Talk:Ivan Gundulić

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identity theft of one or another. You both seem to have very negative or cynical views on this. Mangar I iften see you automatically claim the Croats are Croatizing figures even though many of these figures are of Slavic or Italo-Slavic background when the Croatian nationality was coming into play. None of us are purely one genetic background. Identity is a created thing. There are Croats of Magyar ancestry and Hugarians of Croat ancestry for example. See “Skorosh” Hunagrian like Croatian surname in Croatia or “Horvat” Croat based Hungarian Surname in Hungary. SerVasi, please stop with the edit waring and erasing of Gandolic’s Ragusan/Dubrovnicki Italian/Croatian names. Ragusia was heavily Italian influenced and built as well. That joint culture should be a celebrated pount not a negative one. /end rant. Cheers.

1078:::: And mind you the Serbian Knowledge with a number of articles based on revisionism seems absolutely plagued with similar nationalistic issues as Croatian Knowledge. And I could say some of your edits and behavior seem more aligned with the attitudes there. As do some Croatian centric editors here with edit warring. But you don’t seem very neutral in your edits at times and I think you are aware. We all have viewpoints but should let that influence the reading public. I say this all to you and the other (probably Croatian) editor who keeps edit waring and PoV pushing. English Wiki is supposed to be the balanced version, not the Serbian/Croatian nationalism version of history. Both those respective wikis annoy me greatly with their alt-history. And those who try to correct them are outnumbered by pov pushers. 759:". I think that what user Sadko is doing, and that is removing content sourced by Encyclopedia Britannica, is a bold move and that anyone who does something like that should make a strong case defending his actions. I would say that the problem partly starts with the Ethnicity section, but I would like to hear what others have to say. I must also add that user Sadko insist on a discussion but only when the lead of the article contains that Ivan Gundulić was a Croatian poet, but when it is removed, somehow, it seems to me, that the need for a discussion ends, at least one the side of user Sadko. I might be wrong, but that is the impression that I got. 3126:

suggestions, especially the first one actually support anarchy. How could I be for any other suggestion when Francesco Petrarca and Marco Polo are Italians and Italy does not exist in their time. We must not enter into anarchy, if we enter into anarchy then we must change Francesco Petrarca, Marco Polo Italian fact. Those editors who are against your proposal will certainly not speak like that in Francesco Petrarca and Marco Polo etc case, if they wanted to change something they would changed it long time ago. Croatia is a small country and of course we're not equal, but I think that wikipedia articles must show as right direction no matter what.

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guess/hope. Basically I put a mirror in front of you and if that insulted you then I am sorry and please forgive me. So you say that comparing Dubrovnik to Florence is a logical mistake? How is it a logical mistake, please explain. Now you make a logical mistake, you say that if some artwork was not made by a Serb then it can't be part of Serbian art. Someones ethnicity is not a condition nor an obstacle for someone to participate and contribute his work and labor to any nation or its heritage. If you are trying to compare Subotica to Dubrovnik then please you need to explain more. Maybe buildings are not a good analogy though. --

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Croatian considering that numerous serious sources such as the Britannica Encyclopedia display him as a Croat. Furthermore, remembering the pictures of Dubrovnik‘s destroyed old town, while being bombarded by Serbian-Montegrin forces in the 1990ties, should make clear that any other label other than Croatian is not only false but disrespectful to the citizens of Dubrovnik and Croatia overall. Mentioning that Serbian academics claim him 25 years after should clearly indicate the cruelty and lack of character of those people.

2989:" otherwise we enter anarchy. I don't know how much you understand the situation, Marco Polo (/ˈmɑːrkoʊ ˈpoʊloʊ/ (About this soundlisten), Venetian: , Italian: , 1254 – January 8–9, 1324) was an Italian merchant... do you understand now? There is no other than having the same principle. It has to be first basis in your decision, or let's change Marco Polo article together. We are all here to work together for the benefit of wikipedia, the rules must be the same and we must implement them equally in the articles. 491: 511: 962:, which is informative and correct) was included into lede before, who removed it and why is beyond reason - it's tiresome to discuss on these things and in emotionally charged environment with irrational thinking taking the front stage, where editors see their role here as some sort of patriotic duty, a moral imperative and obligation to, as some said, the "ancestors", or others, to the "future generations", and so forth.-- 317: 296: 3285:

Serbs (Orthodox populations to be more precise). Vuks'd ictionary is full of words from older Croatian dictionaries, words collected in Croatia, swear words (original Serb vocabulary) and loanwords from Turkish, Greek, German, Hungarian, Italian, that is the base of modern Serbian language. To add most of scientist used racist theories that were considered facts at that time, and now are completely pseudoscientific.--

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please no more bad faith. The one that has started this discussion and the reason why there is a discussion are you. You have removed sourced content from the lead, then insisted that it should stay removed even though other users have reverted you, and you insisted that there needs to be a discussion. Again, please, no more bad faith. Thanks. And I would like to see what other users have to say. --

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them: Ceca, Karleuša, Seka Aleksić... I will be civil, and politely ask you to remove yourself from Croatia-related articles because you are constantly playing victim and use no arguments in discussions. Thank you. (and I expect you will once again victimize yourself, to be clear, I have nothing agint you nor Serbs, but obvious double standards and hypocrisy is unacceptable.)--

