Talk:Israeli occupation of the West Bank/Archive 4

3198:. Most of Israel's cities would be in range of even primitive rockets. It has been proposed that, as part of a final status arrangement, a UN peacekeeping force would be stationed in the West Bank. Israel has been critical of the performance of past UN lead forces deployed near its borders. As part of President Obama's peace initiative, General John Allen was tasked with developing a comprehensive security arrangement. Some elements of his plan are still classified. The plan would have included the deployment of a joint force in the Jordan Valley for 10 to 15 years. The force would be lead by American officers and would have consisted of Israeli, Jordanian and Palestinian forces. Prime minister Netanyahu and defense minister Ya’alon opposed the terms suggested by the Americans. Netanyahu reportedly sought a 40-year term. Some within the defense establishment reportedly requested assurances that Israeli troops would not be required to take orders from Palestinian or Jordanian officers. The Israelis have also demanded that any future Palestinian state be demilitarized. A position which the Palestinians have rejected. 2412:(Begin didn't really do anything - the Jerusalem law was declarative - legally (internally in Israel - it did generate an international backlash) - it did not change the situation created in 67 (e.g. the High Court has ruled that EJ resident-ship rights hark back to 67, not 80). While Eshkol did set up a military administration and began with settlements - I wouldn't (nor would most scholars per my reading) view this as a strategic long-term decision - the decision was not to withdraw, and the consequence was a military administration - but the duration was indefinite (i.e. a short duration was not ruled out) - settlements in this period were very much a continuation of prior Israeli settlement policy along the borders and was tactical/security driven (e.g. in the Jordan Valley)) ... The only inflection points I think need stressing in the West Bank sense are Oslo (1993) and the regime following the Second Intifada (the new post-Oslo status-quo - which itself developed (and arguably is developing) over a decade since 2000) - other than that most of the rest were gradual decisions, not sharp inflection points. 3186:, which would have annexed a strip along the Jordan River valley and excluded areas closer to the pre-1967 border, which had a high density of Palestinians. The plan was base on Allon's interpretation of Israel's security needs and would have annexing areas he determined to be essential to Israel's security. The Allon plan evolved over a period of time to include more territory. The final draft dating from 1970 would have annexed about half of the West Bank. Moshe Dayan proposed a peace treaty with Jordan on September 3, 1967. Under the terms Jordan would exercise civil administration in the West Bank while Israel would maintain military control. The Jordanians rejected the offer. On October 11, 1967 Dayan further elaborated on his plan to create four military bases in the West Bank hills. Each would have an accompanying civilian urban center. 3003:, which would have annexed a strip along the Jordan River valley and excluded areas closer to the pre-1967 border, which had a high density of Palestinians. The plan was base on Allon's interpretation of Israel's security needs and would have annexing areas he determined to be essential to Israel's security. The Allon plan evolved over a period of time to include more territory. The final draft dating from 1970 would have annexed about half of the West Bank. Moshe Dayan proposed a peace treaty with Jordan on September 3, 1967. Under the terms Jordan would exercise civil administration in the West Bank while Israel would maintain military control. The Jordanians rejected the offer. On October 11, 1967 Dayan further elaborated on his plan to create four military bases in the West Bank hills. Each would have an accompanying civilian urban center. 3190:

defense forces switched to an offensive-defensive doctrine the new doctrine called for a preemptive first strike. Followed by a switch to the defensive. Israel's limited strategic depth combined with the requirement to fight a multi-front war necessitated a strategy that relied almost exclusively on offensive tactics. Following the gain of territory the doctrine called for a switch to defense. Following the 1967 war, the doctrine changed to one of defense. Instead of initiating a first strike Israeli planners were now willing to absorb an enemy attack. The 1973 war illustrated the folly of this approach and Israel adopted a balanced approach. It has been argued that superior military technology coupled with borders which are acceptable to Israel's neighbors are superior to hostile fixed territorial defense.

1917:, I agree with you on both counts: necessary and difficult. Typically, we'd write a section in the body of the article first, and only then summarize that in the lead. In this case, I feel like sections need to be written on these two points (security concerns, and the United States), which could then be summarized into two sentences for the lead. Wrt #1, the article should describe how things went from (b) to (a) (and when and why), which I think is key to really understanding the occupation. Wrt #2, it's not as major of a point, but it's worth addressing in the article how much (or little) influence the US has had over the occupation over the last 50 years (and whether it's changed over time, and I'd say the same for other countries like Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iran). 661:

an iron wall. The problem with the Israel article is not its length, but how much of the history of modern Israel it astutely ignores (check out the way the reality of 20% of the population is covered, the 20% that was under military rule from 1949-1966). All I see here is a desire to rid this article of facts, whose relevance to the topic is not seriously contested. The objection is, there are too many facts here, which is rather unique. I've given my viewpoint: the sensible way to handle 'concerns about length' by retaining all of those sections and the essential details in place, and slowly shifting some Frank nitty gritty to other articles. I don't see any merit, other than ethnonationalist dislike, in any of the other proposals or practices in evidence here.

2341:"Motivation for the Declaration", with subsections on "Academic interpretations" and "Prime Minister Lloyd-George's explanations". After much iteration, the article reached WP:FA with a different structure: one section called "Approvals" and one called "Historiography". In other words, rather than getting lost in an interminable debate between academics and political commentators, we focused on a practical description of how approvals were achieved for the key decisions made along the way (the British government decision to negotiate with the Zionists, the British government decision to release some form of public statement, the approval of the Allies and the approval of the cabinet), and then an overview of what later scholars have said on the subject. 291:

the early days of the Mandate. The creation, rapid expansion of said settlements. The creation and general indifference to outposts. The entire section on settler violence. The material on crowd control, the disparity in sentencing. The material on disparity in arms. The sections on technologies of control. The section on population transfers and deportations. Material on torture. Most of the section on the effect on children. The material on the road system. Much of the material on agriculture. Its use as a waste zone. The entirety of the critical judgments. You have any justification for the uniform removal of material that does not show Israel to be the beacon of justice and humanity that we all know it to be?

484:, removing almost half of the article without any verifiable editorial principle signposts not a concern to handle the outstanding issue, but simply take the axe at length and reduce in Solomonic fashion and the only rationale I can see is that of provocation, since it was bound to be reverted. Since no one disputes the high source quaiity used copiousLy here for every detail, erasing it rather than finding an appropriate wiki article where it might be shifted in order to conserve the information, looks like sheer ideologically motivated distaste or censorship. The only reasonable option is shifting, eventually, to related articles, which keeping a paraphrase of the content here, not excision. 1754:

export in the 1980s of these techniques to places like Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Sri Lanka", where he states "Israeli aspirations to play the role as "top proxy" for the United States, led to the export in the 1980s of these techniques to places like Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Sri Lanka" and where he states "Israel exported these techniques to places like Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Sri Lanka to put down peasant revolts against land expropriation." - if he did not make statements to those ends, then it is synth and has no place here unless another source that does explicitly state that can be found. --

3564:

for example, that if 106 former generals of the IDF declare the 'security concern' warranting in popular opinion the continuation of the occupation is a myth or illusion, we shouldn't mention that. We should rather showcase the hasbara handout sheet version. Knowledge is not a forum for government POVs, of whatever derivation: it summarizes the best available scholarship on whatever topic is being written about. That I, for one, choose to ignore the nationalist posturing of politicians and interested parties is not a flaunting of a POV. It is simply defending the principle that one must edit to a topic without fear or favour.

3556:

larger literature, appeared to thread through your version, and asked for a discussion of the merits. All we had was total silence ('take it or leave it'). After two days, I wrote an alternative which, yes, in my view, gave a more comprehensive overview, and then I tweaked a dozen sentences making further improvements unrelated to your addition, while responding to an editor's red-linked observations of sourcing oversights in the version I had provided. You examined nothing of this, refused to discriminate between the security passage and the other edits, and simply wiped everything I'd done, again without a word of discussion.

179:. Alot of what I cut out were examples that where meant to be illustrative but cluttered the article up with weeds. And repetitions (and I believe I left a few repetitions in - some sections still are repetitive of others - e.g. land ownership and settlements). And yes - POV assertions or random opinions. I focused on the newly created article on hand - which should be a manageable size - the body was at 168K chars, the notes at 55K chars, and the lede another 5K. There simply is no policy basis to justify such bloat - it is unreadable and furthermore not conducive to editorial agreement on content (as it was unwieldy to edit). 1391:

1984, Israeli counterinsurgency expertise developed in repressing the uprisings in both the West Bank and Gaza, together with an aspiration to play the role as "top proxy" for the United States, led to the export in the 1980s of these techniques to places like Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Sri Lanka to put down peasant revolts against land expropriation." If I have the correct book (see in this talk page "Imprecise References" for more detail on this issue) then this is a synthesis of ideas presented in the book, with some outright OR thrown in and a POV bias added.

150:

articles for everything, or do any new ones need to be created? FWIW, I think 50k is too little for an article of this scope (longest occupation ever, one of the dominant conflicts of the 20th/21st centuries), and perhaps it's appropriate to IAR somewhat and allow it to go over 50. Now, the previous length was way too far to the other extreme, but it strikes me as a reasonable length the way it is now, so FWIW I'm not bothered if it were to stay at 75k. (Still, that means more condensing to allow room for new sections, etc.)

1296:"Jordanian occupation of the East Bank" this was used as a comparison to the current article title. The reason I used it was that the country Jordan currently occupies the east bank, but that before the country was created, this area was planned to become part of Israel. This is not really necessary to make this article balanced however as it would be outside the scope. But my current point is that to explain all the who occupies what when and why is getting to big to include. 1566:, no, sorry, that makes zero sense. The publisher of this photo is saying this is what the photo depicts. Even if it werent B'tselem, even if it were just on Flickr, the policy would allow us to take that description in good faith. However, it isnt on Flickr, this is from B'tselem. B'tselem has routinely been found to be a reliable source at RSN. Including for the fact that this specific demolition left a population of 10 adults and 15 minors homeless. 1235:'s suggestion, I have stayed rejecting the nomination over this issue for two weeks, in the hope that editors can work on the article during that time and reach consensus that it is NPOV. To that end, I hope editors who have expressed an opinion on the matter but may not have seen the DYK nomination will make a good-faith effort toward resolving the dispute. In particular, editors who have expressed an opinion on the issue in the past but not lately ( 31: 2558:

shifting of material text containing them to sub or sister articles. But I can see no sound policy objection to them. Indeed, articles would be better if this were standard practice. It saves editors all round the trouble of verifying what, unquoted, they might be tempted to question. etc. At the same time, most readers are not going to read them (and most readers are not likely to read this page anyway), given contemporary attention spans.

3068:

Bank-in-Israeli-security-thinking, focus, comprehensive but succinct, whereas what we have is generic, ignores or fails to clarify numerous congruent key issues, and stays silent about the large number of military men and politicians who have dismissed the occupation as (a) aa threat to Israel (b) a pointless military burden and (c) a waste of national resources on settlements that can, in good part, be withdrawn in exchange for peace.

2908:). I have two options in applying my periodic "fixes" to this article. (1) I can run my script on the article as it stands – quickly and easily cleaning up the citation mess, but implicitly accepting the addition of the new (and in my opinion, not very helpful) section; OR (2) delete the new section, then apply my fixes. My own view is that it would be better to delete the section, and instead allow a new section to emerge per 2755:

one would be required to cite a dozen scholars by name. 'It has been argued' could be taken, as you take it, to imply one person, but the notes should have indicated several authors have variously argued for this viewpoint. I have, just to be clearer, added also Hajjar's influential 2006 paper and Weizman, whose book we already used. But this could have been avoided if the original indicated sources had been read beforehand.

