Talk:Israel Shamir

2624:

inclusion of pseudoscientific views should not give them undue weight. The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such. An explanation of how scientists have reacted to pseudoscientific theories should be prominently included. This helps us to describe differing views fairly. This also applies to other fringe subjects, for instance, forms of historical revisionism that are considered by more reliable sources to either lack evidence or actively ignore evidence, such as claims that Pope John Paul I was murdered, or that the Apollo moon landing was faked.

1915:

word copied the original text here, which seems to be circular reporting. On Knowledge articles project-wide, there is general consensus against including every wild claim made a person, unless there is some sense they are DUE (notable) or real. Here in particular it's a problem, as it seems Shamir edited into the article himself when he wrote it, and sourced to a website which is full of the wildest claims imaginable and fringe conspiracy theories. As for the discussion in general, if we can't resolve it, I guess we'll have to make a RFC about it later?

1375:, then surely it requires us to say that it is notable (that they are perhaps statements from a important primary source). However, where is the evidence these claims are notable? They seem to be just claims from his personal website. Moreover, searching in Hebrew, there is no mention of any of these claims (so it really seems like we are just reprinting random, self-promotional claims from the website here, without WP:RS, notability or secondary coverage, and with the knowledge that it is an unreliable source). 3008:"כדי לבקר את אמו, נאלץ ישראל שמיר לחצות את הקו הירוק. והוא אכן עושה זאת. מפגש מוזר. האם פעילה ב"מולדת" - הבן מפיץ תעמולה אנטישמית. "אני שייכת לתנועת 'מולדת' מיום הקמתה", אומרת אסתר שמרלר-לומובסקי. "אני מתנחלת. העניין של ישראל קשה לי. בתור אמא, אני מעדיפה לא להוסיף. הוא קיבל חינוך ציוני. הוא היה פעיל ציוני. עשה דברים גדולים. מאוד כואב לי מה שקרה לו. הייתי רוצה להבין בעצמי. אני חושבת שזו מחלה. בעצם זו מחלה נפשית. הוא נראה שפוי. הוא לא מופרע. הוא כאילו חכם. אבל משהו לא בריא". היא מדברת על סף בכי." 957: 936: 2137:(judgement, theory or assessment of quality). The inclusion or exclusion of facts from an article can be done selectively to promote or undermine a POV (opinion etc). The material in question does not appear to promote or undermine a POV - except perhaps that it is "self promotional". However, that it is "self promotional" is not an arguement made in comments herein. I conclude that the cited policy links are not pertinent to determining the matter. 1702:(especially considering their origin). The question is whether it is DUE to include the claims here. Is there any evidence these have any notability, beyond being sentences written on his website (that he used to cite himself for this article)? Unless there is any actual source for these claims, they are clearly fringe claims with no evidence for them, which are UNDUE and originate from his own self-sourcing and self-editing of this article. 1188: 2307:- That Shamir claims to have been a paratrooper is reliably sourced to multiple secondary sources. They are not presented as anything more than the claims of Shamir. The article does not present anything that is not in dispute in any way, Shamir in fact does claim such and such about himself and those claims have been noted by sources that cover him. The arguments to remove have been based on nothing resembling any Knowledge policy. 21: 643: 622: 265: 1045: 653: 152: 131: 866: 848: 764: 743: 162: 2486:. In particular, the relative space that an article devotes to different aspects of a fringe theory should follow from consideration primarily of the independent sources. Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles. Independent sources are also necessary to determine the relationship of a fringe theory to mainstream scholarly discourse. 774: 967: 100: 1874:

claim is prima facie absurd, and the other paratroopers would know him, while he has more or less zero trace of any life in Israel beyond the Knowledge article he wrote, or had written, in several languages). So the issue is whether it is DUE or not to include his personal claims, that he added to this article for self-promotion, and sourced to a personal website.

2053:

of the sources I have been directed to by this discussion question the credibility, though one of these does so by a quote attributed to a third party. The comment by that party is not well substantiated. "Life history" from the sources (save one) is attributed to Shamir and his web page - two explicitly citing the web page as the source, while the

876: 1797:. The citations here are to the Times of Israel and to Tablet. Are you seriously challenging either of those as reliable sources? They consider his website relevant to provide information about Shamir. They also see the need to explicitly attribute it to Shamir's website. And while you are at it, please read 2843:

I dont really have a problem with most of what has been removed, but some of it is a problem, but Ill keep that discussion up a section. But beyond that, there are a number of substandard sources being used here to make fairly serious charges against Shamir. Regardless of what you think about Shamir,

1873:

There is no evidence Shamir was a paratrooper in Paratrooper Brigade, or was a BBC journalist. These were simply inserted by himself into this article when he was editing it, and he linked to his own website. These are fringe claims (if he was a paratrooper, it would be easy to verify in Israel - the

1847:

