Talk:Israel–Hamas war/Archive 8

1261:

permanent resident of Israel and Israeli citizen. Only people with non-Israeli citizenship should be listed as such (ex. the Thai foreign workers). Doing so, is inherently linked to political reasons to involve as many international Western powers as possible (USA, UK, Germany etc.). It has gotten to the point where IDF soldiers, who died in combat, are listed as 'British nationals' (in the case of Nathaniel Young as reported by BBC). Nobody sees how ridiculous this is? UK citizenship laws don't even allow its citizens to serve in a foreign military, and if an Israeli soldier (who happens to hold dual nationalities) is made a casualty, he/she should be counted solely as Israeli. Otherwise this is misleading information. If a non-dual Israeli American, British or German citizen was made a casualty, by all means list them separately.

3626:"We are not retaliating. We are targeting the enemy, in order to uproot the capability of the enemy to carry on with its campaign of Israel. Trying to destroy it as part of an empire of evil which has its claws all around us, from the north with Hezbollah, from the south with Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Look around us, in the entire region, the havoc they have created everywhere Iran has touched. In Yemen, in Syria, in Iraq, in Lebanon This is exactly what I talked about in the Joint Session of Congress in July where I explained it is always our dream to make peace with our neighbors but we cannot accept terror. Unfortunately the world has seen the worst terrorist atrocity in quite some time." 3297:

Germany's was added strictly because the German government was leasing two of their own drones to Israel to fight Hamas, but not truly "giving" them the drones, which means the German government has a partial response in fighting Hamas. The US is similar, but instead of leases, it is more just a "these are yours now" style of supporting. I would not be opposed to adding a "Supported by" subsection in the infobox which is where the US (and maybe Germany with a consensus) would go. But at least for Germany's addition, this is a statement that the German government is militarily supporting Israel with their own weapons, so they are a combatant.

4043: 1938:

am pretty sure every action of hamas will get "debunked" here somehow.lol.. i am also telling the same to other poor editors who wants to label freedom fighter hamas as terrorists that dont be surprised when certain editors and admins start whitewashing the acts of hamas.and i never said all arabic speakers support hamas.i implied majority arabic as well as non arabic followers of islam support hamas.might be my personal opinion but i stand my ground.not asking anyone to include this in article.just providing free information.take it or leave it.dosent matter

2179:

to celebrate! A Hammas terrorist interrogated admitted there was a mass rape at the rave of our young innocent girls next to their friends bodies. there are numerous videos of young girls kidnapped by hammas with blood oozing between their legs.... I know its hard to hear and belive but this is our reality, they are killing and raping our people and celebrating our death. This whole article is infuriating, why doesnt it call the attack by its name, just like president Joe Biden have said in his speech- a terror attack?

2935:, are active in both the Gaza Strip and Southern Lebanon, having launched attacks against Israel on both fronts. With this in mind, the way the belligerents are geographically divided in the infobox doesn't seem quite right. Even if the bulk of PIJ activity has come out of the Gaza area, Hezbollah is not this conflict's sole belligerent in Southern Lebanon. Not sure what the best solution is; one idea is listing PIJ twice, in both categories. 31: 3429: 381: 3730:

almost 250 Palestinians and 32 Israelis; Hamas cited these events as justification for the offensive, and called on Palestinians outside of Gaza to join "the fight against the occupiers".In response, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared states of emergency and war, and some opposition parties have called for the formation of a national unity government.

1620:: These groups often have political, ideological, or religious objectives that may involve the use of violence against civilian populations, including Israel, with the intent of advancing their goals. Their tactics often involve deliberate targeting of civilians, which is considered a violation of international humanitarian law. 1296:

all as Israeli first and foremost, or in any case dual Israeli-American. There is a big political motive behind this, to list them as solely American in order to involve the USA on behalf of Israel, perhaps militarily. We need to be honest and state the factual info as per sources, and not omit this important distinction.

2582:

I think it should be clearly presented as an Israeli claim so readers can form judgment accordingly. Unsure what the POV concern is; if the number is "too high" does that somehow impugn the Palestinian cause? But if it's omitted entirely that excludes a significant aspect of the casualty situation on

2334:

Taking enemy combatants and using prisoners of war as bargaining chips for future negotiations is a military practice as old as human conflict itself. But the Hamas fighters embarked on a rampage unprecedented even in previous Israeli-Palestinian confrontations, spreading fear through what was widely

2207:

Has anyone seen estimates of the number of people who entered, and how many were militants? IDF spokesman Richard Hecht said “Approximately 1,500 bodies of Hamas militants were found in Israel around the Gaza Strip” which is the figure we have in our infobox here. There are a lot of videos on Twitter

1937:

debunked by whow? which reliable investigative source? israeli army never denied anything and now you will twist their words and take it vas reliable source when it suits your narrative? now they are reliable source? there are multiple international sources,interviews etc confirming beheadings. but i

1681:

ALSO terrorist is a very vague term and its definition is blurred. we should use "islamic terrorism/fundamentalism" and make it more specific. whatever hamas is doing perfectly fits the definition(i.e fighting for occupied land and how to fight is also covered in islamic texts ). so islamic terrorism

1295:

Of course, otherwise we are dabbling in this sensationalism like news articles titled "Americans killed!" when all the aforementioned Americans are dual Israeli citizens (in many cases permanent residents of Israel), it is far more appropriate given the context of Palestinian vs. Israeli to list them

959:

I just don't want to jump the gun on adding said statement, even if it is reliably sourced. This is a very high traffic article at the moment. I've even found sources claiming this to be the "second-deadliest act of terrorism in world history after 9/11". Even with a reliable source this seems like a

750:

An example for a war including terror, is WW2 and the Holocaust. When Nazi Germany invaded several countries (War), and used its power and reasources in order to enslave, starve and slaughter population they regard as enemies of theirs (Thus promoting their political agenda with murder: Terror), such

4173:

I do not see how this sentence is explaining anything. It confused me the first time I read, which is why I came here. It is just there with out any connection to what is said before or after. I prefer Alexandria Bucephalous paragraph over this, but as Merlinsorca said, it should not be in the lead.

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Self-Defense: The phrase "protect its citizens" is often used to convey the idea that the military action is a response to threats posed by groups like Hamas. In international law, states have the right to self-defense. Israel argues that it is acting to protect its citizens from rocket attacks. The

3878:

The background information on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is important, but it is not essential to understand the main points of the article on the 2023 Israel-Hamas war. This information can be moved to the Background section of the article, or it can be condensed into a single sentence in the

3780:

Beyond that one of the parts that I don't like is: "In response, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared states of emergency and war..." It's not exactly clear what this is referring to. It makes it seem as if he's either A. declaring war in response to the lead up that Hamas cites or B.

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The 2023 Israel-Hamas war was a major escalation in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It was preceded by a year of increased violence, including Israeli settlement expansion, Israeli settler violence against Palestinian civilians, and clashes in Jenin, the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and Gaza. Hamas cited these

3729:

The crisis represented a tipping point in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict and the Gaza–Israel conflict, which followed a violent year that saw increased expansion of Israeli settlements and Israeli settler violence against Palestinian civilians, clashes in Jenin, the Al-Aqsa mosque, and Gaza killed

3650:

Hamas deny that they have targeted civilians, this reaction is mentioned in the war crime section. I was suggesting that the reaction from the Israeli president should be added as well, otherwise the article shows one side clearly denying the claims and showing nothing from the other side addressing

2887:

It seems WSJ randomly took a snippet from one interview and held it up as the official reason Hamas gave. I think we should be clearer that the West Bank settler justification comes from one spokesman and we should more closely reflect the justification from AP. And furthermore, we should remove the

2707:

The IDF spokesman for foreign media told reporters this morning that 1,500 bodies of terrorists were found in the Gaza Strip. He added that the IDF has "more or less restored" control of the border. Later, the IDF spokesman stated that the army is in full control of the area - but there may still be

2178:

I am an Israely, and this whole discussion about weathr teenage girls were raped or not raped during the attack is extremly insensitive and offensive towrds the Israely people. I have seen many videos by Hamass oficial sources claiming and being proud of raping our girls saying proudly its something

1808:

