1286:, the Albanian-Messapic relation is the one proposed in the recently published Indo-European phylogenetic trees, although it is considered inconclusive by some. But above all, there are many examples of common features between Albanian and Messapic that indicate their close relationship, and there are fiew or none that suggest otherwise. That relationship is also strongly indicated by recent archaeogenetic studies. Anyway, since many scholars say that the relationship is often supported by linguists, I thought not mentioning Messapic in the infobox would be better than mentioning it as a separate IE branch. But I do agree that a clarification in the infobox would solve the issue. Also the clarification about the Graeco-Phrygian relation needs to be included.
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on Graeco–Phrygian when it comes to
Albanian–Messapic comparisons (and this includes all sources mentioned in the stock cite bomb that has been placed over multiple articles). In any case, Albanian–Messapic is certainly not an unequivocally established branch of the IE family on par with Indo-Iranian or Balto-Slavic.
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its status and also include Graeco-Phrygian, which has a much better established evidential base than
Albanian–Messapic, not only because of the larger corpus of Phrygian in comparison to Messapic, but also the depth of study devoted to it. I haven't seen anything comparable to Obrador-Cursach's work
1194:
There are some reliable etymological correspondences between
Albanian words and both Illyrian (including Messapian) and Thracian language material Lexical data of this kind are obviously insufficient for any kind of decisive conclusions about the relations between Albanian and the two ancient Balkan
1263:
Indo-European linguistics is really not my area of expertise, but if scholars are describing the grouping as speculative, we should reflect that cautiousness. I'm not opposed to including
Albanoid in the infobox, but it should include a question mark to indicate its tentativeness, and Albanian and
1165:
You repeatedly claim that the inclusion of
Albanian and Messapic in a unified branch of the IE languages is the "mainstream view". I am aware that this is a widely held view in Albanian studies, often cited/echoed but rarely expounded with comparative evidence that fulfils the only valid criterion
1364:
shared innovations. Not many, but still remarkable given the small size of the
Messapic corpus. The other common features are either shared retentions from PIE or shared on a more limited level with other IE languages. While these not exclusively shared features are of course non-diagnostic for
1228:
So where does the mainstream view of Indo-Europeanists stand here? Messapic is only fragmentarily attested, so there are limited comparanda to start with. Those that have been found (mainly by Hamp, and further pruned and refined by
Matzinger) are very compelling, but as Hyllested & Joseph
1213:
Albanian is closely related to
Illyrian and also Messapic (a language spoken in Southern Italy in antiquity but originally of Balkan origin), which is why Albanian in some instances may shed some light on the explanation of Messapic as well as Illyrian words (see Matzinger
1391:
Two times before, I changed the example of evolution from PIE into a modern language. I did this because I really don't like using
English as an example for any particular topic. Can we allow changing the example language, maybe to Czech as with my edits?
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languages. The same is also true of phonetic
Illyrian-Albanian and Thracian-Albanian isoglosses. Given the limits of our knowledge, it is preferable to consider Illyrian, Thracian and Albanian as separate branches within the Indo-European language family.
1203:
edited by Klein, Joseph and Fritz. The question of the affiliation of Messapic is mentioned in two chapters, "The lexicon of Albanian" by Matzinger and "Messapic" by de Simone, which represent the two poles of assessment within Indo-European studies:
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I'm optimistic that research will eventually bring more light to the question as more Messapic inscriptions continue to be discovered, and my hunch is that it will eventually raise the status of Albanian–Messapic from "speculative" to
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This looks like a good solution to me as it reflects the assessment of a very good and recent source. The Albanian–Messapic hypothesis is the best we have at this time, given the limited material about Messapic as of now.
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Technically speaking, from a genealogical standpoint, Messapic likely is the closest IE language to Albanian (Matzinger 2005). However, in the absence of sufficient evidence, that connection must remain speculative (p.
1365:
subgrouping, nothing in the phonological and morphpological histories of Messapic and (Proto-)Albanian indicates that they went completely different ways that would contradict a close relationship between the two. –
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Can you justify your changes with much beyond "I don't like it"? Surely there's an argument that English-language examples are most immediately helpful and instructive for an English-language readership?
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summarize: "in the absence of sufficient evidence, that connection must remain speculative", which is a statement that I think we can safely echo in Wikivoice, more than anything else.
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Phylogeny of Chang et al. (2015): This team published 18 versions without deciding for one of these as their choice. So - which phylogeny is this? And why this one??
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for subgrouping, i.e. exclusively shared innovations. But things are not as easy from the Indo-Europeanist perspective. In order to evaluate the mainstream view per
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1328:< ALL Indo-European languages share "common features between Albanian and Messapic that indicate their close relationship". So this is not convincing at all.
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At the present time, realistically speaking, it is not possible to situate Messapic within the framework of the Indo-European language family.
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baltic (blue) and slavic (green) are shown separately on the map. according to the map legend though green shows "balto-slavic" spread.
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Could we make a change where instead of showing the evolution of PIE to English as the example, it’s PIE to Portuguese instead?
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I don't say we shouldn't embolden ourselves to mention the proposed Albanian–Messapic branch in the infobox. But then we must
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Then there's Rusakov's chapter "Albanian" in Kapović's Routledge Handbook
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features shared with each other and not with all recognized IE branches?
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Knowledge (XXG) level-3 vital articles in Society and social sciences
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Handbook of Comparative and Historical Indo-European Linguistics
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The Indo-European Language Family: A Phylogenetic Perspective
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Starting with the most recent, there is Olander (2022),
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who made the relevant modifications in 08 June 2024.
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32:This is the
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288:renominated
161:free images
44:not a forum
1472:Categories
1219:De Simone:
1208:Matzinger:
989:References
335:Not listed
1426:See also
1312:"proven".
1059:Databases
1003:Citations
849:Evolution
452:Languages
443:languages
399:Languages
368:is rated
101:if needed
84:Be polite
34:talk page
1436:—Tamfang
1412:Remsense
1348:—Tamfang
1290:'s edit
1246:Khassanu
1168:WP:RS/AC
1140:—Tamfang
1093:114,635
963:See also
548:European
199:Archives
69:get help
42:This is
40:article.
1456:HJJHolm
1330:HJJHolm
1234:qualify
1090:114,635
1018:Sources
916:19,371
856:41,233
785:31,090
772:10,544
744:Section
685:on the
580:on the
479:on the
370:B-class
313:Process
232:30Â days
167:WPÂ refs
155:scholar
1278:Hello
1214:2005).
1082:1,461
1074:Lexica
1067:1,857
1052:3,689
1039:3,995
1026:6,722
996:6,770
957:6,714
931:8,218
913:19,371
901:4,766
886:6,943
871:1,920
843:2,238
830:2,315
815:6,153
800:4,062
782:18,560
769:10,544
759:7,708
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504:Europe
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1087:Total
1079:1,461
1064:1,857
1036:3,995
1023:6,722
976:Notes
954:6,714
928:8,218
898:4,766
883:6,943
868:1,920
840:2,238
827:2,315
812:6,153
797:4,062
756:7,708
752:(Top)
741:count
357:This
182:JSTOR
143:books
97:Seek
1460:talk
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1430:and
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1296:Βατο
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