1773:) is instructive here, in which I said, in part, in one discussion, "I'm not aware of any Knowledge policy when it comes to people with multiple pronouns...I still tend to favor using the same pronouns throughout an article, whether she/her or they/them in terms of Rebecca. At the same time, I do tend to believe that the most common pronouns should be used for Rebecca...without a unifying policy, I guess its all up to consensus on here to decide if to use multiple pronouns or not." I'd recommend reading the above linked discussions, as there was a LOT of back-and-forth when it came to Rebecca's pronouns, and it can be relevant here. Maybe we should do something similar to the Rebecca Sugar page here with
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they/them? Because there will probably be some users (probably IP users) who try and change the pronouns regardless of our discussion here. I wasn't aware of the convention about pronoun order, but I think that could be tricky to pin down, because I don't think Monáe has directly said why the pronouns are in that order and/or talked about about the preference for that pronoun order.
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Wow... You predict the future and someone's reaction? Do you know me?! Are you aware of my WP history and contributions?! You didn't see my edit summary, did you? And you obviously didn't see my reply on my talk page. You don't even remeber my username and our previous interactions (e.g. talk stuff).
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with the sheer number of categories the article has, it'd seem wholly uncontroversial to have done what I did, which was change either the categories to the correct non-binary equivalent or to move them up to their respective non-gendered parent categories, but here we are. I know AGF, but this level
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I can agree, having a note would be helpful, and as I said above, due to the reliable sources leaning against use of they/them, and the fact that Monae has stated that she favors she/her and they/them pronouns, as
Funcrunch pointed out rightly so, I don't see an issue with the existing pronoun usage,
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Monáe uses she/her and they/them pronouns. This article uses they/them pronouns for consistency. There is consensus to use "they" because, as the article explains, Monae uses both "she" and "they" pronouns. This avoids confusing readers. If you think this should be changed, you should seek consensus
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There should be a note that Monáe uses both she/her and they/them pronouns, like there is for the articles of other people who accept multiple pronouns. I do not think it's necessary to shift to they/them per
Funcrunch (see Monáe's January 2023 statement, and that the Spotify bio does not seem to be
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I can agree. I reversed the user who reverted this helpful change by the OP here and directed them to this discussion. I wholly expect my edit to be reversed, but if I can at least encourage them to participate here, that would be great. As to what the OP is saying, I think this talk page is better
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I agree with this, and I was surprised to see that the article was still using she/her exclusively. Even on article for non-binary people that are mired in conflict from conservative editors trying to erase or minimize non-binary identities, the articles still usually resolve to have a note on the
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pronouns. This article uses feminine pronouns for consistency. There is consensus to use "she" because, as the article explains, Monae uses both "she" and "they" pronouns, and because Monae is covered by our sources as "she". This avoids confusing readers. If you think this should be changed, you
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where Monae says "I'm nonbinary, so I just don't see myself as a woman, solely. I feel all of my energy. I feel like god is so much bigger than the 'he' or the 'she.' And if I am from God, I am everything. I am everything. But I will always, always stand with women. I will always stand with Black
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For consistency sake, as I've noted elsewhere, I think we should stick with she/he, so as to not confuse anyone. And since Monáe is pronoun flexible, I don't see the harm with sticking with one set of pronouns (she/her). I know other media outlets have used multiple pronouns in one article, but,
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Reliable sources are not always reliable in terms of pronoun usage. Many so-called reliable sources will misgender people even when stating that a person uses different pronouns. This is clearly evident in the LA Times interview in which Monae states that they use they/them and she/her, but the
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As a nonbinary person myself I understand the desire of some to default to they/them, but I'm not sure that's necessary in this case. As long as both sets of pronouns are noted in the bio, sticking to she/her throughout the article until and unless Monáe expresses a preference otherwise would
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It is my understanding for pronoun changes of biographies on here is that
Knowledge relies on what the majority of reliable sources use to inform what pronouns are used. As such, should we keep it as she/her (the majority of reliable sources appear to favor this at present), or change it to
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None of our decisions about pronoun usage should be motivated by anticipated vandalism. We do not negotiate with etc. That said, it seems the biography was not self-authored, so the point kicking off this discussion is not particularly relevant. That said, the note should still be
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we should use the gendered words the subject prefers, even if that's different from what's stated in reliable sources. Monáe has stated using both she/her and they/them, without specifying a preference for one or the other. The most recent pronoun statement I could find was her
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Hmm, I said in an earlier discussion to use she/her (I only said they should be used for the time being, as it wasn't directly said that Monae preferred they/them). I may be fine with changing it to they/them, and if there was a change, then this new note could be added to the
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Given that Monáe has come out as nonbinary, we should probably reexamine some of the categories Monáe's listed in here (several women ones for instance). I don't know whether Monáe would not like being called a woman, or the etiquette here however. What is the Wiki policy on
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first pronoun usage to explain the subject's pronouns without having to go to the
Personal Life section. The article should primarily use they/them, with a footnote on the first usage explaining that Monae also uses she/her, but that they/them is used here for consistency.