And who said anything about ToI or Tablet "endorsing" anything? Nothing in FRIND supports your view on this, nothing says anything about a source needed to analyze what somebody says about themselves. Yall objected to citing Shamir directly, and even if that is a bit silly fine, that is no longer the

1653:

By analogy, this is the equivalent of if I was a fringe claimant known mainly for fabrications, writing my own Knowledge article, which is sourced to my personal website - in which I said I dated some supermodels and was a Topgun fighter pilot - would there any reason it would be DUE for Knowledge to

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It's not an op-ed - it looks like it is in a weekend supplement/magazine section - a multi-page feature (as opposed to dry reporting in the main section - which are are short and terse) - these sections often have first person reporting and anecdotes (and not all the piece in first person) - but are

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Ben Dror 2003 is not an opinion piece AFAICT (reads as a full length feature, includes response by Shamir), and it is in Maariv - at the time a major newspaper (a decade+ later bought by Makor Rishon - which has the archive). Ball is in the Daily Beast, not the Guardian. Brown, Guardian staff, would

2052:

I have considered the arguements made, the evidence presented and the relevant policies, guidelines and advice. This is a case where there is little to no "life history" on the subject that is independent of the subject. Furthermore, there appears to be reason to doubt the credibility of same. Three

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the material is not sourced to his website, it is sourced to ToI and Tablet, and if you continue to refuse to acknowledge that what is in the article is reliably sourced to secondary sources then I dont see how we are supposed to agree on anything when we cant agree on what is indisputably factually

1888:

I dont know why you seem to be insisting on replying to an argument nobody is making. The article does not say he was a paratrooper. It does not say he worked for BBC. It does say that he says this about himself. And that is not sourced to his personal website. That is sourced to the Times of Israel

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They are independent reliable sources - however all they say is that Shamir's website contains these claims - so yes, that passes V, however neither TOI nor Tablet endorse these claims. Per FRIND we should prefer a discussion analyzing Shamir's claims as opposed to merely quoting them. It is unclear

1675:

two different reliable sources have been provided that say Shamir says this about himself. The article reports it just as those reliable sources does. There is zero basis for the claim that Times of Israel or Tablet relied on Knowledge in reporting that Shamir's website says this about Shamir, given

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We discuss views that are not widely held when they are discussed in reliable sources and we clarify that they are not confirmed. That is exactly what is happening here. People making vague waves to policies that explicitly contradict their arguments would do well to read the policies they claim to

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These are problematic claims which are prima facie highly improbable, whose origin is this website and likely this Knowledge article itself, which Shamir originally wrote. The question is whether it is DUE to include these claims. That's not resolved simply because a TOI article has almost word for

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who would be some kind of war hero in Israel, etc, we should expect there to be some evidence or source for this, for it to be DUE to reprint it in an encyclopedia. Simple circular reporting from the Knowledge page, that Shamir originally wrote, and which was sourced to his personal website, is not

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Ok, and so what they quote Shamir for this? That establishes weight. And notability, once again, has literally zero to do with the content of articles. Our article does not say anything those sources do not directly support, namely that Shamir says this about himself. Please stop making up policy,

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that the article not include it. It has weight because reliable sources have given it weight. If you simply self-revert until tomorrow you are still edit-warring. And in doing so you would be removing multiple reliable sources. Please do not continue to try to force in your changes to this article

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unless there is some indication that it not just false, trivia claims made for self-promotion on a personal website. In this case, these paragraphs in the article were originally written by Shamir himself when he was editing here (both with an account in his name and IPs which seem to overlap with

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If people are going to make bald assertions about our policies or the sources that are flatly contradicted by what the policies or the sources say then that should be pointed out. You still have not retracted the claim that Shamir's personal website is a source used for this. That straightforward

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Thus, when talking about pseudoscientific topics, we should not describe these two opposing viewpoints as being equal to each other. While pseudoscience may in some cases be significant to an article, it should not obfuscate the description of the mainstream views of the scientific community. Any

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Again, you are answering arguments nobody has made and are wholly irrelevant. The material is not sourced to Shamir's website, it is sourced to the Times of Israel and to Tablet. DUE weight is determined by whether or not sources consider the material to have weight, and you have now two reliable

3093:

I realize that nobody wants to be seen as "defending" an antisemite or Holocaust denier, but we still have to follow some basic standards here. The line from Dershowitz is accurate, but the context it is used for here is SYNTH, and the op-ed is about an entirely different subject (two academics

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The Socialist Viewpoint piece is quite definitely not an editorial. I can tell you, with absolute authority, that it was written as a letter from a reader who disagreed with the magazine's publication of articles by Shamir (subsequently removed), and was not originally intended for publication.

