Talk:John Baird (Canadian politician)/Archive 1

4176:

last year. He identified as gay his entire career, just never on the record. From what I understand, Baird's the same. He is gay and he lives his personal life openly. But he hasn't felt the need to announce it to everyone through the press. He's not closeted, he's not pretending to be straight, he's just not answering questions. The question is, does it matter? Half of me thinks, who cares? Makes no difference to me and if he doesn't want it publicly broadcast, even if he doesn't hide it in his personal life, then why should we do otherwise here? Then there's a small part of me that thinks, he's probably the highest ranking non-closeted (i.e. a gay person portraying himself as straight) gay politician in Canadian history. To me that seems important both for what it is and what it could mean for young Canadian gays. It'd be kind of like leaving out the fact that Herb Gray was the first Jewish federal cabinet Minister (and later Deputy Prime Minister) just because he never was photographed at a synagogue.

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interview with the media in which he specifically calls himself gay does not mean that he doesn't publicly identify himself within that community. The question arises: What counts as public self-identification? Does it suffice that his colleagues and members of the media - people who have met him and interviewed him and worked with him - publicly identify him as gay following their own direct communications with him? If John Baird openly attends and participates in gay social venues and events within the gay community (which he does), can we exclude him from an LGBT category just because he hasn't given an interview specifically mentioning his sexuality? I believe that Baird does meet the criteria to be included in such a category as there appears to be an acceptable standard of proof.

4066:. Essentially, he's in what I refer to as a "glass closet": he certainly lives his personal life openly, but for whatever reason he chooses not to talk about it to the media. He's not strictly "in the closet", because he's not hiding it from his friends and family or claiming to be straight or cruising airport bathrooms with a wide stance or anything like that, but he's not strictly "out of the closet" in the sense that is usually understood when it pertains to a public figure, either. Nobody's trying to help him cover it up on here or anything like that — protecting John Baird, of all people, hardly ranks high on my list of priorities, believe me — but there just isn't a source out there for it which actually meets a properly encyclopedic standard. 358:"Talk pages are used to make decisions about article contents. Contentious material that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related or useful to making article content choices should be deleted, and even permanently removed ("oversighted") if especially problematic (telephone number, libel, etc). New material should generally be discussed in order to arrive at a consensus concerning relevance, availability of sources, and reliability of sources. Repeated questionable claims with biographies of living persons issues not based on new evidence can generally be immediately deleted with a reference to where in the archive the prior consensus was reached." 4727:

become worthy of reporting on Knowledge--perhaps even worthy of its own article? I think that clearly isn't the case yet, it's simply not relevant enough, but it COULD become relevant enough that it will be worth reporting regardless of anything John Baird says or does himself. As I said, it would have no bearing on whether he is included in any LGBT category of any sort; only the campaign itself, or the public discourse, would be mentioned. I suspect that this will become the case as we get closer to Sochi 2014 and the media coverage of Russia, John Baird, gays, and whatever else heats up even more.

3837:: if there are numerous references to someone's political beliefs, religious beliefs, etc., would we not include an appropriate reference in such a person's article? (I assume you can see this coming) Therefore, since we hve numerous references to Baird being gay, why should such a reference not be included in his article? Are we censors? Do we enforce a code of morality here? By not including such reference are we someone how suggesting the issue is shameful? Interested in your thoughts. Thanks, 1554:(there is an apostrophe when you pronounce in the Carribean way, mon) is criticized. There is some balance, but not enough. All in all, it does look like someone has made a concerted effort to find criticism for most of the things he did, although I don't think we need shy away from listing his gaffes, of which there were many. I will try to take a look at this soon and suggest ways of making it less POV here on the talk page and see what otehrs think before making changes. 532:

sex, this can't be published on Knowledge (this is hardly encyclopedic). I don't know why homosexual affairs are treated differently by Knowledge than allegations of heterosexual affairs. Frankly I find this heterosexist as the policy doesn't say you can't refer to someone's heterosexuality unless they self-identify. But I'll concede that one Knowledge policy does prohibit describing someone as gay unless they are quoted self-identifying, so I'll drop this.--

2338:– This reminds me of a pointless article headline I say in the Kingston Whig-Standard many years ago on the day after a federal election: “Local residents' views on election result: some like it, some don’t”. After the first sentence, the paragraph pretty much says, “Some supported the move, others didn’t.” I think this would be more concise without losing meaning if the paragraph stopped after the first sentence, i.e., that the second sentence be 31: 4633:

well as mentioning some of the reasons that the campaign exists (e.g. Pamela Geller's comments in 2010). I think that, as Baird's reputation increaisngly has to do with being a person who "is taking on Russia", or something, this becomes something that is increasingly relevant to mention. I would point out, though, that none of this necessarily means that Baird has to be listed as gay or included in an "LGBT politicians" category.

3453: 3434: 3420: 3393: 3373: 3350: 3340: 3319: 3305: 3291: 3264: 3250: 3531:"Baird was less combative as Energy Minister than he had been in Community and Social Services. The energy policies of the Eves government were controversial, but opposition criticism was often directed at the premier rather than at Baird. Eves took a prominent interest in the Energy portfolio, and sometimes relegated Baird to a secondary role in policy announcements." (Energy Minister) 2582:, to defend his position that adherence to the Kyoto Protocol would result in a severe economic downtown. In a private letter that was leaked to the media in the same period, Drummond wrote to Baird that the "economic cost would be at least as deep as the recession in the early 1980s". Opposition parliamentarians dismissed the report as a scare tactic, while Liberal Environment Critic 2330:“Later in the year, Baird announced that his department would spend $ 26 million on shelters and other funding for the homeless. This decision was praised as a positive step, although opposition members criticized the plan for not providing funds for investment in affordable housing.REF James Stevenson, "Ontario to spend $ 26 million on shelters and programs for homeless", 2731:

abandonment of Kyoto goals, while David Suzuki described the proposal as a "sham" with "weak targets". Some of the harshest criticism has come from Al Gore, who described Baird's proposal as a "complete and total fraud" that was "designed to mislead the Canadian people". Baird responded by defending his plan, and by criticizing Gore's environmental record while in office.

2540:. All Conservative MPs who were present in the House, including Baird, voted against the motion, which passed with the support of the three opposition parties. Baird is a vocal opponent of the Protocol, which he argues would bring about an "economic collapse". Recently, the Conservatives' position has been backed by five independent economists, including 176:???? It makes it very clear that Baird is gay. What else could it possibly mean? It's stand-alone paragraph containing 2 sentances. The first says ... hmm ... wait ... I've seen that quoted with the word "gay conservative" elsewhere ... did Now change their website, or has someone lead my astray ... now I'm going to have to grab a hardcopy ... 1940:“Kormos announced plans to introduce a resolution calling on Curling to resign from the post, and it was rumoured that Baird was considering a similar move” --- the remainder of the paragraph makes the relationship between the two clear enough. (This is the last change that I am suggesting to the "Provincial politics" section at this time.) 1081:(I had read the print article, which is what brought me to this article in the first place). Anyways, I haven't edited the article again because I accept democratic decision-making, and I know that when different rationales keep being offered for a decision after each is criticized, it's because the decision has already been made.-- 693:

article. This goes beyond Knowledge policies for verifiability, which only require that it be published in a reputable publication with a reputation for fact-checking. This is akin to demanding the police who arrested Larry Craig publicly post a video of his conduct before including an allegation in the article.

3066:(iii) The McGuinty brothers' divergence toward Baird's proposal is interesting and noteworthy, but not something that should be blown out of proportion (particularly given that Dalton was also critical of the proposal as a whole). "Less critical" gets the point across without the hyperbole of "considerably". 3027:

entirely, whereas Dalton said it could have gone further but was satisfied that he was able to influence one piece of the plan. (The editorial explains that David is the shadow cabinet critic, so his job is to be criticial, compared to Dalton who instead has some incentive to work with the federal Tories.)

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So I am wondering at what point does it become relevant for Knowledge to discuss? I agree that pushing Baird to come out through Knowledge is bad form, but there is now a growing queer activist campaign to push him to do that, and I don't think Knowledge would be in the wrong to simply mention it, as

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Baird himself has never come out. He's never publicly stated that he's gay. Therefore, Knowledge cannot identify him as gay. Xtra is perfectly acceptable as a source. However, in this case, they are just printing what is essentially gossip. Until Baird comes out publicly, Knowledge won't identify him

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I cannot understand why him being gay is considered at all in doubt. Go ask Chris Day, one of his assistants, who is also gay. Its been out there in the media. Why is Xtra considered an unreliable source? Its a newspaper, and doesnt publish spurious rumours.... you must be thinking of another certain

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said Baird's plan was "designed to mislead the Canadian people". Baird responded by defending his plan, and by criticizing Gore's environmental record, noting that no similarly stringent measures were passed during Gore's tenure in office and that the Kyoto Treaty was never submitted to the US Senate

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In any event ... when I included the line, "Baird acknowledged that the syringe event demonstrated "immature judgement" on his part", my intent was to demonstrate that he was making a serious effort to move beyond the accusations of juvenile behaviour that dogged his early life as a cabinet minister.

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I disagree with calling him a "vegetarian". Vegetarians, being one myself, do not eat ANY type of animal, including fish and other seafood. Some vegetarians eat eggs and dairy (lacto-ovo vegetarians). If he eats seafood then he's still an omnivore, plain and simple. I suggest re-working that sentence

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Sorry, I misinterpreted your point. Didn't intend to circumvent the discussion. Feel free to revert until agreement is reached. I still disagree with that, though. You are essentially demanding that a journalist publicly cite his sources (likely anonymous) before such an allegation is included in the

4726:

Everything you said makes sense, but that's not exactly what I was talking about. I had a question regarding the fact that, regardless of his private life, there now exists something of an informal campaign calling on John Baird to come out as gay. At what point does that campaign, in and of itself,

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was gay, too, and look how that turned out. Which certainly isn't to suggest that Baird is a similar situation — but it does demonstrate why we have to wait until someone actually makes a reliably sourced public statement of their own self-identification. As I've noted previously, when you get right

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The early life section is somewhat lacking. Who were his parents? What was his childhood like? What influenced him to get into politics? How did his childhood experiences affect his later life? You don't have to answer all of these questions, especially if the information is not available, but these

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in CJC’s version, but not in GD’s. As far as “who has been consulted by political parties of all stripes” goes, this seems to be an attempt to provide an endorsement to Drummond. I don’t think it is necessary – his reputation is well-known. David Suzuki has been consulted by political parties of all

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has been considerably less critical than his brother, having earlier written to Prime Minister Harper on the environmental policy saying "I would like to stress how important it is to adopt a policy that takes into account the North American market in its entirety. The fact is, when it comes to cars

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I wonder if it might be better to rewrite this line instead of deleting it ... perhaps "Baird later announced that his department would spend $ 26 million on shelters and other funding for the homeless. Opposition members welcomed the new spending, but criticized the absence of funds for affordable