2206: 2927:). His writings are thus interpretable to any of those peoples, including also Bosnians and Montenegrins, and it is not absurd to say he influenced also Bosnian or Serbian writers, while it appears supported by sources to say he has a special place specifically in Croatian literature. Either "Ragusan" or "Proposal 3" are therefore the options that seem most NPOV to me. -- 2274:(questionable term without article, as we can see) as it is very clearly stated later that he is "from the Republic of Ragusa, (now in Croatia)", So, we do not need and further political claims based on the fact that more then 300 years later Republic of Ragusa is part of modern day Croatia. Also, less is more in this case, as that is the only proper way to follow 2068: 2466:. I could bring more examples. There is no ongoing plot here, as you would like to imply, please. Show good faith and respect basic guidlines, please. Vreme is one of the best magazines in the Balkans probably, and most of other portals are just fine, there are no blogs used. I accept your critique that even better sources are needed, and I shall try my best 3427: 2180: 786:(because we are talking about the lead), as Wiki policies are saying another thing. I am not inssisting on anything, just going by the book, regardless of my personal feelings. If I was acctually biased I would call him Serbian poet, which is not per Wiki guidelines and policies. Your impressions are not arguments and everything written upon some 981:(or any other for that matter). When somebody states this they usually get a bunch of labels and insults in return. Nonetheless, Ragusan literature is - Ragusan literature (that is 100% rational and makes logical sense). Their heritage is today celebrated in 2-3 countries, and there can be no exclusivity, which is not per NPOV to begin with. 2788:. Proposal 3 introduces a completely new and unsourced thesis, which is not compatible with the current discussion at all. Please withdraw the confusing extra proposals and let the RfC run its course. If you want to raise another RfC, so be it, but changing the RfC question while it is running is the worst possible solution. -- 944:

Serb playground-like smear fest. We are all adults here (I assume) so seeing insults like “Serbian chauvinist” or “you state education lied to you” or “nazi” on this talk page are beneath civil discussions and just name calling. Just because we may not all agree and have our biases doesn’t mean we have to hate each other.

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from other Baroque in anything but language, it has to be the second interpretation. This leaves us with the problem of interpretation of the label "Croatian". In the 17th century it cannot be nationality. Neither can it be ethnicity if Gundulić described himself as a Slav, and ethnicity should not be in the lede anyway.

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to his alleged belonging to Serbian literature. Zero, none. That is a fringe theory that is given an undue weight in the "Ethnicity" section of the article. An overwhelming number of reliable sources say otherwise, no matter what an interview in a political magazine or a late 19th/early 20th century historian say.

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affiliation, and a selective and inconsistent invoking of Wikipedias guidelines. In your case Sadko, they are almost exclusively attempted on Croatian articles in other cases, with a random reasoning depending on what suits best. Also, there are zero English language, peer-reviewed sources that point

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you have been trying to remove the "Croatian" label from dozens and dozens of pre-late 20th century articles (not just related to Dubrovnik), with the same rationale as on this one, and apparently you have no plan on stopping that no matter what, it is important to draw an attention to that so others

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A number of sources call Gundulić Ragusan - which is a basic fact, while everything else is misleading and ignoring NPOV. His cousins have also been described as Ragusans In which national literature is he celebrated and considered a part of is covered properly, in lead and article body both. This is

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I think there is too much conflicting sourcing to state him as just “Croatian Baroque Poet” unless the sourcing is overwhelming in support. I agree with Sadko that the lead should not be changed for now however ethnicity can be mentioned as long as it is not in the first sentence. Again need a lot of

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It seems that you are a child, because you are constantly demonstrating childlish behaviour such as making victim out of yourself. Instead of Gundulić's Himna Slobodi, for which you so eagerly want not to be a Croat, I politely suggest you to put some verse from real Serbian poets, you have plenty of

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Sadko, why are you so concentrated on removing ethnicities in lead of Croatia-related articles, while it is OK to be in the first sentence that Nikola Tesla is Serbian-American? Clear double standards. First remove all ethnicities regarding Serbs, or Croats that you managed to Serbianize, and then we

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Sadko you realize you first insulted and made assumptions about another user’s faulty learning experience from the Croatian education system right? Seems like a smear on multiple levels. Of Croatia education system and assumptions about the user. Claiming one belong on nationalist Croatian or Serbian

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I'm pointing out that this, rather than an argument about Gundulic, this actually may be a (good) argument that Marco Polo's ethnicity needs to be removed from the lead of his page... this is not even some fringe view, it is inherent to a political project that is capable of winning elections in the

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includes the standard forms of four different language standards in the Balkans, including both Croatian and Serbian. When we speak of English literature, that also includes literature from Canada, the US, Australia as well as that written in English from non-Anglophone countries (...and, literature

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Twenty sources in English language, from authors or encyclopaedias that are not related to this area, say that Gundulić and his work are a part of Croatian literature or explicitly say that he is a Croatian poet. I could probably find a lot more, but this is enough for now. That is what the majority

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It is not a pretext, and the way you formulated seems like an open invitation to "fix their wrongdoings". We do not copy the sources directly like you suggest, and most certeainly not for the lead. Please cooperate with other editors. We did not have a deal, but a debate, as we are mostly not on the

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Please be civil and start behaving like an adult (I will be free to suppose that you are one): pointing fingers, calling out names, claiming that there is an ongoing plot, making wild claims etc. It is not helping. Go to the TP of the article (Archive) and you will see that 10+ editors supported and

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Try to notify WikiProject Serbia, WikiProject Croatia, WikiProject Literature and other related projects, and only then we can have a discussion. I could do it for you, but I am not the one to start this discussion. I will also tell you that there have been several discussion on this matter and that

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I do not understand what you're trying to say? This is wikipedia and rules apply equally. What I or some other editor on wikipedia have to do with "Padanian nationalism", "separate people from Italians"? Knowledge is not a set of beautiful wishes. Bunjevci are considered as ethnic Croatians but on

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You have started this RfC with 2 options, and now, in the same pagragraph we have some sort of sub-RfC? Those three options are pretty much all the same - therefore - it is a fake RfC and more of a trick, made in order to push one's POV. That is a case of abuse of RfC, which is not something to be

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has been teaching Ragusan literature as an integral part of Serbian literature almost a century ago. Once again, please, stop pointing fingers at fellow editors and cooperate. Nobody is proving that he is a part of any literature, we are editing an encyclopedia, and if a person's work is celebrated