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We can leave this open longer. So far it seems 5 editors including myself are against inclusion of the claims of Shamir's personal/website (or at least Aquillion says claims need adequate skepticism to be included), and 2 editors including Nabeezy are in favour of inclusion so long as it is not

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They do not source the claims, but rather the fact they were published on his website. Shamir used his website to then write those claims on this Knowledge article originally. Years later, these have been reprinted with the exactly same wording as used in this article, as filler in TOI. This is

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There's no reliable source for the claims, the source is rather mentioning his website again. The website itself was inserted into this article, which is the likely source for the article reporting itself. In other words, it is likely Knowledge now reporting on Knowledge (based on edits to this

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Include ATTRIBUTED as his claim, obviously not in WP:VOICE. The entire 'backstory' is explicitly stated as being highly unreliable. The unreliability of the claims appears to be part of the story and character of the man. Why exclude these elements when everything else about the backstory is

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The material is from Shamir's personal website statements, via this article, where Shamir introduced it. It was reprinted as circular reporting with identical wording, but there is no indication that it is WP:DUE. The fact the claims are highly fringe and backed by nothing contribute to the

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The best sources to use when describing fringe theories, and in determining their notability and prominence, are independent reliable sources. In particular, the relative space that an article devotes to different aspects of a fringe theory should follow from consideration primarily of the

2766:. Our article was indeed using the website directly - and these citations have been replaced by secondary sourcing reporting on the website - attributing these bio details to Shamir, and not in their own voice. Sources preface this attribited reporting with doubt on details (e.g. JPost 1281:, Shamir can be used for statements about his own life. That they arent in any secondary source is reason to attribute it explicitly, but you are removing material that is explicitly allowed by policy and leaving zero information about Shamir's life in a supposed biography of Shamir. 2071:

There appears little or no dispute as to the questionable veracity of the "life history" published on the subject's web page. The question is whether to omit such questionable "facts" or report them in the subjects own voice - while also reporting the "opinions" that these are

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given the weak sourcing and coverage (secondary sources do discuss it, but don't seem to give it much credence, which means it's not a very important part of his biography.) It could possibly be mentioned in the body using secondary sources, but that's a question for

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There's little coverage in Hebrew (though the name makes this difficult). The only source (well - aside from a 1994 piece on Shamir's website in Hebrew) I see that treats this as factual (searching in Hebrew for "Israel Shamir"+Mapam (in two spelling variants)) -

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it), and originate from a website which is not a reliable or verified source. Originally Shamir was editing/writing this article himself and he was making false claims back when he was editing this article (i.e. removing the fact he was a Swedish citizen)

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Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not

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Yes, you have said that same irrelevant nonsense repeatedly. It remains nonsense. The sources here are Times of Israel and Tablet. Not Shamir's website. DUE is shown by the citations to two reliable third party sources. Please actually read

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discussion of whether it is DUE to include them, simply because they were written on his website, and then reprinted (including on here). IF there was some evidence for the claims themselves, they might be somehow notable enough to include.

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Concerns you never addressed and until now you were on record saying that was a reliable source. So its only a reliable source when its used for saying negative things about Shamir? Okay ... What personal attack? Saying that the claim that

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Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable

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I don't know whether the error was Yemini's own, or whether he was misinformed by Shamir; but this does raise serious question marks about the reliability of the article as a source for factual statements about Shamir's activity.

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endorsing a book by Gilad Atzmon), and it doesnt really accurately portray what Shamir wrote. Theres plenty of accurate criticisms to include here, you dont need to include the edge out-of-context things to get the point across.

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being challenged here is sourced to Shamir's personal website. Tablet and the Times of Israel are the sources, and if you would like to challenge their reliability then by all means do that. Would be interesting to watch.

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says flat out as a fact that Shamir was in fact a paratrooper in Israel. The article doesnt even go that far, it only reports what ToI and Tablet report, and it does not use Shamir's website for those claims in any way.

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and that the wp policy perspective has slightly altered on this. The addition of questionable material does not "improve" an article. However, that the material "is" questionable is of relevance. However, articles are a

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As an initial comment, the OP refers to an exchange of posts but does not provide a link/diff for this. Even though it was the preceding discussion, it would have been nice to make this clear. Also, to the statement:

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That seems like something that should be more easily documented in Hebrew. Same for any actual employment by Haaretz. Is there any actual confirmation or denial of either of those facts that anybody can find?

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says exactly the opposite. The sources consider Shamir's claims about his own life relevant to discussing him. It would be helpful if people stopped asserting policy and started quoting it. Here's a quote for

1720:. None of that is in dispute. Both the ToI and Tablet see fit to include that Shamir says this about himself. We are not reporting it as anything other than what Shamir says about himself. Your argument on 3041:

generally treated as secondary sources. While I strongly disagree with you this is an op-ed - I'm not particularly inclined to discuss this further (as I think there are sufficient sources without this).

2224:, as there is no evidence for these claims, as well as reason to doubt they are true, and they are made by a source known for unreliability and self-promotion, according to reliable sources. For example, 1852:

for what our article says (that Shamir says this about himself) have been provided. Multiple ones. And also, the source that youve argued is reliable and not editorial below (Yemini) seems to accept as

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Interviews and/or website quotes are not independent. It is quite curious that while introducing these sources to replace the website you did not introduce what is independent of Shamir in them - e.g.