3178:

this determination. Immediately after the 1967 war then, U.S. Secretary of Defense McNamara commissioned a secret study of Israel's minimum defensible borders. Based purely on military considerations ignoring political ones. The borders which General Earle G. Wheeler, then chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff drew, would have annexed most of the West Bank to Israel, excluding the area near the Jordan river valley.

2505:

absolutely essential? The current 76 footnotes are excessive - however if I take an axe to them, I probably won't leave in the bits you think are most important) - I might want to chip in and cut-down the article a bit after you are done. Not that things can't be done in parallel - but this article is complex enough that dealing with one issue at a time in the article is probably a good idea. I hope the religious/national

3021:, which would have annexed a strip along the Jordan River valley and excluded areas closer to the pre-1967 border, which had a high density of Palestinians. Moshe Dayan proposed a plan which Gershom Gorenberg likens to a "photo negative of Allon's." The Allon plan evolved over a period of time to include more territory. The final draft dating from 1970 would have annexed about half of the West Bank. 854:

to add blobs of useless material we have abundantly in other pages or (b) ask that several new topics, each requiring 10,000 bytes at least, be added, as the weight reduction was underway. This halted any further attempts by myself, for one, to continue the process of size reduction, because those concerns looked like pretexts based on double-standards -reduce an article on Palestinian content per

2061:

reference work I suggest you spend your time on Lulu.com or Createspace instead of Knowledge. Endnotes are perfectly acceptable in encyclopedia articles. Your personal view on it being overused is just that, personal, and in any case wholly immaterial to questions of readable prose size. You neglected to answer my question though. Ill repeat it for ease. In this very talk page you wrote that

2989:, is immaterial to what Israeli strategists thought, since their calculation was implicitly dismissed by top-ranking Israeli military men like Dayan and Allon himself, and therefore the accompanying phrase 'Israelis were not alone in this determination' hypostasizes as a consensual Israeli view about military necessity something that didn't exist at the time in Israel. 246:, which is an editing guideline (as well as the restored content containing numerous other problems - I do hope you read what you reverted back in, as you are supposed to). Please provide a policy based rationale for this rather severe flounting of TOOLONG with your blanket revert. Breaking editing guidelines with a false "undiscussed" edit rationale is not acceptable. 1024:

Israel), which is accessible here and has a total length of 35 pages. The issue is that the referenced pages are stated to occur between page 58 and 71, which can probably be explained by the use of different editions or even a different book, but we cannot determine this from the current state of the references. Can the authors expand on these? --

3516:. As I have repeatedly stated, I am not opposed to a security concern section, though I thought 32 mentions of this indicated I had, as main drafter, anticipated that. I have written an alternative text which strives for balance and as succinctly as possible an overview of the phases, different schools of thought, of security worries since 1967. 863:

excision without care to preserve factual details based on excellent sourcing are just that, nationalistic exercises in censorship. There is no other way, contextually, to read such attempts to siphon facts down the memory hole, out of sight out of mind. To properly do what was requested requires patience and care, not provocative edit-warring.

3560:

job is working out compromises). In response, one sees attempts either to handle the former by blanket gutting of the page or, with the latter now, blind reverting of whatever, even the most harmless and nugatory cleanups, I happen to undertake. And, in addition, you now only deign to justify this by a hostile attack on my good faith.

339:

familiarity with or competence in encyclopedic writing). Personal confession. I have been commissioned to write for a prestigious encyclopedia, by an editor who disagreed with my conclusions, but recognized my methodological and technical competence, and trusted me to give a neutral overview of a topic we looked at differently.

1933:

précises were knocked out by edit conflicts with material that, somewhat rushed, I failed to save etc., (aside from time-consuming personal engagements). I'll try to resume on Friday, hoping the atmosphere here is amenable to the overhaul asked of me, which requires me to concentrate exclusively on the text as it stands.

1653:

time I have consists, as requested,in overhauling the article by a general précis near the 100kb goal, and I haven't got to that section yet. I bow in these things to Zero, and, If in the meantime, if he has the time, would appreciate his judgement, and will adjust according to that advice if there is some flaw detected.

2306:

absorption, and any attempt to formulate one option defining Israel's basic territorial security invariable is held hostage by claimants who remain dissatisfied with its implications). I would suggest that whoever takes on this epic task on defining Israel's security reasoning re the West Bank clarify that so far

1526:

rendering homeless the entire population of 10 adults and 15 minors", of which only the first part is identification of content and thus covered by the policy. Also, destroy is a somewhat loaded word - demolish would be more neutral. In line with this, I would like to propose that the description is altered to:

2950:

primary objection made of the original article was length -too much detailed coverage- and by that criterion, this fails on two counts: (I) it contains details of the kind I have been excising in other sections; (2) it consistently ignores much of what sources state contextually for the bits cited (e.g.)

2949:

section we can agree might be useful? (b) Does Jonney think this covers all angles, (it doesn't cover much of many of Onceinawhile's outline, so one would expect that it could easily, if Once's suggestions are applied on Jonney's model, easily arrive at 20kB) or is this a stub to be built on? (c) The

2884:

is a message telling me, just as I was preparing to cut back more material, that my effort at compromise on the matter of length is pointless. I say that because Jonney's sketch only covers a very small part of 'security' issues historically, and if this is typical, then we are going to go to 20kB on

2267:

It seems to pretty much cover the main points of the topic as far as I can tell. The only thing I'd have to add is that the text would have to account for the changes in those areas over time. I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure there are multiple non-fringe viewpoints about what's a legitimate concern

1673:

Above, I have presented a detailed explanation of how your paraphrase is neither close nor acceptable per policy, detailing extensively how it is synthesis, and I also provided an example of a segment where there is nothing in the source that can support it, synth or not. The fact that you are unable

1561:

is where they announced the creation of it). This is not some random person on the internet writing on Tumblr or Wordpress their own personal views. As far as the wording, I dont see how destroy is less neutral, but I dont oppose changing it to demolish. The removal of the rest of the caption however

1403:

Synth, possibly going as far as OR, also occurs here in another section of the above fragment "together with an aspiration to play the role as "top proxy" for the United States, led to the export in the 1980s of these techniques"; this comes from the quote included by Pieterse stating "Israel coveted

805:

Israeli law (copy pasted) does not apply in full to recognized settlements (for instance - planning and zoning). It does not apply at all (ignoring personal basis application) to Jews living outside of recognized settlements. Adminstrative demolitions, limitations, and detentions have been applied on

3505:

I opened a discussion on this and got no response for two days, hence its removal. One cannot put a POV tag on the article page, which refers us to ongoing talk page discussion, and then edit in a large mass of ill-organized material while refusing to engage on the talk page. Jonney's piece was just

2227:

Sure, but it’s not clear that we all have the same idea re the scope of this section. We need to break the catch-22 cycle that this discussion has been in. Anyway I have started a structure above - perhaps you could point to the sources you have in mind and let’s develop it from there. I will do the

2023:

Now, as you have decided to repeat the incredibly inaccurate claim about "non-reference footnotes", there is literally no policy or guideline that exists that supports the view that notes are included in the size calculation, or that they should be removed. Not one thing. And as far being irregular,

1947:

No need to apologize, it's still a voluntary website. Thank you for the précises and I also noticed that edits were made in response to (at least some, but a good number of) the NPOV concerns in the threads above. I, for one, was disappointed by the timing of the AfD nomination, which seemed to come

1878:

I would add one further comment: at least two solid sentences should be drafted, probably appearing in the third paragraph, describing 1) The Israeli government's most basic position on the need to control the territory for their security concerns, and 2) U.S. overt or tacit support, since this is a

1825:

Thank you for the effort, but that doesn't address my concerns - it doesn't even mention Israel seeking to be the "Top-Proxy", which as I mentioned is only mentioned once and in a non-applicable context, while it also doesn't mention "peasant revolts" or "land expropriation", which as I mentioned is

1803:

Since early 1984, Israeli security advisers have been called in to train Lankan security personnel. Already, the structural similarities between the Tamils of Sri Lanka and the Palestinians are notable-again policies centered on land, control, demography, and terror combine in order to consolidate a

1582:

I have added a source for the caption (one of B'Tselem's articles on Khirbet Ein Karzaliyah). B'Tselem uses the word "demolish" and never "destroy" so I changed that word, and I also expanded the caption slightly per the source cited. That said, the picture sucks. The reason is because it shows some

1394:

To explain this, I will go through each issue point by point (it should be noted that it is possible I missed some direct statements by Pieterse; given the issue with page numbers, I needed to read the whole book, rather than just the referenced pages, to conduct this analysis, and I may have missed

1310:

Jordan doesn't 'currently occupy' the East Bank. It is a duly constituted nation east of the Jordan River, just as Israel is of the area between the Mediterranean and the West Bank. It is also incorrect to assert that 'before the country (Jordan) was created' (1946) this area (Jordan/West Bank?) was

1044:

Upon further research, I'm having an issue with this reference. It appears to have been created for the Emancipation Foundation based in Amsterdam, but I cannot find any information on this foundation. Research into the book also finds no information on it; it has an ISBN, and while I can find notes

520:

Icewhiz, you ignored my question. If this article has to be condensed by a factor of four, that would apply to the article Israel as well. Yet no one has raised that issue there. I certainly never would. If your concern was simply one of adequacy to a policy on length, then, given your interests, it

465:

The first deals with Palestinians (gut it). The second deals with Israel (fine). The difference between them is 10% (more text in the first. I am not objecting to the Israel article because of some ostensible best policy failure (it's poorly written and has a thousand things lacking. I simply am not

3559:

I have been responding here by analyses and redrafting to several issues opposing editors say trouble them: (a) reducing the bulk as requested, now by a third and (b) adding a security issue overview as long as the one you provided, since it was argued this was needed (I doubted it, but part of our

2944:

Well, for one, I am not for automatic removal: it has the virtue of showing an editor has done some of the homework to be expected for an article like this, even though what is not reported in the sources cited is glaring. What I think is needed is a discussion here about (a) what length are people

2557:

The notes are indispensable for the reader who may just wish to see the source for some controversial fact or whatever without the exasperation of actually looking it up or finding the e-link inaccessible, to give just one of many reasons for them. Those that will be removed, will be as part of the

2472:

is getting us nowhere, and sinking what is a reasonable invitation to actually do something to address the concerns expressed. I can cite good source grounds casting suspicion on the idea one can get anywhere by examining ostensible 'motivations', but I don't because it would disrupt the attempt to

2300:

One must always use great care in attributing to an abstract noun like a state or a people a consistent set of values or policies. The great sticking point in writing this proposed section will be that 'Israel' has never formulated a national security policy (the political sociology for this lacuna

1728:

I stand by every word I wrote, which is a paraphrase of pp.59-64 mainly, and underscored by the whole text. Indeed in rapidly skimming over the article versus the paraphrase, I showed remarkable restraint in the face of a source that is far more damning. As I said, Zero is an acknowledged extremely

1652:

I think my paraphrases are close to the passages in Pieterse, and that there is no original research. I can't see the point you are driving at.Unfortunately I am extremely busy and can't afford the time at the moment to review all of this immediately (that is probably true of all of us) What little

1525:

The image MOS states "Generally, Knowledge assumes in good faith that image creators are correctly identifying the contents of photographs they have taken." - the quote states "Israeli military forces arriving to destroy the Palestinian community of Khirbet Ein Karzaliyah, 8 January, 2014, thereby

1410:

POV bias occurs when the statement from Pieterse "Israel's involvement in Honduras/Nicaragua and EISalvador issaid to be related to reports of links between the PLO and Central American movements." is excluded from the section discussing why Pieterse believes Israel is active in those locations - a

1399:

Synth occurs where the editors stated "Israeli counterinsurgency expertise developed in repressing the uprisings in both the West Bank and Gaza ... led to the export in the 1980s of these techniques to places like...". This appears to be a conflation of this fragment "To understand Israel's methods

1382:

at some points in this article. For instance, there is a picture in the House Demolitions subsection captioned with "Israeli military forces arriving to destroy the Palestinian community of Khirbet Ein Karzaliyah, 8 January, 2014, thereby rendering homeless the entire population of 10 adults and 15

901:

also doesn't contain an overly long notes section (132 non-reference notes with 51kb of text in the present article!). Most of its binary size seems to come from references and quotations within (contentious subjects often lead to many citations + quotations from the citations to support the text).