My understanding is the major concern with the Israeli conduct of the war, aside from the obvious dispute between targeting civilians and collateral damage, is that the siege of Gaza could result in a humanitarian crisis, something that, were it to, say, result in hundreds of thousands of deaths, it

316:

Google translated it to "German Defense: We agreed to an Israeli request to use two of our drones in the fight against Hamas". However, another editor said that the translation was Germany sending drones to Ukraine, not Hamas. Can someone verify (not using Google or a translate tool) if "Ukraine" or

3874:

I agree ! The background information on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict should not be featured so prominently in the lead of the article on the 2023 Israel-Hamas war. The lead of an article should provide a brief overview of the topic of the article, and it should not be used to provide a detailed

3454:

Please see full discussion on this above. Yes, I had pasted the WSJ ref in complete error, got called on it, I apologized, and my reply to the people asking me to fix my error is to place the BBC ref that I had originally intended. Please see full details above in the relevant section. Feel free

2266:

There are videos that show Palestinian civilians walking in and out of the Gaza barrier (so technically they do step inside Israel), but I doubt many civilians ventured far into Israel. Taking a few steps inside Israel (perhaps as a curiosity, since Gazans are never allowed to leave the tiny strip)

1558:

In the case, should not the Israeli 'Defence' Force be termed a terror organizations? For as you made clear, the definition of terror is: violence used as a weapon of intimidation. Given this, might not the terror bombing of civilian areas - in order to punish a population - be called a War Crime?

779:

Attempts to define terrorism by it's intentions have mostly failed. 9/11 needed new narratives to explain it as terrorism. It was different from any previous suicide attacks. After 9/11, there were numerous similar suicide attacks against US and pro-Western targets worldwide in places as obscure as

696:

Multiple sources have made this claim and called it "Israel's 9/11", but how accurate is this really? What consitutes a "terrorist attack" versus an "act of war"? You don't see most of the war battles throughout history listed among the list of terror attacks, so why would this be any different? If

451:

Please change "The war has led to immense collateral damage, including the widespread deaths of civilians, and there have been allegations of war crimes" to "The war has led to immense destruction and loss of life, including the widespread deaths of civilians. Sources such as Human Rights Watch and

2608:

There is no third party source regarding the 1,500 militants being killed in Israel. Coming from Israel first hand, it could very well be a war time propaganda since Israel has already declared a state of war for the first time since the Yom Kippur war. War time propaganda was actively reported in

1952:

Per the latest information, it appears that IDF can't confirm that the beheadings happened to babies. They are acknowledging that beheadings are happening though. It appears that most media sources are reporting based off of the PM's office initial statement, though it's been somewhat walked back.

1260:

Israel citizens with dual nationality shouldn't be listed separately, i.e. Shani Louk (raised in Israel most of her life, resident at time of death, served in IDF, but born in Germany) should not be listed solely as a 'German national' under Israeli casualties. She was not a foreign tourist, but a

909:

The reason why it is still relevant is because I was thinking about adding the statement to the article, but wanted to first get consensus on whether it constitutes a "true" terror attack like 9/11 which it has been compared with by multiple sources. If I just add it without discussing on the talk

3898:

Alexandria Bucephalous comments, far from being balanced, are pro-Israel. Does not the statement that the Israel launched a "targeted military operation" to eliminate Hamas's rocket launching capabilities and "protect its citizens", sound more like a press release from the IDF? For should not the

3551:

mixed bag of edits. Three things that come to mind in a first reading: replacing a free site with a paywalled site that doesn't say quite the same thing? You change the meaning of a point that is being hotly debated in WP:RS (what does sending the USS Ford exactly mean?), finally you add a severe

3296:

The "supported by" lines got moved out of use in the infoboxes and require a talk page consensus to add them to an infobox (per the hidden editor note in the combatant infobox section). The US is probably the only other country that could be added, since they are directly giving military support.

1716:

They would qualify as indiscriminate, as well as disproportionate. Assuming there is truth to the claim that in every bombing there was a legitimate military target, and even assuming Hamas was using human shields in every case, that doesn't alleviate the legal obligations of Israel. Human Rights

825:

I originally removed this comment because I did not see a reference to anything that's actually been included in the article. The phrase "deadliest terror attack in Israel's history" is not in the article. So I did not see the relevance for including it on the talk page here, especially since the

744:

The terms are broad, blurry, and general, yet usually when the term "War on Terror" is used, it's specify a terror organisation, involved in a large-scale, armed conflict, consisting of two different entities, usually fighting from their controlled land (Usually); in which the terror organisation

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targeted at strategic buildings and military targets" or something of the like. Given that the next clause states that they bombed hospitals, mosques, homes, and a refugee camp and the only source that they were "targeting military targets" is necessarily the IDF itself this seems appropriate.

1908:

when almost the whole islamic world is supporting hamas and justifying their actions it would be foolish to think muslim editors(who are in good numbers) will not be biased and wont try to dilute or whitewash these incidents.it directly undermines the palestinian narrative.it cannot be allowed.

3663:

Ah, I see your point now. However I'm not sure that he was referencing the actions described as potential was crimes (such as cutting off the electricity and food supplies). If he did, we need to find his full speech. Otherwise we can wait until we get the explanation from some other official.

1022:

Yeah, I think that is the main dilemma at this point. This article needs to be split with a standalone article focusing on the initial attack. Thats another reason why I'm so adamant about adding statements about it being "the deadliest terrorist attack ever in: xyz". This article is about the

1506:

Because conduct means: "the act, manner, or process of carrying on" as per Merriam Webster, the inference then becomes that Israel and Hamas's being in and of itself in the conflict is criminal. Where as stating that war crimes have taken place doesn't pass judgement on. In a nutshell its the

3265:

As a reply to why it was added, both Al Jazeera & Reuters were reporting it was German drones and the German government gave them clearance to use their drones. Unlike a typical thing from the US which is "have these weapons", where they become Israels. These are on lease from the German

4407:

I went into detail with it on the other page, but essentially right now we have this page for the war initiated by this terror attack(the equivalent of, say, the US War in Afghanistan page), and we have pages for some specific incidents in that initial terror attack like the Re'im Festival

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Precision and Intent: The term "targeted military operation" implies that the primary objective is to hit specific military targets while minimizing harm to civilians. In any conflict, it's essential to make a distinction between military targets and civilians to comply with international

2067:

Yes sadly there is a correlation between people who are willing to kill civilians in cold blood and people who are willing to commit sexual violence. The fact that the period of lawlessness was only a few hours long in most places would suggest it was not widespread though, hopefully.

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This will be especially important when the ground campaign of the war starts. We need a page SPECIFICALLY for the terrorist attacks that triggered it overall. Not just the page for the resulting war and the pages for specific events in that larger attack. I propose the name

731:

A WAR ON TERROR / WAR INCLUDING TERROR, is a war in which a terror organisation/entity, such is Hamas, is involved. Hamas slaughters civilians and innocents to promote his political agenda, and is controlling a certain amount of land (See Gaza Strip), and is, de facto, a

1634:: The IDF is a conventional military force that follows the rules of engagement, international laws, and treaties. It uses military strategies and tactics in response to security threats and operates with the goal of minimizing collateral damage and civilian casualties. 2033:

Regarding the statement in the lede section: "Survivor interviews provide claims of wartime sexual violence, including instances of rape committed by Hamas militants." Can anyone verify whether this might be an overblown wartime allegation from an Israeli official?

1702:? This is a tricky question because a civilian building occupied by the militants is a legitimate target. Yes, a number of civilians have died. But using civilians as hostages/shields is a war crime by the side that does it (i.e. Hamas). This is all complicated. 492: 4060:

The majority of sources do not mention "carpet bombing". As of your point of using bunker busters in the densely populated areas, this does not constitute indiscriminate bombing as bunker busters ( as the name suggests ) target underground bunkers only.

3921:

The phrases "targeted military operation" and "protect its citizens" are often used by several organisations to describe their actions in the context of conflicts. Whether these phrases are fair or biased can depend on various factors and perspectives:

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massacres(the equivalent of pages for the Pentagon Attacks, North Tower, South Tower), but we don't have a page specifically for the initial 2 days of massacres primarily targetted at civilians(an equivalent of the September 11 attacks page overall).

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events as justification for its rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, which began in the lead-up to the war. In response, Israel launched a targeted military operation to eliminate Hamas's rocket launching capabilities and protect its citizens.