1080:

I'm not sure why participating on the discussion page is seen as an edit war, but I guess I'm too new to wikipedia. This started because I undid an edit you made to someone else's addition, after you gave the rationale that the article had never mentioned the word "gay", so I knew you hadn't read it

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Yet there is no retraction or even correction -- simply an omission -- which indicates that this is not an issue of libel or false information. As suggested earlier, it's more likely this was done in the online article due to political controversy around outing. That does not render the print source

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There is no statement on NOW's website clarifying that there was an error in the original article, so you can't read into their intentions for not writing the word 'gay' in the online version. It could have been an editorial decision resulting from outraged e-mails from readers, which does not make

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who reads Baird's article has access to this page just by clicking on a tab within the article, whereas CWNB is hidden to casual users. So in a situation where discussion of a sensitive BLP issue is unavoidable, taking it to an internal project page at least has the benefit of keeping it as far away

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which states that a living person cannot be identified with a particular social, cultural, or other group/community unless that person is quoted in a printed material as self-identifying himself/herself with that group. Just because John Baird (or any other person, for that matter) has not given an

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This section of the talk page discusses details of his private life that he does not appear to want discussed in the public sphere. The other sections do not. This is not homophobic; I'd take the same approach if we were discussing a dubiously-sourced claim that he had had an affair with a female

4749:

Hello, I retitled the section title "Support for Oil Sands Project opposed by 61 First Nations" (or something to that effect). I don't believe the "opposed by 61 First Nations" should be in the title. Any political initiative undertaken is going to be opposed by somebody, and that should be in the

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John Baird would actually say it on the record for once so that we can actually stick it in the article and finally put this debate to rest. But I'm also a Knowledge administrator who's been around here for long enough to know all the reasons why we need to be careful about stuff like this, and to

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Although I haven't seen very much of articles on CBC since April except one about a UN report that contradicted Baird's claims that Kyoto's plans would hurt significantly the economy. I've added the UN bit plus Baird's rebuttal saying Canada will have its levels of emissions peaked before the UN's

3069:

Incidentally, you might be interested to know that the McGuinty and Harper governments have very similar views on the role of nuclear power, and that Dion's coal strategy hasn't met with a strong reception at Queen's Park. There are serious divisions between the federal and provincial Liberals on

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has been less critical than his brother. The Premier had previously written to Prime Minister Harper on environmental policy, stressing the importance of considering the North American market as a whole, due to the automotive industry's importance to his province. McGuinty said the Conservatives'

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Run it's course perhaps ... but good grief ... the very next time I'm here and it's been archived? I think archiving this portion of the discussion and not the rest is extreme prejudice! I'm completely perplexed why one thinks something like this should be hidden!! Not discussing in the article is

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I'm gay and I wholly support blanking this discussion once it's run its course — although I rather hate the fact that such considerations are necessary in the first place, I agree wholeheartedly with the principle that outing people who haven't addressed the matter of their sexuality on the public

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Thanks for your comments, Sarcastic. I think Bearcat has a solid understanding of both the letter of Knowledge policy on this and its spirit, and I think he has articulated it clearly. I would add that the most current version of the NOW article, the one on the web, has omitted this information. I

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are contradictory, as the former says that allegations about someone's personal life published in reputable sources can be included here, and the latter says that allegations about homosexuality cannot be published unless the person admits to it. So even if someone is caught red-handed having gay

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I agree that when the print version and the web version disagree, we should use the more conservative of the two. In this case, it may be that NOW magazine made a mistake in reporting the quotation, and has corrected it for the on-line version. It may be that NOW magazine has realised that what it

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The quote seemed very clear to me. And Frank reported he was gay 3 years ago, so it's not like it's a revelation. Both Globe and Mail and Macleans have been making veiled comments for years. To be honest, I'm hugely anti-Tory, to a great extent it's because of their bigoted position on same-sex

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I think there's a difference between being closeted and living openly without discussing it with the media. Rick Mercer falls into this category. He lived his life openly gay, I think he'd been in a relationship with the same man for a couple decades, but he never dicussed it with the media until

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has been considerably less critical than his brother, having earlier written to Prime Minister Harper on the environmental policy. The Premier had stressed the importance of a policy that considered the North American market as a whole, due to the automotive industry's importance to his province.

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Baird released his government's targets for greenhouse gas emissions in late April 2007. The plan calls for Canada to begin cutting its existing rate of greenhouse gas emissions by 2010, and for cuts to reach 20% by 2020. Under this plan, Canada will reach its Kyoto targets between 2020 and 2025,

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2432:

Yes, I think it is still under discussion. The question for is whether is directly relevant to bring up affordable housing in discussing Baird's announcement on a homeless strategy. I agree with the criticism that it is does not make sense to have a homeless strategy without addressing affordable

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for allegedly favouring his Liberal colleagues, saying that he sanctioned Conservative and NDP members for behaviour he would allow from Liberals. Kormos announced plans to introduce a resolution calling on Curling to resign from the post, and it was rumoured that Baird was considering a similar

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When I expanded this article in early 2006, I had some concerns that my personal views about Baird were clouding my editorial judgement. (It will probably occasion very little surprise that my opinion towards Baird is mostly unfavourable, although not entirely so. I doubt readers will have much

1633:

I agree with this call. I wrote this sentence as the conclusion to a much longer paragraph, the rest of which has now been deleted. It doesn't have any particularly great significance on its own, and I had planned to remove it myself. I suspect we can probably just go ahead and delete it now.

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is the relevant policy here: "Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject." Baird is a parliamentarian and minister. His sexuality is not very relevant to an

3615:

Ok, I've expanded the lead to added briefly some of its policies he made such as the social program cuts, and Hydro One sell failure as well as the Federal Accountability Act, and his opposition to the Kyoto Protocol which means it added about 1 kb of text and one paragraph with two more sources

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More to the point, it's important that we not provide readers with misleading statements. If we simply state that "the Conservative plan will allow Canada to reach its Kyoto targets by 2025", readers who are unfamiliar with the Kyoto schedule might assume that Harper's government has decided to

3026:

My main gripe is that why do you prefer stuff like "behind schedule" (in describing Baird's revised plan) and "falls short of expectations" in McGuinty, as I don't exactly see it as constructive synthesis. Again, I used the term "considerably less critical" because David dismissed it out of hand

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relevant, since the auto emissions is part of the whole Conservative plan, and that is where Dalton did influence the federal Tories. Furthermore, I'm prepared to expand that section since the columnist makes a point between opposition critics and governing, using David and Dalton as a contrast.

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Reasons: I don't think anyone would dispute that the federal study cited by Baird is worthy of mention in this article. GoldDragon's edit, however, seems to use the study to validate the Conservative government's position on Kyoto, while also adding unnecessary information about Don Drummond's

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obligation to get this discussion away from public consumption as quickly as possible. Like it or not, sexuality is still a sensitive matter that we have to treat with utmost "self-identification in an airtight source or nothing at all" discretion — vegetarianism simply isn't in the same league.

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user with no established edit history. So we what we really have is 80 per cent against inclusion (which is more than good enough for any normal definition of consensus on Knowledge), a discussion that's already been open for more than the standard week and really doesn't have any insightful new

920:

I don't see why there is a dispute over what the source "says". The print edition is very clear: John Baird is gay. Assuming there is no retraction posted by the publication either in print or on their website (which there isn't), there is no evidence that the publication has "walked back". Just

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To allow for these changes to be made, I am putting the article on hold for a period of up to seven days, after which it may be failed without further notice. Also, please note that this is only my preliminary review and that I still have to look over certain things (such as making sure all the

1579:

Here are my suggestions for improving the balance of the “Provincial politics” section of the article. If we can get consensus on these changes, I’ll make them, and then we can review the revised article to see if more changes are needed. Please place your comments in each sub-section. Thanks.

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chief economist Don Drummond. Drummond, who has been consulted by political parties of all stripes, said that the "economic cost would be at least as deep as the recession in the early 1980s", agreeing with the results of a study compiled by the environment department. Drummond dismissed the

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Baird's proposal has been met with approval from Canada's oilpatch executives, who described them as the toughest emission regulations in the world and who feared that more stringent standards would stiffle oil sands exploration. Members of opposition parties have criticized the government's

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I could add that (i) the sentence, "Drummond dismissed the opposition measure as unworkable", makes little sense in isolation, (ii) the context of Drummond's statement to Baird is surely worth mentioning, (iii) David McGuinty's specific criticisms of the federal study are rather significant,

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Well, "considerably" adequately reflects their views towards it, unless you want to go into detail about how David dismissed it entirely... At the same time, considerable does not mean "extreme" but the differences are nonetheless significant; both brothers are not on the same page.

1605:“During a televised debate in early 1996, Baird acknowledged that his government's privatization policies would likely result in lower wages for workers, but argued this would be balanced out by lower prices for consumers. REF Thomas Walkom, "Tories would trade good jobs for bad", 2257:

We can thank her successor, John Baird, for letting the parsimony shine through. Harris himself underlined this yesterday. We shouldn't be focussing on how few got workfare jobs, he said, but how many lost their welfare cheques. So much for the best social assistance program ever

1525:

This a long article and could probably use some trimming. I think many of the political bios are getting off-track with too much criticism of minor things. The "OPSEU member" incident jumps out as an example. And some of the things like Hydrozilla, etc. could probably go too.

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Yeah, when you go the sources, the evidence amounts to his having been known to eat at a gay restaurant, his attendance at gay pride events, and the fact that everyone "knows" he's gay. Even if we accept the proposition that someone else could out him, that hasn't happened yet.

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the actual truth of the statement. I trust that you're familiar with the persistent yet entirely unverifiable rumours swirling around Stephen and Laureen Harper's marriage, as well, but in the absence of reliable media sourcing it's not Knowledge's job to wade into that morass

1048:

Outing people is not what Knowledge is here for, and a one-line passing bit of snark about John Baird in an article about Jaime Watt really isn't a good source regardless of whether there's a print retraction or a web retraction or no retraction at all. And honestly, why is it

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Reasons: The fact that the federal government plans to reach its Kyoto commitments several years behind schedule is a point of some significance. Leaving out this information could confuse some readers into believing that the government is still pursuing its Kyoto targets.

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I am speculating to point out that there may be any number of reasons why the word 'gay' was omitted from the online article. My explanation may be just as valid as yours, but the point is you can't assume that the omission is because the information in the print article is

844:). Whether it was an aside or the subject of the article is not relevant; the allegation was made by a reputable, verifiable source in print. There's no evidence to indicate that the source has "walked back" on this statement, either. There is no retraction on the website.-- 3103:

Second, the journalists cited above have noted that the Harper government's plan will allow Canada to reach its Kyoto targets 8-13 years behind schedule. Editing this to read "the Harper government's plan will allow Canada to reach its Kyoto targets" doesn't seem entirely

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I agree that there does seeem to be some other reference to support this before being in the article. I find it deeply disturbing and homophobic though that one would consider archiving this portion of the discussion without archiving much older sections of the Talk Page.