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Including attacks on a living person based on editorials and removing the response should result in a BLP ban. Claiming that you are doing so with "reliable sources" should result in something wider.

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as a source for Shamir claiming this. When sources discuss Shamir they include that he says this about himself and that there is no independent verification of it. That is exactly what is done here.

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reprint these claims without evidence except that I added it to the article myself, and there was circular reprinting of that with wording which makes it likely it is copied from this very article?

2517:. Tablet is an independent reliable secondary source - however quotes of Shamir within the Tablet interview - are not independent of Shamir. Given that Tablet chose to preface those claims with 2651:, Knowledge should not be used to promote a professional antisemite and genocide denier's farcical (if not fantastical) claims about himself, claims for which no corroborating evidence exists. 429: 2176:). More generally, limited reliance should be placed on anything contained within the subject's web page unless same is independently confirmed (ie at arms length from the subject). Regards, 345: 1350:

Thats why we attribute it to him. The material, beyond being the only biographical detail we have at all in a supposed biography of a living person, is also quoted in secondary sources.

2373:. We should stick to sources that have investigated this themselves. Shamir's personal history is very much a matter of contention and we should avoid repeating possible fringe claims. 2539:

Tablet and ToI are in fact independent of Shamir and by their giving weight to Shamir's claims, as Shamir's claims, necessitates our giving weight to those claims, as claims, here.

2493:. Those are the sources here, not Shamir's website as you continue to portray. Whats it called when somebody says something that is flat out not true? Yeah, not a personal attack. 3024:

I think its an opinion piece because it opens with a personal anecdote. News articles dont generally talk about conversations the author had with a Palestinian friend of theirs.

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Also as an aside, I would indicate that the sources that "report" the questionable veracity of the subjects "life history" are reasonably biased against the subject and fall to

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I removed what was clearly a SPS. There is quite a bit of other content that should be examined carefully and possibly removed - the sourcing in this article is in a sad state.

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Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.

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inserted by an editor (Charles Godwin) who likely could be Shamir himself given the account's editing history, similarity to Shamir's writing style, and shared interest/views

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and widespread non Op-ed coverage - for example, in news articles in the Guardian about Wikileaks. This is also DUE as it is almost the only coverage of him in WP:RS.

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While some such use can be justified in most biographies if uncontroversial, in this case this may be controversial - particularly when we have this quote reported -

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to do with the content of articles. Not. One. Thing. And again, if you continue edit-warring it out then that is another problem beyond the poor content argument.

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to report unverified claims from a personal website, and for which no evidence has been presented? If Shamir e.g. worked for the BBC, was a paratrooper in the

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Yall are not allowed to turn this into the case against Israel Shamir. I am going to be restoring several parts of this and removing several parts of this.

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And actually Icewhiz, I agree with removing his self-published views on other topics here (so long as you arent leaving an accusation unanswered as you are

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What do you mean they do not source the claims? They say they are getting it from his website. They report it as the claims of his website. The claims are

1414:). But for material about himself he can be included. Obviously so as both the TOI and Tablet report his claims. Rendering moot that other claim about RS. 501: 285: 67:) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or 1607:

your edit is both unsupported by any policy (two reliable sources are cited reporting on Shamir's claims) and a violation of the 1RR. Please self-revert.

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questionable? Sources have reported these questionable claims and seemingly devoted more copy to them than to any 'reliable' accounts of his backstory.

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should give us pause - and affect our presentation of this (if we are to present this at all - Shamir is notable for his writings - not his early life).

2369:- this is sourced to Shamir's website and secondary sources that say Shamir's website says this. As such, this is not independent of Shamir, and fails 2906:

The Yemini piece is written in the first person. Sorry for mixing up the publication on that. Im not removing Ball in the Daily Beast, I am removing

2047:

Only two sources have been mentioned to that point and only one hyperlinked. As a participant in the discussion, it is easy to "assume" such things.

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weight from the sources to include it here. You are making up policy here. What it actually says supports the retention of the material. Please read

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RFC: should we include claims by Shamir that he was a paratrooper and worked for the BBC and Haaretz which originate from his personal website

1771:- quotes from the website are not independent of Shamir, particularly when the source merely quotes and does not analyze the claim (e.g. TOI). 3184: 2724: 2195:

Should we include claims by Shamir that he was a paratrooper and worked for the BBC and Haaretz, which originate from his personal website?

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that Shamir's claims regarding his biography are due, and we should prefer sources analyzing the claims and/or reporting in their own voice.

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through revert-warring, it is very expressly forbidden by policy and beyond that your argument simply does not stand up to any scrutiny.