853:

As I have just noted on my page, a request to cut back the article was made, and I, for one, adopted the proper procedure by making précises of material, maintaining the bare gist, and shifting the excised text to relevant sister or main articles. The response by those objecting to its size was (a)

660:

Such niggling is pointless, you are wrong, but I have no problem in allowing you to maintain your belief that I won't own up to the 'truth', which probably is that, unlike here, all efforts to seriously remodulate and reduce that article in the terms set forth here, will flounder or come up against

290:

You removed, in its entirety, the material on a terminology bias. You removed, in its entirety, the material on American media coverage. You removed, in its entirety, material on land seizures. About the seizure methods used to create settlements. About Zionist leaders plans to seize territory from

3563:

The problem underlying all this hostility to the page is very simple: the serious literature, as opposed to newspaper reports, documents in intricate detail a picture that many find distasteful. No one yet has contested that these things exist, or a fudged or forged or trumped up: they are saying,

3555:

POV? The 'bullshit' is in the sources, and two of them I used after carefully reading all of those you brought to bear on the topic of security. I set forth some objections to your addition, advised that it be left there while we discussed them, outlined several problems which, in the light of the

3189:

In the early 1950s Israel military doctrine called for a territorial defense model in which border settlements would block and delay invading forces until the reserve forces could be mobilised. This approach became untenable after the Arab nations developed significant offensive power. The Israeli

3054:

All of the second paragraph is useless, bar the last sentence, for it has nothing to do with the West Bank, but the history of Israeli military doctrines, and ignores points made in Imbar's book. that military strategy abandoned the notion of borders as security barriers with the advent of missile

2754:

queries were unnecessary, since the whole paragraph was multiply-sourced, and everything there comes from a close paraphrase of those sources. The points made can be extensively documented to a dozen different scholars, though it is a documented commonplace, so really, asking 'by whom' just means

1829:

As for the other section; that is indeed less clear cut, but I would still lean towards synth - stating "the expertise gained led to the development of methods that for reason (insert various reasons found in document here) was then exported would be ok", as the article supports the development of

1337:

compliance with policy, not guidelines. (The reasoning, as I understand it, is that the newest Knowledge content, which DYK is supposed to showcase, will be works in progress, possibly falling short on some guidelines at the time of nomination, but the Main Page can't promote links to articles not

542:

before you falsely state that "no one has raised the issue there." Onceinawhile and I have raised the issue there. In fact, trying to condense that article has been the same experience as trying to condense this article, except over there, I think we're only writing 5,000 talk page words for every

149:

Wow that must have taken you a long time! Thanks for the effort; I wonder how long until it's reverted :-) Can you comment on whether the material that was removed: was already in the child articles, will be added to the child articles, should be added to the child articles, etc.? Were there child

3177:

Securing Israel's borders via border adjustments and demilitarized zones has been an Israeli foreign policy goal. In 1969 Abba Eban famously referred to the pre-1967 borders as "Auschwitz borders." The term has since become iconic within Israeli political discourse. The Israelis were not alone in

2411:

I'm not sure that stressing these inflection points does much. E.g. while the Begin government did change the settlement policy somewhat (but not radically) - but I'm not sure a tie-in with the Golan (a smaller and geographically distant issue, with different demographics dating back to 67) or EJ

2393:

The trouble is, similar to Nishidani's point, most of the reason we are still here today is not because the Israeli government consciously decided to do anything major after 1967, but rather because they never decided to put a stop to this. It's much harder to identify critical historical moments

1390:

This issue is then expanded in areas such as the Pieterse references, where the writers of this article appear to create a synthesis of his writings found here. This article, under the Wider Implications subsection, states that "Since the late 1970s, according to Jan Nederveen Pieterse writing in

840:

trimming might do it good despite the topic being of sufficient importance to warrant an article longer than average. However, Icewhiz's massacre somehow managed to focus on removing material that shows Israel in a bad light. Of course this could not indicate an unwillingness to edit objectively,

477:

many details, managing in just a few edits to cut it back 7,000b. The immediate response was to expand it again by 7,000b, a 'tactic' which, for me, exposed a lack of seriousness by those protesting at the length. The result? Paralysing the one attempt here to actually find a fair compromise with

355:

From time immemorial writers have complained when editors do editing and cut down an overly long tract of text. This is Knowledge - not a book. We have size guidelines, which should be followed. I retained most of the subject matter. The only topic I really cut out entirely is the last section on

3037:

Dayan, as Jonney's sources state, was erratic and he was speaking without cabinet authority. Secondly Jonney drops the reason for Jordan's refusal: the Dayan proposal failed to mention the idea that Israel would withdraw. If you want to go into that it gets very complicated, because right in the

2981:

was astutely emotive rhetoric, but represented a new twist and was quickly adopted as the slogan for an territorially expansionist geopolitical design, namely Likudniks an their like (not simply 'iconic within Israeli political discourse'). Begin used it to justify invading, without provocation,

2836:

should be written out as a general rule of writing. If it can be stated, just state it (and strike "it is claimed", etc., altogether); if it can't be stated in Knowledge's voice, then attribute it ("most scholars agree...", "according to Levivich...." etc.). In that particular paragraph that was

1891:

This is a good idea, but I have a slight problem about 'Israel's most basic position' as a 'security concern'. That can be understood two ways: (a) the West Bank must be controlled because its inhabitants are a threat to settlers or to the state of Israel over the Green Line (b) as a buffer area

922:

Notes arent included in the readable prose. If you have a problem with notes being included in a reference work I suggest you spend your time on Lulu.com or Createspace instead of Knowledge. Any number of articles exceed or approach this ones size (WWI was given as an example, though it covers 4

2504:

I might give it a go at it 'round next week (I did write a bit (back a while ago? reverted) in the article + have some sources squirreled away). I prefer however to wait until you are done with your cut-down (précis) Nishidani (could you please radically trim the footnotes, leaving only what is

2060:

It does not say that. Please quote where it does. It also very specifically says that it is readable prose that counts for that, which endnotes are not. You can keep claiming that it is a massive overuse, but, repeating your line back to you, if you have a problem with notes being included in a

1753:

As for the statement itself, if you stand by it then I ask you to prove it is not synth and not OR. In other words, I would appreciate it if you quote where Pieterson states that "Israeli counterinsurgency expertise developed in repressing the uprisings in both the West Bank and Gaza led to the

360:

the required size - there is plenty of cutting to do, which in this case contained off-topic as well as overly long and detailed on-topic material. Perhaps this poorly written mess (POV, sloppy repititions, length) should be moved to draft space until a reasonable consensus can be found to meet

260:

TOOLONG does not allow an editor to simply chop off material. You did not move it to any other article. Your efforts at neutering this article, from its very creation, are not going to just be accepted. You removed, without discussion, 150kB. And you have the gaul to ask others for policy based

1556:

is about self-published blogs that have no editorial oversight. B'tselem's "Eyes Wide Open" photo blog is not a blog in that sense. That is not a place where any person can publish their own personal views and or images. These are published by B'tselem, they take responsibility for its content

1023:

There is an issue with imprecise referencing on this article. For instance, in several cases an author known as Jan Nederveen Pieterse is referenced for his 1984 book. The book title is not specified, but as far as I can tell he only published one book in 1984 (and only one book in relation to

862:

i.e. bad faith. In response to Icewhiz's gutting of the page, once more today I showed that this can be cut back notably by attentive synthesis and the transfer of the original texts under excision to other articles or to articles one can easily create. Attempts to eviscerate content by simple

2490:, Icewhiz, I take it you decline outright to offer a draft? If so, who else among those arguing such a section is needed is willing to step in and roll up their sleeves? If no one does, then I for one will do it, but not before I have finished my précis, which should be by the end of the week. 2344:

This structure could be applied here, to make this question focus on the practical decisions made by the various Israeli governments along the way. We would then focus on the particular personalities at play within the Israeli establishment over the decades, and how they reached each of their

1932:

Thanks. By the way, I apologize for my delays in the overhaul, which stopped in mid-track as a result of the distracting demands caused by some bickering and deletionist pressure (if people think this is to be deleted, am I too persist in wasting precious hours carefully redrafting?)Two large

338:

which covers 18 years and far outstrips this in length with no sense among editors of, to use that ridiculous Podhoretz phrase, 'clear an d present danger' laying siege to it. Patience, gentlemen, patience. Guidelines are not dictates (and are mostly written to help people with little formal

2305:

for the state differ radically among government factions. The constitutive parties of any coalition regularly differ as to what is indispensable, from peace along the 1967 borders, peace negotiated with swaps of territory over those borders, partial annexation without concessions, to total

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I could continue word by word through this, to show that each point needs qualification (expansion) and grossly oversimplifies the numerous proposals about secure borders just in those early years. My impression therefore is that this is too unfocused and off-topic: we need a 'West

2016:

is a guideline, and nowhere does it say that the readable prose should be around 60 kB. It gives ranges, and says greater than 100 kB almost certainly should be divided. It very much does not support the idea that an article must be 60 kB, and in this very talk page you wrote that

1251:) should know that I will evaluate consensus among editors who are actively engaged in trying to resolve the dispute. So if they would like to see the article reflect an NPOV and be accepted as such, they should revisit this discussion and try to improve the article in good faith. 1994:- should be around 60kb. In addition, the 30kb of prose (and lack of balance) in the 72 non-reference footnotes (an irregular article feature to say the least) requires work (quite possibly - cutting most of them out all together). We also have content that should be added per 356:"Israeli critical judgements" which for an odd reason is a long section devoted to fringe Israeli anti-Zionists (while not reflecting other POVs - Israeli or non-Israeli). Indeed - when cutting an article that at 200+K readable prose (overly long notes included) is well over 2885:

Israel's Security Concerns while I am supposed to gut the actual topic's basic data outline. As I said originally, this argument is so complex you would need a full wiki 8,000 word article to deal with it, and this is not the place to write it, except at 1 or 2 para length.

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In 1977, Israeli technicians built an electrified "wall" at the Namibia-Angola border to keep SWAPO forces from entering Namibia. A similar system of electronic border surveillance (valla electronica) has been under construction since 1982 in Costa Rica on the border with

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If so, then part of the issue is that, per Pieterse, that article is from 1985, not 1984, though the book was written in 1984. Apart from that little issue, then the rest of it was my mistake - I was not familiar with the style of referencing used in this article. --

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would obviously translate into a radical reduction of that other article. Why is your concern unilaterally focused on anything to do with Palestinians, and your policy objections there exempted from similar articles on Israel, which happens to be the occupying power?

