1670:"Lose the first headline", do you mean "Creating a monster" or do you mean "Concept and Creation"? As for the Jill Valentine analogy, again, there's nothing wrong with "Men behind the mask". Jill Valentine is also not as well known and iconic as Jason Voorhees. You acknowledge that the header is understood to be the people portraying Jason. I don't subscribe to this notion that headers should be these tasteless titles like "Actors" or "Writers". There is no guideline that says headers are supposed to be bland. They are supposed to be descriptive and not contain redundancy to the article itself. We write professionally, but professional does not mean bland. Part of the criteria for a featured article is that it is supposed to be "engaging" (word from the FA criteria). Would you feel better if we changed it from "Men" to "Actors behind the mask"?
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problem, and gone through a peer review and FAC. You want to point to other examples, but there aren't any other examples of fictional characters who are icons that have had multiple people portraying them across time. You pointed to Jill
Valentine, which only contains a section listing (in prose) the people that have voiced her or portrayed here. The "Men under the mask" section isn't some simple list of people that have put on the mask. It's way more detailed into what went into those performances and how they were selected (or replaced). There is not additional content to that Jill Valentine section (we won't talk about how it uses a single subjection, which goes against writing guidelines). I would argue you picked an inferior article for comparison to suggest that this article is somehow doing something wrong.
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1810:"The Man behind the monsters" doesn't give the same impression as "Men behind the mask", especially when you're looking at an article about a singular character versus a book specifically about a special effects artist. It's called context. You cannot point to a similar title that has different context and say it's the same thing. Until someone decided that "Creating a monster" was "too dramatic", we've never in 16 years had confusion over this section.
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are. "Development" is vague, and article titles are not supposed to be vague. "Actors" is inaccurate, as not all of the people that played Jason were actors, not to mention the section discusses a lot of the stand-ins and stunt work that goes into the character. Saying "men behind the mask" could be indicative of the special effects team insinuates that Jason is noting more than a mask, which isn't true.
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1034:. It doesn't add anything. It's more relevant to the actual film articles, not to Jason. Including them is like saying that their quick fall through a building is somehow of equal weight as the other people that perform the role. It isn't and most of the time it's so quick it's barely even seen on the screen. Those additions should be brought to the film pages, not relevant here.
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At the reception section, this definitely needs to be organized properly. Another questionable sources, such as ref 121 to 125, ref 127, and ref 128, seems to be a low-quality source, as do ref 115, ref 131, ref 133, ref 135 (YouTube), ref 137, ref 138, ref 141 and 142, ref 144 to 148, and ref 150 to
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I mean all of this is down to opinion and I've given several examples, you have not, and I can't find any other articles about pop culture icons that do this. I've gives my reasons why I think it's not good, provided several examples (for example, other fictional character articles don't do this) and
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I get with that, but "Men behind the mask" is not so far out there that the average person (Belbury excluded apparently) wouldn't assume it's referring to the actors/stuntmen who played Jason. As for "Creating a monster", again I'm no longer advocating for it to stay. I'm saying that "Development" is
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We don't typically mention stunt people that filmed a couple of scenes. They are credited as "stunt man" for a reason in those films, because they did a stunt they didn't want the regular portrayer to do. We wouldn't mention every stunt person that subs in for Robert
Englund in Freddy scenes, because
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They aren't known as "actors" in most situations, but a random scene here and there that requires a separate stuntworker isn't relevant to the portrayal of the character. If there was something specific that they added to the character, maybe. But what you're talking about is really more relevant to
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Well maybe I differ than most people on the topic but I'd feel like stunt people should be mentioned to. Without them many films wouldn't get made. And in the case of Jason most of what he does is stunts of different kinds, I mean it's not like any of the people who did the role were really known as
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that states "just because something is not forbidden in a written document, or is even explicitly permitted, doesn't mean it's a good idea in the given situation." In this case, yes there isn't a specific rule we've found that says you shouldn't give colourful titles, but other than "it's been like
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article and see a headline called "Entry into Pop
Stardom" for a few reasons: it makes it sound like that logically through the development that Pop stardom was the only conclusion that could happen. Similar to "making a horror icon" or "making a monster" gives it a bit of grandness when we have to
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You're specifically trying to mention some stuntwork that brought on stuntdoubles for more dangerous scenes. THat's hardly a portrayal. Tait filmed a completely new scene, that's borderline and only the reason it's mentioned. If we get into the habit of mentioning stunt people then we have to start