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allege war crimes by Palestinian militant groups and the Israeli authorities." The last phrase ("...Palestinian militant groups and the Israeli authorities") could be changed simply to "both sides" but I don't think that's necessarily better.

2759:

El Al Israel Airlines announces that for the first time since 1982, it will fly on a Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, to bring back Israelis called up for emergency military reserve duty as well as security and rescue forces stranded abroad.

780:

Bali. The comparison to 9/11 is simply a statement about the impact this is likely to have on Israeli society and especially young people. There is no universal definition of terrorism. Hostage taking is terrorism. This isn't complicated.

2767:

Reserve soldiers will be flying back on Saturday free of charge on two Boeing 787 aircraft leaving from New York and Bangkok. The cost of the flights will be borne by El Al and large US financial institutions, El Al says in a statement.

1812:

The Israelis, to my understanding, a waging the siege as a reprisal for the kidnappings. I'm, anyways, curious as to whether there hasn't been any analysis as to just what is supposed to happen in so far that Hamas does not back down.

2479:

I have removed this claim from the infobox for the time being as it is highly dubious. Only self reported casualties of the belligerents should be used for the time being. In the past, Hamas announced its casualties after a few days.

1985:

If that case, you will be able to mention all the "multiple reliable sources" that have confirmed this outrage? Also, to show that there is not any equivocation, should not an editor update the article in line with the best evidence?

2763:

Israel’s national airline says it is preparing to operate flights this Saturday from the US and Asia to help bring back Israeli army reservists whose return to the country is vital during the current war with the Hamas terror group.

1280:

table should have some info about those with dual citizenship. For example we can have something like Americans (killed): 10 (2). Where 10 would be the total amount of American Citizens and (2) could be those with dual-citizenship.

3821:

I agree but I would go further to say that this background should not be featured so prominently in the lead. All this detail should be moved into the Background section, or at best be given a single sentence referencing the wider

3161:. The problem is not just attribution; grouping Palestinian civilians who were killed with Hamas militants who were killed is problematic, as is (for example) Israeli civilians and foreign workers with Israeli military casualties. 2673:

I agree with including the number. All such claims should be attributed to their source, but they're otherwise acceptable to include. In a war, it's normal for each side to dispute the specific number of casualties and fatalities.

3739:

It omits important information that could provide a more balanced perspective. For example, it does not mention that Hamas has a long history of launching rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.Here is a more neutral version of the

974:

Yeah, that's difficult to weigh. I think with multiple RS, you could put it in the "analysis" section: "XYZ sources asserted it is the second-deadliest terror ...". I would avoid putting in the lead, though. That's my 2 cents.

268:. According to various sources, this extraordinary outcome is attributed to the actions of Inbal Lieberman. The question arises as to where this information should be incorporated and what level of detail is deemed appropriate 1640:: These groups typically employ asymmetric warfare tactics, including guerrilla warfare, suicide bombings, rocket attacks on civilian areas,rape and other forms of violence that often result in significant civilian casualties. 2412: 1614:: The primary objective of the IDF is to defend the State of Israel and its citizens, maintain security, and protect its sovereignty. It operates under the laws of armed conflict and aims to minimize civilian casualties. 3104:

The title frames the conflict as "Israel vs. Hamas" but lists Palestinian civilian casualties as under "Hamas". If the article is treating Hamas and Palestine separately, shouldn't civilian casualties go under the box?

4208:

but I would prefer less detail. I don’t think it makes a good reading experience to list the exact locations and death tolls of background events directly in the lead section, and other war articles seem to avoid such

3384:

I have removed the "supported by" lines from the infobox again. I would not be opposed to discussing whether it can be used in this article (preferably in the form of an RfC), but that should happen before it is used.

2234:

I've been looking for the past couple of days and haven't been able to find an estimate; I would, however, assume that there were many more than 1500 because we know many militants escaped back to Gaza with hostages.

2082:

A source that appended ahead of the line was about Israeli official alleging rape. While it would be unfortunate and horrible if this turned out to be true. But we must exercise caution and prioritize more and better

1595:: The Israeli Defense Forces is the official military organization of the State of Israel and operates under the authority of a recognized government. It is recognized as a legitimate military force by many countries. 1348:

If you insist then edit and list them as both, in this case Israeli-British. What I see currently is only 'British' under the casualty section for people who are described as dual Israeli-British citizens in the news

2052:

It is not improbable. An Israeli friend of mine whom I trust had friends at that rave party. The daughter of one was raped three times before, presumably, being taken back to Gaza. That is not coming from an Israeli

280: 3758:

Language that is favorable to one side or the other was removed. For example, the phrase "occupiers" was removed, and the phrase "violent settlement expansion" was replaced with the more neutral phrase "settlement

351:

Much appreciated! I thought the translation from Google was right, since there is a secondary English source saying the same thing, but given the translation disagreement, I wanted it translated here. Thank you!

4294:, I’ve updated the second paragraph with the wording I used here. I placed the second sentence at the end of the paragraph for a better flow. Please let me know if there are further changes that should be made. 2950:

It seems reasonable to me to list groups in the territory in which they are based. Many of these groups have an overseas presence, and things could get very confusing very quickly trying to cross-cite them all.

3120:

The casualty section makes no sense because the Israeli side's casualty figure includes foreign civilians who were killed by Hamas. Civilian killings should not be counted together with military casualties.

543:

Unlike Iran which denies direct support while supporting the attack; US directly supports Israel and sends armaments and so do European nations; so I do not know why they removed US as a supporter of Israel

4543:

So far this year at least 247 Palestinians, 32 Israelis and two foreigners have been killed in the conflict, including combatants and civilians on both sides, according to Israeli and Palestinian officials.

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I may or may not agree with some of the points/opinions above that matters not: you need sourcing and consensus. There is room for improvement in the article, but it involves making it more NPOV not less.

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Before Saturday's violence, at least 247 Palestinians, 32 Israelis and two foreigners had been killed this year, including combatants and civilians, according to Israeli and Palestinian officials.

2866:

increased expansion of Israeli settlements and Israeli settler violence against Palestinian civilians, clashes in Jenin, the Al-Aqsa mosque, and Gaza killed almost 250 Palestinians and 32 Israelis

1046:

When they hault from lurking around the gaza envelope, (Not to be confised with the gaza strip), and in Israel, then it'll probably be counted as the END of the terror attack, and then just a war.

4421: 1839: 1239: 1148: 1672:: Israel is a recognized sovereign state, and the IDF's actions are subject to international scrutiny and criticism, particularly in cases where there are allegations of human rights violations. 4560:

Before Saturday, the violence this year had killed at least 247 Palestinians, 32 Israelis and two foreigners, including combatants and civilians, according to Israeli and Palestinian officials.

4526:

Before Saturday, the conflict had killed at least 247 Palestinians, 32 Israelis and two foreigners, including combatants and civilians, this year, according to Israeli and Palestinian officials

2884:

When this interview took place, Hamad was on an interview spree and argued aggressively with each interviewer to justify these actions and used different arguments against Israel in each case.

728:

Usually in order to hurt the other side, and win specific things such as a complete control over the country, a weakening of the country, seizing specific land (See nagorno-karabakh), and more.

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Hamas fighters embarked on a rampage unprecedented even in previous Israeli-Palestinian confrontations, .... widely reported as the indiscriminate murder of hundreds of civilians and captives

1835:

Instead of palestinian militant It should be palestinian terror organizations. As the definition of terror is: violence or the threat of violence used as a weapon of intimidation or coercion

1552:

Instead of palestinian militant It should be palestinian terror organizations. As the definition of terror is: violence or the threat of violence used as a weapon of intimidation or coercion

170:

Frankly I would remove this clause altogether since it's not sourced in the header or elaborated on in the body of the text anywhere. Would appreciate it if someone could make this change.

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sources. We need to slow down a bit and see what the best sources say specifically and explicitly about Israeli actions in the current situation. References to past events are not helpful.

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El Al says breaking its decades-long policy of not flying on the Jewish Sabbath has received halachic approval as the rescue flights are considered part of what is known in Hebrew as

3736:

It uses language that is favorable to Hamas and critical of Israel. For example, it describes the Israeli government as "occupiers" and the Israeli settlement expansion as "violent."