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And there is a list of sources presenting him as a Serb, it's in the archive, or stating that he is of Serb origin. I agree, neither should be in the lead; Gundulić held Ragusan identity and tens of sources are confirming it and calling him Ragusan (I have posted a bunch of them in earlier versions

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No, it should not, and this was discussed and debated over and over for ~10 years. You can find ~30 sources on this very page calling him Serbs or Serbian. Nikola Tesla can not be given as an example as the current version of the lead was ruled out after months and months of debate. Alighieri had a

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I agree with removing the „Ethnicity“ section. However, I ask myself how is it possible that people with a history of disruptive behavior towards a nation get the ability to even discuss and edit such articles. Nonetheless, following the Knowledge rules the Nationality should be clear displayed as

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Vuk's works are pseudoscientific, he had no formal education and by defifition was nationalistic folk linguist. There is nothing ironic about Croats using standards from areas populated by Croats (Dubrovnik, Slavonia, Lika, Hercegovina) which never were part of Serbia, nor populated by majority of

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to the original proposal. The construction "Croatian Baroque poet" is actually semantically ambiguous. It could mean a poet that writes in a "Croatian Baroque" style, or it could mean a "Baroque poet" who is Croatian. But since there is no specific Croatian Baroque style that differs significantly

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cover, with a Yugoslav first-day-of-issue stamp pre-Croatian independence lists Gundulic (and his entire family) as the "largest Croatian literary family" (on the left, printed vertically). Since FDCs were approved by the state of Yugoslavia at the time, which encompassed Serbia and Croatia, it is

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User Sadko, we live in the 21st century, Dubrovnik is a city in Croatia. Like Florence is part of Italy. I can't understand how you don't see this. Do you think that it is state propaganda, stating that Dubrovnik is a Croatian city? It seems that when you were telling others about "state education

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I’m not that well read on Ivan Gandulić so I can’t say for certain. There is a good chance he is Croatian but there are also sources pointing to Serbian lineage. So hard to say completely. Again from my limited quick look. But what I am certain of is I’m not interested in being part of a Croat vs

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was somehow missed. Also, what will we do with all these sources describing Gundulić as a Croatian Baroque poet? I didn't even know that there were so many of them, I was surprised when I did a rather quick Google Books search. Is a mere mention in the bottom of the article that some describe him

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is a city in Serbia but not all of Subotica's lovely Art nouveau building were built by Serbs and those works of art represent shared heritage. Stop commenting on other users as you have no idea where I started or finished my education. This is not notorious Croatian Knowledge, where that kind of

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I have pinged all the users that have participated in the discussion above. Your argument is done in bad faith. Once again, you are basically saying: "I am right and you are wrong". This is not how a discussion should proceed. Please, if you assert something then please provide some evidence. And

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was not a British poet etc, therefore while there may be sound reasons why Dante is best described as Italian, one cannot automatically transfer that logic to all situations, and if describing Dante as Italian led to ambiguity or confusion, or was disputed, it would be better to describe him as

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Guys enough! Why can’t we have both?? I am tired of the attempts to Italianizr or Croatize figures relevant to both cultures. Italian premiers regard Croatia as the mist Italianesq country therefore closest in communality. Use this as an opportunity to show that friendship. Not to see it as a

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I also agree with Sadko that the new "proposals" are confusing the whole matter. Proposal 1 is the same as the main question of the RfC. Proposal 2 is exactly the same, apart from the "small" matter that the term "Croatian Baroque period" is rather dubious. A better formulation would be "Ivan

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Well the 10 years of debates obviously didn't settle the issue when, if you look through the history of the page, there was never a stable version of the article. And I've yet to see those 30 sources. The other ones are right here, under the "Comments". And no, komunikacija.org.rs, vreme.com,

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I am permanently blocked on Croatian Knowledge so please don't insult me. I hope that was not your intention. What I did was that I tried to give you a "hand of peace" and tried to show you that, in a way, you are doing practically the some thing what "they" do/are doing. Not intentionally, I

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You gave an example (Francesco Petrarca), here is Marco Polo article etc. This must be our examples and for this article. We have to look at examples from wikipedia and apply it in all articles equally, everything else is anarchy. Editors who think differently that is, they don't like your

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What wikipedia rules say about that? If we respect sources then he is Croatian Baroque Poet. If we respect time in which he lives then I dont know what should be right. Maybe wikipedia rules have answer for that? I'm here to follow the rules. For Nikola Tesla I exposed 20 sources that he is

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Reminder that this is English WP and exists primarily as a source of information for English speakers, who tend to be woefully ignorant of anything East of the Alps, one aspect of this is they will not know whether 'Croatian', in this context refers to his nationality, his ethnicity or the

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You talk about canvassing but the only one notifying editors that were not already part of the discussion is you. You as usual provide zero arguments and rely on attacking other editors that try to have a healthy discussion. Im just waiting for you to start calling everybody nazis again.

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are not significantly different from the original RfC question, and that proposal #1 is the same as it. I was addressing some issues raised here and gave examples how it can in my view be written in a similar manner, yet be both in line with MOS (such as the example of Petrarch on

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I added the sources, there's more than 10 and not a single Croatian source. Take a look at the page history, there are probably a hundred reverts of multiple users done by Sadko to the point of page protection, and the talk page got us nowhere. So I see no other option than a RfC.

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So we should just ignore the majority of sources that refer to him as a part of Croatian literature, and in the process leave some Serbian blogs and political magazines to "prove" how he is actually a part of Serbian literature. What were you saying about

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region. Although, as you point out, there are some that consider Bunjevci separate from Croatians, they have long identified as Croats, speak the same language, have a similar culture et cetera. On the other hand Venetians have a separate history, a

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can see the context of your edits. Just as with your behavior on this article that led to several page protections in a very short period of time. And looking at the page and talk page history of this article, It is clear what you are trying to do.