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Why eaxctly does Tait's situation make it ok for him to be mentioned? Most people wouldn't say Jason has much specific character from the performances alone anyway so why are we deciding which people deserve to be mentioned and which don't? Why would
Knowledge go only on who is credited or not? Are
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concerns. Most of the sources are poorly formatted or cited, with no authors, dates of publication, websites that aren't italicized, access dates, etc.; usage of DVD as a source for its appearance in films, with questionable sources for refs 25, 26, 37, ref 38, ref 39, ref 40, ref 41, refs 47–52,
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I hardly consider those "dramatic" titles, the description you use would be dramatic. These are not new headers, nor is that part of the guideline new. So, why would this not have been brought up in the peer review or FAC from 16 years ago? "Description of the topic" is exactly what those headers
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The dramatic headings don't seem entirely clear here. "Men behind the mask" may just as plausibly be about the special effects team who developed the costume. And if read idiomatically, "Creating a monster" would suggest the character moving out of the original writer's control in a way that they
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I've adjusted it to be less confusing. We aren't a "professional encyclopedia" first; they don't write for engagement. We do write for engagement as it's part of the criteria for featured article status. Even so, the content is fine. The header is just fine. It has existed for 16 years without a
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I'm seeing a persistent level of low level vandalism on this article. Some obvious, and some not so. It seems to be mostly quickly reverted, and there appears in balance to be positive edits by IP editors who would be excluded if the article were semi-protected, so the need for protection is not
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I feel like "something specific that they added to the character" is a pretty vague description and by that logic why would we mention Tom Morga who was only in a flashbacks in a few scenes in Part 5 too? I mean in the end many people would say that it was only really Hodder who made a distinct
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Can you show me any rule or standard that something existing a long time is a reason to keep it? I'm going by a contemporary FA, not one that happened to pass in the 2000s and has not been reviewed since. I've also shared several other featured articles and none of headlines like this and went
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Why are we still talking about the "Making a monster" subheading as if we are in disagreement over changing it? I've already said I understand the issue. When I asked about it in my past response, was because I wasn't sure if you were saying just get rid of "Making a monster" (my most recent
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Whether someone is iconic or not is not something you can bank on as the term is relatively meaningless. To some people she is, to others not. It's not about the term "Men" or "Monster" or "Slasher", it's more so just to have a clear thing for people to read about. If I have any vaguely wiki
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Just because you cannot "guess" (and I question that - as why would you assume writing team with "behind the masK"...it isn't a euphemism) what it could mean, doesn't mean that it isn't descriptive to the section. I could argue your same point by the header "Characterization". Does that mean
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As a reader only passingly familiar with the films, I would not have been able to guess with confidence which of several possible meanings "Men behind the mask" had in the table of contents. The fact that it's a subheading of "Concept and creation" would probably lean it more towards being a
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I am more in the middle for my thoughts on this. I think that we can have titles that are not overtly dramatic while not being generic. For my edits on the other horror Icon
Leatherface, I changed the character development and men behind the mask sub sections to "Developing the Killer" and
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It was a suggestion, but to me I don't like "Development" or "Developing Jason", because it's vague and just as easily the same thing as "Concept and creation" (the main header for the section). It denotes the same thing whether you're talking about the initial writing, his personality
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basically the same thing a "Concept and creation", which is the main header. Maybe we ditch the subheading of "Creating a mnonster" altogether and just leave that as the opening bit of information before it dovetails into 2 subsections of the actors and the physical design of Jason.
892:. I know these sources aren't the best but I feel like these people should be mentioned in the prose at least since it is relevant information to the portrayal of the character. Does anyone know if there have been any interviews or similar that mention these contributions?
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Because Tom Morga is literally credited as Jason. Tait was brought in to film a whole new ending because
Kirzinger couldn't be on set at the time. The other people you are talking about are just filming dangerous stunts. That's a film thing, not a character thing.
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They shouldn't have to read the content. The headings are for people to find the content they are looking for. But creating a monster or making a slasher isn't much better. Perhaps the heading before hand should be more broad to make "Creation" make more sense.