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editors who outlined a best policy objection. To repeat - if a compromise is offered, and the objectors immediately refuse it by playing expansionist games to fill up the space created by a series of précises, then the credibility of the original objection is erased.

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one must look at Israel's source of expertise in the field of counter-insurgency - the West Bank and Gaza." and various mentions that Israel is active in those countries in various roles - sometimes, but not always, stated to be counter-insurgency activities.

743:

What utter nonsense. Jewish settlers, aka the colonial presence, are very specifically governed by civilian law, not military. The native population, the Palestinians, is not. You should read this article, you may learn a thing or two. And again, nothing in

3364: 1467:, and so perhaps taking what is effectively a direct quote from it is not the best idea in terms of creating a neutral article? On an unrelated note, perhaps it would be been better to put this at the end of my writing, rather than in the middle of it? -- 2045:

The guidline clearly says we should shoot for 60. A small amount of endnotes are fine to include. Endnotes are not, however, intended to house an article size construction (in this case - some 72 of them with 30kb of prose) - that is a massive overuse of

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With regard to (b) Contemporary Israeli military thinking no longer thinks of this as a buffer zone, something indispensable in an earlier era of massed armies, and tank and armoured blitzkriegs, which are now superseded by airpower/missile technology.

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A point of order - the occupation is an Israeli institution/regime - not Palestinian, and Jews (native born in the West Bank) live under the yoke of the military gvmt as well. As for article length - an axe is the correct editing tool when an article us

1279:

I asked several questions of you when you first commented, you never responded. You wrote about the Jordanian occupation of the East Bank, a phrase which still makes no sense to me. Can you please explain what it is you that you find lacking here?

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came up with a proposal to return the West Bank and Gaza almost completely in exchange for a peace treaty. Unlike Wheeler, they saw no need for retaining any territory on security grounds. The document was given to Dayan, who ignored it. The same

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Are you saying ethnonationalist dislike has merit? And are you saying I'm racist? That I want to spin-off this article and create more articles on the subject because I'm racist against Palestinians? This is why I want to create two new articles,

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Im sorry, but this doesnt make a lot of sense to me. We dont make up a set of reasons or motivations and then go looking for sources to document that. First bring sources, then develop a section is the order or operations that makes sense to me.

2093:, how long the article goes. I'll get back to trimming (and there are some sections as yet unwritten) when I am free of my obligations on the aboriginal articles shortly. At the moment of the 2,000 long articles it is at position 765, just under 400:, that is um I will be gentle and simply say not the truth. Ive listed several topics you removed entirely. Please dont pretend your latest effort at neutering coverage that you deem critical of Israel on Knowledge is anything other than that. 1404:

the job of top Washington proxy in Central America"; this is used by Pieterse in relation to Israel being a proxy for the provision of US funds to certain South American groups, not in relation to the export of counter-insurgency techniques.

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The dating is important because, according to the military historian Reuven Pedahzur, prior to 1967 the Israeli government did not regard the West Bank (or the Sinai/Golan) as having vital strategic value (Gorenberg:2007 p.49, from memory)

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resisting any change to the mess is not Knowledge editing. A collaborative cut down edit would have been to return bits you thought were important, while condensing further other bits - so that we all together turn this mess into something

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than dictated by Knowledge guidelines (and when for most of the sub-topics we already have a preexisting article, there is little spinoff creation relevant). A 7K trim here is close to nothing - this needs to be condensed by a factor of

3230: 213:, wouldn't you agree, at the rate we're going, for every word that is changed in any way on the article page, we are writing 10,000 words on the talk page? There must be a better way to reach consensus. I'm all ears for suggestions. 2831:

That wasn't me who placed those tags; you may have me confused with another editor with a similar name. I think the sourcing is clear, but FWIW, I think the constructions "it is claimed" or "it is argued" and all such passive-voice

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Never use Google's automatically-inferred years. They are often wrong, even by more than a century. I believe that 1984 is the correct year, because the publication year is decided by the journal, not the author. You can see on the

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We again encounter a configuration of policies similar to Israel ... Months later, in Israel, General Benditto Garcia, Lucas' brother, chief of staff of the Guatemalan Army, attributed the government's military success to Israel's

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As old Heiltag would tell his précis class in the 40s, ’cut to the chase, boys, (a) flense it of fat and get to the meat, and once the blubber is whittled, (b) go back through the text to make for concision.' We are not yet at

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tagged, I'd say the first sentence can be stated in WP's voice (although not just after 2003), and the second sentence (I believe) could be attributed to the Israeli government (and possibly its supporters like the US govt?).

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humvees and a bulldozer. I believe B'Tselem that these particular vehicles were going to Khirbet Ein Karzaliyah in January 2014, but, frankly, it could be a picture of anybody going anywhere. Compare with the pictures used at

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plunked there, and abandoned in silence, despite legitimate concerns, from its failure to have the matter conform to the citational format adopted, to lengthy remarks that had no connection to the specific section concern:

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Knowledge policy. Dumping a poorly written 367kb mess (for a topic well covered in pre-existing parent and sub-topic articles - spinoffs weren't created since we already have them) in mainspace and then in rather blatant

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Moshe Dayan proposed a peace treaty with Jordan on September 3, 1967. Under the terms Jordan would exercise civil administration in the West Bank while Israel would maintain military control. The Jordanians rejected the

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and what's an excuse, and what maybe was once a concern but is now an excuse, etc. But that would come with drafting the text and incorporating the sources. For now, this seems like a perfectly reasonable outline to me.

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Perhaps these issues are confined to the Pieterse reference and a few other isolated occasions - but I would consider it highly unlikely that the only reference I examined happened to be the only reference with issues.

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Jonney's effort expanded the 108kB to 112kB, and my adjustment left us at the same figure again,112kB. less a few hundred words, complicating my efforts to pare this down in response to requests. I'll continue to do

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I am sorry for your personal circumstances, but the way I see it is if you have time to contribute, as it appears you do, you should have time to defend your contributions, should they be reasonably challenged. --

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interested in it. Other editors are frantically concerned with this kind of length when the topic happens to be Palestinians, and show no interest in applying the same criterion to the Israel article. Yes, I know

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My mistake. All the same, that doesn't mean there is no issue with the statement, just that the issue is different from what I initially thought. The source appears to be a blog within a wider page, and thus per

1264:

Most of what I think needs to happen involves addition of extra material to result in balance. Since the article is already too big (in top 100 in size) it will be out of policy which ever direction it moves in.

1633:, I see you were the one who added the Pieterson statements and as such your input on that part of this would be appreciated - the photo issue has already been resolved through the addition of a citation. -- 2429:

The practical question here is whether we structure this “motivations” section in a historical manner, ensuring that through this the points in the box at the top of this section come through with clarity.

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Negotiating bargaining chip (e.g. Israeli support for relinquishing some of the land if and when an agreement is reached to allow retention of Jerusalem, the main settlements and permanent security control)

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about it existing on occasion, including that its publisher was "Intl Ctr Res& Public Policy", I cannot find any more information than this. does anyone know if this publisher meets the requirements of

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If you knew my personal circumstances, you wouldn't misread the above. I have extremely serious carer engagements with two desperately ill people, and that is more important than extreme wiki punctuality.

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in his classic paper of 1971, which is sitting there, relatively unconsulted though it anticipated and covered most bases in this specific topic concern, in the article's bibliopgraphy see esp. pp.186ff.

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or unwilling to justify this sentence against, if I can blow my own horn, an extensive and well documented discussion of its issues is worrying, and I ask that you reconsider choosing to ignore this. --

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The launching of unguided rockets from Gaza following the unilateral withdrawal lead to fears among the Israeli public that the West Bank hills could become a launching site for inexpensive short range

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article, which has nothing like the fuss of obliteration per radical trimming demands being asked of this. The overriding consideration is that this topic has, per meta-statements in sources, gathered

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The article covers that Jordan had previously occupied the West Bank in the section The West Bank in 1967. I dont see why that needs to be in the first sentence though, it is, present tense, occupied

2527:. So far I have complied with a minority request to reduce this significantly, and will continue to do so. I still have to add sections myself, so it is not going to go to far below the 95kB level. 639:, I'm glad you now realize that some of the same editors who are trying to reduce the length of this article have also been trying to reduce the length of that article, even if you won't admit it. 2473:

get something down on the page which might cut the Gordian knot of 'opposition' to the article and a concomitant silence as how to fix a number of issues by concrete drafting proposals like this.

1587:, which actually depict house demolition. I don't see any problem with this picture staying in from an RS or NPOV perspective, but I think a better one could be found. (Or multiple better ones.) 2426:

Perhaps. I don’t consider Oslo much of an inflection point, but rather a failed negotiation. The meat of Oslo was in what was supposed to happen but never did (and many considered never would).

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OR and POV bias occurs where the editors stated that this was exported to "put down peasant revolts against land expropriation", a statement that is at no point supported by the assumed source.

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curious omission, given that the article goes to great lengths to explain why Israel is present with theories that are not directly stated by Pieterse but the article does reference to him.

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Icewhiz. You appear to be using a guideline to 'shoot' the article. I haven't finished yet but with a little patience, I will get this to 95-90 kB, if not more. That is on a par with the

1584: 982: 782:"security" against the reasonable human rights of the Palestinians. Unfortunately, because Israel doesn't make itself accountable to those millions over whom it rules, we have a totally 119:

the article. I'll note that the post-trim article, with some 76K chars of readable prose in the body, 2k chars in the lede, and a staggering 50 footnotes with 16k additional prose -

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Ah, Sorry about that! Lagrange it was! I generally agree about the nonsensical levels to which attribution, claims etc., can go. We can finecomb these things in a stylistic review.

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The Begin governments' 1980-81 decisions to incorporate the Golan and EJ into Israel but to leave the rest in limbo under a new "Civil Administration" subordinate to the military

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First draft above. Please feel free to amend. I suggest we focus on structure/weight first, as we all have a good sense of what is and is not sourceable on this particular topic.

3051:(a Palestinian notable)'s offer of a peace agreement with Israel in exchange for a Palestinian state, if Israeli kept Jordan off their backs. Zero comment.(Gorenberg 2007 p.39) 3477: 1973:

We are currently at 107 kB of readable prose. A few more minor trims may be needed, but at this point I think the needed work in bringing this down a bit in size is complete.

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because 'Preceding attacks' could be by anyone, including Palestinians, and misses the point in the source re a choice of language that buttresses an Israeli narrative spin.

1147:. However, this wasn't the issue I was raising where I pinged, which is about how the source is used. If you reread the first post in that section you should understand. -- 771:

if you want to improve this article, it would help if you would stop antagonizing. "Jews live under the yoke of the military gvmt as well" is a gross misrepresentation and

2089:

and it is that bulk of intensely focused research which must be covered, even if in minimal terms. One must look at the demands of the content coverage, which determines,

1494:, we generally accept in good faith the description of an image as most images that are used in reliable sources such as newspapers are copyrighted and cant be used here. 1419:

Of course, I hasten to add, I am not making any statement about the veracity of these claims, just about whether the provided reference is appropriate to support them. --

94: 86: 81: 69: 64: 59: 775:. And even if it were true, it is one thing being a citizen of the country who rules you, it is quite another living under a regime which has no accountability to you. 597:, the revival of that effort. Also, as Nableezy pointed out, Israel has 96k of readable prose; this article has nearly twice that. Still, editors are trying to reduce 1130:

1985 is indeed the date. Unless there are objections, I'll change 1984 to 1985 within a day or so, or, in the meantime anyone can legitimately correct Jstor's error.