1659:: These groups often have more loosely organized structures, with smaller cells and less centralized command and control. They often operate covertly and are more difficult to track. 1023:

supposed war now, not a single attack. This type of statement should be added to the article about the attack that started the war, not in the war article itself. Just my two cents.

460:

The above change reflects the content of the articles cited, and avoids the passive voice and the use of the term "collateral damage" (which is particularly problematic). Knowledge

281:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/israeli-woman-who-helped-save-a-kibbutz-im-not-a-hero-i-wasnt-there-by-myself/0000018b-1e4f-d47b-a7fb-bfdf2e560000

3507:, including the reference thing here and some other tweaks? Your edit summary indicates that this may have been collateral; are you willing to self-revert the relevant portions? — 1002:

And when we're refrencing "the terror attack", we of course mean the suprsise terror invasion, who killed 700+ Israelis, and started said war (Which is the subject of the article).

993:

Well, you can certainly use a refrence of the amount of dead in each major terror attack. Possibly there's a table in Knowledge of the deadliest terror attacks. Not that I know of.

562:, and the consensus was that the practice should be discontinued and avoided, with exceptions existing only if there was general agreement on the respective talk page(s) to do so. 3781:

in response to this nebulous "crisis tipping point". However Israel declared war against Hamas in response to Hamas's invasion of Israel. It's not as if this were a mutual event.

2627:

There's no third party source for any of the casualties. It's all based on claims made by the sides. Since this is a claim made by one side about the other it gets a disclaimer.

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thats called whataboutery.israeli defence force cannot be compared to hamas or other terrorist groups. its not wise to play victim when idf retaliates after this sort of attack:

3558:

I think this was pretty much an innocent mistake, but the editor should none the less self rv and be much more careful in the future. If I am dreadfully wrong, please explain?

3432:? The WSJ reporting seems to just as well support the statement, so I'm a bit curious as to the reason for its removal (rather than simply adding the BBC cite alongside it). — 523:

Collateral damage is certainly a phrase typically used by militaries and the governments that command them to euphemistically minimize undue impact to civilian infrastructure.

4212:

Note that it will be very tricky to write something for this because this attack was a seemingly highly planned surprise attack that coincided with a holiday and anniversary.

2791:

I understand due to Knowledge's neutrality rules that Hamas can't be mentioned as a terrorist organisation (much to my frustration) but an adapted version should be included

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The notion that the carpet bombing of Gaza is "targeted" is messaging that seems somewhat straight out of Israeli army press materials, though they've for sure "targeted"

3688:

Should we sum the number of killed militants and civilians to have 2,555? We can then open a parenthesis to mention the number of civilian and militant deaths separately.

895:

Yet it is factual. And therefore somebody needs to find a source who tells that, link it, and re-write the fact that it's the deadliest terror attack in Israel's history.

155:"After clearing militants from affected areas, Israel responded with airstrikes in the densely-populated Gaza Strip targeting strategic buildings and military targets..." 152:

Apologies if this is a minor gripe, but I do think this is important and I can't edit it myself as I'm under the 500 edits count. The line in question is from the header:

4316:

actually, I moved it again to the fourth paragraph where I saw similar info - justification of the attack. I think it’s better there and fits in while using fewer words.

3023:

https://twitter.com/anadoluagency/status/1711812910035407131?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1711881155581190601%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es4_&ref_url=

1923:

The claim of baby beheadings has been debunked. Furthermore, I would implore you to not assume every Muslim or Arabic speaker is in cahoots to downplay what’s going on.

1601:: These groups are not officially recognized as legitimate military forces. They are often considered terrorist organizations by many countries and international bodies. 1521:

Instead of finding alternatives however you just simply removed mention of the UN, and violated 1RR. There's no difference; someone who committed crimes is a criminal.

4403:

Proposal: There should be a page specifically for the 2023 South Israel Attacks, the initial terrorist attack that sparked this war, separate from the war page itself

1108:@Selfstudier Please define clearly "balance of reliable independent RS" and who is the arbiter that is going to decide whether the threshold has been met. Thank you. 3620: 1678:: These groups are generally considered non-state actors and are often subject to sanctions and condemnation for their actions, particularly for targeting civilians. 3323:

German Defence Minister Boris Pistorius on Wednesday approved a request by Israel to use the drones, Spiegel reported, adding the 16 German pilots in training were

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the militant group ruling Gaza, which has said it launched the attack in response to mounting Palestinian suffering under Israel’s occupation and blockade of Gaza.

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After the attack was known Apache helicopters were deployed preventing anybody to cross the border. Many of these Gazans must have been trapped and finally killed.

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These are not alleged accounts; those are facts confirmed by International organizations. Therefore it is wrong to write that those war crimes "...are claimed by

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claim (banned chemical weapons) backed by no top level sources, let alone a consensus of RS? I really don't understand these changes and they should be reverted.

3249:

See talk page message above this one. Translation request was needed as another editor said the original report in Arabic was drones for Ukraine and not Israel.

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Interesting how complete blockade of basic necessities such as food and water to 2 million civilians constitutes a "targeted military operation" in your eyes.

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Yes good point. It should be a multiple of those whose bodies were found, unless the majority of those who went out-and-in then went back out again afterwards.

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since there is no claim by Palestinians on the number of Israeli's killed. Furthermore the number of 1,500 militants killed comes from first party sources,

1717:

Watch has previously found Israel's strikes in Gaza to be war crimes, and stressed those findings again when issuing statements about the present bombings.

725:

A declerance of war, is a country attacking another, and attacking the other's *military*, to seize land, and control the population. Not to slaughter them.

1507:

difference between saying someone committed crimes and someone is a criminal. Beyond that collecting evidence is also different from making an accusation.

3320:

five of these drones from Israel's arms maker IAI (ISRAI.UL), with two of them still deployed in Israel for training German drone pilots, the source said.

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Please explain how "collecting evidence of war crimes committed by all sides" does not mean that they have charachterized the conduct as being war crimes

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Why would he need sources when all he is saying is that the first sentence is contradictory to the second? It's not very good writing, at the very least.

4063:

Carpet bombing or Saturation bombing is a large area bombardment done in a progressive manner to inflict damage in every part of a selected area of land

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Usually careied by extremists, intended to slaughter civilians, *to promote their agenda / ideals*, and literally "Installing terror onto the streets".

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Important information that was omitted was added. For example, a sentence was added to mention Hamas's history of rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.

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We should prioritize seeking independent sources rather than relying solely on Israeli sources to substantiate this grave claim, adhering to the core

1537:

Collecting evidence does not mean that they believe that war crimes have been committed. Once the evidence is collected it may or may not prove this.

1043:(Which probably still for now counts as a continuing terror attack, since some Kibbutzim, Cities and areas still has Hamas' terrorists lurking around. 3630: 2570:

I think the Israeli claim of 1,500 militants killed claim should not be placed into the infobox, it should only be added inside the article. It adds

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NOTE: The difference between a war and a military operation, is that a war is usually a large-scale armed fight, while an operation is a smaller one.

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It should be qualified as an allegation, if only from one source, and not stated in wiki voice. If that's the case it might not be due in the lede.

1973:

Agreed. Multiple reliable sources already confirmed the beheadings. Can an authorized editor please change it so that there isn't any equivocation?

656:

Imho that article seems speculative. Might be prudent to wait and see what happens in Washington before including anything concrete in the article.

2365: 275: 4420:(though I don't think the year will be needed in this case given the sheer magnitude of the event, you could easily slap 2023 in front of either) 4031: 559: 1838:

violent or destructive acts (such as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demandsV

1555:

violent or destructive acts (such as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demandsV

1224:

Accoridng to Israeli media and sources 1000+ (mostly civilians) killed/murdered by Hamas. Deadliest mass killing of Jews since the holocaust.

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The German defence forces: we have agree to an Israeli request to use two (I’m assuming two types) of our drones in the fight against hamas”

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Ya it’s usually like this, as of now literally? All Palestinian civilian casualty claims are attributed while none of the Israeli ones are

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Maybe the 9/11 part can come as a side note: "(...) It is the deadliest terror attack in Israel's history; regarded to be "Israel's 9/11".