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I think it is time to report the said user to finally remove him from these kind of articles as he is clearly not fit to edit them. This person deserves to be topic-banned from all Balkan-related articles. It is hilarious what he has done here.

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I beg to differ. That is a generalisation. Rephrasing is in order. Forcing undue weight and labeling Vuk's work as "pseudo" is laughable and ironic, as his work was used by Croatian linguists of the time (accents, standard, what have you).

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What is wrong with using a interview to as respected paper as source to present a scholar's view? It is not the best option, but it's not that bad either. Are you really attempting to tell me that Vreme and Politika have no reputation?

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in WPVOICE. The present text is much more informative as regards his 'nationality' and any text about the language he wrote in, cultural movement he was part of, or his ethnicity are better covered away from the opening sentence.

1148:(not defined as a Republic of Florence poet) as similar cases. The ethnicity section should also be reduced or removed completely and incorporated into other sections like legacy, as it containts a lot of unreliable sources. 1308: 743:

There are other questions that should/can be discussed but this is the main one. The problem, as it seems, is the inclusion that Ivan Gundulić was a Croatian poet in the lead of this article. The source confirming that is

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Even earlier than October, what seems to be the problem with that? I have removed it from a bunch of other unrelated articles as well, there is no cherrypicking here. I will continue to do so, as I have recently done on

832:. Pointing fingers ("YOU, YOU ARE, YOU HAVE DONE, YOU ARE THE REASON") and writing several sentences about other fellow editor's intentions or motivations based on personal impressions in the very intro post is not per 153: 3365:

In his family grave the surname used is Ghetaldi Gondola, not Gundulic. He was an italian dalmatian as most of the Ragusean intellectual elite and aristocracy. He was not born Gundulic, he was born Ghetaldi Gondola.

2154: 2128: 2111: 3515: 525: 1420:. It's an attempt to push one's preferred version. From my experience, in RfCs such as this one, it is quite common for users from local Wikipedias (hr.wiki or any other) to come out of the blue in order to vote 3300:@Sadko do you have some quality sources (books, articles)? You can't prove everything with internet portals and claims that the Croats are stealing something from us, no one has the right to claim Dubrovnik etc. 1167:) call their language Serbian. That is a fact and the rest is wishsful thinking. Calling old Ragusans Yugoslav (in ethnic sense) would be the most honest and objective viewpoint. This is another fine example - 827:

discussions should be started. It is your right to ignore that fact but other editors can therefore act accordingly as well. Pinging several (potentially, based on previous comments) partisan users is not per

909:(and many other sources, old and new). All of those sources can be found in TP archives and other editors have done it already. I see no point in counting Gundulić's blood cells like this, as he was Ragusan. 3510: 3495: 1544:. My proposal is not to name him a "Croat poet" or a "Croatian poet", though the majority of sources also support that. My proposal doesn't include his ethnicity. "Croatian Baroque poet" is linked to the 3008:, and a rather powerful separatist movement. Which illustrates some of the complications inherent with placing contemporary ethnicities and nationalities into the lead sections of historical figures. -- 2833:

I know that we "follow the sources" here, but where that leads to an unclear or ambiguous outcome, we ahould not follow them slavishly - I believe that is the case here and therefore we should

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Several proposals were introduced later in the RfC. There is no consensus on those proposals owing to insufficient participation so there is no prejudice against discussing them in a new RfC.

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It seems there is a laundry list of sources stating him as Croat. I see 10 listed which I was not aware. However due to controversy, it may be best to leave his ethnicity out of the intro.

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taken lightly. And yes, there has been a lot of discussion on the talk page, for many years. I get the idea where this formulation came from (or was taken from), and it's not from Mikola.

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https://www.aukcije.hr/prodaja/Filatelija/hrvatska/prigodne-omotnice-mk-zigovi/1107/oglas/HRVATSKAF-D-DUBROVNIK1989-D%C5%BDIVO-FRANOV-GUNDULI%C4%86-PJESNIK-KNJI%C5%BDEVNIK/4559974/#gallery

520: 415: 500: 411: 2882: 3520: 3186:"Политика: Историчар књижевности Злата Бојовић: У Дубровачкој републици штампарије су биле ћириличне, а свој језик су називали и српским" - an interview in a political magazine 837: 3505: 1399:. I think a RfC is the best way to try to end this discussion. Per my comments previously on the talk page, I think that this version is supported by a majority of sources. 147: 3446: 2331:

And related to this topic, users Sadko and OyMosby have recently also removed the "Croatian" label from a number of other articles under the same pretext as on this one,

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Yes, the lead should state that he is a Croatian poet as most sources do so. In the previous discussions I provided some sources to back that, and gave the examples of

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sense of Italian identity, while Ragusans did not have Croatian identity, but rather Ragusan or Slavic, while early sources (and a number of notable Ragusans, such as

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article. Obviously, naming the modern-day country of his birthplace is not that important here, though I would remove Republic or Ragusa as well from the lead.

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Clearly a 'one size fits all logic' regarding historic identity/modern state would lead to nonsense sometimes, Julius Caeser was not an Italian ruler/General,

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User Sadko is against this inclusion and has removed it from the lead. User Sadko states the following: restoring that Ivan Gundulić was a Croatian poet is a "

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Once again, no matter how right you may think that you are (speaking in genral), this sort of edit-warring is not doing the article of anybody justice.

2372:(the title is wrong, the actual title is "Croatia: Themes, Authors, Books - LITERATURE", is in fact supporting my proposal. Here's what's written there: 1566:

not RfC, but an open invitation to break MOS:Lead and NPOV, with giving 1 side's view the primary place, which is a certain path to destroy Knowledge.