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Icewhiz. If the length of ther article required you to urgently excise 149,000b, why haven't you been equally 'worried' to propose and excise half of the text at

3062:'According to the new prevalent thinking, strategic depth and defensible borders, articles of faith in the past- are a strategic anachronism.' (Inbar 2007 p.92) 772: 2376:

Various Israeli governments’ numerous publicly-stated red lines vis a vis the West Bank as part of the various failed overall negotiations in the 1990s / 2000s

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would you be willing to participate in the building of a section of this nature, such that if done properly it has the potential to assuage your POV concerns?

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As for the source not being a blog on a wider site, that page describes itself as an image blog, or does that website have an unusual definition of blog? --

601:. Your statements that no one raised length as an issue in Israel, or that no one did until after this occupation article appeared, are demonstrably false. 1733:

with the issue of sources and OR, and I will duly defer to his opinion, whatever he determines. That's more time than I should allow myself on this farce.

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You are looking in the wrong place. The source is not a book but an article in the academic journal Crime and Social Justice, which changed its name to

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is the same that my own link provided. It states that the article is to be dated 1984. If Jstor got it wrong, then please supply the relevant details.

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Simple synthetic sentences of complex realities are extremely difficult, especially when as here, the various motivations are historically variegated.

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I think, as stated above, that this is highly problematical, but the matter contained there could eventually e used for a large main article on the

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Could those who want a security section at least start drafting some prose, under some headings? Just turning Onceinawhile's outline proposal into

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Religious/Nationalistic support for settlements (e.g. in regards to the settler movement this seems an important motivation of Gush Emunim et al)

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of the fact that the houses were demolished, the fact that the population was as stated, and the fact that this typically leads to homelessness.

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above. This would have the additional advantage of allowing any additions to be co-ordinated with Nishidani's work in trimming the article. --

2101:. Who is kicking up an unearthly ruckus about the length of those, the former of which compared to this has close to zilch academic coverage? 335: 3402: 3331: 3156: 3122: 2798: 2696: 2676: 2653: 2630: 2610: 807: 778:

All the "effects" in this article are very real. If the Palestinians in the West Bank could vote in Israeli elections, Israel would need to

893:- beyond being OSE and dictating how other volunteer editors should spend their time - the Israel article is actually not a violation of 176: 440: 1171:

that this double issue has year 1984. I don't know why the author's web page says 1985 — maybe the issue took a long time to come out.

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The Eshkol government's decision at the end of the war not to give the territory back to Jordan, and the decision to ignore UNSCR 242;

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To understand Israel's methods one must look at Israel's source of expertise in the field of counterinsurgency-the West Bank and Gaza.

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in 1988. This is clearly stated in the bibliography section of the article and confirmed by the page numbers. You can see the article

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are there other critical moments you are aware of that form the fundamental Israeli government underpinning of the current status?

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the methods being due to the experience, but it does not support the export of the methods being directly due to the experience.

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Israeli assistance on this front consists of military sales to Honduras and acting as a back-up source of assistance to contras.

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but citing that to dismiss the objection, when there are ethnonational anxieties here doesn't erase the disparity in 'concerns'.

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within policy.) As such, I will not consider the article's length in the nomination (except to note that it easily meets DYK's

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No, actually it is a near-verbatim paraphrase of the description given by the image source, as you can see by clicking on it.

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is also a collaborative effort of many editors (of differing POVs) - as opposed to a text mainly written by a single editor.

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Let's stop with the attempts to whitewash please, and focus on helping readers understand what they come here to learn about.

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just as jokes like "Jews live under the yoke of the military gvmt as well" could not indicate a contempt for other editors.

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years to this ones 50-plus), and again SIZE does not allow for an editor to simply remove material he finds uncomfortable.

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In general, this article is full of pro-Palestinian bias, so at least add all the relevant facts to the first paragraph.

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This is the best book I am aware of on the period from the war to late 1968. Extremely detailed and thoroughly sourced.

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I don't see any merit, other than ethnonationalist dislike, in any of the other proposals or practices in evidence here.

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requires this be reduced at all, it recommends it, and as shown before there are plenty of articles that exceed 60 kB.

127:) - and is particularly still bloated in regards to the possible insertion of additional content. Please discuss here. 2028:

should disabuse you of that notion. Endnotes are fine to include, and they do not play a part in the size discussion.

1750:, once again I've moved your response to the correct section. Can I ask that you try to post them here in the future? 3537:

Any edit that is made to this page that does not pass your POV is destroyed. I give up. I cannot take your bullshit.

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no consistent or clear consensus exists in Israel as to what constitutes its core principles of territorial security

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I object to. We can attribute it to B'tselem if you really want, but I dont even think that is necessary. As far as

1529:"Israeli military forces arriving to demolish the Palestinian community of Khirbet Ein Karzaliyah, 8 January, 2014". 809:

And yes - effects of occupation on Jewish residents should be in as weĺl. Regardless - this article is way too long.

568:. Neither of them got a response. There are complaints about any one section's length, but nothing I can see about 467: 38: 2592:

See below some sources which provide specifics on the key post-war moments in 1967 which created the occupation:

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Securing Israel's borders via border adjustments and demilitarized zones has been an Israeli foreign policy goal

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because of my ethnonational dislike of Palestinians? What's your basis? Is it that my username suggests I'm a

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Note: I have refactored to put the original comment back together, and moved inline responses to the bottom.

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Instead of hiding the facts, which promotes the writer's agenda, the first paragraph should look like this:

622:

Nope. I wrote:'There are complaints about any one section's length,' which is what your two links refer to.

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Israel military actions are "responses" to Palestinian attacks, though preceding attacks are often omitted.

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Levivich. The legitimate/excuse opposition is very complex and difficult to untangle, for reasons given by

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The Israeli Military and the Origins of the 1967 War: Government, Armed Forces and Defence Policy 1963–67

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Incidentally, where did "repressing" come from? I can't remember if I saw it in the original article. --

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it is not usable as a source. Aside from that issue, the page doesn't appear to meet the requirements of

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Please do not, the footnotes do not need any work at all. Removal of them would likely be reverted.

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The Eshkol government's decision in 1967 to formalize military rule, settling in for the long haul;

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As to your request in the section above, I've checked and rechecked some time ago, but the link at

868: 672: 627: 577: 526: 489: 344: 3418:"United Nations' and Non-United Nations' Peace-Keeping in the Arab-Israeli Sector: Five Scenarios" 897:

as the readable prose there is 96kb - beneath 100kb - though it should probably be trimmed a bit.

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Please strike the personal attacks above, and the baseless accusation of edit warring (a single

2337:

to WP:FA; the "motivations" question for this are similarly complex. On the day it made WP:GA,

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planned to become part of Israel. By whom? Certainly by no resident power or authority by 1922.

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text can be copied from another article, the security bit probably needs to be developed here.

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Actually you should read the archives. Over the 75, I can see two attempts to raise the issue

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I wouldn't run the script to convert it until this issue of its adequacy here is settled.

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A Half Century of Occupation: Israel, Palestine, and the World's Most Intractable Conflict

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one of the most voluminous outputs of contemporary scholarship on any country or conflict,

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Huh?? Removing half of the article without discussing it first? What are you thinking of?

1227:. The current sticking point is the ongoing dispute over whether this article reflects a 2456:

while the Begin government did change the settlement policy somewhat (but not radically)

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of which only the first part is identification of content and thus covered by the policy

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when the it's been, broadly speaking, a continuation of the status quo for 50+ years.

2301:

is obvious: government is by coalition there, and the respective visions of what is a

1670:, I have placed your response in the appropriate section; I hope that is not an issue. 3195: 3048: 2986: 2838: 2733: 2283: 2269: 2244: 1442: 1224: 1172: 1081: 886: 882: 842: 707: 640: 602: 544: 362: 214: 151: 1168: 1145: 3039: 3008:

We originally had much of this, far more succinctly, and it was cut down radically:

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The Eshkol government's 1967 decision to implement the Allon Plan re settlements;

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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I also saw the recent 4k addition, to which my first reaction is that it uses.

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an actual source, which argues that Begin's changes to settlement were radical

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By focusing on these moments, we keep it factual rather than judgement-based.

1808:

Pieterse lists each of these places under "export of Israeli Methods". SYNTH?

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reverts made - I took it to the talk page). In regards to your rather bizzare

2985:

What the chiefs of staff at the Pentagon thought in one military plan, under

1383:

minors". I cannot find a source stating this, and instead it appears to be a

3044: 2968:, secure or defensible borders became the goal of Israel's foreign policy,' 1487: 3478:"ISRAELI, PA GENERALS AGREED: 10-15 YEARS OF IDF PRESENCE IN JORDAN VALLEY" 2065:. So which is it? Do articles over 60 kB need an axe taken to them or not? 964:

the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and continues to the present day.

565: 3216:

Israel's National Security: Issues and Challenges Since the Yom Kippur War

2021:. So which is it? Do articles over 60 kB need an axe taken to them or not? 3441:

Peacekeeping Fiascoes of the 1990s: Causes, Solutions, and U.S. Interests

2902:(in my opinion, which doesn't matter here) an intolerable citation style 2603:

The Accidental Empire: Israel and the Birth of the Settlements, 1967-1977

2098: 1077: 572:, until very recently, so far briefly and after this article appeared. 1874:

I'm copying and pasting this suggestion from Darouet on the AfD page.

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edit is not edit warring - nor are my other edits - with each of the

858:, and expand he same article's Israel-related content in defiance of 703: 454: 419: 309: 423: 3596:

templates on this page, but the references will not show without a

3366:

The Economics of Producing Defense: Illustrated by the Israeli Case

956:

The Israeli occupation of the West Bank began on 7 June 1967 when,

3038:

thick of conquest, the Israel military's research department with

2012:

You keep bringing links like they actually support your position.

1144:

No objections from me; his personal website also lists it as 1985

3026:

I.e. my original brief 66 words has become 130 and the key point:

2523:

There's no hurry. I doubt whether the notes are going to go away

171:

Part of it could be forked off if one really wanted to - e.g. to

3347:

Trapped Fools: Thirty Years of Israeli Policy in the Territories

3138:

Trapped Fools: Thirty Years of Israeli Policy in the Territories

2646:

The Prime Ministers: An Intimate Narrative of Israeli Leadership

1354:

Your patience and precision in this regard is much appreciated.

1990:

It's an improvement, but an axe is still needed to comply with

316:

is 136 kB. WWI covers 4 years and change. This covers 50-plus.

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I met the objection to length by beginning to synthesize and

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Levi Eshkol: From Pioneering Operator to Tragic Hero--a Doer

2706:

If anyone can point to other sources, it would be helpful.

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geopolitically against threats from neighbouring states.

2182:

Reasons for not incorporating the territory into Israel

1219:

For those who are unaware, I'm reviewing this article's

3494:

Israel, Jordan, and Palestine: The Two-state Imperative

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Reasons for not allowing Palestinians sovereignty over

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smack in the middle of significant productive editing.

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On page 67, still under that same heading, he writes:

689:, sorry, you'll have to clarify that last bit for me: 543:

article word changed. Do you know why that is? I do.