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I read your comment on the removal of the image in the 'Appearances' section and I understand the rationale behind it. Do you agree that the section would benefit from something to break up the text, and if so what type of thing do you think could add value? Ta
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That is my issue too. It comes off as fancrufty, especially the quote box. So what? I'm sure a dozen metal bands have had some Jason songs, and not just one-off lines. Imagine a featured article on "Spam" that does that for the Weird Al song of the same name.
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this for years" or "I don't think people would be confused!" aren't really satisfying as I've clarified how they are. If we can't come to an agreement here, I'll ask some wikiprojects to chime in and hopefully we can come to a conclusion here.
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Deceloping Jason makes more sense to me. Honestly, before reading the article "Men Behind the Mask" could sound easily be interpreted to me as being about the actors portraying Jason to being about the creative team who wrote the character.
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The entire article is not about his development. It goes into his reception and plot-oriented items within the films as well, so that's simply not the case. Several other
Featured Articles also go into statements as the one above such as
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characteristics, or the literal development of his mask across multiple films. But I cede the notion that "Creating a monster" isn't very accurate to the section either, because it doesn't actually convey what the section is about.
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I agree with you on that. Maybe change the first sub-heading to "Creating a
Slasher" or something of that sort because Slasher films were defined by the time Jason made his debute, whereas Leatherface did not debut around that
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I pointed this out before with the Jill
Valentine article where after the first heading it just has has prose, no subsection. Following that it has a section for actors with a sub-heading. I think that would solve our issues.
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and
Belbury noted, there is just some issue with the headline title, but aside from that, the article has a serious problem when it comes to sourcing and overreliance of the book of Bracke as a source, creating possibly
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Agreed, I'd suggest changing them the previous the mentioned titles here. I know articles about popular culture icons are generally pretty fun, but we kind of want them to be easy to find and read and be searchable.
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I think we generally have it under control. I appreciate you fixing that last bit, as I hadn't checked the page yet from my watchlist of recent changes. Right now I don't think it's reached a problematic level.
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For me "Developing Jason" would not fit because the entire article is already about him so I think something that fits with who the character is will be more adequate rather than just using his name in a sub
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To me, "Creating a monster" is the only "dramatic" (or hyperbolic if you will) header. I don't see "Men behind the mask" as dramatic in the slightest and very accurate to what the section is about.
1656:) We can probably lose the first head line and just have it under development and have the other just say "Actors" as the Jill Valentine one goes into the voice actors and such for that character.
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If by "agreement" you mean only your way then you're right, we can't. I have actually provide multiple alternative that still keep in line with having an engaging article, but an accurate header.
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How does this sound, to remove some "confusion". "Men under the mask"? I really doubt there should be any question that we're talking about the people that have portrayed Jason and not "writers".
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and other media on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, you can edit one of the articles mentioned below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the
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The fact that you can interpret "Men behind the mask" differently doesn't mean it isn't accurate the section, and reading the section immediately answers the question as to what it is about.
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Removed "Creating a monster" as unneeded. I don't see any real issue with "Men behind the mask" though. It's a greater leap to assume it means "writing staff" instead of "actors/stuntmen".
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in-universe, does that mean real world characterization....That's why you read the section. Within 10 seconds of reading the first 2 sentences you know exactly what you're reading about.
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was hired to play Jason in the most dangerous stunt scenes for Freddy vs Jason. There have been reports that the Jason in the flashback at the beginning of Part 5 was John Hock. See
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It's not about keeping engagement, it's the content. No professional encyclopedia would attempt to just do this and you have no provided me with anything that suggests otherwise.
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I believe I made it clear because it sounds like it could easily be about actors portraying Jason or about the actual creation. I'm going to lean towards a more contemporary FA (
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actually mention Douglas Tait who did one single scene for Freddy vs Jason. If there is a reliable source why not include it. It's not like it would make the article overly long.
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through several rules stating that they should be obvious what they are. As it's only you and me discussing, I have reached out to communities to get second opinion on this.
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Just go with the blandly descriptive headers, such as "development" and "actors". As a reader, I dislike it when people try to get cute with headers and titles.
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1568:. Honestly, I don't even know why we need the "Jason" part of the phrase, as you are already on the article. It's not like he goes through various names.