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which notes that Monae is pronoun flexible. The article says: "Monáe brings a carefree spirit to thoughtful conversation — happy to veer off on a tangent, deeply enmeshed in the issues raised by her high-concept work. The singer identifies as nonbinary, adding:
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Good point about MOS:TRANS, and I'll keep that in mind considering this issue has cropped up a number of times before. Right, exactly. I can agree, that as long as both sets of the pronouns are in the bio, then using she/her throughout the article works.
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Great! I'm guessing that there will be others in the future which will raise this same issue, and its definitely possible that reliable sources will lean toward using they/them in the future, but for now, I think the existing pronouns are here are fine.
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A hurdle to this change would be what I said in the past: "its definitely possible that reliable sources will lean toward using they/them in the future, but for now, I think the existing pronouns are here are fine." Doing a quick search, it looks like
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article only uses she/her pronouns throughout. When people use multiple pronouns but only one is used, that is denying that person's gender. Alternate every section or every paragraph but do something to show that the multiple pronouns are respected.
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Well, the
Rolling Stone article is mainly summarizing what she said on Red Table Talk. Besides, the new note on the article is better, more descriptive than the previous one, and more helpful to users. Additionally, that Rolling Stone article
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There are two conventions commonly in use within the LGBT community regarding the ordering of one's pronouns (for people with multiple sets); either the first one given is to be used primarily, or they are to be alternated between. (Sources:
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women. But I just see everything I am. Beyond the binary" but the article states: "Monáe has not clarified their pronouns yet." So, unless those pronouns are clarified, we should stick with the she/her pronouns for the time being.
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Absent a source indicating the pronouns should be changed, I undid recent edit(s) which changed only a few "she"s to "they", though in all but one case I did so by revising the sentences to not need pronouns.
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I reversed the user who reverted this helpful change by the OP here and directed them to this discussion. I wholly expect my edit to be reversed... but if I can at least encourage them to participate here...
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to the "Personal Life" section of the article. What her rep said doesn't contradict that Monae has described herself as pronoun flexible, basically, in a LA Times interview (noted in the below discussion).
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The article already covers Monáe's identity.The article you cite says "Janelle Monáe said that they identify as nonbinary and use both they/them and she/her pronouns" so the article is in compliance
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One would think this would be obvious, but apparently there's "consensus" needed to move misgendering categories to those which fit a person's gender identity (oh, BOLD is dead, apparently).
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I think it was my comment about vandalism that was being responded to. Agreed that it shouldn't be a consideration. I guess I'm just tired of seeing so much vandalism on nb bios :-(
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Monáe was also asked about her pronouns, with the interviewer pointing out that her
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implies that the only prudent course of action would be to "reflect the person's most recent expressed self-identification," ie. use they/them pronouns throughout the article.
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personally, I find that confusing to readers. Besides, the fact that multiple pronouns can be used is already mentioned at the beginning of the article in a note.
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That article uses they/them pronouns, but it nowhere indicates that Monae identifies according to they/them pronouns... The ending piece refers to Sam Smith...
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continue to use she/her pronouns for Monáe. Until Monáe makes a clear preference, we should probably hold off changing her pronouns on this article for now.