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still applies to this and every other biography of a living person we have. I plan on removing the following, and what is cited to it:

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Please strike your personal attack. RolandR raised serious doubts in regards to the rather dated Maariv piece. ToI is reporting on

893:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to 3174: 670:, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic 1454:

All material here needs a source other than Shamir - if have TOI or Tablet reporting something - then use them as a source. Per

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counter-argued that the text was likely directly from Shamir's website, and therefore wouldn't constitute circular reporting.

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and Tablet. Reliable secondary sources cover Shamir's claims about himself. That makes it DUE weight to include those claims

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somehow doesnt apply to you? Im taking this to BLPN and not AE just because Id like to maintain my sunny disposition today.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2768:"Shamir has a shadowy past and present that is hard to pin down or confirm. His official biography on his website says..." 2483: 2347:"Shamir has a shadowy past and present that is hard to pin down or confirm. His official biography on his website says..." 2267:

has discussed some of these claims, although in an article which was concluding that Shamir has invented his biography.)

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the very obvious fact that Shamir's website does in fact say this about Shamir. You do not get to decide that because you

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expressed in a wiki voice - particularly as the objective basis for forming the opinion is not explicit in the articles.

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Uh I just gave you two reliable sources, and notability has nothing to do with the content within articles. And, again,

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independent sources. Points that are not discussed in independent sources should not be given any space in articles.

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If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

988:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join 795:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join 3060: 1971:

as it does not support what you repeatedly claim it does. Everything else you have written is entirely irrelevant.

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simply circular reporting whose origin is from Shamir himself, and not evidence that the claims are reliable or

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sourced to Shamir's website and claiming that they are is designed to distort the record for other commenters.

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use here is not acceptable. We cover such subjects as they are covered by independent reliable sources - not

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Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

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article made by Shamir adding them to Knowledge himself). There is a policy against this, as it seems to be

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https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Israel_Shamir&type=revision&diff=14921315&oldid=14921028

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secondary sources cited for the material in the article. Please stop misrepresenting the situation here.

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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the

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I note that Yemini also claims that Shamir was a candidate for the Knesset for the Moked party in 1974 (

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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The material is derived (directly or indirectly) from the subject's web page. The web page "is"

2045:

That Shamir claims to have been a paratrooper is reliably sourced to multiple secondary sources.

2764:"this is sourced to Shamir's website and secondary sources that say Shamir's website says this" 2226:

when Shamir was editing this article himself, he was removing the fact he was a Swedish citizen

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procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the

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This viewpoint has been published by reliable sources (multiple ones) and as such there is

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concerns as well (as this is merely attributed reporting on what Shamir says if himself).

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factually untrue claim is still being used to influence people commenting on the topic.

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and would have facilitated discussion if a translation of the source had been provided.

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exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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in an op-ed calling a living person an anti-semite but remove his response? You think

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You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

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The question is simply whether we should include these claims. To what extent is it

1160:. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions. 3069: 3042: 3011: 2937: 2893: 2771: 2728: 2564: 2525: 2445: 2374: 2349: 2252: 2209:

I argued that the claims were sourced to Shamir's own website, and were originally

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The best sources to use when describing fringe theories, and in determining their

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And we have academic sources detailing the issues with the website. Please read

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Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran

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All this (his promotion of antisemitism and Holocaust denial) is described in

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Comment is Free piece. Brown is writing in the comment is free section, and

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Manfred Ropschitz in IndyMedia - open publishing site, not a reliable source

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related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.

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Beyond that, Shamir's claims have been reported in secondary sites such as

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from (likely) Shamir's original edits, as the wording is almost the same

1893:. I have zero interest in what Shamir did or did not do to this article, 1242: 2215:

Israel Shamir continued to edit war to keep this content in the article

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actually says. Here, Ill quote in the hopes this gets the point across:

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the material identified in the RfC. This is reinforced by policy (per

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Are you seriously arguing that the Times of Israel or Tabler are not

985: 423: 180: 3004:" יאיר צבן, לשעבר שר ויו"ר מפ"ם, זוכר שהוא היה בתפקיד זמן קצר בלבד." 2727:- there is no need to respond to each !vote here with walls of text. 901:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the 564:

Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People

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procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the

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ToI and Tablet quote Shamir for this. Tablet prefaces this with

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sourced to Shamir's website. The only sources used for this are

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Ill also add, in addition to the Times of Israel and Tablet the

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sourced to Shamir's website remains a straightforward untruth.

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does not delve into the subjects "life history" in detail. The

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applies as well, and would preclude using material by Shamir.

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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially

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Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace

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does not attribute the source for the "life history" given.

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explicitly shows the claim about RS being irrelevant here.

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Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the

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The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

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Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the

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not reliable (obviously), and no, that they quote Shamir

38:. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If 2089:

neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim ...

