Talk:Jesus in comparative mythology/Archive 2

352:. I personally did the last edit on that section because the previous version was MUCH MUCH worse. If the reference that the anon editor speaks of does not mention anything about the "concensus" that is on the page, then that needs to be fixed, however the context remains the same - much of the "Jesus is really just Christians taking "X" from this mythology" is largely made up of atheists grasping at straws. "The Mother & Child Dieties" section is a perfect example - isn't it really saying that since Isis is the "only" mother in anctient times, then she has to be the model for Mary? If not, what's the point? Also I'm not really sure what the "Child Dieties" section is trying to say. Christ isn't a "Child Diety" so at the very least the section heading isn't correct and the text talks about Shed being a model for an Egyptian savior - this could describe "any" mythological diety - people were always praying to their personal gods for safety and health - that was the point of 2014:, despite the fact that "Christ" is an ordinary Greek word meaning "anointed one" that existed long before Jesus and it already has a completely mundane etymology unrelated to Krishna. Another example is the interpretation of a story in which Krishna is killed by being shot through the heel as some kind of crucifixion. Even for the deities who may have legitimately influenced later Christian views on Jesus, there are still all kinds of wild speculations. For instance, there is credible reason to think that Egyptian portrayals of Isis nursing Horus may have influenced Christian depictions of the Virgin Mary nursing Jesus, but, aside from this (at least as far as I am currently aware), there is no evidence to support the idea that any of the other supposed parallels between them that have been propounded over the years thanks to the humorous ineptitude of 2107:

primarily as a history of mythological developments and influences on Christian views of Jesus in chronological order with a section at the end about general parallels (i.e. similarities that are probably not the result of direct influence) at the end. My writing process is a bit disorganized, however, and I tend to write articles a few paragraphs at a time, adding material in as I go along. The current structure is a temporary stand-in until I compose more material to fill in the parts that are missing. I think that it will be necessary to refute the Christ Myth theory in some places, since that is what most people will jump to when they hear "Jesus in comparative mythology," but I will try to limit mention of it. (It is worth noting that the original title of this article was "Jesus as myth" and it was essentially a redundant fork of the article

840:. So some respected scholar" needs to say that there was a historical connection. And if there are respected scholars that say there was none, then it goes the other way. That is all. And from everything we have seen the Greek and Egyptian analogies have had the most ink, with the Buddhist items mostly rejected out of hand by scholars in general, although a few have made suggestions in the 19th century. The suggestion by Elaine Pagels is that the possibility that Buddhism may have influenced Gnostics, then the Christians "should be studied" but she does not support it herself, and those were post New Testament anyway. And by the way, the nativity stories in Luke are generally assumed as non-central to the lifestory of Jesus, in that the essential elements such as teachings, crucifixion, atonement etc. were already in the 2986:, whose early work on Greek mythology is terrific, but whose later work sort of went off the Jungian deep end.) I think I will mention Dundes's argument that Jesus fits the mold of an archetypal folk hero, which is mentioned in several of my other sources (although not quite as much as Sandmel's article on "parallelomania", which is mentioned by a considerable number of them as well). I will, however, have to note that other scholars have criticized Dundes's analysis of Jesus as flawed, since he takes unrelated stories from different gospels and meshes them together syncretically without apparently realizing that the four gospels all portray Jesus in radically different ways. -- 2010:

centuries, as well as some more recent writings produced by amateurs - adducing wildly exaggerated parallels to Jesus based on even slightest superficial similarities (or even sometimes completely nonexistent ones). The "parallelomania" he describes has largely been expelled from mainstream scholarship, but it is still very common among supporters of the fringe Christ Myth theory, who often invent and exaggerate parallels far beyond reality. One representative example of this trend described by Maurice Casey is the notion propounded by some Christ Myth theorists that the word "Christ" is somehow derived from the Sanskrit name of the Hindu god

1997:

Christianity comes only from the later strata of the religion, after it had become a predominantly Gentile religion largely detached from its original Jewish roots (a shift which happened in the late first century after the Synoptic Gospels were written). Thus, the gospels of Mark and Matthew are usually thought to be either totally free from pagan influence or, if there are pagan influences in them, they are not observable. Instead, the primary influence on them is Jewish tradition. The Gospel of Matthew in particular is known for its markedly Jewish character and it was at one point used by the

2001:, an early sect of Judaizing Christians. The Gospel of Luke is a bit more of an open question, with some scholars arguing that, in this gospel, Jesus may be starting to show some features of a pagan divine-man; this is, of course, still disputed. The Gospel of John was definitely influenced by Platonism and it may have also been influenced to some extent by Greco-Roman paganism, though even this is still hotly disputed. The parallels between Dionysus and the portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel of John that you refer to are indeed a legitimate area of scholarly inquiry, but it is by no means 1196: 2409:- critical New Testament historians of the higher criticism variety, who have, ironically, been denigrated for over a century by evangelical Christian apologists as the emissaries of Satan sent to discredit the scriptures. I will be using classical scholars as sources in this article (I already have quite extensively), but, for the parts dealing with the life of Jesus as portrayed in the gospels I will be relying primarily on reputable New Testament scholars, who are, after all, the ones who have spent their lives studying this subject. -- 2401:) will conceive and give birth to a son. The story is rooted in Jewish tradition, not Greek mythology. Early Christians believed that Jesus was conceived without sexual intercourse, which is completely different from how demigods in classical mythology were typically conceived: as the result of a physical union between an anthropomorphic god and a mortal woman. I am planning to add an explanation of the story's Jewish background to the article, but I have not had time yet. 1929:! This article is a joke. Every single opening paragraph ends with a statement that "most historians disagree ..." or similar. The citations are rubbish; they state things like "surely everyone agrees ...", while others are just the opinion of a single person (e.g. Richard Carrier), who was obviously included purely on the grounds that he subscribes to the views presented in the article. The reasoning being that if Richard even agrees, then it must be true! Disaster. 1171: 31: 261:("leading" according to the author) were unanimous was in dismissing the suggested etymologies for Jesus and Christ. While nothing in the reference indicates that they were unanimous on any other aspect of the claims Gasque attempted to dispute, apparently someone felt inclined to write that they were unanimous in disputing all claims. The reference itself is devoid of certain facts (such as Alvin Boyd Kuhn having a Phd). 2180:

mythological life of christ to the lives of other god/martyr figures throughout history, a broader series of topics than the 6 most cherrypicked and disputable instances might be a good idea. Fully agreee with below talk, this article reads like scholars nearly universally agree christ was unique and christianity didn't borrow any themes from his life from other places. That's simply not factual in any way whatsoever.

2744:). Whatever the case he's certainly not a classicist, and for discussion regarding classical mythology and classical mystery cults, I believe we should be referring to scholars in classical studies, preferably in peer-reviewed works. Currently Ehrman is cited dozens of times in this article. In time, I'll go through the article and bring in superior, peer-reviewed sources to replace Ehrman's general audience book. 1682:– I would've thought this would be sufficiently uncontroversial to do it myself, but a move to this title was reverted a few years ago, referring to talk page discussion. There hasn't been an RM, though some discussion in Archive 1 shows the rationale for "Christ" being that the article discusses Jesus as Messiah. But so do many Jesus articles. I don't think that's a good reason to deviate from the parent article, 2785:. Classicists are authorities on classical culture, whereas theology is a far shakier field in this regard. We are therefore wise to turn to classicists when discussing figures such as Mithras or Dionysus, and we should really be sticking to peer-reviewed stuff as a rule of thumb, as I suggest above. The bar is far higher for peer-reviewed works than otherwise, particularly in a field like classical studies. 2766:, to cite scholars on early Christianity. (Ehrman's expertise includes the history of Christianity up to the fourth century, as he himself even mentions in the article I link to here.) I do not understand your insistence that we should only cite classicists and not scholars on early Christianity, since this article is at least equally as much about early Christianity as it is about classical antiquity. -- 1906:

unique challenges: How many of these "scholarly sources" are in fact defenses of the religion—in this case Christianity—that the author holds? How many of these sources are from Christian institutions? How many of these sources are actually from people working in relevant fields, such as folkloristics, rather than theology and religious studies? This is a real issue with this article as well as

1045: 2450:

byproduct of the classical world, and the circumstances of Dionysus's birth are so unique that the comparison between the two are obvious. A sky god impregnating a mortal woman and producing a demigod was hardly unknown in the classical world, the exact mechanisms in this particular narrative aside. There's plenty of scholarship pointing this out to draw from for this article.