3480: 373: 836:. We already have some rants by one IP, which just shows that this canvassing is sort of working, and no doubt that it will have further bad effect. 2398: 383: 44: 3535: 3525: 3490: 630: 620: 457: 1110:

Being celebrated by different countries is absolutely irrelevant. Shapespeare is celebrated by everyone. Go claim him with your fringe theories.

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is powerful enough to elect the regional governor of Marco Polo's home region, and proposes Venetians as a separate people from Italians... --

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No one could tell if he considered himself to be a Croat, but he certainly was/is prominent poet of "Croatian baroque"! Something like this (

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to the original proposal. It should be “Baroque poet from the Republic of Ragusa” or “Ragusan Baroque poet”, as is the case with most other

3540: 3530: 461: 3180:"Ljubomir Stojanovic - Stare Srpske Povelje i Pisma, knjiga I, Beograd - Sremski Karlovci, 1929" - a book from 1929, with no page numbers 2861: 2612: 2914:. He is part of Croatian literature, sure, and I guess he also thought Slavs were all one ethnic group. Alas, when we are describing a 1015:

That is a logical mistake because Republic of Ragusa was not a Croat republic, but had its own identity (which would be the closest to

3437: 3419: 1311: 465: 349: 2827:(Barack Obama is not described as an African-American politician, he is described as an American politician, who is African-American) 2163: 2137: 2077: 1998: 1878: 1787: 1761: 1635: 596: 2030: 1428:. It will not bring anything good to the article. Not to mention that the man in question was Ragusan patriot and high official of 456:, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Knowledge's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to 168: 856:

Again, no substance, just steam. I asked you to present some evidence, you provided none. Is there more to say on the matter. --

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The entire "Ethnicity" section should be removed from the article. It was since the article's creation a target for very often

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theories from a number of fringe Serbian websites on Gundulić being part of Serbian literature such as www.komunikacija.org.rs

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aside, I have quoted several Wiki rules and gave several examples as well. Older editions of Encyclopedia Britannica call him

739:, in this discussion. Please do share your opinion on this matter and what do you think should be done. The main question is: 3174:"dr Milorad Vukanović: Niko nema pravo da svojata Dubrovnik!" - an interview in the "Alliance of Serbs in the Region" website 1849: 1685: 1660: 104: 20: 777:

First off, this is not how a discussion should be started! Pinging just several users is not good, for obvious reasons, and

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Does this mean that someone is separating us ie proposes Bunjevci as a separate people from Croatians? That's why I say "

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

340: 301: 74: 3177:"Mirko Vuksanović: Gundulić i Držić pripadaju i srpskoj baštini" - a press release by a member of SANU from a news portal 2435:(this sentence is indicative: "with the presence of Serbian language within the Republic of Ragusa since its foundation") 2825:- personally I think the Tesla description is wrong, though it is part of a common Ethnicity-Nationality use in the USA 2579:

We can easily avoid the potentional issues mentioned by Mikola22. I'm fine with any of these proposals, or similar ones:

587: 548: 276: 249: 226: 3155: 65: 3183:"Vreme - Intervju – Zlata Bojović, istoričarka književnosti: Među Lavom i Drokunom" - an interview in a news magazine 2459: 2885:. It is important to be consistent, especially in the case of people with a disputed background and ethnicity (like 2019:. Federal Administration for International Scientific, Educational, Cultural and Technical Cooperation. 1980. p. 28. 129: 3351: 2512: 245: 185: 3156:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Nikola_Tesla/Nationality_and_ethnicity/Archive_11#Nikola_Tesla_is_Croatian-American

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On the other hand, there are less sources, more personal views, original research regarding what was Gundulić's

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I don't see any voting for any version of the article, and I still don't see the 30 sources from your claims.

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Regarding specifically "Marco Polo", this is a complicated argument as a substantial number of adherents of

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The consensus is that the text in the lead describing Gundulić should not be changed from "most prominent

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Ivan Gundulić, was a Baroque poet, who ranks among the most important figures of the Croatian literature.

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may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the

3456: 2713:. As per what was said by tzowu. This is sourced and has been the stable version of the lede for almost 2611:

I don't know if I need to add them in the lead? These are in line with the example of Petrarch given on

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They are not RS. These are mostly political pamphlets. We had such sources on Andrija Zmajević artice

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procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been

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If Marco Polo was an Italian merchant then Ivan Gundulić is Croatian Baroque Poet, and that's why I

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Gundulić was the most prominent Croatian poet of the Baroque period", but that is unacceptable per

2688: 2463: 2302: 2258: 1545: 1378: 1338: 970: 241: 161: 55: 3367: 3331:, unreliable, or uncited content, and I don't see that changing anytime soon if that is not done. 595:

on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join

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Mining, Metallurgy, and Minting in the Middle Ages: Continuing Afro-European Supremacy, 1250-1450

1728: 1429: 1347: 833: 204: 70: 141: 490: 3401: 3386: 3371: 3046: 3005: 2722: 2570: 2286: 2212: 2186: 2160: 2134: 2074: 1995: 1969: 1904: 1875: 1846: 1784: 1758: 1682: 1657: 1632: 1490: 1458: 1282: 1130: 1115: 1063: 1048: 1006: 949: 883: 861: 814: 767: 661: 51: 2615:. There is a reference to Italian Renaissance, and no reference to the Republic of Florence.: 2483:

and google out examples of early poetry from Ragusa, you would be surprised with the result.

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Vukovic, Sanja (2018-03-29). "DUBROVNIK – ČIJI JE?". - a commentary on "srpskilegat" website

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Thanks to all that are going to participate and I hope that we can resolve this dispute. --

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that way a fair representation of the reliable sources? And btw, I have no problem with a

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The Price of Freedom: A History of East Central Europe from the Middle Ages to the Present

1706:. Vol. 3. Dept. of Slavic Languages and Literatures, University of Michigan. 1984. p. 163. 1574: 1553: 1524: 1508: 1475: 1440: 1404: 1386: 1267: 1248: 1235: 1208: 1196: 1179: 1153: 1145: 1079: 1032: 989: 924: 846: 798: 703: 3103: 3009: 2976: 2961: 2928: 2924: 2864:) and with reliable sources. So the bottom line of the RfC question is still the same. 2476: 2310: 2275: 2251: 1865: 1091: 963: 710: 689: 332: 2305:

called Baroque literature and that is where the link goes. That is similar to the way

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fair to consider this a neutral source from both Croatian and Serbian points of view.