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Andrew Brown in The Guardian - comment is free section

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to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for

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Arguements made herein have cited and centred around

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James Ball in The Guardian - comment is free section

2471:???? Have you even read that section? Here, Ill help 2270:

I counter-argued that this seems to be likely to be

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The following discussion is an archived record of a

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https://en.wikipedia.org/Template:Circular_reporting

1462:- self sources can't be used in this particular bio. 984:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 791:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 346:

Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005

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No further edits should be made to this discussion.

430:Articles needing translation from Hebrew Knowledge 2916:subject to the newspaper's full editorial control 2858:Mikhail Agursky in Jerusalem Post - opinion piece 2463:is dishonest? It is dishonest, as the claims are 2951:Sorry, opinion from a non-reliable source then. 2855:Ben Dror-Yemini in Makor Rishon - opinion piece 1785:The cites are not to his website. Please read 2161:. Listing such "in detail" is not a summary. 2037:A summary of the conclusions reached follows. 1253:This page has archives. Sections older than 34:while commenting or presenting evidence, and 8: 517:Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries 2220:I argued that inclusion of this content is 1103: 930: 842: 737: 616: 447:Israel articles missing geocoordinate data 331:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration 292:Unknown-importance Israel-related articles 272:Here are some tasks awaiting attention: 226: 125: 3145:Low-importance Palestine-related articles 532:Knowledge requested photographs in Israel 1133:With respect to the WP:1RR restriction: 2276:as the text in the version of Knowledge 2239:argued that inclusion of the claims is 932: 844: 739: 618: 127: 97: 3130:Low-importance Israel-related articles 3056: 3007: 3003: 2767: 2763: 2556: 2518: 2510: 2489:Hello? Times of Israel and Tablet are 2433: 2346: 2278:at the time the article was written. 2092: 2088: 2084: 2079:. There is no dispute as to this. Per 2044: 1323: 1263:when more than 4 sections are present. 2391:Please dont be dishonest here, it is 686:, where you can add your name to the 7: 2725:Knowledge:Don't bludgeon the process 1631:. There is even a template for this 1051:Warning: active arbitration remedies 978:This article is within the scope of 887:This article is within the scope of 785:This article is within the scope of 664:This article is within the scope of 173:This article is within the scope of 3120:Biography articles of living people 2461:this is sourced to Shamir's website 1076:, provided they are not disruptive) 361:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel 116:It is of interest to the following 3140:C-Class Palestine-related articles 2164:To conclude, there is a consensus 1371:Considering it's not cited to any 682:on Knowledge. Join us by visiting 502:Knowledge requested maps in Israel 286:Unassessed Israel-related articles 14: 2598:this does not establish weight.-- 2559:It is hard to pin down the truth, 2513:It is hard to pin down the truth, 2436:It is hard to pin down the truth, 1257:may be automatically archived by 481:Israel articles needing attention 464:Israel articles needing infoboxes 2830:The discussion above is closed. 2521:It is hard to pin down the truth 2243:due to their being reprinted by 2083:, such a source may be used for 2065:As an aside, it would have been 1186: 1043: 965: 955: 934: 874: 864: 846: 772: 762: 741: 690:where you can contribute to the 651: 641: 620: 307:Cleanup listing for this project 263: 160: 150: 129: 98: 57:This article must adhere to the 19: 3160:Low-importance Judaism articles 3125:C-Class Israel-related articles 2867:Socialist Viewpoint - editorial 2816:written in the editorial voice. 1857:that Shamir was a paratrooper. 