1585:

House demolition in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict

3369:. Springer Science & Business Media. pp. 44–45. 3235:. Walter de Gruyter GmbH & Co KG. 2017. p. 419. 2461:Immediately invites one to suggest its author read 177:

Views of the Israeli radical left on the occupation

2165:Security concerns (invasion from the east, terror) 209:Almost two hours–much longer than I expected! :-) 2333:I have some relevant experience here from taking 308:Also, for the record, the readable prose size of 706:? (I'm not, if that makes you feel any better.) 1790:On page 66, under the same heading, he writes: 3444:. Greenwood Publishing Group. 2002. pp. 54–55. 3330:sfn error: no target: CITEREFLeinWeizman2002 ( 3121:sfn error: no target: CITEREFLeinWeizman2002 ( 2150:Motivations for continuation of the occupation 696:Methods of Israeli occupation of the West Bank 234:Was discussed previously (a number of times). 1794:Later in that page, same heading, he writes: 806:hundreds of Jewish residents in recent times. 700:Impact of Israeli occupation of the West Bank 8: 3155:sfn error: no target: CITEREFGorenberg2007 ( 2797:sfn error: no target: CITEREFTiripelli2016 ( 1879:major aspect of the international dynamic. - 173:Language of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 3358: 3356: 3325: 3116: 2345:judgements. The key moments would include: 2155:Reasons for not relinquishing control over 103:Article trim per TOOLONG and MOS:LEADLENGTH 2145: 968: 662: 3304: 3302: 3285:"Memorandum for the Secretary of Defense" 3270:The United States and the State of Israel 3150: 2910:#Draft new section - bullet point outline 2792: 1215:Resolution of (N)POV dispute ahead of DYK 3401:sfn error: no target: CITEREFByman2011 ( 3232:Jewish and Israeli Law - An Introduction 3092: 3090: 2142:Draft new section - bullet point outline 1777:He then goes on to detail those methods. 18:Talk:Israeli occupation of the West Bank 3514:Ocupation and Israeli Security Concerns 3208: 3206: 3202: 3086: 2785: 1329:The article is certainly too long, but 3458: 3447: 3249: 3238: 2063:96 kB is not in violation of WP:TOOBIG 2019:96 kB is not in violation of WP:TOOBIG 690: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 3396: 3312:Israel, Jordan, and the Peace Process 3100:Israel, Jordan, and the Peace Process 2339:the article included a section called 566:beginninga at archive 35, 8 years ago 398:I retained most of the subject matter 312:is 96 kB. The readable prose size of 123:(the article should be under 50K per 7: 2960:The source that is taken from states 3584: 3508:Israeli security and the West Bank. 2873:Is this the basis for the proposed 2774:The following was rather inadequate 2588:Sources for specific 1967 decisions 1180:Ah, ok - makes sense. Thank you -- 441:Israeli occupation of the West Bank 3273:. Oxford University Press. p. 160. 2672:. University of California Press. 2368:Golan, EJ and Civil Administration 1804:configuration of Sinhala hegemony. 24: 1826:not mentioned by Pieterse at all. 1783:, Pieterse writes the following: 1490:. Not a random blog. Anyway, per 949:Occupation from Jordan during war 336:War in Afghanistan (2001–present) 2249:might have some input here, see 29: 3590:<ref group=lower-alpha: --> 1887:) 20:39, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 1779:On page 64, under the heading 1378:There seems to be an issue of 1: 3598:{{reflist|group=lower-alpha}} 3574:08:17, 24 February 2019 (UTC) 3547:04:46, 24 February 2019 (UTC) 3530:09:16, 23 February 2019 (UTC) 3078:13:46, 21 February 2019 (UTC) 2938:16:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC) 2922:11:11, 21 February 2019 (UTC) 2895:10:14, 21 February 2019 (UTC) 2861:08:20, 21 February 2019 (UTC) 2847:22:15, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2819:17:43, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2765:17:41, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2737:21:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2718:15:48, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2568:20:14, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2552:16:00, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2537:14:15, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2519:14:01, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2500:13:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC) 2483:14:29, 19 February 2019 (UTC) 2450:12:45, 19 February 2019 (UTC) 2422:12:34, 19 February 2019 (UTC) 2406:11:53, 19 February 2019 (UTC) 2320:09:19, 19 February 2019 (UTC) 2296:09:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC) 2278:07:24, 19 February 2019 (UTC) 2263:07:07, 19 February 2019 (UTC) 2238:06:29, 19 February 2019 (UTC) 2222:23:26, 18 February 2019 (UTC) 2205:20:47, 18 February 2019 (UTC) 2126:21:02, 12 February 2019 (UTC) 2111:20:32, 12 February 2019 (UTC) 2076:19:53, 12 February 2019 (UTC) 2056:18:50, 12 February 2019 (UTC) 2039:18:41, 12 February 2019 (UTC) 2008:17:38, 12 February 2019 (UTC) 1984:17:28, 12 February 2019 (UTC) 1781:The Export of Israeli Methods 889:claims regarding the size of 836:The article is long and some 3315:. Syracuse University Press. 3289:Journal of Palestine Studies 3103:. Syracuse University Press. 2626:. Univ of California Press. 1957:23:00, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 1943:22:13, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 1926:21:54, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 1909:21:39, 6 February 2019 (UTC) 1848:07:38, 5 February 2019 (UTC) 1819:01:10, 5 February 2019 (UTC) 1773:On page 60 Pieterse writes: 1769:21:50, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1743:21:12, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1724:20:37, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1704:20:30, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1689:20:26, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1663:20:15, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1648:18:10, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1611:18:16, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1596:18:07, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1577:18:04, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1549:17:22, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1520:15:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1505:16:55, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1482:10:58, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1446:10:47, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1434:09:58, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1364:16:51, 28 January 2019 (UTC) 1350:03:06, 28 January 2019 (UTC) 1321:12:19, 4 February 2019 (UTC) 1306:11:59, 4 February 2019 (UTC) 1291:16:42, 27 January 2019 (UTC) 1275:09:33, 27 January 2019 (UTC) 1259:03:36, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 1195:08:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC) 1176:01:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC) 1162:19:59, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1140:19:53, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1123:19:48, 3 February 2019 (UTC) 1105:10:53, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1085:10:35, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1064:10:16, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1039:09:58, 29 January 2019 (UTC) 1012:22:00, 31 January 2019 (UTC) 987:15:43, 31 January 2019 (UTC) 934:14:09, 27 January 2019 (UTC) 916:08:08, 27 January 2019 (UTC) 873:11:31, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 846:11:06, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 819:11:01, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 801:10:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 759:10:39, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 723:23:31, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 681:22:55, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 656:21:39, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 632:20:36, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 618:18:31, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 582:17:43, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 560:17:07, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 531:11:35, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 514:10:07, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 494:09:34, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 411:10:42, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 391:07:35, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 349:21:01, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 327:00:45, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 302:00:33, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 272:00:21, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 256:00:07, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 230:00:02, 26 January 2019 (UTC) 205:23:56, 25 January 2019 (UTC) 189:22:48, 25 January 2019 (UTC) 167:22:38, 25 January 2019 (UTC) 137:22:16, 25 January 2019 (UTC) 369:Again - this is Knowledge. 242:- your revert runs foul of 3625: 2947:Israel's Security Concerns 2606:. Henry Holt and Company. 