1107:"mistake". And responding directly to points as they're raised is hardly the same thing as "changing your argument every time it's criticized" — I've made the same three core points over and over again through this entire discussion. And the only body on Knowledge that has 3563:." under "Government backbencher" is somewhat POV and should be backed up with an objective fact. For example, did he gain a large majority of the vote? That could explain "without difficulty." Without a fact, and certainly without a citation, it seems somewhat subjective. 1539:

that Baird done in his provincial career is negatively criticized here, particularly by the Toronto Star. The Harris gov't policies were controversial, no doubt, but one would get the impression that it was all bad, which is misleading as Harris wanted to cut the deficit.

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I don't think self-identification is anywhere on BLP. We can worry about gossip and promoting speculation, but we aren't doing anyone any favors if we refuse to add material to an article because the subject would rather (in the abstract or on the concrete) we didn't.

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shortly after his appointment. The NDP has identified climate change and the environment as key priorities to be addressed by parliament. Layton has said that the Conservatives will need to address environmental concerns in their 2007 budget to receive support from the

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put in the print version could expose it to accusations of libel or that it has invaded Baird's privacy. Either way, Knowledge should not make the mistake that the NOW mag print version made. I don't think that even the editors of Frank magazine would describe it as a

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Sorry to restore this ... but someone objected to me adding the comment in the archive, so I've had to restore the discussion. Though archiving a discussion that's still active isn't right. Particularly when discussions that have been here for years are untouched.

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critically important to you to have the article talk about his sexuality that you're willing to get into an edit war over it? Seriously, I'm a gay man who's spectacularly uninterested in protecting or defending closeted gay politicians who won't come out — and even

3737: 2634:. Gore responded that his comments were made to encourage the Harper government to participate in the Kyoto process, and said that Baird had "mischaracterized" his words by presenting them out of context. Baird has said that his comments were not misrepresentation. 2638:

Reason: I would tend to think that a public dispute between Canada's Environment Minister and the most famous environmental celebrity in North America is worthy of inclusion (especially given their subsequent tiff over the Conservative environmental proposal).

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don't know why Knowledge would rely on a single newspaper article on this point, especially when the publication's online version has chosen to omit the point, and most importantly, when the subject of the article has not identified himself as gay in the media.

162:. As for "what Knowledge stands for", it does not stand for outing public figures' sexual orientations against their wishes. This is pretty open and shut: there is no place for tabloid-sourced speculation on people's sexual orientation in Knowledge articles. 2566:. All Conservative MPs who were present in the House, including Baird, voted against the motion, which passed with the support of the three opposition parties. Baird is a vocal opponent of the Protocol, which he argues would bring about an "economic collapse". 951:

of the reasoning behind it, where you say one thing and then back off from it afterward. It doesn't only cover retractions or corrections; it means "said one thing in one place and then got skittish about repeating it in another place" too. And you're the one

4927:, CBC News, 26 April 2007, 19:35. Some details of Baird's proposal were accidentally leaked to Liberal opposition two days earlier, when a fax from Baird's office was sent to the wrong address. See Jack Aubry, "Misdialed fax number was the start of it all", 3047:

However, under the Conservative government's new climate-change plan, the goal of reducing Canada's greenhouse-gas output to 6 per cent below 1990 levels – the targets established in the Kyoto accord – would not be reached until 2025. That's 13 years behind

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the visibility of LGBT topics on Knowledge — for one thing, I spent a big chunk of last week working on new articles about the new openly gay politicians who were elected to state legislatures in the US election of November 6, and for another, I fervently

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Thus far, we have three active, longstanding editors (administrators, in fact, though that has no particular bearing on the weight of their opinions) advocating that the information be omitted. On the other side, we have some drive by I.P.s, a borderline

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I decided to review my changes around the time of the last election, in order to ensure that I was providing a fair account of Baird's statements and positions. Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently thorough with this process, but that's an argument for another

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and trucks, we live in a continental market – not a national market, and certainly not a provincial market." McGuinty said the Conservatives' environmental plan could have gone further but described the auto emissions part of the plan as "very sensible".

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Drummond. Drummond, who has been consulted by political parties of all stripes, added that the "economic cost would be at least as deep as the recession in the early 1980s", agreeing with the results of a study compiled by the environment department.

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The "2001-02," "Minister responsible for Children" and "Chief Government Whip" sections should combined — if not all three of them, then at least two of them. Right now, they're too short to all deserve their own headings. Alternatively, they could be

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Again, the quote you provided says absolutely nothing about Baird's sexual orientation. It says that he attended a dinner put on by Egale, which hardly makes him gay. As for Frank, it's a gossip rag that clearly doesn't meet the standard required by

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Baird's proposal has been met with approval from Canada's oilpatch executives, who described them as the toughest emission regulations in the world, and who feared that more stringent standards would stiffle oil sands exploration. Ontario Premier

3485:. Specifically, it must adequately summarize all the major points in the article and, for an article of this size, that will require at least two full paragraphs, most likely three. For example, it currently mentions nothing about his early life. 2448:

The opposition parties drew a connection between the issues, which may be sufficient grounds for us to mention their reaction in this context. I can understand the objection, though, and I realize that the wording may appear leading to some

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opposition members criticized Baird's spending decision: none objected to new money for shelters, but many thought that the government was pursuing a flawed strategy by not including funds for affordable housing under the same (metaphorical)

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And I am sure that there were media reports endorsing workfare and its implementation. I do not think that these media reports merit mention in this article, which is a biography of Baird, not an article on workfare. I recommend that this be

2921:, who also wrote a private letter to Baird arguing that the "economic cost would be at least as deep as the recession in the early 1980s". Opposition parliamentarians dismissed the report as a scare tactic, while Liberal Environment Critic 4589:

which actually satisfied our BLP rules, because he never actually responded to it in a public fashion either. And guess what? We don't go anywhere near the subject in our article about him, either. And then there's the good half dozen

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applies there too, so I'm not sure why there is necessarily any better than here - neither's Google indexed, which is important. Anyway, I'd suggest that once we have this resolved, we just blank or archive the offending discussions.

2598:

It might be possible to restructure the "Environment Minister" section, so as to have all of the Kyoto material in a single sequence of paragraphs. GoldDragon's wording, however, is not suitable for inclusion one way or the other.

1613:– This pops up out of nowhere and with no context. I do not think that this one remarks merits inclusion in the article. A Knowledge article about a person should not document everything he/she ever said. I recommend that this be 285:

rules as the articles are — any statement that couldn't be made in the article without violating BLP can quite validly be removed from the talk page for the same reason, which is the main reason why I started the discussion about

2097:

Just how many welfare recipients are actually working for their cheques? Baird couldn't, or wouldn't, respond. When the questions kept coming, an aide abruptly ended the press conference and a red-faced Baird scurried out of the

1755:“Baird opposed the Harris government's plan to amalgamate the city of Ottawa with neighbouring municipalities, but was unable to prevent it from passing the legislature in 1999 REF Dan Nolan, "Tory MPPs talk merger with caucus", 554:

over if the source making the statement gets it wrong or if the subject is determined to stay in the closet at all costs. So insisting on airtight sources for describing somebody as gay on Knowledge isn't really about protecting

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including one that includes virtually all the first two lead paragraphs. The broken citations were also replaced and/or resourced. Now the ref numbers are now different since at least two more were added during the changes.--

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correct. (The fact that a considerable number of people claim to have insider knowledge is irrelevant, if we can't properly verify that their knowledge is actually correct. As I noted before, "everybody" used to "know" that

2787:

Holy cow. That entire edit seems to have one goal in mind: to make Baird and the Conservative Party look bad. Maybe that wasn't the intent, but every single modification casts the party in a more negative light than before.

2085:

The press conference would have been a non-event if Baird had stopped there. But he went on to attribute the government's success largely to its "mandatory work for welfare" program, and that opened the door to reporters'

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Reasons: Dalton McGuinty's comments (as cited in GoldDragon's edit) have primarily to do with a separate matter. I would not object to some reference to Premier McGuinty's response, but the wording should be improved.

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one thing ... but trying to hide the discussion itself? All we are discussing are the merits of various sources. How is this any different than the section that has been kept in the talk page of him being a vegetarian?

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rules are extremely strict for a reason...or, more accurately, two reasons. For one thing, our articles can be damaging to people's lives and reputations if they're not very carefully written — and for two, we can get

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to make it relevant by talking about it on the record — but until he's actually done so, Knowledge is not a gossip tabloid or an investigative journalism project; we don't quote insider sources which claim unverified

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No point in having to mention the fax...I don't think its significant. Second, "behind schedule" is POV because there was no previous legislation that adhered to any schedule. I've implemented an alternative wording.

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Okay, nevermind, I just read the relevant part of the Style Manual. I personally feel it is a stupid policy ; nevertheless, I will abide by it until such time as it is changed or I stop caring. Whichever comes first.

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I'm somewhat puzzled by these responses. In the first instance, "Falls short of expectations" is a direct quote, while "says it could have gone further" is a paraphrase. Why you'd prefer the latter is not entirely

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the original print article any less accurate or reputable, but simply giving in to opposing views on whether outing is appropriate. Until NOW clarifies that the print article was inaccurate, it stands as a source.--

903:(not speculate) what the discrepancy between the two versions of the article is all about, not me. And incidentally, in your last "restate it as an allegation rather than a fact" revision, you readded the category. 442:

publicly acknowledges his sexuality. One throwaway line that calls him a gay conservative in an article about that's actually about something else wouldn't be a sufficient source even if the publication in question

2454:

By way of another compromise, could I suggest that we include a reference to the opposition parties' criticism (re: affordable housing) in a separate sentence, without a direct link to the homelessness strategy?

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from public consumption, and as close as possible to the Top Secret Salon of Knowledge Insiders, as possible under the circumstances. But I have no objection to blanking or archiving the discussion at conclusion.

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routinely advertised by their daily behaviour, most obviously when they talk about and/or photo-op their wife and kids. So while it's true that we don't need to make use of the exact phrase "openly straight", we

190:

Per the discussion on the Canadian Wikipedians Noticeboard (in which you've participated), the hard copy apparently does say "gay conservative". In light of that, I think it's telling that the website doesn't.

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policies, and far too many cases where people have tried to add unverifiable "insider knowledge" about article topics' private lives that was either inflammatory or entirely wrong — so no matter what I might

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People also sue over allegations of heterosexual affairs. After reading over the policies I agree it's against Knowledge policy to print that he is gay, but I think it is wholly within policies (especially

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housing, but I recognize that that is my opinion, and that others can argue that you can separate the two issues. Because there will not be agreement, I would leave the reference to affordable housing out.

