries have crime statistics with proportionately more immigrants, but the reason most studies cannot establish causation that immigrants commit more crimes is many and also need explaining in that paragraph (see
Worldwide section for the long list of
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The "Worldwide" section implies that there is often a positive being immigrants and rates of crime "Even if higher crime is reported among immigrant communities, that could simply reflect a correlation..." The notion - and very often fact - of higher crime being reported among immigrants (regardless
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Disagree re: primary vs. secondary sources, per: "For example, a review article that analyzes research papers in a field is a secondary source for the research." Because they are conducting an original analysis of data (not analyzing much research), the claims about their findings of their analysis
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crime, but the causations of immigrants comparatively committing higher-or-lower rates of crime. I.e., a different scope of causation. I don't see why the latter point should be excluded; i.e., "rates of crime among immigrants" and how it relates to "a relationship between criminal activity and the
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The OECD study covers most of the ones with good data in this article (and some with less high-quality data). Bigger countries tend to have bigger sample sizes and better data, though not always. The U.S. is intended as an example to illustrate the OECD study findings but there is certainly room to
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Immigrants are over-represented, as described in these sources = higher rates of crime among immigrants. Also, that is an important distinction. We need to distinguish between immigration's effect on the overall crime rate with the rates of crime associated with immigrants. Both evidently appear to
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The conclusion is what seems cherry-picked after looking at the data - it makes it sound like the US is the only outlier (what about NZ, AUS, UK, and the dozens you cannot see because of the chart clutter). The article does not even attempt to say how many countries fit this correlation that they
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The
Economist is a newspaper and not a peer-reviewed journal. It's generally a reliable source and normally it wouldn't be much of a problem. However in this case I believe we need a better source. The Economist article was published 6 years ago and a lot of research has been produced since then.
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Causation of immigrants committing more crime is literally explained there? You seem to be focused on immigration's effect on the overall crime rate (say causation A) as opposed to rates of crime associated with immigrants (say causation B). Causation B is quite literally what I just quoted. This
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The charts listed in certain sections offer raw data that has not been peer-reviewed, no attempt has been made to isolate other causal variables or even contextualized for the variables that are not. These charts, in my opinion, provide undue weight to the narrative that immigrants create crime,
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compared to natives, as measured by the relative incarceration rate of the two groups. In addition, certain kinds of immigrants, including young and less-educated men and those with irregular legal status, display a much higher propensity to commit crimes than those with documented status. These
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The U.S. has the most reliable data and so is given more prominence in the lead. If you have great meta-analyses and secondary sources of Europe (similar population size to US) then that would deserve equal weight in my opinion. You still need to prove that Sweden indicates higher rates of crime
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Now, that should quite clearly encompass a (A) potential relationship between immigration and overall crime rates - i.e., does a rise in immigration increase (causation) overall crime - or not. But I think it is also quite clear that "relationship between criminal activity and the phenomenon of
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Thanks for pointing that out - I have tried to clean that up the 'Worldwide' section a bit to make it clearer and more organized. I agree it should have some mention in the lead. I think we add a paragraph summarizing correlations as well as 'perceptions' section. Am feeling more comfortable in
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I changed attribution to 'A 2024 article.' It does not argue to be a definitive meta-analysis of studies but is a single analysis that reaches rather weak conclusions on a limited set of countries, finding effects mostly in smaller european countries. It also has trouble isolating variables or
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I am not saying you did, I am saying that is how what you wrote could easily be interpreted, which is why the ordering is very important here to say from the outset that causation has not been proven before listing correlation studies and statistics (which I agree are probably worth including)
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immigration" also refers to, for instance, the rates of crime being greater - or lesser - in immigrant groups compared to other groups (B). The causation for this could be due to poverty, racism, police brutality, among other things, that, in some countries whereby immigrants commit higher
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I think we disagree on what the meaning of the correlation in immigrants being overrepresented in crime statistics means. It previously was implied to mean that immigrants commit more crimes by being given undue weight (and improper synthesis). I removed that misleading language and poor
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This is technically true but there are other issues with it. The lead should summarise the article in a neutral way. Why do you think that this article published in a relatively low-impact
Croatian journal (Economic Research-Ekonomska Istraživanja) represents the scholarly consensus?