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Because it can be used for many interpretations. For example, here's a book on famous Universal horror make-up artists Jack Pierce using a similar title
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I don't. There does not need to be an image in ever section. It's a plot section, so there isn't a need for an image in a plot section anyway. See
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personality for Jason in his performances. I think picking and choosing who gets mentioned is a little weird. I mean the article
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remain neutral. I agree they are fun, and I enjoy reading them like this, but it should be played a bit more straight.
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costume/writing team prior to casting and filming. --
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actors before the role or after. Except maybe Mears.
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2050:Andrzejbanas
2042:Andrzejbanas
1998:
1984:Andrzejbanas
1981:
1950:Andrzejbanas
1938:(Contact me)
1929:
1924:
1898:Andrzejbanas
1888:(Contact me)
1879:
1862:Andrzejbanas
1842:(Contact me)
1833:
1822:(Contact me)
1813:
1798:Andrzejbanas
1784:(Contact me)
1775:
1756:Andrzejbanas
1744:(Contact me)
1735:
1729:
1726:
1702:Andrzejbanas
1697:Mariah Carey
1693:WP:IMPARTIAL
1682:(Contact me)
1673:
1658:Andrzejbanas
1644:(Contact me)
1635:
1619:Andrzejbanas
1608:(Contact me)
1599:
1570:Andrzejbanas
1542:
1518:Andrzejbanas
1507:(Contact me)
1498:
1465:(Contact me)
1456:
1385:timeframe.--
1360:(Contact me)
1351:
1305:(Contact me)
1296:
1276:Andrzejbanas
1256:
1217:
1188:(Contact me)
1179:
1152:
1123:(Contact me)
1114:
1089:
1046:(Contact me)
1037:
1006:(Contact me)
997:
974:
964:(Contact me)
955:
920:(Contact me)
911:
880:
877:Other Jasons
872:
870:
848:
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774:Project Talk
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396:WikiProjects
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19:This is the
1258:regretted.
1232:Development
1220:this revert
842:Film portal
544:Film portal
148:free images
31:not a forum
2069:Categories
1993:WP:PRIMARY
1544:section.--
882:Glen Ennis
573:guidelines
561:open tasks
447:literature
1857:WP:COMMON
1198:Vanteloop
1159:Vanteloop
88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2024:Boneless
2004:Boneless
1931:BIGNOLE
1881:BIGNOLE
1835:BIGNOLE
1815:BIGNOLE
1777:BIGNOLE
1737:BIGNOLE
1675:BIGNOLE
1637:BIGNOLE
1601:BIGNOLE
1500:BIGNOLE
1458:BIGNOLE
1353:BIGNOLE
1298:BIGNOLE
1240:MOS:HEAD
1181:BIGNOLE
1133:SilkTork
1116:BIGNOLE
1097:SilkTork
1056:★Trekker
1039:BIGNOLE
1017:★Trekker
999:BIGNOLE
979:★Trekker
957:BIGNOLE
931:★Trekker
913:BIGNOLE
894:★Trekker
515:American
335:Promoted
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
1420:Belbury
1260:Belbury
1252:WP:TONE
1154:Bignole
813:on the
485:on the
386:C-class
354:Demoted
294:Process
211:90 days
154:WP refs
142:scholar
2026:Pizza!
2006:Pizza!
1853:MOS:AT
1236:Actors
1131:Cool.
779:Alerts
705:Cinema
458:Horror
415:Horror
392:scale.
316:Listed
297:Result
126:Google
1989:WP:OR
253:is a
191:Index
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2054:talk
2046:talk
2029:🍕 (
2009:🍕 (
1991:and
1968:talk
1954:talk
1902:talk
1866:talk
1851:per
1802:talk
1794:here
1760:talk
1706:talk
1662:talk
1623:talk
1574:talk
1550:talk
1522:talk
1424:talk
1391:talk
1328:talk
1280:talk
1264:talk
1234:and
1226:and
1202:talk
1163:talk
1137:talk
1101:talk
1060:talk
1021:talk
983:talk
975:does
935:talk
898:talk
890:here
888:and
886:here
805:High
578:Film
563:and
510:Film
477:High
443:film
291:Date
162:FENS
136:news
73:and
2048:)`
1982:As
1564:or
1218:On
176:TWL
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172:·
166:·
158:·
151:·
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139:·
133:·
128:(
58:.
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