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is a controversial and potentially euphemistic term, and the very HRW article cited at the end of the sentence describes the war crimes as

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https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/israeli-woman-hailed-as-a-hero-for-killing-terrorists/news-story/aebb533af17feddc4ebe761c7ba38ae5

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NOTE: Again, the terms are broad, in some cases even refrencing the same thing, and in some cases meaning two completely different things.

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For the time being, we should remove the allegation from the article's introduction until concrete evidence can substantiate the claims.

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someone deleted the entire paragraph which I reverted to reach consensus, in my trimming I made it more neutral? What do you guys think

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specific cases from the past year as reasons given by Hamas unless they are in particular mentioned by Hamas. At current they seem like

2872:, citing Hamas spokesman Ghazi Hamad in a BBC interview, who said the attacks came as a response to settler violence in the West Bank. 1387: 1188: 453: 4205: 3953: 3602: 2303:

With around 10 attacks involving around 100 fighters I think 1000 is a good estimate without precise sources. Probably an overestimate.

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Now you all have to look back in the article history to find those references that were omitted by the aforementioned Knowledge user.

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page first it will probably be removed. Isn't that what the talk page is for? Determining what information is relevant to an article?

900: 766: 209: 3055: 2987: 1653:: The IDF has a hierarchical structure, command chain, and established rules of engagement. It operates as a standing military force. 1215: 1094:

thing is well understood by now, we apply this label in WP voice if the balance of reliable independent RS is using that descriptor.

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due to an uptick in violence in 2023. Hamas cites the Israeli occupation and blockade as rationale for launching the initial attack.

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we don’t see almost a full paragraph discussing the history of Al-Qaeda’s grievances with the U.S. as justification for the attack.

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Not sure what this has to do with war crimes. He doesn't mention war crimes at all here. Maybe it belongs to the Reactions section.

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When at least one side is using violence, mass murder, and yes, literally, "Terror", on the other side, it's a war including terror.

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The same way Hamas have denied their targeting of civilians, the following claim should be mentioned too in terms of impartiality.

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Yes but I can't edit the page because I have less than 500 edits. If you can, or if another editor can then it'd be appreciated.

2415:. Furthermore the references does not make a connection with the airstrikes and the ongoing Hamas-Hezbollah clashes, making this 2037:

Before featuring it prominently in the opening section, we must first acquire more substantial and definitive evidence for this.

338: 3030: 1898: 1417:"Hamas has continued to fire rockets at Israel, with Israeli forces and Lebanon-based Hezbollah fighters also exchanging fire. 719:

A terror attack is an attack carried specifically on civilians of a certain country / or people, in order to hurt or kill them.

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this is truly to be considered a "terror attack" then wouldn't the death toll rank it amongst the likes of attacks such as the

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https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/hamas-terrorists-murdered-40-babies-including-beheadings-says-report-2fdcCmtBjFvAcCCf5MDwKU

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And just like that, someone already removed the statement about it being the deadliest terrorist attack. What a surprise lol

3334:

these drones from Israel's IAI, but now Germany agreed that Israel could use them. And these drones will be piloted by IDF?

2219:) so either there were many more than 1,500 people who crossed the border, or not all of those 1,500 were Hamas militants. 2779:

Quite a historic moment since Israelis from across the globe are being required to fight against Hamas terrorist groups.

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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/10/10/israel-hamas-war-live-us-redoubles-israel-support-as-bombs-rain-on-gaza

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Is Germany a direct combatant? It sounds like they just approved the uses of drones? Does anyone have any clarification?

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the Palestinian side. Certainly, Hamas claims should be added when/if they make them, or other sources become available.

996:

Controversial? Definitely not. If it is the second-most killed terror attack in the world, by amount of dead, then it is.

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I concur, I believe that my original paragraph is a relatively good summary but it should be put in the later sections.

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In response to the Hamas rocket attacks, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared states of emergency and war.

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humanitarian law. The use of precision-guided weaponry and intelligence can support the claim of a targeted operation.

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Its short, just one sentence, and objectively states the obvious facts that have been used as context by numerous RS.

4155:

Indeed, the paragraph needs to be more neutral, however reducing it to just one sentence does not make much sense.

1209:

https://www.afr.com/world/middle-east/worst-atrocity-since-holocaust-jewish-leaders-back-retaliation-20231010-p5eb3v

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https://gazeteoksijen.com/dunya/israil-hamas-savisinda-6-gun-saldirida-1-turk-vatandasi-oldu-1-turk-de-kayip-191349

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Please change the wording of "reporters found no dead bodies" to "sources cannot independently confirm the report"

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My apologies, I misread. The IDF inability to confirm may well be relevant to the article as it currently stands.

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Qualified as according to that source, rather, not qualified as an allegation because it is only from one source.

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The Guardian link at the end of the sentence also redirects to their topic/live feed page. Perhaps we should link

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among others), and I could find only 1 source that mentions "carpet bombing" which was an article form Opindia.

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Finding an estimate for the number of civilian Gazan Palestinians killed while in Israel would be valuable too.

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https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-ofakim-one-womans-graceful-bravery-offers-precious-solace-to-a-grieving-nation/

3368:

So, Germany canceling their lease on two Israeli drones makes them a co-belligerent? That seems like nonsense.

3021:"Israeli army tells Anadolu that they have no information confirming allegations that ‘Hamas beheaded babies’" 1795: 1751: 1703: 1368: 1335: 1229: 863: 820: 805: 417: 1794:, while blocking the exit from the city for civilians, that would be internationally condemned as a war crime. 4179: 3965: 2739:

Israeli Airline overturns 41 year policy to bring Israelis over the world to Israel for their military drafts

1426:

This seems significant. should we say that Syria is involved in the infocolumn? Or is it too early for that?

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LIVEBLOG: As Israel Readies For Counteroffensive, Terror Attacks Continue, Death Toll Crosses 1,200 - I24NEWS

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So you want to remove the reference that a Hamas spokesman stated the attacks came due to settler violence?

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Why the Documented and Officially Confirmed rapes and baby beheadings "are only reported by some sources"?

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And when a large scale armed conflict, and with two entities fighting from their controlled areas, it's war.

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Residents across north told to shelter as several aircraft appear to infiltrate Israel | The Times of Israel

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We need to put back the casualties of Hamas militant. Even if it's an overestimation, it is still a source.

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is unrelated to this conflict. Israeli airstrikes have been taking place almost every week since 2013, see

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https://www.timesofisrael.com/was-hamass-attack-on-saturday-the-bloodiest-day-for-jews-since-the-holocaust/

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I like the idea of having one or two sentences to cover the background as part of a larger paragraph like

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It's definitely not debunked and the article refers to the Israeli Official making the statement to CNN.

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By "hault" I mean be killed by the Israeli military, or escape to areas that are safe for Hamas' people.)

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No, I would suggest to count/sum them in the both categories, i.e. a person would be counted as Israeli

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https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-misinformation-fact-check-e58f9ab8696309305c3ea2bfb269258e

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However, in another interview he says that the attack was to fight against "the occupation" by Israel.

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https://www.jta.org/2023/10/08/israel/was-hamas-attack-the-bloodiest-day-for-jews-since-the-holocaust

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I suggest we open a discussion on applying protection for the article, in order to prevent griefers.

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It is generally described as a terrorist attack in most RS, but the question is legitimate, see e.g.

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Israel’s military has also said that shells launched from Syria landed in open areas within Israel.

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If you were to add this to the reactions page, the Hamas statement should be moved there as well.

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I second this solution. It provides additional information and avoids the confusion feared above.

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Soldiers and police seem to account for about 2/3 of the killed. Attacking them is not terrorism.

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Hamas and hesbollah have sent drones and rockets to the north as per Times of Israel and i24 news

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If they are I must say I am super surprised we classified Germany as aa combatant before the US.

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More importantly, this is the deadliest attack against Jews in a single day since the Holocaust:

745:

uses its arms to kill innocents of the other side, to promote their political agenda/Ideologies.

1040:

May you please create a discussion on spilitting between the terror suprise attack and the war?

311:الدفاع الألمانية: وافقنا على طلب إسرائيلي باستخدام اثنتين من طائراتنا المسيرة في القتال ضد حماس 3669: 3641: 3469:

Ah! Should have seen that before opening this up. Page is getting quite long. My apologies. —

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haaretz gives the number 600 after previously saying 900. About 2/3 seems to be combatants.