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voted for the current version - which is to stay. I was not active in that debate.

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and want to call him as I was incorrectly tutored throughout state education system

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Practices of Coexistence: Constructions of the Other in Early Modern Perceptions

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Should the text in the lead describing Gundulić be changed from "most prominent

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This isn’t very productive conversation. Personal attacks won’t lead anywhere.

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proposal. We need to take wikipedia examples and apply it everywhere equally.

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So that would be source number 20 from my side, further confirming what the

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Should the article lead state that Ivan Gundulić was a Croatian poet or not?

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the three "proposals", as they are not part of the original RfC question.

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Ivan Gundulić, was the most prominent poet of the Croatian Baroque period.

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Does this mean that you support the proposal? If yes, you should write '

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same page, but both of us DO care about basic Wiki rules and guidlines.

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Knowledge:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 8 § Talk:Ivan Gunduli?

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before it got removed without any sort of discussion on the talk page.

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or agreed upon removal of the same style of lead with fellow editor on

2375:"Gundulić, born in Dubrovnik, is the most celebrated Croatian Baroque." 1374: 1334: 345: 592: 2735:"We need to take wikipedia examples and apply it everywhere equally" 1871:

The Fashion Chronicles: The style stories of history’s best dressed

464:. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the 3444:. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at 2987:

We need to take wikipedia examples and apply it everywhere equally

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Eastern Europe: An Intruduction to the People, Lands, and Culture

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ssr.org.rs and similar are not reliable sources for this matter.

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These are the kind of sources found in the "ethnicity" section:

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Dubrovnik and the American Revolution: Francesco Favi's letters

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Unknown-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles

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system" you were saying more about yourself, unfortunately. --

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is Italian merchant then and Ivan Gundulić is Croatian poet.

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Also, the first source which Sadko listed under his sources,

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His ethnicity was Ragusan/Slavic. That is already mentioned.

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This RfC is completely pointless as it bluntly ignores basic

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Ivan Gundulić, was the most prominent Croatian Baroque poet.

1757:. Polish Institute of Arts and Sciences of America. p. 336. 509: 489: 3516:

Low-importance biography (politics and government) articles

1968:. Vol. 3. Britannica Educational Publishing. 2014. p. 300. 2246:

the RfC listing entry, because the statement is no longer

1965:

Authors of the Medieval and Renaissance Eras: 1100 to 1660

1824:. Édition de lA̕cadémie bulgare des sciences. 2000. p. 28. 236:

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the

1952:. Vol. 30. American Bibliographical Center. 1984. p. 336. 1949:

Historical Abstracts: Modern history abstracts, 1775-1914

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Start-Class biography (politics and government) articles

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Start-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles

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And those two (Tesla and Marco Polo) are GA articles.

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Cross currents: A Yearbook of Central European culture

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to determine whether its use and function meets the

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regarding political questions on Balkan subjects. --

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Jadwiga of Anjou and the Rise of East Central Europe

591:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 344:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of 2669: 2645: 2475:in 2 or 3 literatures, that must be respected, per 1805:

Collier's Encyclopedia: With Bibliography and Index

1326:

RfC: Should the description in the lead be changed?