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No, Lindberg describes the general discourse and states that it's wrong (without much elaboration), whereas the next sentences describes the actual meat of the article; "Those with immigrant background are over-represented in
Swedish crime statistics". That's much more of a summary.
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For instance, the source of
Cormier states that immigrants are less like to commit crimes in just about every country. Whereas, we have country-by-country sources showing immigrants committing more crime. It is not SYNTHESIS to doubt the former; there is an outright contradiction in
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since the only secondary source I have found says it does not. I am reverting the last 4 edits, which all appear POV. If you have reliable sources that I am not seeing, then yes, we can make some of the changes that have been made but otherwise it is not supported by the evidence.
741:; of course I understand that. But this article puts particular and excessive emphasis, for example, on the United States in the lede. There are nearly 200 countries, and 10s if not 100s of millions of immigrants globally. Why then does this article emphasise in the lede that the
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I do not want to put much weight on this paper. And as mentioned before, this article has not been around for more than a year and has not had time to be rebutted, included or excluded in other articles so it's premature to put a lot of emphasis on its original analysis.
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Uh... Those with immigrant background are over-represented in
Swedish crime statistics. Research shows that socioeconomic factors, such as unemployment, poverty, exclusion language, and other skills explain most of difference in crime rates between immigrants and
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The chart doesn't "overemphasize one position" and it's not a minority view. These are the numbers released by the Danish statistical service and there are no other numbers about the levels of crime by the country of origin in
Denmark. Different scholars
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True it was published in 2024, but in 'winter 2024' meaning 8 months ago. The July 2022 article (25 months ago) from the less reputable journal has 26 citations already. Kinda hard to compare but hopefully we will get more anlaysis of their findings
1845:, such sources can be used on Knowledge (XXG) provided we do not interpret them ourselves and do not use them excessively. This is clearly not the case here, there are plenty of secondary sources in the section on Denmark which discuss this data.
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My reverting was because you substantially changed every and all substance of the notion of a mixed relationship, and replaced them with describing them as having no relationship. That is an incredibly substantial different article, you must
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I would suggest we first continue to work through the body to continue cleaning-up individual sections before focusing on the lead. There are still issues of synthesis, original research, and selectively citing articles in a misleading way.
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disproportionately locate in deprived areas where crime is higher (because they cannot afford to stay in more expensive areas) or because they tend to locate in areas where there is a large population of residents of the same ethnic
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And those are still primary sources with very limited scope of study - way too narrow to include in a lead or inform this conversation. Maybe worth including in the body, but even then a meta-analysis is what we really need
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reasons why correlation does not equal causation). We are much closer to have sufficiently robust sections in the article to start attempting to summarize in the lead and am happy to engage in that now given where we are
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I have not had time to sift through all the sources below it, but the ones I have made it to have not all been reliable or reliably summarized. I can do that now as it clearly needs some work as has much of this article
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No, I'm absolutely not suggesting to include the sources I've mentioned in the lede (even though they are not primary). I doubt that a 2018 newspaper article is the best we've got, let me try to find better sources.
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I agree that there is no reason to only mention the US in the lede. I'm not sure that "the U.S. has the most reliable data" and we should not assume that the US is the only country that matters, or is a typical one.
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The first is a primary source just of
Germany (2015-2016) and the second a primary source just of refugees from Syria in Turkey - WAY too specific to make or dispute any generalizations. If you have reliable
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Just took it out of WP:Voice for now as you are right that we should be careful to make generalizations on one source. But it is still the best non-US source we have and so I think it belongs in the lead
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of their effect on overall crime, causation B) - do you seriously not think that (causation B as I described it above) - should be included at all in the lede? You have gutted almost every mention of B.
469:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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of all countries shows no relationship? So my idea would be not to refer to any one country in particular unless other countries are mentioned. It seems very US-centric just to include the US.
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sections in it (e.g. Sweden, Denmark and waiting for verification of
Finland, the other country cited in the former lead that was being used to make a claim that so far has not held up well).
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which has yet to be proven. We should not have any charts that make that implication at all, but if we do, we should have more charts showing that crime has not increased due to immigration.