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Aside for possibly the trivia section, this article looks well written, well sourced, detailed and quite up to date that it should be considered for a GA candidate. Anyone agrees that it should go to GA

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headline was indeed pointless, conveying nothing more profound than the fact that different people held different views about the same thing. With the "$ 26 million" sentence, I was trying to indicate

2202:

There is good reason for this. The evidence is becoming overwhelming that workfare is little more than a veneer giving dubious respectability to the reality that people in need are being denied support.

1679:– I think that his words speak for themselves. We do not need the opinions of a couple of reporters here about his ability to handle questions. I recommend that “Both articles… difficult questions.” be 209:

properly (I plead guilty to skimming) ... I guess Bearcat noticed that the print edition identified Baird as gay, but the web edition doesn't. Hmm, now that's a dilemna ... which takes precedence?

2755:

Al Gore's accusation of fraud was the most widely reported aspect of his criticism, and merits inclusion accordingly. I would be prepared to include Baird's specific criticisms of Gore's record.

1829:– Are we just ragging the puck here? We’ve already shown what a stupid move this was with Keith Norton’s comments, do we need contrition from Baird here? I think this is not needed and should be 447:

dialed the line back when reprinting the exact same article in another venue. Not because the publication isn't a reliable source, or because print media isn't acceptable — but because the line

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Reason: Layton's comments are no longer relevant, given that the NDP have decided not to support the budget. Baird's meeting with Layton is not, in and of itself, of encyclopedic importance.

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I'm not convinced. Numerous politicians and publications - both gay and straight - have publicly identified John Baird as being gay. Surely the standard of proof has long since been reached.

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If both parties are interested, I will try to mediate the remaining issues over the next few days to try to put an end to the edit war. I don't have much time at the moment, but I will try.

1763:– Individual members of legislative assemblies are very rarely able to prevent passage of legislation. This is an unreasonable standard to set through mention here. I recommend that this be 4657:

for stuff like this. Which is why we insist on airtight, self-identification-only sourcing for the sexual orientation of a living person — it's got at least as much to do with covering our

2158:"The best social assistance program ever created is a real job, and this plan will generate hundreds of thousands of those," the Common Sense Revolution declared in 1995. Who could argue? 2063:

That became evident on Monday as John Baird, the rookie minister of community and social services, held an ill-advised press conference to trumpet the latest drop in the welfare caseload.

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of homosexuality belongs in the article in the first place, when our policies actually require us to wait until the person openly acknowledges their own orientation on the public record.

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The previous minister of community and social services, Janet Ecker, managed to float through her entire time in the portfolio without any workfare number ever sticking to her for long.

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I agree, just because someone says he's gay is no reason to add it into Knowledge. Is it really that important anyway, we wouldn't have another politician listed as "openly straight".

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Not really. The actual issue is that in order to categorize and describe someone as being gay in an encyclopedia article, what we normally require is that the person openly identifies

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You said we can't include allegations of someone's gay identity, but we can include allegations of gay sexual conduct. My point is that "gay" can refer to either identity or conduct.--

128:

Conspicuously absent from that quote is anything about his being gay. If John Baird wants to tell the world that he's gay, he can. If he doesn't, it's none of our damned business.

3546:"All three opposition parties have demanded that the environment becomes one of the main points of the government's Trone Speech in the 2007 fall session." (Environmental strategy) 1345:

Why this this archived within 15-minutes of me placing it here? Doesn't that violate Knowledge standards on when something is archived? Especially when no clear consensus exists.

780:) doesn't distinguish between allegations about identity or behaviour. Any allegation may be printed if it has been published in a source that meets the verifiability guidelines.-- 143:

marriage. I'd be happier if this wasn't mentioned here, as it makes it more difficult to make them out to be intolerant. But surely that goes against what Knowledge stands for.

1211:). Unless I see the balance of opinions shift meaningfully towards there being a real controversy in the next twenty-four hours, I'm going to close and archive this discussion. 3568:

Several paragraphs contain only one or two sentences. These should be merged with surrounding paragraphs or expanded if you feel that they're distinct enough to be on their own.

1731:

The proposal was not to delete the reference, only to delete the descriptive sentence that followed it: "Both articles were extremely critical...." I'll restore the reference.

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count in establishing consensus, it's currently four to one for exclusion — apart from you, everybody else arguing the "out him" side in this discussion is an anonymous IP or a

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There's nothing silly about it, either. No matter how many people you can source as saying that John Baird is gay, it does not matter — until you can provide a source in which

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Problem is that Suzuki and Gore are saying exactly the same thing, with more detail from Suzuki, so having both of their responses in full doesn't add any salient information.

1821:“When campaigning for federal office five years later, Baird acknowledged that the syringe event demonstrated "immature judgement" on his part.REF"Baird is the clear choice", 1707:

reporters. When I expanded the article in January 2006, I thought this was significant enough to mention. If others disagree now, I won't object to the sentence's removal.

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argued that the study was misleading, saying that it did not properly examine international emission trading and ignored jobs to be created through the "green economy".

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Mike Harris came to office in 1995 on a wave of parsimony garbed in tough love. Workfare was the hot-button word that went straight to the suit pocket nearest the heart.

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record really isn't Knowledge's role. It's not so much homophobia on our part as it is an acknowledgement that there's unfortunately still far more homophobia among our

4096:

Yes, it has. His colleague, Conservative candidate Pamela Taylor, outed him in an interview on CBC radio on Feb. 2, 2010. This was then reported by La Presse <<

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said that the plan as a whole "falls short of Canadians' expectations", although he endorsed Baird's strategy for curbing greenhouse gas emissions from motor vehicles

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Trivia sections are not acceptable for Good Articles — the information contained there should either be incorporated into the body of the article or removed entirely.

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In April 2007, Baird produced a federal study supported by five independent economists to support his approach to the Kyoto Protocol. Among the five economists was

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This article contains next to no personal information, like marital status, upbringing, parents, etc. A paragraph or two of personal information would be helpful.

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The only caution I'd add at this stage is that the article hasn't been updated for a few months. Once that's taken care of, it might be suitable for GA status.

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I'm willing to accept GZ's recommendations. However, I'm also going to suggest what I hope will be a "constructive synthesis" for the Dalton McGuinty paragraph:

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As for your point about "identity" versus "conduct", you can't really say whether the allegation was about Baird's "gay" identity or his "gay" sexual behaviour.--

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with the label in question, and not if he doesn't — because again, as I've noted before, for Knowledge's purposes what we're interested in is an article topic's

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Was this criticism echoed across the political spectrum, as this column appeared to be singled out as it was particularly critical? Also as pointed out earlier,

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The policy of requiring an individual to self-identify only applies to categorization of the article, not to allegations about their sexuality (which fall under

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is a very lengthy document which contains a multitude of information. Perhaps another user could highlight some section(s) which clarify this situation for us.

1771:“Baird opposed the Harris government's plan to amalgamate the city of Ottawa with neighbouring municipalities, which was approved by the Legislature in 1999.” 794:

I didn't say it did; I was responding to an apples-and-oranges comparison between "Person X is gay" and "Person Y had sex with a hooker". And again: the issue

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as such. And it's especially not sufficient if the exact same article exists in two different versions which differ in their inclusion of the word in question.

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Allan Woods, "Kyoto study raises alarm; Tories' dire economic warnings about swift emissions cuts dismissed by opposition as 'shock and awe' communications",

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Allan Woods, "Kyoto study raises alarm; Tories' dire economic warnings about swift emissions cuts dismissed by opposition as 'shock and awe' communications",

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argued that the study was misleading, as it did not properly factor international emission trading and ignored jobs to be created through the "green economy".

1924:

move. At one stage, Baird described Curling's job performance as an "absolute disgrace". REF Rob Ferguson, "New premium won't be listed separately on pay",

1403:

Removed POV since no specific examples of POV are given. Please feel free to add any positive things observers have said about him. I'll see what I can add.

917:

My apologies, I simply hit 'undo' and made edits (which reverted back to what the original person added in -- I didn't know he had added categories as well).

4476:

When media and other elected politicians are openly describing Baird as gay it becomes a bit silly for Knowledge to suppress that information as was done

3039:(i) I prefer the term "behind schedule" (referring to Baird's emission targets in relation to the Kyoto Protocol) because it's the language used in the 2074:"Another 15,638 people left welfare in July," Baird boasted. "That brings the total since our government was first elected in 1995 to more than 412,000." 419:

that the subject is gay if the subject themselves has never actually said so on the public record — for example, no matter what other people say about

3124:

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level.

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sex scandal — so if we had jumped the gun based on common knowledge without waiting for his own words, we would have been wrong. We need one or more

4058:. We generally require sources in which the topic is actually on record identifying himself as gay; it would then be relevant because he'd chosen to 4395:

as a gay man, outing people against their will isn't our job. (And for the record, I can name you at least half a dozen other political figures who

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gay publication.... I feel like this is an anti-gay bias against gay media -- (implying that gay newspapers are not serious enough to be reliable)

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McGuinty said the Conservatives' environmental plan could have gone further but described the auto emissions part of the plan as "very sensible".

1982:“A number of media reports subsequently criticized both the principle and the implementation of workfare in Ontario. REF One political columnist, 4594:

Canadian politicians — some big names, trust me, including a provincial premier (and I don't mean Hatfield, that ship's already sailed) — who we

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here because it explains what David McG’s criticism actually is, instead of providing a vague “it was flawed”. Also, the link to TD Bank follows

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That is getting into POV there since "the most environmental celebrity" is your opinion. Ending up, it results in a "he said she said" incident.

2288:. Also, what about the rest of the news sources across the political spectrum? And there must have been benefits to the workfare program too... 4629: 3704:, but it keeps getting deleted. Maybe there's an appropriate place in the article this could be re-added, now that there's no trivia section? -- 4692:

sense, he is not "gay" in the sense that's encyclopedically relevant no matter how homosexually aroused his dangly bits may happen to be. We

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that the people who believe he's gay are just plain wrong — unlikely though that may be, Knowledge still has to wait until we can properly

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The are problems with some of the prose and the repetition of words. For example, under "2000," you use the verb "announced" and awful lot.

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Shortly after his return from Paris, the Liberal opposition brought forward a non-binding motion for Canada to renew its commitment to the

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Shortly after his return from Paris, the Liberal opposition brought forward a non-binding motion for Canada to renew its commitment to the

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overall environmental plan "falls short of Canadians' expectations", but described the auto emissions part of the plan as "very sensible".

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The Tories' 1999 platform said "we're proud to have helped close to 400,000 get off welfare and put their lives back on track since 1995."

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of what form of media it appears in. The rule for identifying someone as LGBT in our articles is that the subject has publicly identified

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was openly gay too — you could even "reference" it to third parties saying so in published sources — and just look what happened there.