2093:Favi, Francesco; Vucinich, Wayne S. (1977-01-01). 750:https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ivan-Gundulic 2418:Considering the fact that at least since October 2309:is labeled as an Italian poet with a link to the 1144:(not defined as an Austrian Empire scientist) or 782:there is a good possibility of going in circles. 33:for general discussion of the article's subject. 2067:Singleton, Fred; Fred, Singleton (1985-03-21). 1331: 2956:might find this rather offensive... And also, 2651: 2113:The Slavs in European history and civilization 2982:wikipedia they are South Slavic ethnic group. 2211:. Central European University Press. p. 147. 2016:Important Cultural Institutions in Yugoslavia 1019:, if we look at it from modern perspective). 174: 8: 2862:Knowledge:Manual of Style/Biography#Examples 2660: 2613:Knowledge:Manual of Style/Biography#Examples 2479:. As for the quoted sentence take a look at 1733:: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list ( 1653:Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of Literature 3521:Politics and government work group articles 2675: 2631:; July 20, 1304 – July 19, 1374), commonly 1424:(without earlier activity on the page) per 262: 3506:Arts and entertainment work group articles 3213:and there were thrown out of the article. 3075:Croatian-American but it is not respected. 1582: 757:bold edit that must have broader consensus 752:, an independent and third party source. 537: 395: 290: 1625:Greene, Roland; Cushman, Stephen (2016). 2823:(or even the current name of 'his land') 2399:Knowledge:Knowledge is not about winning 2156:Dubrovnik (Ragusa): A Classic City-state 1628:The Princeton Handbook of World Poetries 737:We would be honored if you would join us 3148: 2346:following a "deal" on their talk page. 2070:A Short History of the Yugoslav Peoples 1599: 1585: 539: 397: 292: 2470:in near future. None of it is fringe, 1726: 1720:The Great Ottoman-Turkish Civilisation 1717:Çiçek, Kemal, Kuran, Ercüment (2000). 1631:. Princeton University Press. p. 136. 1546:Croatian literature#Baroque literature 1227:is, as always, completely irrelevant. 521:the politics and government work group 3166:Interviews, press releases as sources 2663: 2627: 1903:. Taylor & Francis Group. p. 86. 1300:This postcard - a first-day-of-issue 1058:Wikipedias seems ridiculous as well. 501:the arts and entertainment work group 7: 2672: 2657: 2654: 2648: 1994:. Indiana University Press. p. 416. 1361:The following discussion is closed. 977:Ragusan literature is not a part of 960:"prominent poet of Croatian baroque" 585:This article is within the scope of 450:This article is within the scope of 338:This article is within the scope of 2821:language/culture in which he wrote 2370:Yale University - Slavic Literature 2056:Yale University - Slavic Literature 281:It is of interest to the following 23:for discussing improvements to the 1681:. Vol. 13. Grolier. 2000. p. 615. 779:this case borders with canvassing. 14: 3059:The discussion above is closed. 2185:. Franz Steiner Verlag. p. 1485. 1808:. Vol. 20. Collier. 1950. p. 440. 1656:. Merriam-Webster. 1995. p. 501. 1608:"Ivan Gundulić | Croatian author" 3481:High-importance Croatia articles 3425: 2641: 1933:A Traveller's History of Croatia 1838:Censorship: A World Encyclopedia 1723:(4 ed.). University of Michigan. 784:The source is confirming nothing 572: 562: 541: 437: 427: 399: 325: 315: 294: 263: 217: 45:Click here to start a new topic. 3450:until a consensus is reached. 2133:. İstanbul Bilgi Üniversitesi. 625:This article has been rated as 474:Knowledge:WikiProject Biography 378:This article has been rated as 3536:Low-importance Poetry articles 3526:WikiProject Biography articles 3491:Start-Class biography articles 3033:on the original proposal, per 2691:, who was one of the earliest 2073:. Cambridge University Press. 1225:Knowledge:I just don't like it 911:Knowledge:I just don't like it 477:Template:WikiProject Biography 1: 3486:All WikiProject Croatia pages 2205:Sebok, Marcell (2017-06-30). 1426:Knowledge:Nationalist editing 1120:22:45, 25 February 2020 (UTC) 1053:23:10, 25 February 2020 (UTC) 1038:22:09, 25 February 2020 (UTC) 1011:21:57, 25 February 2020 (UTC) 995:21:20, 25 February 2020 (UTC) 973:19:36, 25 February 2020 (UTC) 954:04:07, 25 February 2020 (UTC) 930:20:55, 24 February 2020 (UTC) 888:20:27, 24 February 2020 (UTC) 866:18:00, 24 February 2020 (UTC) 852:17:48, 24 February 2020 (UTC) 819:17:23, 24 February 2020 (UTC) 804:16:52, 24 February 2020 (UTC) 772:15:37, 24 February 2020 (UTC) 599:and see a list of open tasks. 518:This article is supported by 498:This article is supported by 358:Knowledge:WikiProject Croatia 352:and see a list of open tasks. 250:contentious topics procedures 42:Put new text under old text. 3476:Start-Class Croatia articles 3361:He was born Ghetaldi Gondola 2883:prominent people from Ragusa 2301:. There is a section on the 1320:20:47, 6 February 2023 (UTC) 823:Once again, that is not how 790:can not be taken seriously. 605:Knowledge:WikiProject Poetry 462:contribute to the discussion 361:Template:WikiProject Croatia 3541:WikiProject Poetry articles 3531:Start-Class Poetry articles 3356:01:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC) 2153:Carter, Francis W. (1972). 2116:. Rutgers University Press. 1354:) 22:50, 16 May 2020 (UTC) 1207:will take care of Croats.-- 1086:) 00:18, 5 April 2020 (UTC) 608:Template:WikiProject Poetry 50:New to Knowledge? Welcome! 