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Correlation does not equal causation. Causation studies are more relevant than correlation studies. They should have priority, especially when correlation is often used to imply causation
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studies designed to measure the effect of immigration inflow effects on local crime rates do not, in general, find any detectable causal effect of immigration on local crime rates
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Btw, I am not arguing Causation A which you accuse me of doing. I don't have sources for that, and never implied that immigration raised the overall rate of crime anywhere.
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article is more than merely about (1.) immigration's effect on the overall crime rate, but also (2.) the crime rate among immigrants. Those are two relevant pieces of info.
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I am really confused as to what the disagreement is about and extremely confident in the edits I made. Can you be more specific as to what your issues are with these edits?
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Well, I can nitpick pretty much any article in this field and find gaps there because it's not exact science and one can always find things the authors didn't consider.
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Again, a 6-yo newspaper article is not a great source for the current scholarly consensus. If we don't have good sources for that we should simply not say anything.
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got rid of references to the latter, describing it as correlation-and-not-causation. But that is a different scope; considering B does not consider the causation on
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The individual sources of countries, such as Sweden, etc., indicate higher rates of crime. Now, I understand that it is wrong to extrapolate - synthesise - that
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The big difference is that in the US the migrants generally commit fewer crimes than natives whereas elsewhere it's the other way around generally. See the
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Instead, I replaced (or flagged) those primary sources (which were not necessarily reliable sources that were also not as current as would be ideal) with
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Yeah, that makes sense. The low citation count doesn't mean much for a recently published article. If you can find a better article we can surely add it.
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At the same time it's true that studies haven't found a causal link between migration and crime even in the countries where migrants commit more crimes.
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These are secondary sources ("thought and reflection based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event") and not
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The chart shows the prison population and not crime rates, so you can't say that the conclusion is wrong based on it. In any case this is
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in most countries—with the notable exception of the United States—immigrants exhibit a disproportionate involvement in criminal activity
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Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved
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The first sentence/paragraph of a long section like Sweden was a good recent reliable summary of the data. That should go first.
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I am doubtful of most of the current wording. I think at least Cormier's source should be removed, at least in lede via WEIGHT.
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Immigration and crime explores whether there is a relationship between criminal activity and the phenomenon of immigration.
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It has 26 citations in the past year which is notable but that may be a better use of an 'additional sources needed' flag
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Some of it is mentioned in the article, some of it isn't (just a couple of examples arriving to different conclusions
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In Europe, there is also little connection between immigration and crime despite claims by some right-wing parties.
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Scholarly sources like this one offer a more nuanced picture and we should use them rather than newspaper articles.
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lot of evidence that the amount is not by as much as is implied by charts like that. That is why it is WP:UNDUE
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This is your opinion. If there are reliable sources that dispute this finding, we can add them to the article.
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I'm sorry for repeating it, but it's not a primary source in the sense this term is used on Knowledge (XXG) (
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analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources
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I am sure there are differences but do not see any evidence of that in reliable secondary sources so far
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1198:"Analysis | Trump asked people to 'look at what's happening … in Sweden.' Here's what's happening there"
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described that explores often higher rates of crime among immigrants. So why gut any reference to that?
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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factors would seem to suggest a positive link between immigration and crime. On the other side,
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parameter and no comments at the talk page. What are the reasons to doubt the sources there?
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B, C, D, and so on: examples of countries that do - that is a direct, not indirect, negation.
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A 2023 study of 30 OECD countries found no statistical link between immigration and crime.
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moving forward after finally getting around to organizing 'Worldwide' section a bit better
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that are more recent and contradict The Economist, that would be really helpful context.
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Fair enough - let's put back in WP:Voice. Just double-checking on econ journal relevance
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they cannot if they overemphasize one position, especially when it is a minority view.
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We shouldn't replace the conclusion with cherrypicked facts from the article.
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A and B are two clearly different yet necessary aspects of this article. But @
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the causation (B) of immigrants committing higher crime rates; i.e., due to
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I've added a note that other Anglo-Saxon countries also behave differently.
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language, history of misuse of sources about Denmark in lead and elsewhere
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My concern is that the US and EU experience seem to be quite different.
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You clearly haven't seen my edits then. Some were simple reordering.
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B: Rates of crime among immigrants, e.g., compared to other groups.
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article that I've added which explicitly calls the US an exception.
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is primary in this context. A meta-analysis would be secondary.