3476:YONAH JEREMY BOB (2017). 3267:David Schoenbaum (1993). 1600:Im not wed to the image. 1333:is a guideline. DYK only 422:? These are the stats at 3363:Yaacov Lifshitz (2003). 2743:Tiripelli, by whom? etc. 2730:. Yale University Press. 2470:unsourced personal takes 2091:within reasonable limits 997:territory, not occupied 261:rationales. Get off it. 3386:. Routledge. pp. 23–25. 3326:Lein & Weizman 2002 3117:Lein & Weizman 2002 2727:The Bride and the Dowry 2692:. Vallentine Mitchell. 2686:Shlomo Aronson (2011). 2620:Gershon Shafir (2017). 1870:Worthy of consideration 960:, Israel occupied from 3309:Yehuda Lukacs (1999). 3097:Yehuda Lukacs (1999). 3064: 3034: 3023: 3005: 2970: 2957: 2945:'shooting for' in the 2782: 2458: 2251:User:Levivich/sandbox1 1889: 1231:, as DYK requires. At 958:during the six-day war 244:Knowledge:Article size 3491:Asher Susser (2012). 3480:. The Jerusalem Post. 3416:Joshua Sinai (1995). 3345:Shlomo Gazit (2003). 3213:Efraim Inbar (2007). 3136:Shlomo Gazit (2003). 3060: 3029: 3011: 2994: 2963: 2953: 2778: 2454: 2374:Negotiation red lines 2303:conditio sine qua non 1876: 1342:length requirement). 1229:neutral point of view 475:remove to other pages 42:of past discussions. 3551:What do you mean by 3349:. Routledge. p. 150. 3167: 3140:. Routledge. p. 150. 3013:Soon after the 1967 1731:arbiter elegantiarum 1019:Imprecise References 589:, you're wrong. See 3422:Middle East Journal 3380:Ami Gluska (2007). 3295:(2): 122–126. 1984. 3219:. Routledge. p. 92. 2669:Israel's Occupation 2335:Balfour Declaration 468:WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS 107:In accordance with 3604:template (see the 3457:Unknown parameter 3248:Unknown parameter 3173:Defensible Borders 2869:Defensible Borders 2666:(2 October 2008). 2350:1967 intransigence 773:you well know that 538:, you should read 2979:Auschwitz borders 2882:this 4kB addition 2875:Security Concerns 2698:978-0-85303-983-9 2678:978-0-520-94236-3 2655:978-1-59264-278-6 2632:978-0-520-29350-2 2612:978-1-4668-0054-0 2598:Gershom Gorenberg 2554: 2224: 2193: 2192: 2185:Demographic fears 2078: 2041: 1986: 1821: 1613: 1579: 1522: 1507: 1486:No, that is from 1374:Original Research 1293: 1169:journal's website 1014: 989: 973:comment added by 936: 761: 683: 667:comment added by 570:the whole article 501:four times larger 413: 329: 304: 274: 100: 99: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3616: 3611: 3610: 3609: 3603: 3599: 3595: 3591: 3499: 3498: 3488: 3482: 3481: 3473: 3467: 3466: 3460: 3455: 3453: 3445: 3436: 3430: 3429: 3413: 3407: 3406: 3394: 3388: 3387: 3377: 3371: 3370: 3360: 3351: 3350: 3342: 3336: 3335: 3323: 3317: 3316: 3306: 3297: 3296: 3281: 3275: 3274: 3264: 3258: 3257: 3251: 3246: 3244: 3236: 3227: 3221: 3220: 3210: 3196:Qassam 1 rockets 3161: 3160: 3148: 3142: 3141: 3133: 3127: 3126: 3114: 3105: 3104: 3094: 2987:Earle G. Wheeler 2982:Lebanon in 1982. 2845: 2830: 2803: 2802: 2790: 2731: 2724:Avi Raz (2012). 2702: 2682: 2659: 2636: 2616: 2600:(6 March 2007). 2547: 2542: 2437: 2389: 2276: 2248: 2217: 2212: 2146: 2071: 2066: 2034: 2029: 1979: 1974: 1841: 1838: 1814: 1809: 1762: 1759: 1717: 1714: 1682: 1679: 1641: 1638: 1606: 1601: 1572: 1567: 1542: 1539: 1510: 1500: 1495: 1475: 1472: 1427: 1424: 1286: 1281: 1188: 1185: 1155: 1152: 1098: 1095: 1057: 1054: 1032: 1029: 1007: 1002: 929: 924: 770: 754: 749: 721: 654: 616: 558: 406: 401: 322: 317: 297: 292: 267: 262: 241: 228: 165: 148: 121:is still bloated 78: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3624: 3623: 3619: 3618: 3617: 3615: 3614: 3613: 3601: 3597: 3593: 3589: 3587: 3585: 3503: 3502: 3490: 3489: 3485: 3475: 3474: 3470: 3456: 3446: 3438: 3437: 3433: 3415: 3414: 3410: 3400: 3395: 3391: 3379: 3378: 3374: 3362: 3361: 3354: 3344: 3343: 3339: 3329: 3324: 3320: 3308: 3307: 3300: 3283: 3282: 3278: 3266: 3265: 3261: 3247: 3237: 3229: 3228: 3224: 3212: 3211: 3204: 3170: 3165: 3164: 3154: 3149: 3145: 3135: 3134: 3130: 3120: 3115: 3108: 3096: 3095: 3088: 3049:Aziz Shehadah's 2871: 2841: 2824: 2807: 2806: 2796: 2791: 2787: 2745: 2723: 2699: 2685: 2679: 2664:Dr. Neve Gordon 2662: 2656: 2639: 2633: 2619: 2613: 2596: 2590: 2545: 2431: 2383: 2272: 2242: 2215: 2144: 2069: 2032: 1977: 1971: 1954: 1923: 1872: 1839: 1836: 1812: 1760: 1757: 1715: 1712: 1680: 1677: 1639: 1636: 1604: 1593: 1570: 1540: 1537: 1517: 1498: 1473: 1470: 1425: 1422: 1376: 1298:Graeme Bartlett 1284: 1267:Graeme Bartlett 1237:Graeme Bartlett 1217: 1186: 1183: 1153: 1150: 1128:At google books 1096: 1093: 1055: 1052: 1030: 1027: 1021: 1005: 951: 927: 764: 752: 714: 711: 647: 644: 609: 606: 551: 548: 404: 334:Compare indeed 320: 295: 265: 235: 221: 218: 158: 155: 142: 105: 74: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3622: 3620: 3583: 3581: 3580: 3579: 3578: 3577: 3576: 3561: 3557: 3501: 3500: 3497:. UPNE. p. 95. 3483: 3468: 3431: 3408: 3389: 3372: 3352: 3337: 3318: 3298: 3276: 3259: 3222: 3201: 3200: 3169: 3166: 3163: 3162: 3151:Gorenberg 2007 3143: 3128: 3106: 3085: 3084: 3083: 3082: 3081: 3080: 3065: 3058: 3057: 3056: 3035: 3027: 3024: 3009: 3006: 2992: 2991: 2990: 2983: 2971: 2961: 2958: 2951: 2942: 2941: 2940: 2870: 2867: 2866: 2865: 2864: 2863: 2805: 2804: 2793:Tiripelli 2016 2784: 2783: 2768: 2767: 2744: 2741: 2740: 2739: 2704: 2703: 2697: 2683: 2677: 2660: 2654: 2649:. Toby Press. 2637: 2631: 2617: 2611: 2589: 2586: 2585: 2584: 2583: 2582: 2581: 2580: 2579: 2578: 2577: 2576: 2575: 2574: 2573: 2572: 2571: 2570: 2466: 2459: 2439: 2427: 2378: 2377: 2371: 2365: 2359: 2353: 2331: 2330: 2329: 2328: 2327: 2326: 2325: 2324: 2323: 2322: 2298: 2191: 2190: 2189: 2188: 2187: 2186: 2180: 2179: 2178: 2174:the territory 2168: 2167: 2166: 2163: 2152: 2143: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2137: 2136: 2135: 2134: 2133: 2132: 2131: 2130: 2129: 2128: 2095:Detroit Tigers 1970: 1967: 1966: 1965: 1964: 1963: 1962: 1961: 1960: 1959: 1950: 1919: 1871: 1868: 1867: 1866: 1865: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1861: 1860: 1859: 1858: 1857: 1856: 1855: 1854: 1853: 1852: 1851: 1850: 1831: 1827: 1751: 1748:USER:Nishidani 1671: 1668:USER:Nishidani 1631:USER:Nishidani 1628: 1627: 1626: 1625: 1624: 1623: 1622: 1621: 1620: 1619: 1618: 1617: 1616: 1615: 1614: 1589: 1532: 1531: 1530: 1513: 1508: 1451: 1450: 1449: 1448: 1413: 1412: 1408: 1405: 1401: 1375: 1372: 1371: 1370: 1369: 1368: 1367: 1366: 1327: 1326: 1325: 1324: 1323: 1216: 1213: 1212: 1211: 1210: 1209: 1208: 1207: 1206: 1205: 1204: 1203: 1202: 1201: 1200: 1199: 1198: 1197: 1074:Social Justice 1067: 1066: 1020: 1017: 1016: 1015: 950: 947: 946: 945: 944: 943: 942: 941: 940: 939: 938: 937: 834: 833: 832: 831: 830: 829: 828: 827: 826: 825: 824: 823: 822: 821: 790: 787: 776: 741: 740: 739: 738: 737: 736: 735: 734: 733: 732: 731: 730: 729: 728: 727: 726: 725: 709: 642: 604: 546: 479: 471: 451: 450: 449: 448: 447: 446: 445: 444: 431: 430: 429: 428: 427: 426: 416: 415: 414: 379:WP:NOTTEXTBOOK 367: 353: 352: 351: 288: 287: 286: 285: 284: 283: 282: 281: 280: 279: 278: 277: 276: 275: 216: 153: 113:MOS:LEADLENGTH 104: 101: 98: 97: 92: 89: 84: 79: 72: 67: 62: 52: 51: 34: 23: 15: 14: 13: 10: 9: 6: 4: 3: 2: 3621: 3612: 3607: 3575: 3571: 3567: 3562: 3558: 3554: 3550: 3549: 3548: 3544: 3540: 3536: 3535: 3534: 3533: 3532: 3531: 3527: 3523: 3517: 3515: 3510: 3509: 3496: 3495: 3487: 3484: 3479: 3472: 3469: 3464: 3451: 3443: 3442: 3435: 3432: 3428:(4): 629–644. 3427: 3423: 3419: 3412: 3409: 3404: 3398: 3393: 3390: 3385: 3384: 3376: 3373: 3368: 3367: 3359: 3357: 3353: 3348: 3341: 3338: 3333: 3327: 3322: 3319: 3314: 3313: 3305: 3303: 3299: 3294: 3290: 3286: 3280: 3277: 3272: 3271: 3263: 3260: 3255: 3242: 3234: 3233: 3226: 3223: 3218: 3217: 3209: 3207: 3203: 3199: 3197: 3191: 3187: 3185: 3182:produced the 3181: 3175: 3174: 3168:Jonney's text 3158: 3152: 3147: 3144: 3139: 3132: 3129: 3124: 3118: 3113: 3111: 3107: 3102: 3101: 3093: 3091: 3087: 3079: 3075: 3071: 3066: 3063: 3059: 3053: 3052: 3050: 3047:was accorded 3046: 3041: 3036: 3033: 3028: 3025: 3022: 3020: 3017:produced the 3016: 3010: 3007: 3004: 3002: 2999:produced the 2998: 2993: 2988: 2984: 2980: 2976: 2975: 2972: 2969: 2967: 2962: 2959: 2956: 2952: 2948: 2943: 2939: 2935: 2931: 2927: 2926: 2925: 2924: 2923: 2919: 2915: 2911: 2907: 2903: 2899: 2898: 2897: 2896: 2892: 2888: 2883: 2878: 2876: 2868: 2862: 2858: 2854: 2850: 2849: 2848: 2844: 2840: 2835: 2828: 2823: 2822: 2821: 2820: 2816: 2812: 2800: 2794: 2789: 2786: 2781: 2777: 2775: 2771: 2766: 2762: 2758: 2753: 2750: 2749: 2748: 2742: 2738: 2735: 2729: 2728: 2722: 2721: 2720: 2719: 2715: 2711: 2707: 2700: 2695: 2691: 2690: 2684: 2680: 2675: 2671: 2670: 2665: 2661: 2657: 2652: 2648: 2647: 2642: 2638: 2634: 2629: 2625: 2624: 2618: 2614: 2609: 2605: 2604: 2599: 2595: 2594: 2593: 2587: 2569: 2565: 2561: 2556: 2555: 2553: 2549: 2548: 2540: 2539: 2538: 2534: 2530: 2526: 2522: 2521: 2520: 2516: 2512: 2508: 2503: 2502: 2501: 2497: 2493: 2489: 2486: 2485: 2484: 2480: 2476: 2471: 2467: 2464: 2460: 2457: 2453: 2452: 2451: 2447: 2443: 2440: 2435: 2428: 2425: 2424: 2423: 2419: 2415: 2410: 2409: 2408: 2407: 2403: 2399: 2395: 2391: 2387: 2381: 2375: 2372: 2369: 2366: 2363: 2360: 2357: 2356:Military rule 2354: 2351: 2348: 2347: 2346: 2342: 2340: 2336: 