622:

compare Jesus to the child Horus because of his conception, sometime they compare Jesus to the father of Horus, i.e. Osiris because he semi-resurrected. Not that I can be bothered to work on this topic here any more, but do not expect rigor in this subject. From my study of the subject, most authors in the field seem to have had 5 beers too many when they write on the topic.

640:! I was hoping more for an actual point-by-point addressing of each thing listed in their videos. Some Egyptologist may be shaking her head right now, going, "I've got to address that list!" I'd take each point, and then address it by comparing it with all that is extant regarding Horus. (I presume I am remembering correctly, and that those lists didn't say Osiris!) :-) 2068:. We then launch into a section discussing how scholars have identified strong parallels with preexisting narratives regarding Dionysus in the very same gospel. Sandmel is indeed the odd man out here. This stuff from Sandmel used to be in the lead of the article. I don't see why this obscure article from the 1960s is still so prominently positioned in the article. 998:- most of the scholar is this area are NOT Christian apologetics. Even the authors on Christian historical/archeological peer-reviewed journals are split pretty evenly among those that believe the Bible is true and those that believe that most of it is allegorical. Beyond that, scholarship in this area has been driven by non-Christians for almost 200 yrs. 2337:

religions of antiquity are perhaps more startling than their differences. Orpheus and Christ share attributes in the early centuries of our era, Dionysus has most in common with the figure of Christ ... Indeed, the association of Christ with the vine frequently led to the use of the myths and attributes of Dionysus in early Christian iconography."

299:

doctorate. In any case, it's one thing to point out that some people disagree with Massey, it's another thing entirely to add misleading text to a wiki when the reference clearly doesn't support the statement that precedes the citation. There's an awful lot of Christian bias and spin going on with the misuse of referenced material.

2682:, a theologian. This is particularly notable so far in our section on Mithras. Ehrman is by no means a specialist on the topic of Mithras and classical mystery cults, and I believe that we should be using superior sources than Ehrman's general audience-aimed book length argument for the historicity of Jesus ( 100:

what I have read, it is also apparent that there are some connections to "Osiris-Dionysus" in particular (turning water into wine, the anointment of Jesus, the eucharist ritual, etc.)... But I don't see a parallel between Christian beliefs and Buddhism, or between the life of Jesus and the life of Buddha.

2449:

First, the section I remove made not a single mention of Jesus. I ask for the courtesy of close attention to what I'm doing and saying. As I said, scholars frequently discuss the many shared similarities between narratives surrounding the lives of Dionysus and Jesus. After all, the New Testament is a

2087:

Third, the current structure of the article is confusing for the author and, I'd argue, wrong-headed. We need to be approaching narratives regarding Jesus in a chronological manner, from early non-biblical accounts, to biblical accounts, to medieval folklore, and into modern popular culture, tackling

1939:

There should be one "Critics" section at the bottom of this article in which objections to the Jesus Myth theory could be placed, with their citations properly reviewed! Imagine if every WP article was like this one, and you were trying to read about the moon landing for example, and were constantly

1378:

I was annoyed by the repeated reversion against the wishes of two editors without discussing it first. It doesn't matter if he was right on substance, I just wanted to have the discussion first. We're now having that discussion. If you're correct, then the source is not reliable and I don't object to

1294:

You have made your Bold move, which has been Reverted by two different wikipedians and now needs to be Discussed first before it can be added back. This is standard Knowledge policy and cannot be negotiated. Edit-warring will not be tolerated and may lead to a block. It doesn't matter whether you are