1018:This article has been rated as 911:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography 825:This article has been rated as 720:This article has been rated as 700:Knowledge:WikiProject Palestine 497:Module:Location map/data/Israel 213:This article has been rated as 3180:Low-importance Sweden articles 3170:WikiProject Biography articles 3150:WikiProject Palestine articles 2561:but Shamir said he was born... 2515:but Shamir said he was born... 2438:but Shamir said he was born... 2095:. This is similarly stated at 914:Template:WikiProject Biography 703:Template:WikiProject Palestine 444:Add geographic coordinates to 358:Participate in discussions at 1: 2914:requires News Blogs that are 2826:23:31, 9 September 2019 (UTC) 2723:On a procedural note, please 1099:contentious topics procedures 992:and see a list of open tasks. 805:Knowledge:WikiProject Judaism 799:and see a list of open tasks. 187:and see a list of open tasks. 60:biographies of living persons 3185:All WikiProject Sweden pages 3105:22:14, 21 January 2022 (UTC) 2491:independent reliable sources 2484:independent reliable sources 2085:information about themselves 1850:Independent reliable sources 1814:independent reliable sources 1810:independent reliable sources 998:Knowledge:WikiProject Sweden 899:contribute to the discussion 808:Template:WikiProject Judaism 529:Add pictures to articles in 193:Knowledge:WikiProject Israel 36:do not make personal attacks 3135:WikiProject Israel articles 2712:16:43, 22 August 2019 (UTC) 2686:09:19, 14 August 2019 (UTC) 2563:- which prefaces the claim. 2213:, before an account called 2186:11:42, 4 October 2019 (UTC) 2140:I would; however, point to 1801:yourself. See where it says 1001:Template:WikiProject Sweden 416:Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu 196:Template:WikiProject Israel 72:must be removed immediately 3201: 3165:C-Class biography articles 3061:Israel Democracy Institute 2762:Read what I wrote again - 2661:16:17, 1 August 2019 (UTC) 2157:of the sources written in 1068:You must be logged-in and 1024:project's importance scale 831:project's importance scale 726:project's importance scale 706:Palestine-related articles 499:. Add maps to articles in 380:Diamond industry in Israel 219:project's importance scale 3079:10:26, 18 July 2019 (UTC) 3051:06:22, 18 July 2019 (UTC) 3035:06:17, 18 July 2019 (UTC) 3020:06:08, 18 July 2019 (UTC) 2991:03:41, 18 July 2019 (UTC) 2962:18:09, 18 July 2019 (UTC) 2947:09:45, 18 July 2019 (UTC) 2929:21:02, 17 July 2019 (UTC) 2902:20:37, 17 July 2019 (UTC) 2881:20:19, 17 July 2019 (UTC) 2798:09:20, 28 July 2019 (UTC) 2780:02:05, 28 July 2019 (UTC) 2757:21:36, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2737:21:13, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2639:20:55, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2608:18:24, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2573:02:11, 28 July 2019 (UTC) 2550:16:38, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2534:15:53, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2504:15:27, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2454:14:53, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2423:14:28, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2383:05:06, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2358:01:57, 28 July 2019 (UTC) 2340:21:38, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2318:03:15, 27 July 2019 (UTC) 2299:21:08, 26 July 2019 (UTC) 2205:21:08, 26 July 2019 (UTC) 2087:but the material must be 1982:14:23, 26 July 2019 (UTC) 1962:04:08, 26 July 2019 (UTC) 1946:16:20, 25 July 2019 (UTC) 1925:12:15, 24 July 2019 (UTC) 1909:00:05, 23 July 2019 (UTC) 1884:17:55, 20 July 2019 (UTC) 1868:14:21, 19 July 2019 (UTC) 1843:11:33, 19 July 2019 (UTC) 1827:05:41, 19 July 2019 (UTC) 1781:04:00, 19 July 2019 (UTC) 1758:03:29, 19 July 2019 (UTC) 1712:03:23, 19 July 2019 (UTC) 1692:02:44, 19 July 2019 (UTC) 1664:01:28, 19 July 2019 (UTC) 1644:sufficient for inclusion. 1618:18:07, 18 July 2019 (UTC) 1592:20:20, 17 July 2019 (UTC) 1577:19:56, 17 July 2019 (UTC) 1554:19:44, 17 July 2019 (UTC) 1528:18:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC) 1510:17:50, 16 July 2019 (UTC) 1495:16:55, 16 July 2019 (UTC) 1472:16:23, 16 July 2019 (UTC) 1450:15:09, 16 July 2019 (UTC) 1425:15:04, 16 July 2019 (UTC) 1405:14:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC) 1385:11:50, 16 July 2019 (UTC) 1361:14:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC) 1346:07:22, 16 July 2019 (UTC) 1317:21:00, 15 July 2019 (UTC) 1292:20:57, 15 July 2019 (UTC) 1101:before editing this page. 1017: 950: 859: 824: 757: 719: 636: 225: 212: 145: 124: 3155:C-Class Judaism articles 2832:Please do not modify it. 2031:Please do not modify it. 1158:normal editorial process 1095:normal editorial process 439:Geographical