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swap out two of those examples with other countries' studies
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that make more global claims and are more WP:verifiable.
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is used to support the following statement in the lede
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Immigration and Crime: An International Perspective
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688:A says: Just about no countries.
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143:Be welcoming to newcomers
61:No consensus leaning keep
22:Skip to table of contents
63:, 23 February 2010, see
21:
1886:Knowledge (XXG) is not
53:, 3 December 2010, see
551:WikiProject Statistics
485:Crime-related articles
307:This article is rated
138:avoid personal attacks
634:. Student editor(s):
377:WikiProject Sociology
311:on Knowledge (XXG)'s
262:Auto-archiving period
163:Neutral point of view
88:Immigration and crime
1090:The named reference
1068:The named reference
168:No original research
665:WP:Reliable sources
574:Statistics articles
632:on the course page
400:sociology articles
313:content assessment
149:dispute resolution
110:
1935:JustAPoliticsNerd
1717:
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1689:Marie and Pinotti
1516:
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1419:secondary sources
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911:. So a causation
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129:Assume good faith
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640:article contribs
629:
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594:importance scale
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158:Article policies
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624:17 January 2022
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1233:. 2017-02-20.
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590:Low-importance
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560:the discussion
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531:Low‑importance
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501:Mid-importance
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471:the discussion
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1931:Superb Owell
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1437:primary ones
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1239:. Retrieved
1230:
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1143:
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1088:Cite error:
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656:WP:synthesis
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82:This is the
60:
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1888:WP:CENSORED
1589:Attribution
1496:OECD result
211:free images
94:not a forum
1951:Categories
1907:Superb Owl
1896:¿question?
1866:Superb Owl
1851:¿question?
1843:WP:PRIMARY
1824:Superb Owl
1801:¿question?
1780:Superb Owl
1769:¿question?
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1725:¿question?
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1657:¿question?
1645:WP:PRIMARY
1628:Superb Owl
1612:¿question?
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1564:¿question?
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1525:¿question?
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1448:¿question?
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1407:¿question?
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1341:¿question?
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1319:Superb Owl
1303:Zilch-nada
1294:Superb Owl
1260:Superb Owl
1241:2017-04-09
1212:2017-04-02
1183:2017-04-02
1154:2017-04-02
1125:2017-04-02
1054:References
1030:¿question?
1002:Superb Owl
992:¿question?
974:Superb Owl
963:¿question?
932:Superb Owl
917:Zilch-nada
909:background
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874:Zilch-nada
860:Zilch-nada
845:Superb Owl
831:Zilch-nada
808:Zilch-nada
793:Superb Owl
776:Zilch-nada
762:Superb Owl
747:Zilch-nada
721:Superb Owl
714:Zilch-nada
700:Zilch-nada
671:Superb Owl
652:Zilch-nada
636:Estanley25
628:6 May 2022
565:Statistics
556:statistics
528:Statistics
65:discussion
55:discussion
1881:interpret
1350:sourcing.
1231:France 24
1173:USA Today
1096:help page
1074:help page
739:causation
662:secondary
391:Sociology
382:sociology
338:Sociology
151:if needed
134:Be polite
84:talk page
1860:and per
1235:Archived
1206:Archived
1177:Archived
1148:Archived
1119:Archived
825:natives.
685:sources.
249:Archives
119:get help
92:This is
90:article.
41:deletion
1892:Alaexis
1847:Alaexis
1797:Alaexis
1765:Alaexis
1721:Alaexis
1653:Alaexis
1608:Alaexis
1560:Alaexis
1521:Alaexis
1476:Alaexis
1444:Alaexis
1403:Alaexis
1375:article
1337:Alaexis
1298:overall
1283:overall
1144:Reuters
1026:Alaexis
988:Alaexis
959:Alaexis
592:on the
503:on the
418:on the
309:C-class
266:60 days
217:WP refs
205:scholar
1862:WP:DUE
1817:Charts
1556:reason
1369:Europe
735:Europe
695:admit?
315:scale.
189:Google
1757:WP:OR
1666:soon.
1285:crime
1275:rates
232:JSTOR
193:books
147:Seek
1939:talk
1911:talk
1870:talk
1841:Per
1828:talk
1784:talk
1741:talk
1675:talk
1632:talk
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626:and
225:FENS
199:news
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