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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/worst-massacre-of-jews-since-the-holocaust/ar-AA1hVS0R

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Civilian casualties are clearly labelled as such in other articles, major examples being

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For every war on Knowledge, we present claim of casualties from all sides for all sides.

1052:

Sorry to put the responsibility on you, it's just 5:15, and I really wanna head to sleep.

2688:

Noted, I have removed the dubious tag and updated the figure with the revised estimate.

2217: 2209: 4483:"More than 200 Israelis killed in surprise Hamas assault on Israel, 232 killed in Gaza" 4457: 4341:

and I've provided sources there too that mention them, so I'll add tht to the sentence.

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LIVEBLOG: Israel Continues Aerial Counteroffensive, Death Toll Crossed 1,200 - I24NEWS

3588:

There are 2 - 1 killed 1 missing - Turkish/Israeli nationals. Please update the list.

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Too macabre, as reporter states, for me to discuss further. In French. Here you go...

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It claims 40 babies were murdered with some being beheaded. Please add that, too.

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is different from militants driving several kilometers inside on a mission to kill.

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are also counted among "1,200+ killed" in the infobox. Do not see a problem here.

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If it was removed after it was agreed in the discussions, then it may be griefing.

3282:

Should any other country that is supporting Israel and be added to the infobox?

3183:

that the civilian box should be separate and blow, a la other precedents such as

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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El Al to fly on Saturday for 1st time in 41 years to bring reservists to Israel

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Hi, Reuters source says this (I just direct cite them), how to interpret this?

3187:. It may take some time for authoritative figures to be compiled, admittedly. 2805: 232:

because they imply doubt. If sources disagree whether something is true, then

2542:

since there is no claim by Palestinian militants. Also, it is highly dubious

2335:

reported as the indiscriminate murder of hundreds of civilians and captives.

670:

In a while the topic will be either a footnote or an article, wait and see.

560:

There was an RfC on the use of "Supported by" in military conflict infoboxes

2366:"Analysis: Why did it take Israel three days to return to Gaza's boundary?" 4139:

devotes an entire paragraph to events that happened before the actual war.

4034:. Fyi, your Indian source isn't the only one to use the same slang as me. 3065:

This incident is now included in the article. This topic is now redundant.

2495:

It's still better to put it out there regardless of whether it is dubious.

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fairness of this claim depends on the proportionality of their response.

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Paywalled sources are allowed and there is nothing wrong with them. See

2923:

Palestinian Islamic Jihad active both in Gaza Strip and Southern Lebanon

2864:

We say that Hamas used a justification for the attack as the following:

2203:

How many Palestinians entered Israel, and how many were Hamas militants?

1698:

Speaking about the Israel side, would their bombings of Gaza qualify as

1204:

https://news.yahoo.com/deadliest-single-attack-jews-since-115911584.html

1005:

And not regarding specifically the war, but the attack that started it.

580:

It's also sufficiently blindingly obvious that it hardly needs saying.

4556:"Israel pounds Gaza as PM Netanyahu warns of 'long and difficult war'" 944:

OK, that's fair. I apologize, I misunderstood what you were asking. --

476:(i.e., "collective punishment" requires intent) and not "collateral". 2283:

Four of the five Twitter videos above are clearly far inside Israel.

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The following changes were made to make the paragraph more neutral:

3352:

reference for this was translated in the discussion above this one.

4603:

templates on this page, but the references will not show without a

4338:

There seems to be support below for adding the number of casualties

3612:

President Herzog's statements, should be added to warcrimes section

2413:

Israeli–Syrian ceasefire line incidents during the Syrian civil war

1853:

This has been raised numerous times. Once again, we do not conduct

4009:, is a blacklisted source on Knowledge as I am sure you know well. 3503:

Is there a reason you overwrote a bunch of changes to the lead in

2703:

There has been found 1500 terrorist bodies in the gaza strip (IDF)

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mentioning it as the "the deadliest attack in Israel in decades".

602:

This is completely redundant to the "Military reactions" section.

4357:

So now there is one sentence in the second paragraph that reads "

3899:

bombing of innocent civilians by termed a Human Rights Outrage?

2800:

I think it should probably be mentioned. Would it fit best under

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https://theintercept.com/2023/10/11/israel-hamas-disinformation/

2650:- The number was revised down to 1,000. IDF spokesperson quoted 1180: 2459:

article, I should have looked at the source before posting it.

2208:

showing masses of unarmed Palestinians in Southern Israel (e.g.

412:

Add jenin brigade into the war since they joined earlier today

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Evidently, no casualties were reported among the residents of

132:

Add exactly what to map? Map does not depict anything aerial.

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https://twitter.com/margothaddad/status/1711756690574479651#m

3455:

to add the WSJ if you feel it complements the BBC. Thanks!

372:

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 October 2023

1994:

The kidnapping of IDF officer Nimrod Aloni is a fake. See

751:

as Jews, Gays, Gypsies, prisoners of war, Communists, etc.

162:

targeting strategic buildings and military targets" or "...

4435:

That seems to have happened recently with the creation of

2498:

Israeli source is the only reliable source at this moment.

1998:

Please correct the informarion about him within the page.

1884:

Again, these war crimes and acts have been confirmed by

4539:"Hamas launches large-scale "combined attack" on Israel" 1736:

United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict

3879:

lead that references the wider Arab-Israeli conflict.

3504: 3421: 4042:, but yes, it's somewhat slang. Most sources just say 2475:

Infobox, 1,500 militants killed in Israel (per Israel)

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Citation 151 about the Kfar Aza massacre is paywalled

2609:

the past during the Six Day and Yom Kippur wars, see

927:

Not sure, yet I support you in adding said statement.

641:) one with sufficient authorization could still add. 337:

the Arabic text you posted does not mention Ukraine.

4359:

Prior to the war, tensions rose in the decades-long

4220:

Prior to the war, tensions rose in the decades-long

2437:

so we have to remove Syria attribution from infobox

4105:Before the attack, Israeli-Palestinians clashes at 3723:

Significant bias in a paragraph in the lead section

999:

You cannot argue against the amount of dead people.