coordinates 3175:C-Class Sweden articles 2121:, which is a matter of 1724:seemingly ignores what 1718:actually on his website 1164:Arbitration enforcement 408:Public Defence (Israel) 309:is available. See also 199:Israel-related articles 2626: 2488: 1807: 1734: 1260:Lowercase sigmabot III 1154:standards of behaviour 1091:standards of behaviour 106:This article is rated 2621: 2472: 2430:what the website says 1802: 1729: 1060:Arab–Israeli conflict 890:WikiProject Biography 667:WikiProject Palestine 230:Project Israel To Do: 2653:TheTimesAreAChanging 2345:JPOST prefaced with 2245:Times of Israel here 1641:Paratroopers Brigade 1150:purpose of Knowledge 1144:After being warned, 1087:purpose of Knowledge 1074:making edit requests 315:the tool's wiki page 311:the list by category 2839:problematic sources 2718:Extended discussion 2409:you say is reliable 2281:On the other hand, 2231:On the other hand, 2026:request for comment 1432:The content is not 1332:(4). Furthermore - 1300:The Times of Israel 1108:Further information 788:WikiProject Judaism 579:Translate to Hebrew 2811:September comments 2272:circular reporting 1629:Circular reporting 1146:contentious topics 1124: 1122:make edit requests 1070:extended-confirmed 1056:contentious topics 1052: 981:WikiProject Sweden 917:biography articles 680:State of Palestine 676:Palestinian people 495:See discussion at 176:WikiProject Israel 112:content assessment 3107: 3037: 2993: 2964: 2931: 2883: 2800: 2759: 2691:Exclude from lead 2674: 2641: 2552: 2506: 2425: 2342: 2320: 2263:. (In addition, 2070: 1984: 1948: 1911: 1870: 1829: 1760: 1743:, notability has 1694: 1678:dislike something 1620: 1594: 1556: 1497: 1427: 1407: 1363: 1319: 1294: 1267: 1266: 1232: 1231: 1178: 1177: 1174: 1173: 1119: 1050: 1038: 1037: 1034: 1033: 1030: 1029: 929: 928: 925: 924: 841: 840: 837: 836: 736: 735: 732: 731: 615: 614: 611: 610: 607: 606: 603: 602: 461:Add infoboxes to 424:Pre-Modern Aliyah 396:Sephardic Haredim 92: 91: 50: 49: 3192: 3100: 3095: 3077: 3030: 3025: 2986: 2981: 2957: 2952: 2945: 2924: 2919: 2876: 2871: 2793: 2788: 2752: 2747: 2668: 2634: 2629: 2545: 2540: 2499: 2494: 2418: 2413: 2335: 2330: 2313: 2308: 2286: 2236: 2146:WP:NOTEVERYTHING 2064: 2033: 1977: 1972: 1941: 1936: 1904: 1899: 1863: 1858: 1822: 1817: 1753: 1748: 1687: 1682: 1674: 1613: 1608: 1606: 1587: 1582: 1549: 1544: 1490: 1485: 1420: 1415: 1400: 1395: 1356: 1351: 1312: 1307: 1287: 1282: 1262: 1246: 1201: 1200: 1190: 1182: 1104: 1047: 1040: 1006: 1005: 1002: 999: 996: 975: 970: 969: 968: 959: 952: 951: 946: 938: 931: 919: 918: 915: 912: 909: 895:join the project 884: 882:Biography portal 879: 878: 877: 868: 861: 860: 850: 843: 813: 812: 811:Judaism articles 809: 806: 803: 782: 777: 776: 775: 766: 759: 758: 753: 745: 738: 708: 707: 704: 701: 698: 684:the project page 661: 659:Palestine portal 656: 655: 654: 645: 638: 637: 632: 624: 617: 412:Prisoner of Zion 353:Deletion sorting 267: 260: 259: 227: 201: 200: 197: 194: 191: 170: 165: 164: 163: 154: 147: 146: 141: 133: 126: 109: 103: 102: 94: 80:this noticeboard 52: 42:is not reached, 23: 22: 16: 3200: 3199: 3195: 3194: 3193: 3191: 3190: 3189: 3110: 3109: 3098: 3091: 3089:Alan Dershowitz 3068: 3028: 3000:Ben-Dror Yemini 2984: 2977: 2975:Mapam spokesman 2955: 2936: 2922: 2874: 2841: 2836: 2835: 2813: 2791: 2750: 2720: 2671:Summoned by bot 2632: 2543: 2497: 2416: 2401:Times of Israel 2397:Tablet Magazine 2333: 2311: 2284: 2249:Times of Israel 2234: 2192: 2077:WP:QUESTIONABLE 2061:final reference 2029: 2019: 1975: 1939: 1902: 1861: 1820: 1751: 1685: 1668: 1611: 1600: 1585: 1547: 1488: 1478:Stephen Pollard 1476:So you include 1418: 1398: 1354: 1310: 1285: 1272: 1258: 1247: 1241: 1195: 1170: 1152:, any expected 1109: 1089:, any expected 1082: 1004:Sweden articles 1003: 1000: 997: 994: 993: 971: 966: 964: 944: 916: 913: 910: 907: 906: 880: 875: 873: 810: 807: 804: 801: 800: 778: 773: 771: 751: 705: 702: 699: 696: 695: 688:list of members 657: 652: 650: 630: 599: 584:David Bar-Hayim 392:Rami Kleinstein 376:Ayala Procaccia 328:Participate in 258: 198: 195: 192: 189: 188: 166: 161: 159: 139: 110:on Knowledge's 107: 44:other solutions 12: 11: 5: 3198: 3196: 3188: 3187: 3182: 3177: 3172: 3167: 3162: 3157: 3152: 3147: 3142: 3137: 3132: 3127: 3122: 3112: 3111: 3090: 3087: 3086: 3085: 3084: 3083: 3082: 3081: 3053: 2976: 2973: 2972: 2971: 2970: 2969: 2968: 2967: 2966: 2965: 2869: 2868: 2865: 2862: 2859: 2856: 2853: 2840: 2837: 2829: 2812: 2809: 2808: 2807: 2806: 2805: 2804: 2803: 2802: 2801: 2740: 2739: 2719: 2716: 2715: 2714: 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