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It's not fully neutral, but it's at least more common to use "actors" than "actresses" for mixed groups so seems reasonable to use it for the singular
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2056:) Between her expressed preference of "they/them, her/she" and their self-written biography on Spotify, which uses exclusively they/them pronouns (
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The first line describes them as an "actress", a term with implicit gender. Might it be better to change to "actor", which is a more neutral term?
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in
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Janelle has just came out as Non-Binary so their pronouns need to be changed to They/Them and they need to be identified as a Non-Binary person.
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I can agree. In terms of attempted vandalism, I was only pointing out that it will likely happen no matter the consensus we come to here.
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There's no conflict between being non-binary and female, or being non-binary and using feminine gender pronouns. Reliable sources such as
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Some IP users are continuing to change the pronouns to they/them. As of
November 2020, reliable sources are still using she/her pronouns
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Not interested in discussing a topic when someone writes stuff like your above comment. Next time, when you revert edits, preview them.
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I agree. There's a good chance Monáe does not have a preference. Or may not mind she/her/they/them. Or asks that they/them are used.
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Again, more IP users changing the pronouns to they/them, resulting in the page being "semi-protected." Such edits are likely based
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And I'm not the user(s) who edited and changed the categories. You better take a look at the revision history and ping users like
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I'm OK with using the term "actor" but which WP guideline allows it? Does she call herself an actor or actress? For example, see
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of scrutiny for what'd be an entirely uncontroversial change in, say, a trans actress's page shortly after she came out
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brought this up two years ago and then... nothing happened. While there's a (separate) argument to be made about
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Um, Knowledge only uses the preferred pronouns (based on reliable sources), not the ones we think are "correct."
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I'm not sure why there isn't a note at the beginning of the article, as there used to be (like there is on the
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Hmm. I'd say that either "Actor" or "performer", or something similar which isn't gendered, would be good.
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Knowledge should use people’s correct pronouns, regardless of whether or not they’re their preferred ones.
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should seek consensus by participating in discussion on the talk page. See previous discussions at
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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A rep for Monáe confirmed to Rolling Stone that the singer continues to use she/her pronouns.
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is self-written? I just looked and at the bottom it's attributed to "Andy Kellman, Rovi".
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It seems we have consensus on that front at least, so someone should go ahead and do it.
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which is why I put it there yesterday and why the source should not have been removed.
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https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/22/entertainment/janelle-monae-nonbinary-cec/index.html
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Good question. I think we might need some new categories. The discussion on
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Right. That article doesn't say anything specifically, but it links to an
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than some others in discussing categories that need to be changed...
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Monáe has not requested the use of they/them, per interview reported
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I noticed several edits changing (some of!) the pronouns between
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Talk:Janelle Monáe#Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2022
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Talk:Janelle Monáe#Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2022
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from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
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Yeah, intentional or not it comes off that way. Ridiculous.
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is it based on Goldberg's preference or a WP guideline? --
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article needs section on this see NY TIMES of May 5, 2022
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Articles created or improved during Wiki Loves Pride 2022
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https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/05/people-use-pronouns/
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https://open.spotify.com/artist/6ueGR6SWhUJfvEhqkvMsVs
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1370:21:05, 4 September 2020 (UTC)
1337:19:10, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
1141:This article is supported by
943:and see a list of open tasks.
857:and see a list of open tasks.
760:and see a list of open tasks.
689:and see a list of open tasks.
603:and see a list of open tasks.
588:R&B and Soul Music portal
530:This article is supported by
410:This article is supported by
390:This article is supported by
222:biographies of living persons
42:Put new text under old text.
2638:B-Class Kansas City articles
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2400:02:11, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
2358:16:24, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
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2316:06:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
2298:00:14, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
1477:03:04, 4 December 2020 (UTC)
1394:this from the last few weeks
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749:WikiProject African diaspora
354:contribute to the discussion
2388:21:55, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
2348:Yeah, I'm tired of it too.
2283:21:51, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
2256:21:15, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
2107:Talk:Janelle Monáe#Pronouns
2094:08:11, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
1797:Talk:Janelle Monáe#Pronouns
1635:to reactivate your request.
1623:has been answered. Set the
695:Knowledge:WikiProject Women
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1199:Knowledge:Wiki Loves Pride
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2440:like non-binary erasure.
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