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what kind of sexual activity merely happens to make their naughty bits tingle. So until you can add a source in which Baird is quoted

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It's a sensitive and complicated issue, I grant you — but it isn't really heterosexism. The issue is that assertions of homosexuality

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There appears to be something of a campaign going on now, with regard to Russia, that is urging John Baird to come out as gay. Link:

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why we can't just sit back and wait for him to address it on the record in his own time, but instead keep trying to use Knowledge to

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In other words, I was attempting to mitigate past criticism instead of amplifying it. Perhaps this didn't work quite as I intended.

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as LGBT. Even if 500 newspapers across Canada all ran a photo of Baird making out with Adam Lambert on page one tomorrow morning, we

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http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/quebec-canada/politique-canadienne/201002/03/01-945718-le-ministre-baird-sorti-du-placard.php

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Behind schedule is misleading, as there was no existing planned schedule, so that is why I say "takes x years longer than Kyoto".

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Drummond's credentials are important to show that he is not being partisan. Second, the study is not being misused in any sense.

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say that Larry Craig got caught cruising in a public washroom. We just can't add a gay-related category, or say that the person

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As of July, only 6,000 people were actually on workfare assignments. These jobs last six months, then someone else gets a turn.

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because a publication fails to reprint their article word for word on their website does not make the original article false.--

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it relevant. As things stand right now, however, we simply don't have a satisfactory source that would satisfy the demands of

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Here are my comments on the major issues. There were some other changes that I have no addressed that seem more minor to me.

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And as I've continually pointed out above: Knowledge does not, strictly speaking, care about his private sex life — we care

3536:"Both Baird and Flaherty left provincial politics in 2005 to campaign for the federal House of Commons." (Opposition member) 2670:

eight to thirteen years behind schedule. Unlike the Kyoto Protocal, the government plan does not set hard caps on emissions.

4550:

else's word on the matter goes into Knowledge. That's the rules, and they're not up for debate: we describe and categorize

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is the "default" setting that's automatically assumed in the absence of an explicit statement to the contrary, so it's not

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This is vague, and therefore of little value. Drummond’s objections are better addressed in the following paragraph. I say

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Critics argued that the new Conservative measures were similar to measures introduced by the Liberals in their 2005 budget.

1504:

It may not come as a complete surprise that I disagree (although I have been meaning to revise this article for a while).

4403:, but aren't because they've never spoken about their sexuality on the public record.) It will be relevant if and when he 3856:

as being gay — not because it's shameful, but because for our purposes, what's relevant in an encyclopedia article is the

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Yikes. Didn't even see the actual text in there. Someone removed it in any case. Like I said, we cannot use this text per

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I'm not certain where I stand on this one. Baird's first press conference was given extremely poor reviews from both the

4139:, not to be a source of political insider gossip. It used to be unsourceable "everybody knows" conventional wisdom that 3602:

Since I forgot to check this for a while, I will extend the hold so that these last minor changes can be made. Cheers,

3063:(ii) "Falls short of expectation" is a direct quote from Dalton McGuinty. I can't see why it would be objectionable. 2224:

This represents little more than 2 per cent of the welfare caseload. Last year's annual total was less than 5 per cent.

5042:

Andrew Thomson, "Green plan 'a total fraud': Gore; Criticism prompts Baird to attack former VP's own climate record",

4991:

Andrew Thomson, "Green plan 'a total fraud': Gore; Criticism prompts Baird to attack former VP's own climate record",

1474:

Why doesn't Mr. Baird have a website? How are his constituants supposed to contact him? Doesn't seem very organized..

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against media outlets over the allegations that makes it encyclopedia-worthy, not the mere fact that the allegations

1675:, 17 August 1999, p. 1. Both articles were extremely critical of Baird's ability to handle difficult questions./REF” 4577:

Think back a few foreign affairs ministers, in fact, and you'll hit another one — you know who, trust me — who was

3948:

that says this. However it's not a simple document. Perhaps you can highlight which section you think means this.

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particularly given that Baird's views on the international carbon market are referenced elsewhere in the section.

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What, the article in Frank magazine wasn't enough? There was also the recent issue of Now that had the paragraph "

4511:

way makes any judgement as to the veracity or lack thereof of the allegations, and it wouldn't be in the article

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GoldDragon's assertion may well be accurate, but he should provide an accurate citation if he wants it included.

1439:? Members of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada are entitled to the prefix, unlike regular MPs. Why remove it? 85: 4570:

else's unresponded-to allegations. I've said it before, but it bears repeating: "everybody" used to "know" that

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encyclopedia article about him. I think that suggests we exclude here, especially given the sources we have. --

1058:

don't think the source is good enough. That's not Bearcat-as-gay-man speaking, because Bearcat-as-gay-man would

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Looks good, I'm ready to pass it for GA Status now! Congratulations, and thank you for your hard work! Cheers,

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If other readers believe that the line only serves to makes Baird look worse, I won't object to its deletion.

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http://dailyxtra.com/toronto/news/come-the-closet-want-help-russian-gays-activists-tell-john-baird?market=210

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The Toronto Star reports that McGuinty says it could have gone further. So no reason not to stick with that.

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WORKFARE IS the Tories' dirty little secret. The truth is that the much-ballyhooed program is mostly a fraud.

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Representatives of other parties have claimed that these are scare tactics and Liberal environmental critic

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Representatives of other parties have claimed that these are scare tactics and Liberal environmental critic

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when it published the same article to the only venue where 99.99999999999 per cent of the entire world will

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don't out even though there are Knowledge contributors who have more knowledge than we can properly source.

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Note that the claim is that their lives are "on track." The "real jobs" have disappeared from the rhetoric.

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And, lest you mistake this for an anti-gay thing, I'm an openly gay man who is quite actively involved in

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for a person to formally "come out" as such — despite that, the fact that a straight person is straight

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There is no personal life section, but he is gay. Should this be included (provided we can source it)?

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http://www.xtra.ca/public/National/OPEN_SECRET_Conservative_cabinet_minister_John_Baird_outed-8194.aspx

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I did go a bit overboard there on the content when I added it. I agree that that section can be cut.

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couldn't describe or categorize him as gay on Knowledge until such time as we could prove that Baird

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while remaining associate minister for Francophone Affairs. His replacement in Social Services was

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The leaked fax was a significant news story, and merits a passing reference in the footage section.

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and the three reasons Bearcat mentioned (especially the first, and even more especially the third).

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In April 2007, Baird produced a federal study supported by five independent economists, including

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d. And Baird ran a ministry, not a department. He runs a department now. (I've made this change.)

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James Stevenson, "Oilpatch calls new greenhouse gas emission regulations 'toughest' in the world"

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James Stevenson, "Oilpatch calls new greenhouse gas emission regulations 'toughest' in the world"

4925:

James Stevenson, "Oilpatch calls new greenhouse gas emission regulations 'toughest' in the world"

3864:

associates themselves with, not the raw physiological responses of their body to sexual stimuli.

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as we are dealing in rumours here: Baird has never outed himself. I've removed those categories.

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Members of opposition parties have criticized the government's abandonment of Kyoto goals, while

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I think his comments on the vote mobs have become notable, showing disconnection with the youth.

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Knowledge's policy on describing and categorizing people as gay in our articles, as clarified at

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Recently, the Conservatives' position has been backed by five independent economists, including

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as saying that Canada was "showing moral authority to the rest of the world" in its policies on

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So if there is no retraction in the next print issue, will you concede that the source stands?--

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it, not in the article pending evidence that would disqualify it. The burden of proof is on the

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We do not need the opinions of a couple of reporters here about his ability to handle questions

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were also in attendance, so Knowledge really can't make the leap that attending an Egale event

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False comparison. Tom Cruise's article discusses actual, specific, concrete, properly sourced

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routinely add information to our articles which clarifies and confirms their heterosexuality.

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Update: I've made an effort to create a workable compromise. Let's see if it's acceptable.

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In mid-February 2007, Baird defended his government's environmental record by quoting former

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having to debate the same unsatisfactory references over and over again? Is there an actual

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External links should be below the footnotes, or at least below the election results tables.

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Finally, "considerably" could be read as POV, given that both brothers opposed the accord.

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has publicly acknowledged that they're gay. It's not sufficient for a third party to simply

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Not that it's a requirement for GA, but have there been any attempts to get a free picture?

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It was already noted earlier in this discussion that among established editors whose views

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is that the statement in question isn't actually a substantive allegation — it's merely an

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In case you're not too clear on this, I'm a gay NDPer, so I have absolutely no interest in

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asses from the possibility of a libel suit as it does with "protecting" the article topic.

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citations work etc.), so there may be more to do after I review it a second time. Cheers,

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because it provides additional detail that is worth keeping. CJC’s version is more vague.

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You may be right but we can't just copy an image from Baird's website without permission.

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indicate that the Conservative plan offers tax credits rather than direct subsidies, and

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And by the way, content in the print publication would have to be corrected or retracted

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He wasn’t the only conservative at Egale’s dinner. Also in attendance was MP John Baird.

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Rob Gillies, "Canadian Environment Minister paints dire scenario for Kyoto compliance",

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Rob Gillies, "Canadian Environment Minister paints dire scenario for Kyoto compliance",

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wait until we can actually cite solid sources. I've seen far too many violations of our

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those things. Which isn't the same thing as one journalist merely making an unsupported

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Dennis Bueckert, "Environment minister shows no sign of compromise on Kyoto Protocol",

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Dennis Bueckert, "Environment minister shows no sign of compromise on Kyoto Protocol",

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indicate that critics drew attention to similar measures in the 2005 Liberal budget.

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done. This would only be significant if the gov't reversed or fell short on a promise.

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as gay to be described and categorized as such on here; Knowledge's job is to rely on

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people they can be reliably sourced to have had relationships with or been married to.

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So, that link is now dead (way to go Maclean's), but a quick Google search turns up

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Aside from lacking a citation, the sentence "He was re-elected without difficulty in

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for much of the criticism of the workfare program, including Urquhart's piece in the

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Okay, I'll take that as permission to include the allegation, with citation to NOW.--

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stripes, too. It doesn’t mean that the politicians have listened to either of them.

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chief economist Don Drummond has described the opposition measures as "unworkable".

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gay is, by definition, an allegation of identity, not behaviour, because it doesn't

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something. It's not just an allegation in either of their cases — it's already been

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Maria Babbage, "Federal environment minister says he didn't misrepresent Al Gore",

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Unlike the Kyoto Protocol, the government plan does not set hard caps on emissions.

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difficulty determining the limited areas where Baird's views coincide with my own.)

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it to, which really isn't the same thing as the decision already having been made.

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this article to say, having a real, airtight source for it has to take precedence.

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As funny as I think it is, adding the LGBT and Gay Politician categories violate

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are the types of questions that can get you started on how to expand that section.

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Sources say that Conservative plan offers tax credits instead of direct subsidies.