3557: 3391:08:42, 20 March 2021 (UTC) 3376:08:13, 20 March 2021 (UTC) 3136:05:00, 25 April 2020 (UTC) 3121:18:19, 24 April 2020 (UTC) 3097:14:00, 22 April 2020 (UTC) 2903:17:04, 27 April 2020 (UTC) 2874:18:10, 24 April 2020 (UTC) 2848:15:53, 24 April 2020 (UTC) 2798:14:41, 24 April 2020 (UTC) 2770:10:37, 24 April 2020 (UTC) 2747:10:06, 24 April 2020 (UTC) 2727:01:24, 24 April 2020 (UTC) 2705:23:25, 23 April 2020 (UTC) 2575:17:48, 21 April 2020 (UTC) 2555:16:44, 20 April 2020 (UTC) 2533:17:02, 19 April 2020 (UTC) 2497:14:16, 19 April 2020 (UTC) 2453:13:37, 19 April 2020 (UTC) 2414:12:23, 19 April 2020 (UTC) 2392:10:39, 19 April 2020 (UTC) 2358:10:27, 19 April 2020 (UTC) 2323:21:31, 18 April 2020 (UTC) 2294:19:06, 18 April 2020 (UTC) 2263:18:17, 16 April 2020 (UTC) 1991:A history of baroque music 1988:Buelow, George J. (2004). 1777:Richard C. Frucht (2005). 1678:The Encyclopedia Americana 1558:15:08, 16 April 2020 (UTC) 1529:15:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC) 1514:11:42, 16 April 2020 (UTC) 1495:03:01, 16 April 2020 (UTC) 1481:02:35, 16 April 2020 (UTC) 1463:02:21, 16 April 2020 (UTC) 1446:01:52, 16 April 2020 (UTC) 1409:23:15, 15 April 2020 (UTC) 1391:23:11, 15 April 2020 (UTC) 1272:16:59, 29 March 2020 (UTC) 1257:21:34, 28 March 2020 (UTC) 1241:17:44, 28 March 2020 (UTC) 1217:16:58, 28 March 2020 (UTC) 1201:20:48, 23 March 2020 (UTC) 1185:20:28, 23 March 2020 (UTC) 1158:18:58, 23 March 2020 (UTC) 631:project's importance scale 384:project's importance scale 3193:How are any of these RS? 2737:. There is no other way. 2110:Dvornik, Francis (1962). 2035:The Columbia Encyclopedia 1930:Curtis, Benjamin (2010). 1377:poet" to "most prominent 1337:poet" to "most prominent 1287:22:54, 3 April 2020 (UTC) 1135:03:08, 4 April 2020 (UTC) 1068:03:08, 4 April 2020 (UTC) 624: 557: 517: 497: 422: 377: 310: 289: 252:before editing this page. 80:Be welcoming to newcomers 3462:16:46, 8 June 2023 (UTC) 3438:redirects for discussion 3420:Redirects for discussion 3406:16:11, 13 May 2021 (UTC) 3381:Source:my friend BeNiTo 3341:18:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC) 3310:14:50, 2 June 2020 (UTC) 3295:13:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC) 3279:12:35, 2 June 2020 (UTC) 3260:12:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC) 3242:12:32, 2 June 2020 (UTC) 3223:05:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC) 3203:01:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC) 3061:Please do not modify it. 3037:and TU-Nor's reasoning. 2835:Not use Croation Baroque 2460:Sava Petrović (botanist) 1453:sourcing to justify it. 1364:Please do not modify it. 903:character assassinations 246:normal editorial process 3111:use of that guideline. 3051:21:07, 3 May 2020 (UTC) 3018:00:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC) 2999:19:20, 3 May 2020 (UTC) 2970:19:41, 2 May 2020 (UTC) 2937:19:36, 2 May 2020 (UTC) 2179:Blanchard, Ian (2001). 2127:Ortaylı, İlber (2004). 1612:Encyclopedia Britannica 1105:11:42, 6 May 2020 (UTC) 746:Encyclopedia Britannica 416:Politics and Government 233:as a contentious topic. 1874:. Hachette UK. p. 99. 1356: 1169:Alexander von Humboldt 1024:things are tolerated. 514: 494: 412:Arts and Entertainment 271:This article is rated 242:standards of behaviour 75:avoid personal attacks 2683:), was a scholar and 2565:before your comment. 916:is not a good start. 513: 493: 453:WikiProject Biography 100:Neutral point of view 2954:Padanian nationalism 2855:. I know that these 1895:Piotr Stefan Wandycz 1835:Derek Jones (2001). 1783:. ABC-CLIO. p. 464. 830:Knowledge:Canvassing 238:purpose of Knowledge 105:No original research 3442:redirect guidelines 3436:has been listed at 2481:Frančesko Micalović 2380:majority of sources 2303:Croatian literature 1548:article. Sources: 1165:Frančesko Micalović 341:WikiProject Croatia 3433:Talk:Ivan Gunduli? 3416:Talk:Ivan Gunduli? 2920:Shtokavian dialect 2621:Francesco Petrarca 2515:have to say here. 2425:You already added 1821:Études balkaniques 1430:Republic of Ragusa 834:Knowledge:Civility 588:WikiProject Poetry 515: 495: 480:biography articles 277:content assessment 227:contentious topics 86:dispute resolution 47: 3006:separate language 2689:Renaissance Italy 2270:it should not be 2231: 2230: 2217:978-963-386-149-3 2191:978-3-515-08704-9 2159:. Seminar Press. 1974:978-1-6153-0998-6 1909:978-0-415-25490-8 1107: 901:Smears and self 645: 644: 641: 640: 637: 636: 536: 535: 532: 531: 394: 393: 390: 389: 257: 256: 212: 211: 66:Assume good faith 43: 3548: 3435: 3429: 3348:MarburgAnDerDrau 3276: 3270: 3257: 3251: 3239: 3233: 3158: 3153: 3082: 2980: 2951: 2767: 2761: 2682: 2681: 2678: 2677: 2674: 2671: 2666: 2665: 2662: 2659: 2656: 2653: 2650: 2647: 2630: 2626: 2513:reliable sources 2494: 2488: 2464:Momčilo Tapavica 2443:editing again? 2411: 2405: 2289: 2283: 2272:Croatian Baroque 2254: 2245: 2239: 2222: 2221: 2202: 2196: 2195: 2176: 2170: 2169: 2150: 2144: 2143: 2124: 2118: 2117: 2107: 2101: 2100: 2099:. Ragusan Press. 2090: 2084: 2083: 2064: 2058: 2053: 2047: 2046: 2044: 2042: 2031:"Gundulić, Ivan" 2027: 2021: 2020: 2011: 2005: 2004: 1985: 1979: 1978: 1960: 1954: 1953: 1944: 1938: 1937: 1927: 1921: 1920: 1918: 1916: 1891: 1885: 1884: 1862: 1856: 1855: 1832: 1826: 1825: 1816: 1810: 1809: 1800: 1794: 1793: 1774: 1768: 1767: 1745: 1739: 1738: 1732: 1724: 1714: 1708: 1707: 1698: 1692: 1691: 1673: 1667: 1666: 1648: 1642: 1641: 1622: 1616: 1615: 1604: 1583: 1577: 1571: 1511: 1505: 1478: 1472: 1443: 1437: 1379:Croatian Baroque 1366: 1339:Croatian Baroque 1238: 1232: 1182: 1176: 1088: 1035: 1029: 992: 986: 979:Croatian baroque 968: 927: 921: 849: 843: 801: 795: 735: 728: 721: 714: 707: 700: 693: 686: 679: 672: 665: 658: 613: 612: 609: 606: 603: 582: 577: 576: 566: 559: 558: 553: 545: 538: 482: 481: 478: 475: 472: 458:join the project 447: 445:Biography portal 442: 441: 440: 431: 424: 423: 418: 403: 396: 366: 365: 364:Croatia articles 362: 359: 356: 335: 330: 329: 328: 319: 312: 311: 306: 298: 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