2321: 2317: 2313: 2309: 2304: 2299: 2297: 2293: 2289: 2285: 2284:Johan Galtung 2281: 2280: 2279: 2275: 2271: 2266: 2265: 2264: 2260: 2256: 2252: 2246: 2241: 2240: 2239: 2235: 2231: 2226: 2225: 2223: 2219: 2218: 2209: 2208: 2207: 2206: 2202: 2198: 2184: 2183: 2181: 2176: 2175: 2173: 2169: 2164: 2161: 2160: 2158: 2154: 2153: 2151: 2148: 2147: 2141: 2127: 2123: 2119: 2114: 2113: 2112: 2108: 2104: 2100: 2096: 2092: 2088: 2084: 2080: 2079: 2077: 2073: 2072: 2064: 2059: 2058: 2057: 2053: 2049: 2044: 2043: 2042: 2040: 2036: 2035: 2027: 2020: 2015: 2011: 2010: 2009: 2005: 2001: 1997: 1993: 1989: 1988: 1987: 1985: 1981: 1980: 1968: 1958: 1955: 1953: 1946: 1945: 1944: 1940: 1936: 1931: 1930: 1929: 1928: 1927: 1924: 1922: 1916: 1913: 1912: 1911: 1910: 1906: 1902: 1897: 1893: 1888: 1886: 1882: 1875: 1869: 1849: 1846: 1843: 1842: 1832: 1828: 1824: 1823: 1822: 1820: 1816: 1815: 1806: 1805: 1799: 1798: 1793: 1788: 1787: 1782: 1776: 1772: 1771: 1770: 1767: 1764: 1763: 1752: 1749: 1746: 1745: 1744: 1740: 1736: 1732: 1727: 1726: 1725: 1722: 1719: 1718: 1707: 1706: 1705: 1701: 1697: 1692: 1691: 1690: 1687: 1684: 1683: 1672: 1669: 1666: 1665: 1664: 1660: 1656: 1651: 1650: 1649: 1646: 1643: 1642: 1632: 1629: 1612: 1608: 1607: 1599: 1598: 1597: 1594: 1592: 1586: 1581: 1580: 1578: 1574: 1573: 1565: 1560: 1555: 1552: 1551: 1550: 1547: 1544: 1543: 1533: 1528: 1527: 1524: 1523: 1521: 1518: 1516: 1509: 1506: 1502: 1501: 1493: 1489: 1485: 1484: 1483: 1480: 1477: 1476: 1466: 1462: 1457: 1456: 1455: 1454: 1453: 1452: 1447: 1444: 1440: 1439: 1438: 1437: 1436: 1435: 1432: 1429: 1428: 1417: 1409: 1406: 1402: 1398: 1397: 1396: 1392: 1388: 1386: 1381: 1373: 1365: 1361: 1357: 1353: 1352: 1351: 1348: 1345: 1341: 1336: 1332: 1328: 1322: 1318: 1314: 1309: 1308: 1307: 1303: 1299: 1295: 1294: 1292: 1288: 1287: 1278: 1277: 1276: 1272: 1268: 1263: 1262: 1261: 1260: 1257: 1254: 1250: 1246: 1242: 1238: 1234: 1230: 1226: 1222: 1214: 1196: 1193: 1190: 1189: 1179: 1178: 1177: 1174: 1170: 1165: 1164: 1163: 1160: 1157: 1156: 1146: 1143: 1142: 1141: 1137: 1133: 1129: 1126: 1125: 1124: 1120: 1116: 1112: 1111:given by Zero 1108: 1107: 1106: 1103: 1100: 1099: 1088: 1087: 1086: 1083: 1079: 1075: 1071: 1070: 1069: 1068: 1065: 1062: 1059: 1058: 1048: 1043: 1042: 1041: 1040: 1037: 1034: 1033: 1018: 1013: 1009: 1008: 1000: 996: 992: 991: 990: 988: 984: 980: 976: 972: 965: 963: 959: 954: 948: 935: 931: 930: 921: 920: 919: 918: 917: 913: 909: 905: 900: 896: 892: 888: 884: 880: 876: 875: 874: 870: 866: 861: 857: 852: 851: 850: 849: 848: 847: 844: 839: 820: 816: 812: 808: 804: 803: 802: 798: 794: 791: 788: 785: 781: 777: 774: 768: 763: 762: 760: 756: 755: 747: 742: 724: 720: 717: 713: 712: 705: 701: 697: 692: 688: 685: 684: 682: 678: 674: 670: 666: 659: 658: 657: 653: 650: 646: 645: 638: 635: 634: 633: 629: 625: 621: 620: 619: 615: 612: 608: 607: 600: 596: 592: 588: 585: 584: 583: 579: 575: 571: 567: 563: 562: 561: 557: 554: 550: 549: 541: 537: 534: 533: 532: 528: 524: 519: 518: 517: 516: 515: 511: 507: 502: 497: 496: 495: 491: 487: 483: 480: 476: 472: 469: 464: 463: 462: 461: 460: 459: 458: 456: 442: 439: 438: 437: 436: 435: 434: 433: 432: 425: 421: 417: 412: 408: 407: 399: 396: 395: 394: 393: 392: 388: 384: 380: 376: 372: 368: 364: 359: 354: 350: 346: 342: 337: 333: 332: 331: 330: 328: 324: 323: 315: 311: 307: 306: 305: 303: 299: 298: 273: 269: 268: 259: 258: 257: 253: 249: 245: 239: 233: 232: 231: 227: 224: 220: 219: 212: 208: 207: 206: 202: 198: 194: 193: 192: 191: 190: 186: 182: 178: 174: 170: 169: 168: 164: 161: 157: 156: 146: 141: 140: 139: 138: 134: 130: 126: 122: 118: 114: 110: 102: 96: 93: 90: 88: 85: 83: 80: 77: 73: 71: 68: 66: 63: 61: 58: 57: 49: 45: 41: 40: 35: 28: 27: 19: 3602:{{notelist}} 3600:template or 3586:Cite error: 3582: 3552: 3518: 3511: 3507: 3504: 3493: 3486: 3471: 3440: 3434: 3425: 3421: 3411: 3392: 3382: 3375: 3365: 3346: 3340: 3328:, pp. 12–13. 3321: 3311: 3292: 3288: 3279: 3269: 3262: 3231: 3225: 3215: 3192: 3188: 3176: 3172: 3171: 3153:, pp. 81–83. 3146: 3137: 3131: 3119:, pp. 12–13. 3099: 3061: 3040:Shlomo Gazit 3030: 3012: 2995: 2978: 2977:Abba Eban's 2965: 2964: 2954: 2946: 2879: 2874: 2872: 2834:weasel words 2808: 2788: 2779: 2772: 2769: 2746: 2726: 2710:Onceinawhile 2708: 2705: 2688: 2668: 2645: 2641:Yehuda Avner 2622: 2602: 2591: 2543: 2524: 2506: 2469: 2455: 2442:Onceinawhile 2398:Onceinawhile 2396: 2392: 2382: 2379: 2373: 2367: 2361: 2355: 2349: 2343: 2332: 2307: 2302: 2230:Onceinawhile 2213: 2197:Onceinawhile 2194: 2171: 2156: 2149: 2090: 2086: 2067: 2030: 2022: 1975: 1972: 1949: 1918: 1898: 1894: 1890: 1877: 1873: 1835: 1810: 1807: 1802: 1800: 1795: 1791: 1789: 1784: 1780: 1778: 1774: 1756: 1730: 1711: 1676: 1635: 1602: 1588: 1568: 1563: 1536: 1512: 1496: 1469: 1421: 1418: 1414: 1395:something): 1393: 1389: 1377: 1339: 1282: 1245:TracyMcClark 1233:Onceinawhile 1218: 1182: 1149: 1092: 1051: 1026: 1022: 1003: 998: 994: 969:— Preceding 966: 961: 957: 955: 952: 925: 837: 835: 793:Onceinawhile 783: 779: 750: 708: 663:— Preceding 641: 603: 598: 569: 545: 500: 474: 452: 402: 397: 363:WP:OWNership 357: 318: 293: 289: 263: 215: 152: 120: 106: 75: 43: 37: 3180:Yigal Allon 3015:Yigal Allon 2997:Yigal Allon 2014:WP:SIZERULE 1992:WP:SIZERULE 1786:assistance. 1729:meticulous 1249:Greyshark09 1001:territory. 995:Palestinian 540:Talk:Israel 375:WP:NOTESSAY 314:World War I 125:WP:SIZERULE 36:This is an 3588:There are 3539:Jonney2000 3397:Byman 2011 3184:Allon Plan 3055:technology 3019:Allon Plan 3001:Allon Plan 2966:After 1967 2906:WP:CITEVAR 2747:Levivich 2362:Allon Plan 2159:territory 1797:Nicaragua. 1492:MOS:IMAGES 1465:WP:NEUTRAL 1331:WP:TOOLONG 1241:Sir Joseph 1221:nomination 860:WP:TOOLONG 856:WP:TOOLONG 786:situation. 784:unbalanced 424:Long pages 371:WP:NOTSOAP 358:four times 109:WP:TOOLONG 3606:help page 3566:Nishidani 3522:Nishidani 3461:ignored ( 3459:|authors= 3450:cite book 3399:, p. 349. 3252:ignored ( 3250:|authors= 3241:cite book 3070:Nishidani 3045:mokusatsu 2930:Nishidani 2887:Nishidani 2880:I gather 2853:Nishidani 2827:Nishidani 2811:Nishidani 2770:Nableezy 2757:Nishidani 2560:Nishidani 2529:Nishidani 2492:Nishidani 2475:Nishidani 2312:Nishidani 2288:Nishidani 2157:the whole 2118:Nishidani 2103:Nishidani 2046:endnotes. 1969:size pt 2 1935:Nishidani 1915:Nishidani 1901:Nishidani 1735:Nishidani 1696:Nishidani 1655:Nishidani 1385:synthesis 1356:Nishidani 1313:Nishidani 1132:Nishidani 1115:Nishidani 1047:WP:SOURCE 999:Jordanian 975:כותבערכים 895:WP:TOOBIG 883:WP:OWNish 865:Nishidani 687:Nishidani 669:Nishidani 637:Nishidani 624:Nishidani 587:Nishidani 574:Nishidani 536:Nishidani 523:Nishidani 486:Nishidani 482:This edit 366:readable. 341:Nishidani 95:Archive 9 87:Archive 6 82:Archive 5 76:Archive 4 70:Archive 3 65:Archive 2 60:Archive 1 3592:tags or 2877:section 2795:, p. 24. 2643:(2010). 2546:nableezy 2525:en masse 2488:Per this 2245:Levivich 2216:nableezy 2099:Hinduism 2070:nableezy 2033:nableezy 1978:nableezy 1813:nableezy 1605:nableezy 1571:nableezy 1554:WP:BLOGS 1499:nableezy 1488:B'tselem 1461:WP:BLOGS 1344:Lagrange 1335:requires 1285:nableezy 1253:Lagrange 1006:nableezy 983:contribs 971:unsigned 928:nableezy 838:balanced 753:nableezy 677:contribs 665:unsigned 405:nableezy 321:nableezy 296:nableezy 266:nableezy 3594:{{efn}} 2511:Icewhiz 2434:Icewhiz 2414:Icewhiz 2386:Icewhiz 2255:Icewhiz 2048:Icewhiz 2000:Icewhiz 1996:WP:NPOV 1881:Darouet 1340:minimum 908:Icewhiz 879:WP:BOLD 811:Icewhiz 780:balance 767:Icewhiz 746:WP:SIZE 506:Icewhiz 383:Icewhiz 248:Icewhiz 181:Icewhiz 145:Icewhiz 129:Icewhiz 117:trimmed 39:archive 2914:NSH001 2228:same. 2172:any of 2083:Israel 2024:well, 1845:(talk) 1766:(talk) 1721:(talk) 1686:(talk) 1645:(talk) 1546:(talk) 1479:(talk) 1431:(talk) 1192:(talk) 1159:(talk) 1102:(talk) 1061:(talk) 1036:(talk) 962:Jordan 904:Israel 899:Israel 891:Israel 887:WP:OSE 704:Levite 455:Israel 420:Israel 310:Israel 238:Huldra 211:Huldra 197:Huldra 3520:that. 3032:offer 2839:Leviv 2752:These 2270:Leviv 1840:COBOL 1761:COBOL 1716:COBOL 1681:COBOL 1640:COBOL 1541:COBOL 1474:COBOL 1426:COBOL 1380:WP:OR 1187:COBOL 1154:COBOL 1097:COBOL 1056:COBOL 1049:? -- 1031:COBOL 504:four. 453:‎:::* 175:, or 115:I've 16:< 3570:talk 3543:talk 3526:talk 3463:help 3403:help 3332:help 3254:help 3157:help 3123:help 3074:talk 2934:talk 2918:talk 2891:talk 2857:talk 2815:talk 2799:help 2761:talk 2734:Zero 2714:talk 2694:ISBN 2674:ISBN 2651:ISBN 2628:ISBN 2608:ISBN 2564:talk 2533:talk 2515:talk 2507:crap 2496:talk 2479:talk 2446:talk 2418:talk 2402:talk 2316:talk 2292:talk 2259:talk 2234:talk 2201:talk 2122:talk 2116:(b). 2107:talk 2097:and 2052:talk 2026:this 2004:talk 1939:talk 1905:talk 1885:talk 1739:talk 1700:talk 1659:talk 1559:here 1443:Zero 1360:talk 1317:talk 1302:talk 1271:talk 1223:for 1173:Zero 1136:talk 1119:talk 1082:Zero 1078:here 979:talk 912:talk 869:talk 843:Zero 815:talk 797:talk 698:and 673:talk 628:talk 599:both 595:here 591:here 578:talk 527:talk 510:talk 490:talk 457:‎ 387:talk 345:talk 252:talk 201:talk 185:talk 133:talk 111:and 2843:ich 2274:ich 1952:ich 1921:ich 1591:ich 1515:ich 1347:613 1256:613 1225:DYK 710:ich 643:ich 605:ich 547:ich 217:ich 154:ich 3608:). 3572:) 3553:my 3545:) 3528:) 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