3848:For reference, if we look at the lead section in 1790:Of course if they are going to do something like 2409:Iran–Israel conflict during the Syrian civil war 2300:So the 1500 adds Hamas terrorists and "curious". 1748:Collateral_damage#International_humanitarian_law 509:Both of these suggestions seem sensible to me. 148:Israel Airstrikes "targeted strategic buildings" 4012:Would love to see you being able to provide an 3795:I agree, it can be rephrased to. the lines of " 1742:will result in deaths of numerous civilians or 117:can anyone add this to the corresponding area? 4522:"Almost 1,100 killed in Israel war with Hamas" 1177:Here's a source calling it a terrorist attack: 692:Deadliest terrorist attack in Israeli history? 103:confirmation of northern invasion 11th october 1363:I assume that all people who appear in table 1008:(Which by the way should be another article) 8: 4117:had killed 247 Palestinians and 36 Israelis. 4032:bunker busters in the densely populated area 1764:Your analysis is not currently supported by 2827:Already done. Used a different source tho. 1256:Counting Israeli dual-nationals as separate 4477: 4475: 3900: 1682:is the best option her as per my opinion. 1560: 2802:2023_Israel–Hamas_war#Reactions_in_Israel 826:topic is one that could easily slip into 701:in 2014 and 9/11 in terms of death toll? 208:And there is no citation for it, either. 4375:killed 247 Palestinians and 36 Israelis. 158:I believe it should be rephrased as "... 4578:was invoked but never defined (see the 4505:was invoked but never defined (see the 4471: 4038:, whatever that is, has to, as has the 3950:2600:4040:2867:EB00:28C4:6AC4:32A8:A254 3704: 3599:2A02:3102:9D00:1940:6394:CC6A:4EC2:1149 3040:The IDF refuses to confirm the claim. 2357: 1676:Hamas and other terrorist organizations 1657:Hamas and other terrorist organizations 1638:Hamas and other terrorist organizations 1618:Hamas and other terrorist organizations 1599:Hamas and other terrorist organizations 1442: 305:Translation request - Arabic to English 4422:2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:8CA:D767:50FD:E1DD 4358: 4219: 4104: 3993:The bombing is Gaza is well covered ( 2879: 2865: 2333: 1840:2A0D:6FC7:51D:DF76:98D3:C3D8:B4D4:F532 1750:, see last paragraph in this section. 1240:2A02:AA1:102F:523D:FC79:77E1:75A2:C6BF 1149:2A02:AA1:102F:523D:FC79:77E1:75A2:C6BF 310: 309:Can an Arabic speaker translate, this 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3052:2601:40:C481:A940:E908:2F8E:C8E4:99D6 2984:2601:40:C481:A940:E908:2F8E:C8E4:99D6 2927:As documented by the article itself, 2870:a WSJ update to their dynamic updates 2501:We need to get claim from both sides 2457:October 2023 Syrian-Israeli exchanges 2162:Agree on seeking independent sources. 2029:Removal of the unverified allegation. 1441:Too early. See the above discussion: 1212:2601:40:C481:A940:BC5B:2D91:8072:848E 7: 4030:Also reported is the Israeli use of 1365:Foreign and dual-national casualties 1278:Foreign and dual-national casualties 960:rather controversial statement, no? 4591: 4570: 4497: 4268:Thanks for the Pearl Harbor ref ! 3732:" is biased in the following ways: 2654:and also by the public broadcaster 454:United Nations Human Rights Council 3050:No more disputes over this matter 2860:Hamas justification for the attack 2455:Oh, thank you. I took it from the 24: 633:Effect on the Russo-Ukrainian war 493:the actual statement by the UNHRC 447:"Collateral damage" - can we not? 260:Inbal Lieberman of Kibbutz Nir Am 4135:We can see that the lead of the 4103:How about something like this: " 3703:This has already been addressed 379: 29: 4452:Linking this to the discussion 2578:. 12:25, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 1895:2A02:14F:1F2:A1DA:0:0:9FDC:528F 1385:https://t.me/tg301military/5244 1381:1300 killed now, see the source 4597:<ref group=lower-alpha: --> 4206:War in Afghanistan (2001–2021) 1990:The kidnapping of Nimrod aloni 1981:) 15:14, 11 October 2023claims 1334:British citizen, for example. 224:We generally avoid words like 1: 4605:{{reflist|group=lower-alpha}} 3327:because of the Hamas attack." 2841:Thanks once again Borgenland 2723:This has already been added. 1181:https://www.jewishagency.org/ 4466:00:35, 13 October 2023 (UTC) 4448:19:42, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4437:2023 Hamas attacks on Israel 4430:23:02, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 4389:16:57, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4361:Israeli–Palestinian conflict 4353:16:54, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4334:16:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4312:15:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4278:12:52, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4264:11:36, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4243:10:58, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4222:Israeli–Palestinian conflict 4198:10:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4184:09:28, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4165:04:19, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4151:01:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4131:01:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 4089:22:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 4075:12:23, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 4056:12:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 4026:11:53, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3982:11:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3958:16:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3944:11:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3915:10:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3889:10:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3870:10:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3844:10:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3811:10:56, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3791:08:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3775:07:50, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3717:23:17, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3698:11:58, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3674:10:05, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3659:09:11, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3646:09:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3631:09:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3607:09:03, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3572:07:36, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3543:00:51, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3521:14:45, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 3483:05:10, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 3465:05:08, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 3446:05:01, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 3395:06:26, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3378:04:29, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3364:03:27, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3344:03:22, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3309:03:20, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3292:03:12, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3278:03:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3261:03:06, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3238:03:05, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3223:03:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3197:04:51, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3175:05:04, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3149:04:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3135:04:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3115:04:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3090:02:52, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3076:02:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 3060:09:56, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3035:06:02, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3015:01:49, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2992:01:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2961:02:30, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2945:17:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 2917:00:45, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2902:04:39, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2878:This matches AP which says: 2846:15:12, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2837:15:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2823:13:19, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2814:12:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2796:10:55, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2786:10:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2733:00:37, 13 October 2023 (UTC) 2718:09:46, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2698:16:55, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2684:16:22, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2668:15:49, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2637:15:10, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2623:13:34, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2593:13:24, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2556:08:33, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2531:08:05, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2511:08:03, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2490:07:52, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2469:10:25, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2447:10:24, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2429:10:06, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2348:05:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2315:00:28, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2293:00:16, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2279:00:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2262:22:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2245:22:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2229:22:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2189:00:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2174:00:12, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2156:22:06, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2142:21:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2125:21:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2108:21:54, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2078:21:51, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2063:21:36, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2047:21:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 2023:15:24, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 2008:13:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1963:17:19, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 1948:20:42, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1933:20:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1919:13:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1903:13:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1886:international organizations. 