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Still prefer its exclusion entirely, as the opposition always points out what was

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butts. And heterosexuality isn't addressed the same way at all: we don't normally

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And incidentally, "the statement is permissible until proven otherwise" isn't how

96:

If there were sources, then yes, of course. But good luck finding a valid source.

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to the allegations in a public fashion, Knowledge can and will certainly discuss

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accept the protocol after all. Adding "behind schedule", removes the confusion.

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described the proposal as a "sham" with "weak targets". Former US vice president

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which I think is about the Liberal's private bill forcing Canada to respect the

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This article is very long and may need some serious pruning. Thoughts? Thanks,

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If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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Has somebody published an allegation somewhere about Baird's sexual behaviour?

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Michael Oliveira, "Tory green plan is a 'sham,' angry Suzuki tells minister",

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Michael Oliveira, "Tory green plan is a 'sham,' angry Suzuki tells minister",

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are a three from two years ago), and a single active editor in good standing (

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Paul Vieira and Claudia Cattaneo, "We can live with targets, business says",

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against media sources which published allegations about his sexuality. It in

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important for Knowledge to describe and categorize John Baird as gay that we

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I concur with the previous statement by Nfitz. I do not see anything in the

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Hah! I'm not assuming that it's false; actually, I know damn well that it's

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There's no "gay" in the sentence on the website, either. Ergo, walked back.

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I think that this discussion should be removed from the talk page quickly.

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Steven Chase, "Ottawa rolls out ‘validators' to bolster anti-Kyoto stand",

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Steven Chase, "Ottawa rolls out ‘validators' to bolster anti-Kyoto stand",

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Steven Chase, "Ottawa rolls out ‘validators' to bolster anti-Kyoto stand",

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Steven Chase, "Ottawa rolls out ‘validators' to bolster anti-Kyoto stand",

3971:, I realize that this is all still open to interpretation and I agree that 2302:

ran some critical pieces about workfare-in-practice around the same time.

1671:, 17 August 1999, A7 and Caroline Mallan, "Workfare stats elude minister", 1788:

Agree. Basically a benign change, and not particularly controversial.

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of established users discussing the issue as it arises. This discussion

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the subject of a lot of open chatter about his sexual orientation that

4156:, not the raw physiological responses of their body to sexual stimuli. 2718: 2627: 1103:. Which makes this all very interesting and curious indeed, but hardly 509:

words, the sentence in question simply is not good enough as a source.

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Could someone provide a source for the fact that he is a vegetarian?

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I don’t think old rumours belong in a Knowledge article. I propose to

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So most of the partisan attack from columnists is on the delete list.

4527:. That's not at all comparable to the situation here — if Baird ever 3719: 281:

I would note, for the record, that talk pages are just as subject to

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is not an unreliable source in principle; I use it extensively. But

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That still fails the criterion that a person has to have identified

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if the allegations had gone unresponded to — it's the fact that he

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Shoulda known somebody would pounce on it in three seconds flat...

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premature? I believe Point 5 is still under discussion as well.

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Yes, the left-leaning Toronto Star criticized the program, in two

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still something that people, rightly or wrongly, feel entitled to

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It doesn't matter how many sources you can add in which somebody

662:. The fact that we can publish properly sourced statements about 4842:

Mike de Souza, "Harper to ignore motion on reconfirming Kyoto",

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Mike de Souza, "Harper to ignore motion on reconfirming Kyoto",

738:"Allegations of gay sexual conduct" would entail allegations of 486:

of the article in the absence of evidence that would explicitly

5085:, 19 April 2007, 22:59; Susan Riley, "Green scare wears thin", 4827:, 19 April 2007, 22:59; Susan Riley, "Green scare wears thin", 3541:"and was signed into law four days later." (Accountability Act) 3070:

these issues; these, however, are matters for another debate.

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housing", or something along those lines, would be acceptable.

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Omitting sensitive information from one version of an article

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John Baird. But until such time as it can be shown that Baird

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References #8, #44, #71, #78, #101, #104 and #110 are broken.

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There must have been supportive articles in the media too...

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Provincial politics section: first round of suggested changes

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to agree with you on this — but Bearcat-as-Wikipedian simply

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really has no applicability to whether or not we can publish

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No, it really isn't the same thing at all. Haggard and Craig

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The introduction of "Community and Social Services minister"

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I'm going to argue that this particular reference should be

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Knowledge talk:Canadian Wikipedians' notice board#John Baird

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about what is or isn't going on in their private sex life.

2019:. Baird's debut performance as a cabinet minister was the 975:

doesn't mean anything. The simple reality is that we don't

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The point is moot. The Knowledge policy that applies here (

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say that Ted Haggard got caught with a male prostitute. We

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in which Baird is quoted on the record talking about his

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Allan Woods, "Tories push $ 1.5B in green initiatives",

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Allan Woods, "Tories push $ 1.5B in green initiatives",

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instead of conducting it here and listing it under RFC.

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sexual orientation, because that's the only way we can

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And adds the following paragraph later in the section:

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read the article — on the web, where the word "gay" is

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down to it Knowledge cares about an article subject's

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Thought that the picture before wasn't the best one.

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of walking-back. The phrase "walking back" refers to

438:

Again, what our policies require is proof that Baird

2387:And I apologize for the ministry/department error. 4894:"Al Gore says Canada's Tories misrepresented him", 4609:, in his own words coming out of his own mouth, or 3721:. They all link to the same story I did, though. -- 971:, so the lack of a correction or retraction on the 5029:Kevin Donovan, "Gore calls green plan a 'fraud'", 4978:Kevin Donovan, "Gore calls green plan a 'fraud'", 4672:identification or lack thereof. That is, until he 3508:The first paragraph under "Government backbencher" 3153:ACtually, I think it should a get a shot for GA.-- 2169:Four years later, the claims are more circumspect. 887:In the case of a dispute about what a source even 4343:was openly gay, too, until he got caught up in a 2235:It is interesting to even have a number, however. 4484:'s sexual orientation are noted in his article. 4322:words on the subject. Without those, it remains 3518:"He was not, but was demoted to the position of 2358:I'm not certain this analogy really works. The 482:works on Knowledge — a disputed statement stays 2471:Not overly concerned with the first few points. 1203:(besides this subject, the only other edits by 4363:A politician's sexual orientation is relevant 4054:The relevant policy on this is spelled out at 2696:My edit changes the following two paragraphs: 1066:, because the source just is not good enough. 822:source. And that's only if you accept that an 8: 3411:(images are tagged and non-free images have 2137:Here's another article from the same period: 2027:. (I'll see if I can find proof of this.) 4585:couldn't be properly confirmed in properly 1462:the section of the style book on honorifics 205:... oh, I just read the discussion over at 3878:Good retort. You've convinced me. Thanks, 2616:My edit includes the following paragraph: 2505:My edit substitutes GoldDragon's text -- 2484:My edit removes the following sentence: 2042:He's a selection from Urquhart's article: 1115:a decision on a situation like this is a 891:, the burden of proof is on the case for 754:sex with. Simply asserting that a person 4745:Retitled "Support for Oil Sands Project" 1591:(revised 13:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)) 742:sexual acts that he may or may not have 578:And I think you're misunderstanding: we 494:side of the discussion, not the exclude. 4764: 3917:hasn't, and that's all that counts per 2334:, 21 December 2000, 17:59 report. /REF” 1372:input being made anymore anyway, and a 4433:I mean, seriously. Is there an actual 223:The more conservative of the two, per 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 4605:asserts that John Baird is gay. It's 4401:Category:LGBT politicians from Canada 425:Ted "I didn't smoke the meth" Haggard 18:Talk:John Baird (Canadian politician) 7: 4648:Well, the thing is that Knowledge's 4535:, but we do not simply document the 4318:article still lacks is John Baird's 4314:isn't a reliable source — what that 1911:In the "Opposition member" section: 505:has spoken about the subject in his 328:Granted. But the difference is that 4700:affiliate themselves with the LGBT 4566:sexuality, and not on the basis of 762:any alleged behaviour on his part. 559:so much as it's about covering our 4539:of improperly sourced allegations. 3490:Some statements require citations: 3406:, where possible and appropriate. 960:exist — I'm merely saying that it 290:s Incredible Disappearing Word on 24: 5007:, CBC News, 26 April 2007, 19:35. 4943:, CBC News, 26 April 2007, 19:35. 4330:that the sources in question are 3503:in 1992." (Early life and career) 3499:degree in Political Studies from 2545:opposition measure as unworkable. 1435:Okay, so what's the problem with 810:have the opportunity to actually 4696:care about a person's choice to 3451: 3432: 3418: 3391: 3371: 3368:Fair representation without bias 3348: 3338: 3317: 3303: 3289: 3262: 3248: 3036:Let's take this point by point: 2910:said that the study was flawed. 2656:My edit changes this paragraph: 2532:My edit adjusts this paragraph: 1649:So we can move forward on this. 29: 4480:, particularly when rumours of 2554:said that the study was flawed. 814:it, meaning that there are two 4562:public statements about their 4263:Newfoundlander&Labradorian 3148:18:26, 29 September 2007 (UTC) 1919:were vocal critics of Speaker 455:for what our policies require 1: 4680:with the LGBT community in a 4546:says that John Baird is gay, 4463:18:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC) 4379:identification with the LGBT 4301:19:10, 21 November 2012 (UTC) 4152:identification with the LGBT 3481:The lead needs to conform to 2460:03:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC) 2442:13:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC) 2427:02:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC) 2411:21:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 2392:23:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 2351:14:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 2317:15:54, 24 February 2007 (UTC) 2307:00:34, 24 February 2007 (UTC) 2293:18:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC) 2277:00:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC) 2125:21:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 2104:05:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 2032:04:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 2008:14:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1967:23:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 1958:21:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 1949:13:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 1932:, 17 December 2004, A11./REF" 1899:21:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 1884:23:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1842:14:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1808:21:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 1793:22:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1780:14:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1759:, 30 November 1999, A01./REF” 1740:13:07, 27 February 2007 (UTC) 1727:21:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 1712:03:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 1692:14:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1654:21:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC) 1639:22:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1626:14:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1609:, 29 February 1996, A25./REF” 1589:14:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC) 1563:20:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1545:19:37, 20 February 2007 (UTC) 1531:09:05, 10 February 2007 (UTC) 1423:02:51, 31 December 2005 (UTC) 1408:00:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC) 1127:the decision — it's just not 4423:biographies of living people 4271:15:32, 12 October 2012 (UTC) 4239:14:26, 12 October 2012 (UTC) 4215:14:11, 12 October 2012 (UTC) 3770:00:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC) 3655:22:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC) 3642:21:40, 24 October 2007 (UTC) 3625:19:15, 24 October 2007 (UTC) 3607:15:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC) 3596:18:33, 13 October 2007 (UTC) 3452: 3433: 3419: 3392: 3372: 3349: 3339: 3318: 3304: 3290: 3263: 3249: 2298:I seem to remember that the 1990:, 18 August 1999, p. 1./REF” 1520:22:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC) 1469:06:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC) 1455:06:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC) 1444:06:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC) 1131:unfolding quite the way you 254:means that a person is gay. 4737:14:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC) 4718:19:42, 16 August 2013 (UTC) 4643:17:04, 11 August 2013 (UTC) 4623:03:17, 10 August 2013 (UTC) 4192:13:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC) 3958:19:48, 2 January 2011 (UTC) 3940:03:04, 2 January 2011 (UTC) 3909:02:46, 2 January 2011 (UTC) 3208:21:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 3187:21:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 3172:21:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 3162:20:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC) 3129:17:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC) 3017:Would this be acceptable? 2740:Dalton McGuinty's comments 2515:Reason: The cited article 1825:, 17 January 2006, B4./REF” 1509:06:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC) 1499:22:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC) 1485:18:17, 4 October 2006 (UTC) 1479:http://www.johnbaird.com/-- 979:why there's a discrepancy. 5132: 4915:, 14 February 2007, 15:33. 4896:Associated Press Newswires 4750:body text, not the title. 4494:16:42, 9 August 2013 (UTC) 4045:22:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC) 4018:20:31, 10 April 2011 (UTC) 3830:02:56, 18 March 2010 (UTC) 2486:Baird met with NDP leader 2120:. I support its deletion. 956:about why the discrepancy 90:19:06, 30 March 2009 (UTC) 5083:Associated Press Newswire 4859:, 8 February 2007, 18:04. 4825:Associated Press Newswire 4814:, 8 February 2007, 18:04. 3985:19:47, 9 April 2011 (UTC) 3860:identity that the person 3802:16:12, 3 March 2010 (UTC) 3746:15:27, 17 June 2008 (UTC) 3728:15:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC) 3711:15:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC) 3694:14:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC) 3043:s coverage of the issue. 2793:14:50, 11 June 2009 (UTC) 1962:Agreed, this should go. 1387:14:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC) 1355:04:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC) 1341:10:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC) 1322:11:25, 24 June 2009 (UTC) 1307:15:38, 23 June 2009 (UTC) 1288:14:21, 23 June 2009 (UTC) 1278:colleague, or something. 1273:12:27, 23 June 2009 (UTC) 1254:00:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC) 1240:22:45, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 1226:Agreed (coming here from 1221:19:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 1145:20:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 1091:19:55, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 1076:19:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 1044:19:25, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 1030:19:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 1004:19:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 989:19:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 931:19:08, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 913:19:02, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 883:18:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 868:18:55, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 854:18:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 836:18:26, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 790:18:14, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 772:17:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 734:17:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 720:17:43, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 706:17:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 688:17:24, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 628:17:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 604:17:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 542:16:53, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 519:16:22, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 421:Larry "wide stance" Craig 394:15:01, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 379:11:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 343:08:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 324:08:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 304:08:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 264:08:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 237:04:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 219:04:39, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 201:04:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 186:04:30, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 172:03:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 153:03:43, 22 June 2009 (UTC) 138:19:58, 21 June 2009 (UTC) 124:19:17, 21 June 2009 (UTC) 106:21:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC) 4760:20:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC) 4166:20:06, 18 May 2011 (UTC) 4122:22:16, 16 May 2011 (UTC) 4092:20:30, 15 May 2011 (UTC) 3944:I don't see anything in 3888:22:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC) 3874:00:20, 6 June 2010 (UTC) 3847:22:07, 5 June 2010 (UTC) 3120:WikiProject class rating 3114:22:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC) 3092:17:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC) 3075:01:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC) 3032:23:36, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 3022:23:15, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 3000:15:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 2826:11:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC) 2783:03:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC) 2774:04:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2764:18:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2750:18:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2688:18:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2648:18:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2608:18:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 2476:18:15, 10 May 2007 (UTC) 1915:"Baird and New Democrat 1570:in the "Trivia" section. 