1867:01:29, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 1848:10:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1823:19:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 1804:19:54, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1780:01:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 1760:00:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 1730:23:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1712:17:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1692:14:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1575:11:20, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1547:11:25, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1531:10:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1517:10:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1502:10:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1492:Plus you have violated 1RR. 1487:10:31, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1459:07:03, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 1436:09:28, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1396:18:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1377:23:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 1359:22:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 1344:21:42, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 1324:03:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1306:21:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 1291:21:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 1271:21:02, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 1248:22:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1234:09:49, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1220:07:43, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 1157:22:00, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 1118:22:09, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 684:06:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 666:02:21, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 651:17:13, 10 October 2023 (UTC) 627:15:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 612:09:23, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 598:"USA military aid to Israel" 590:07:04, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 576:06:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 554:06:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 533:04:09, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 519:04:02, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 505:03:44, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 486:03:39, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 441:03:59, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 422:03:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 364:03:26, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 347:03:24, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 329:02:54, 12 October 2023 (UTC) 300:21:01, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 254:23:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 218:18:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 201:17:46, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 187:reliable source publications 180:17:38, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 142:21:57, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 127:17:00, 11 October 2023 (UTC) 3348:Side comment, the Arabic - 2931:and its military wing, the 2388:Israeli airstrikes in Syria 1137:17:17, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 1104:17:09, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 1086:12:51, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 1065:02:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 1033:02:10, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 1018:02:02, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 986:02:01, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 970:01:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 955:01:52, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 940:01:50, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 920:01:47, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 905:01:44, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 872:01:48, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 841:01:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 814:01:37, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 790:09:19, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 771:01:35, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 711:00:57, 9 October 2023 (UTC) 464:notes (in keeping with the 406:to reactivate your request. 394:has been answered. Set the 339:The Great Mule of Eupatoria 4632: 4216:would be a good reference. 1586:Legitimacy and Recognition 189:that support your concern. 2929:Palestinian Islamic Jihad 2403:The Israeli airstrike in 1792:the destruction of Grozny 1645:Organizational Structure: 427:Source(s) first, please. 3875:history of the conflict. 2743:Times of Israel writes: 2708:clashes with terrorists 185:Please provide multiple 4016:sources, if you can. 2971:Here's a free article. 2611:Israeli Military Censor 2405:Deir ez-Zor Governorate 234:we describe who said it 4418:South Israel Massacres 4292:Alexandria Bucephalous 4270:Alexandria Bucephalous 4214:Attack on Pearl Harbor 4190:Alexandria Bucephalous 4157:Alexandria Bucephalous 4067:Alexandria Bucephalous 4018:Alexandria Bucephalous 3936:Alexandria Bucephalous 3881:Alexandria Bucephalous 3819:Alexandria Bucephalous 3803:Alexandria Bucephalous 3767:Alexandria Bucephalous 3584:Turkish dual nationals 3409:Replacing WSJ with BBC 1700:indiscriminate attacks 699:Camp Speicher massacre 4254:support your version 3824:Arab–Israeli conflict 3027:Supreme Deliciousness 1746:. This boils down to 1664:International Status: 392:2023 Israel–Hamas war 42:of past discussions. 18:Talk:Israel–Hamas war 4574:The named reference 4501:The named reference 4414:South Israel Attacks 3986:Small world, right @ 3850:September 11 attacks 3356:Weather Event Writer 3301:Weather Event Writer 3270:Weather Event Writer 3253:Weather Event Writer 2843:שי - LionFireKing404 2820:שי - LionFireKing404 2793:שי - LionFireKing404 2783:שי - LionFireKing404 859:Here is one of refs 637:More material (e.g. 539:Supporters of Israel 356:Weather Event Writer 321:Weather Event Writer 4377:" I hope that's ok. 4044:"heavy bombardment" 1881:Israeli sources". 1796:My very best wishes 1752:My very best wishes 1704:My very best wishes 1443:#Syrias involvement 1369:My very best wishes 1336:My very best wishes 864:My very best wishes 821:My very best wishes 806:My very best wishes 4611:template (see the 3684:Palestinian deaths 3100:Infobox casualties 1408:syria involvement? 317:"Hamas" was said? 3917: 3905:comment added by 3248: 2937:SaintPaulOfTarsus 2544:first party claim 2370:www.aljazeera.com 2091:sources for this. 1744:collateral damage 1577: 1565:comment added by 1465:UN and war crimes 1351:User6619018899273 1298:User6619018899273 1276:Agree. Also, the 1263:User6619018899273 604:VintageVernacular 470:collateral damage 410: 409: 252: 100: 99: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 4623: 4618: 4617: 4616: 4610: 4606: 4602: 4598: 4585: 4584: 4583: 4577: 4569: 4563: 4562: 4552: 4546: 4545: 4535: 4529: 4528: 4518: 4512: 4511: 4510: 4504: 4496: 4490: 4489: 4479: 4331: 4322: 4309: 4300: 4253: 4240: 4231: 3867: 3858: 3841: 3832: 3570: 3539: 3533: 3529:, any reason? — 3517: 3511: 3502: 3479: 3473: 3442: 3436: 3420:Did you mean to 3419: 3242: 3168: 3128: 3011: 3005: 2933:Al-Quds Brigades 2868:. The source is 2607: 2569: 2402: 2380: 2379: 2377: 2376: 2362: 2346: 2139: 2133: 2122: 2116: 1727: 1721: 1476: 1452: 1075: 981: 950: 836: 824: 682: 639:Sen. Josh Hawley 617:Merged already. 569: 434: 401: 397: 383: 382: 376: 249: 244: 242: 78: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 4631: 4630: 4626: 4625: 4624: 4622: 4621: 4620: 4608: 4604: 4600: 4596: 4594: 4592: 4588: 4575: 4573: 4571: 4566: 4554: 4553: 4549: 4537: 4536: 4532: 4520: 4519: 4515: 4502: 4500: 4498: 4493: 4481: 4480: 4473: 4405: 4387: 4351: 4327: 4318: 4305: 4296: 4247: 4236: 4227: 4149: 4129: 3863: 3854: 3837: 3828: 3727:The paragraph " 3725: 3686: 3672: 3644: 3614: 3586: 3559: 3541: 3537: 3532:Red-tailed hawk 3531: 3519: 3515: 3510:Red-tailed hawk 3509: 3496: 3481: 3477: 3472:Red-tailed hawk 3471: 3452:Red-tailed hawk 3444: 3440: 3435:Red-tailed hawk 3434: 3413: 3411: 3284:LuxembourgLover 3230:LuxembourgLover 3215:LuxembourgLover 3211: 3173: 3164: 3133: 3124: 3102: 3013: 3009: 3004:Red-tailed hawk 3003: 2969: 2925: 2862: 2751: 2741: 2705: 2601: 2563: 2477: 2392: 2390: 2385: 2384: 2383: 2374: 2372: 2364: 2363: 2359: 2342: 2331: 2277: 2205: 2172: 2137: 2132:entropyandvodka 2131: 2120: 2115:entropyandvodka 2114: 2031: 1992: 1975:AtypicalPhantom 1875: 1833: 1734:I see. This is 1725: 1720:entropyandvodka 1719: 1545: 1470: 1467: 1457: 1448: 1410: 1258: 1069: 977: 946: 832: 818: 694: 671: 635: 600: 574: 565: 541: 449: 439: 430: 414:103.209.207.126 399: 395: 380: 374: 307: 292:Infinity Knight 262: 247: 240:Thebiguglyalien 238: 156: 150: 119:LionFireKing404 105: 74: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 4629: 4627: 4590: 4587: 4586: 4564: 4547: 4530: 4513: 4491: 4470: 4469: 4468: 4450: 4404: 4401: 4400: 4399: 4398: 4397: 4396: 4395: 4394: 4393: 4392: 4391: 4383: 4365:Al-Aqsa mosque 4363:as clashes at 4355: 4347: 4280: 4266: 4217: 4210: 4202: 4201: 4200: 4170: 4169: 4168: 4167: 4145: 4125: 4107:Al-Aqsa mosque 4100: 4099: 4098: 4097: 4096: 4095: 4094: 4093: 4092: 4091: 4010: 3991: 3962: 3961: 3960: 3933: 3932: 3931: 3927: 3896: 3895: 3894: 3893: 3892: 3891: 3876: 3815: 3814: 3813: 3764: 3763: 3760: 3742: 3741: 3737: 3724: 3721: 3720: 3719: 3685: 3682: 3681: 3680: 3679: 3678: 3677: 3676: 3668: 3652: 3651:the situation. 3640: 3625: 3619: 3613: 3610: 3591: 3585: 3582: 3581: 3580: 3579: 3578: 3577: 3576: 3575: 3574: 3556: 3553: 3545: 3535: 3513: 3489: 3488: 3487: 3486: 3485: 3475: 3438: 3410: 3407: 3406: 3405: 3404: 3403: 3402: 3401: 3400: 3399: 3398: 3397: 3382: 3381: 3380: 3366: 3328: 3325:returning home 3321: 3314: 3240: 3210: 3207: 3206: 3205: 3204: 3203: 3202: 3201: 3200: 3199: 3162: 3122: 3101: 3098: 3097: 3096: 3095: 3094: 3093: 3092: 3048: 3020: 3018: 3017: 3007: 2968: 2965: 2964: 2963: 2924: 2921: 2920: 2919: 2861: 2858: 2857: 2856: 2855: 2854: 2853: 2852: 2851: 2850: 2849: 2848: 2778: 2750: 2745: 2740: 2737: 2736: 2735: 2704: 2701: 2671: 2670: 2644: 2643: 2642: 2641: 2640: 2639: 2596: 2595: 2561: 2560: 2559: 2558: 2519: 2518: 2514: 2513: 2499: 2496: 2476: 2473: 2472: 2471: 2449: 2389: 2386: 2382: 2381: 2356: 2355: 2351: 2330: 2327: 2326: 2325: 2324: 2323: 2322: 2321: 2320: 2319: 2318: 2317: 2304: 2301: 2298: 2273: 2250: 2204: 2201: 2200: 2199: 2198: 2197: 2196: 2195: 2194: 2193: 2192: 2191: 2168: 2160: 2159: 2158: 2092: 2080: 2030: 2027: 2026: 2025: 2013:Already done. 1991: 1988: 1983: 1982: 1971: 1970: 1969: 1968: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1874: 1871: 1870: 1869: 1832: 1829: 1828: 1827: 1826: 1825: 1810: 1809:clearly would. 1787: 1786: 1785: 1784: 1783: 1782: 1762: 1695: 1694: 1679: 1673: 1667: 1660: 1654: 1648: 1641: 1635: 1629: 1621: 1615: 1609: 1602: 1596: 1590: 1582: 1550: 1549: 1541: 1535: 1534: 1533: 1504: 1466: 1463: 1462: 1461: 1446: 1409: 1406: 1405: 1404: 1403: 1402: 1401: 1400: 1399: 1398: 1382: 1328: 1327: 1326: 1308: 1257: 1254: 1253: 1252: 1251: 1250: 1226:Homerethegreat 1222: 1206: 1201: 1196: 1191: 1186: 1183: 1178: 1174: 1173: 1172: 1171: 1170: 1169: 1168: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1164: 1163: 1162: 1161: 1160: 1159: 1145: 1144: 1143: 1142: 1141: 1140: 1139: 1125: 1122: 1121: 1120: 1053: 1050: 1047: 1044: 1041: 1006: 1003: 1000: 997: 994: 988: 942: 928: 907: 883: 882: 881: 880: 879: 878: 877: 876: 875: 874: 848: 847: 846: 845: 844: 843: 830:discussion. -- 795: 794: 793: 792: 774: 773: 760: 759: 758: 755: 747: 746: 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