750:people that he may have 658:about a public figure's 571:heterosexual; we simply 567:that an article subject 4902:, 13 February 2007, A4. 4367:he publicly identifies 4076:05:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC) 3238:reasonably well written 2509:-- with the following: 4846:, 6 February 2007, A5. 4801:, 6 February 2007, A5. 4788:, 20 January 2007, A4. 4775:, 20 January 2007, A4. 4558:on the basis of their 3425:(appropriate use with 3056:, 27 April 2007, A1.) 1201:single purpose account 5089:, 20 April 2007, A14. 4334:correct and not just 3520:Chief Government Whip 3400:It is illustrated by 3360:neutral point of view 3328:broad in its coverage 2915:Toronto-Dominion Bank 2857:Toronto-Dominion Bank 2576:Toronto-Dominion Bank 2542:Toronto-Dominion Bank 899:the one who needs to 42:of past discussions. 5115:, 20 April 2007, A8. 5102:, 19 April 2007, A1. 5072:, 19 April 2007, A1. 5059:, 19 April 2007, A1. 5046:, 29 April 2007, A4. 5033:, 29 April 2007, A2. 5020:, 28 April 2007, A5. 4995:, 29 April 2007, A4. 4982:, 29 April 2007, A2. 4969:, 28 April 2007, A5. 4956:, 27 April 2007, A1. 4931:, 26 April 2007, A5. 4885:, 20 April 2007, A8. 4872:, 19 April 2007, A1. 4831:, 20 April 2007, A14 3700:I sourced that fact 2930:prefer CJC’s version 1930:CanWest News Service 1722:So it will go then. 1297:than we might wish. 969:in the print edition 4607:self-identification 4453:him on the matter? 3646:No problem. Thanks! 3413:fair use rationales 2991:I hope this helps. 2983:prefer GD’s version 2813:An offer to mediate 2769:Comments welcome. 2466:Environmental Edits 666:things that people 5018:Hamilton Spectator 4967:Hamilton Spectator 3501:Queen's University 3273:factually accurate 2272:, 18 August 1999) 1803:No dispite there. 1757:Hamilton Spectator 674:about what people 453:is not good enough 4182:comment added by 4102:and Xtra << 3732:Reliable source: 3696: 3680:comment added by 3427:suitable captions 3388:No edit wars etc. 2989: 2988: 2941: 2940: 2873: 2872: 2800:comment added by 2722:for ratification. 1972:Unresolved issues 1535:Got to note that 1280:Sarcasticidealist 1213:Sarcasticidealist 1205:User:Indifferent4 480:reliable sourcing 411:that the subject 316:Sarcasticidealist 229:Sarcasticidealist 193:Sarcasticidealist 164:Sarcasticidealist 130:Sarcasticidealist 80:comment added by 67: 66: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 5123: 5116: 5109: 5103: 5096: 5090: 5079: 5073: 5066: 5060: 5053: 5047: 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5125: 5124: 5122: 5121: 5120: 5119: 5110: 5106: 5097: 5093: 5080: 5076: 5067: 5063: 5054: 5050: 5041: 5037: 5028: 5024: 5015: 5011: 5003: 4999: 4990: 4986: 4977: 4973: 4964: 4960: 4951: 4947: 4939: 4935: 4923: 4919: 4910: 4906: 4893: 4889: 4880: 4876: 4867: 4863: 4854: 4850: 4841: 4837: 4822: 4818: 4809: 4805: 4796: 4792: 4783: 4779: 4770: 4766: 4747: 4233: 4230: 4223: 4177: 3934: 3931: 3924: 3824: 3821: 3814: 3796: 3793: 3786: 3777: 3758: 3672: 3648: 3618: 3495:"He received a 3357:It follows the 3335:(major aspects) 3218: 3201: 3180: 3155: 3141: 3136: 3122: 3041:Globe and Mail' 3010:Dalton McGuinty 2976:Dalton McGuinty 2968:Dalton McGuinty 2815: 2802:142.165.239.230 2795: 2703:Dalton McGuinty 2468: 2327: 2286:opinion columns 1979: 1974: 1909: 1818: 1767:d as follows: 1752: 1664: 1602: 1597: 1595:Resolved issues 1577: 1492: 1490:Lengthy article 1433: 1397: 1123:the process of 471:had explicitly 431:don't identify 368:reliable source 82:198.103.249.251 75: 72: 59: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 5129: 5127: 5118: 5117: 5104: 5100:Globe and Mail 5091: 5087:Ottawa Citizen 5074: 5070:Globe and Mail 5061: 5057:Globe and Mail 5048: 5044:Ottawa Citizen 5035: 5022: 5009: 4997: 4993:Ottawa Citizen 4984: 4971: 4958: 4945: 4933: 4929:Ottawa Citizen 4917: 4913:Canadian Press 4904: 4900:Globe and Mail 4887: 4874: 4870:Globe and Mail 4861: 4857:Canadian Press 4848: 4835: 4829:Ottawa Citizen 4816: 4812:Canadian Press 4803: 4790: 4777: 4763: 4746: 4743: 4742: 4741: 4740: 4739: 4721: 4720: 4662: 4626: 4625: 4599: 4575: 4572:Adam Giambrone 4540: 4474: 4473: 4472: 4471: 4470: 4469: 4468: 4467: 4466: 4465: 4431: 4409: 4361: 4341:Adam Giambrone 4305: 4304: 4303: 4250: 4249: 4248: 4247: 4246: 4245: 4244: 4243: 4242: 4241: 4173: 4172: 4171: 4170: 4169: 4168: 4141:Adam Giambrone 4111: 4110: 4109: 4108: 4052: 4051: 4050: 4049: 4048: 4047: 4027: 4026: 4025: 4024: 4023: 4022: 4021: 4020: 3994: 3993: 3992: 3991: 3990: 3989: 3988: 3987: 3897: 3896: 3895: 3894: 3893: 3892: 3891: 3776: 3773: 3757: 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2625:Vice-President 2611: 2610: 2584:David McGuinty 2564:Kyoto Protocol 2552:David McGuinty 2538:Kyoto Protocol 2479: 2478: 2467: 2464: 2463: 2462: 2451: 2450: 2445: 2444: 2416: 2415: 2414: 2413: 2397: 2396: 2395: 2394: 2382: 2381: 2380: 2379: 2372: 2371: 2370: 2369: 2336: 2335: 2332:Canadian Press 2326: 2323: 2310: 2309: 2282: 2281: 2280: 2279: 2263: 2262: 2261: 2260: 2251: 2250: 2249: 2248: 2240: 2239: 2238: 2237: 2229: 2228: 2227: 2226: 2218: 2217: 2216: 2215: 2207: 2206: 2205: 2204: 2196: 2195: 2194: 2193: 2185: 2184: 2183: 2182: 2174: 2173: 2172: 2171: 2163: 2162: 2161: 2160: 2152: 2151: 2150: 2149: 2141: 2140: 2139: 2138: 2132: 2131: 2130: 2129: 2128: 2127: 2109: 2108: 2107: 2106: 2091: 2090: 2089: 2088: 2079: 2078: 2077: 2076: 2068: 2067: 2066: 2065: 2057: 2056: 2055: 2054: 2046: 2045: 2044: 2043: 2037: 2036: 2035: 2034: 1992: 1991: 1978: 1975: 1973: 1970: 1934: 1933: 1908: 1905: 1904: 1903: 1902: 1901: 1889: 1888: 1887: 1886: 1874: 1873: 1872: 1871: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1861: 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2408:GoldDragon 2314:GoldDragon 2290:GoldDragon 2122:GoldDragon 2086:questions. 1955:GoldDragon 1896:GoldDragon 1805:GoldDragon 1724:GoldDragon 1651:GoldDragon 1552:everyt'ing 1542:GoldDragon 1528:JGGardiner 1517:GoldDragon 1209:User:Nfitz 949:regardless 824:allegation 650:that they 499:protecting 461:themselves 457:regardless 433:themselves 413:themselves 292:WP:CANTALK 4702:community 4686:political 4537:existence 4381:community 4280:necessary 4154:community 4056:WP:CATGRS 3880:Hu Gadarn 3839:Hu Gadarn 3579:expanded. 3448:Pass/Fail 3345:(focused) 3216:GA Review 3178:target.-- 3134:GA class? 3048:schedule. 2726:To this: 2665:To this: 2558:To this: 2492:Vancouver 2420:this edit 2368:umbrella. 1537:everyting 1496:Hu Gadarn 1464:. Thanks. 1117:consensus 893:inclusion 800:assertion 656:assertion 529:WP:CATGRS 405:WP:CATGRS 61:Archive 1 4698:publicly 4690:cultural 4529:responds 4503:that he 4377:cultural 4360:either.) 4336:probably 4324:possible 4276:Straight 4220:as gay. 4180:unsigned 4146:cultural 4003:I think 3862:publicly 3835:Question 3690:contribs 3678:unsigned 3169:CJCurrie 3111:CJCurrie 3072:CJCurrie 3019:CJCurrie 2981:Here, I 2798:unsigned 2780:CJCurrie 2771:CJCurrie 2529:(iii) 2517:does not 2457:CJCurrie 2449:readers. 2424:CJCurrie 2389:CJCurrie 2304:CJCurrie 2274:CJCurrie 2258:created. 2101:CJCurrie 2029:CJCurrie 2017:retained 1964:CJCurrie 1894:Agreed. 1881:CJCurrie 1790:CJCurrie 1709:CJCurrie 1636:CJCurrie 1506:CJCurrie 1477:Re: See 1365:actually 1295:audience 1129:actually 994:false.-- 873:false.-- 748:specific 740:specific 664:specific 660:identity 636:actually 409:requires 78:unsigned 4710:Bearcat 4678:himself 4615:Bearcat 4611:nothing 4568:anybody 4554:as gay 4525:existed 4455:Bearcat 4405:chooses 4393:himself 4369:himself 4293:Bearcat 4158:Bearcat 4068:Bearcat 4037:Protonk 3969:However 3866:Bearcat 3762:Bearcat 3742:Padraic 3724:Padraic 3707:Padraic 3650:JForget 3620:JForget 3483:WP:LEAD 3442:Overall 3245:(prose) 3203:JForget 3182:JForget 3157:JForget 3143:JForget 3139:soon?-- 2719:Al Gore 2693:(vi) 2628:Al Gore 2613:(iv) 2502:(ii) 2300:G&M 1705:G&M 1482:JForget 1379:Bearcat 1299:Bearcat 1228:WP:BLPN 1137:Bearcat 1068:Bearcat 1022:Bearcat 1014:sources 981:Bearcat 973:website 905:Bearcat 860:Bearcat 828:Bearcat 764:Bearcat 712:Bearcat 680:Bearcat 596:Bearcat 573:mention 511:Bearcat 503:himself 492:include 469:himself 451:simply 440:himself 335:Bearcat 330:anybody 296:Bearcat 256:Bearcat 98:Bearcat 39:archive 4704:, and 4682:social 4674:openly 4670:public 4650:WP:BLP 4548:nobody 4513:at all 4447:reason 4435:reason 4397:should 4383:, and 4373:social 4357:verify 4328:verify 4150:social 4064:WP:BLP 3973:WP:BLP 3964:WP:BLP 3946:WP:BLP 3919:WP:BLP 3858:social 3809:WP:BLP 3781:WP:BLP 3403:images 3382:stable 3380:It is 3362:policy 3326:It is 3271:It is 3236:It is 3225:review 3098:clear. 2934:WP:MOS 2867:delete 2653:(v) 2481:(i) 2340:delete 1997:delete 1938:delete 1831:delete 1765:revise 1681:delete 1615:delete 1374:WP:BLP 1369:WP:SPA 1125:making 1101:absent 964:exist. 897:You're 842:WP:BLP 778:WP:BLP 760:detail 644:proven 613:WP:BLP 525:WP:BLP 488:permit 449:itself 445:hadn't 417:assert 401:WP:BLP 354:says: 352:WP:BLP 311:WP:BLP 309:Well, 283:WP:BLP 225:WP:BLP 160:WP:BLP 4592:other 4521:court 4308:Xtra! 4107:: --> 4106:: --> 4101:: --> 4100:: --> 4084:Rrius 3950:Nfitz 3901:Nfitz 3227:(see 2098:room. 1466:Homey 1420:Homey 1405:Homey 1347:Nfitz 1333:Nfitz 1314:Nfitz 1265:Nfitz 1064:can't 1018:isn't 958:might 901:prove 746:, or 640:doing 592:basis 565:state 465:still 211:Nfitz 178:Nfitz 145:Nfitz 116:Nfitz 16:< 4756:talk 4733:talk 4714:talk 4694:only 4688:and 4666:only 4655:sued 4639:talk 4619:talk 4603:else 4596:also 4583:also 4579:also 4556:only 4533:that 4517:took 4505:took 4490:talk 4478:here 4459:talk 4451:push 4443:keep 4428:want 4418:wish 4375:and 4297:talk 4267:talk 4234:talk 4231:talk 4211:talk 4188:talk 4162:talk 4148:and 4118:talk 4088:talk 4072:talk 4060:make 4041:talk 4014:talk 3981:talk 3954:talk 3935:talk 3932:talk 3913:But 3905:talk 3884:talk 3870:talk 3843:talk 3825:talk 3822:talk 3797:talk 3794:talk 3766:talk 3739:. -- 3702:here 3686:talk 3561:1999 3275:and 3229:here 3193:this 2900:TD's 2806:talk 2521:does 2495:NDP. 2418:Was 2025:Star 1860:day. 1703:and 1701:Star 1383:talk 1351:talk 1337:talk 1318:talk 1303:talk 1284:talk 1269:talk 1236:talk 1217:talk 1141:talk 1133:want 1113:make 1087:talk 1072:talk 1060:love 1051:that 1040:talk 1026:talk 1010:true 1000:talk 985:talk 977:know 962:does 941:form 927:talk 909:talk 889:says 879:talk 864:talk 850:talk 832:talk 820:same 808:ever 796:here 786:talk 768:talk 744:done 730:talk 716:talk 702:talk 684:talk 648:fact 624:talk 600:talk 557:them 538:talk 527:and 515:talk 473:said 429:they 423:and 403:and 390:talk 339:talk 320:talk 300:talk 288:NOW' 260:talk 246:and 233:talk 215:talk 197:talk 182:talk 168:talk 149:talk 134:talk 120:talk 102:talk 86:talk 4706:not 4659:own 4564:own 4560:own 4385:not 4353:own 4320:own 3257:MoS 2742:are 2490:in 2404:not 2365:why 1999:d. 1833:d. 1683:d. 1617:d. 1230:). 1109:any 1097:had 945:any 812:see 752:had 676:are 652:did 646:as 584:can 580:can 561:own 552:sue 548:are 507:own 484:out 475:so. 70:Gay 4758:) 4735:) 4716:) 4684:, 4641:) 4621:) 4613:. 4509:no 4492:) 4461:) 4365:if 4299:) 4289:do 4284:is 4269:) 4213:) 4190:) 4164:) 4120:) 4090:) 4074:) 4043:) 4016:) 3983:) 3956:) 3921:. 3915:he 3907:) 3886:) 3872:) 3849:. 3845:) 3811:. 3768:) 3736:, 3718:, 3692:) 3688:• 3639:CP 3604:CP 3593:CP 3450:: 3444:: 3431:: 3423:b 3417:: 3409:a 3390:: 3384:. 3370:: 3364:. 3347:: 3343:b 3337:: 3333:a 3330:. 3316:: 3312:OR 3308:c 3302:: 3294:b 3288:: 3284:a 3281:. 3261:: 3253:b 3247:: 3243:a 3240:. 3223:GA 2995:| 2928:I 2862:- 2821:| 2808:) 2437:| 2346:| 2325:#5 2003:| 1977:#3 1944:| 1907:#7 1837:| 1816:#6 1775:| 1750:#4 1735:| 1687:| 1662:#2 1621:| 1600:#1 1584:| 1558:| 1526:-- 1385:) 1353:) 1339:) 1320:) 1305:) 1286:) 1271:) 1249:| 1238:) 1219:) 1143:) 1121:is 1105:my 1089:) 1074:) 1042:) 1028:) 1020:. 1002:) 987:) 939:a 937:is 929:) 911:) 895:. 881:) 866:) 852:) 834:) 788:) 770:) 756:is 732:) 718:) 704:) 686:) 678:. 668:do 626:) 602:) 588:is 569:is 540:) 517:) 407:, 392:) 374:| 370:. 341:) 322:) 302:) 262:) 235:) 217:) 199:) 184:) 170:) 151:) 136:) 122:) 104:) 88:) 4754:( 4731:( 4712:( 4637:( 4617:( 4488:( 4457:( 4295:( 4265:( 4209:( 4186:( 4160:( 4116:( 4086:( 4082:- 4070:( 4039:( 4012:( 3979:( 3952:( 3903:( 3890:. 3882:( 3868:( 3841:( 3764:( 3684:( 3429:) 3415:) 3314:) 3310:( 3300:) 3259:) 3255:( 3199:. 2997:t 2823:t 2804:( 2439:t 2348:t 2268:( 2005:t 1946:t 1839:t 1777:t 1737:t 1689:t 1623:t 1586:t 1560:t 1381:( 1349:( 1335:( 1316:( 1301:( 1282:( 1267:( 1251:t 1234:( 1215:( 1139:( 1085:( 1070:( 1056:I 1038:( 1024:( 998:( 983:( 925:( 907:( 877:( 862:( 848:( 830:( 784:( 766:( 728:( 714:( 700:( 682:( 622:( 598:( 536:( 513:( 388:( 376:t 337:( 318:( 298:( 258:( 231:( 213:( 195:( 180:( 166:( 147:( 132:( 118:( 114:" 100:( 84:( 50:.

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