714:

All indications are that Massey was hardly aware of the use of historical sources in any case. In this case he seems to have just matched the names at the phonetic level. If you read through Massey you will see how he leaps from conclusion to conclusion. And sources indicate that scholarship does not

441:

On that note, I took another look and I do not even know why the sections are what they are and there seems to be confusion all around. The title of the article is "comparative mythology" and there is a section on that. But it is treated on the same level as other items, and what gets compared is not

2859:

I've been through this process with an academic press myself. From experience, your description is correct. The key point is that, generally speaking, beyond that early peer review (which usually consists of a few chapters, an outline, and a few other items), the fact-checking process is generally a

2408:

In reply to your earlier comment about not using "theologians" as sources, I will briefly comment that the word "theologian" is a highly specific term which fringe theorists have often misapplied as a pejorative to anyone who studies the New Testament, including - for completely inexplicable reasons

775:

I'd be interested to know how weakness and strength in parallels are measured, and therefore relevance in mentioning them in the article. Also, what are the criteria for classifying information/theory as "fringe?" I'm not being argumentative; I just want to know how one determines what goes in the

540:

I think they meant to say Dupuis and Volney. But that section is full of larger errors anyway, e.g. it thinks Bauer was the first academic, but in fact Bauer picked up on the works of Strauss who had presented formal arguments earlier. I may as well touch that section up, remove WP:OR etc. anyway...

321:

No, you can't argue that anyone's views are disregarded by scholars. You can't say that Einstein's views are disregarded by scholars. IOt is not Christian bias to say that Massey's views are fringe, since you don't need to be a Christian to believe that. Believing wildly unlikely nonsense is usually

228:

Added original research tag to the statement: "Among the comparanda, observation of mere mythic universals or "archetypes" needs to be distinguished from claims of historical influence, or common historical origin. Only when features can be shown to be parallel in highly specific detail can a common

79:

Indeed amusing, but once is enough. Perhaps the IP's point is that the article is what is technically known in the field as "crap"? You have to wonder when "....in modern scholarship since the 19th century, that Jesus Christ has striking parallels to other deities worshipped in Hellenistic religion,

2938:

Freudian lens, which sometimes leads him to bizarre, highly fringe conclusions, such as that Jesus's resurrection is, in fact, a symbolic for him regaining an erection and that it represents a triumph over his father and him fulfilling his secret desire to have sex with his mother, the Virgin Mary.

2637:

Another point that might be worth making is that it is only in the later gospels that Jesus first becomes seen as the literal "son of God." He is described as the "son of God" in the earlier gospels, but this is intended figuratively, in the same way that King David is described as the "son of God"

2396:

The section is not "defending" anything. It is talking about similarities and differences between Jesus and classical mythology. The story of the virgin birth of Jesus was invented independently by the authors of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke (or the independent sources they relied upon) in order

2106:

Once again, I apologize for my initial comment; you have done a fantastic job with all our Norse mythology articles and I was merely stating that the historical background of the New Testament does not seem to be your area of expertise. My plan from the very beginning has been to write this article

1273:

4) The "Wise Men from the East" suggest Zoroastrian influence on Christianity -- and perhaps on the Hebrew religion. Zoroastrianism (Zarathustra) is also an apocalyptic religion based in never-ending battled between good and evil and could have influence both the Hebrew and Christian religions as

561:

In the videos Zeitgeist and Religulous, we find lists comparing Horus and Jesus. However, no mention of that is made in the article (or here in Talk). I'd like to see those lists either substantiated or refuted. Maybe such would require a separate article. Is there one? After I saw one or the other

464:

and uses texts about Egypt that have no references to Christianity, but juxtaposes them to draw analogies that are not present in the sources. That is just pure WP:OR. And using the great, great scholarship of Bill Maher is jus breathtaking. Where does Maher teach? Oxford? Harvard? Stanford? Or the

103:

I am not in a position to espouse the idea of a link to Hellenistic beliefs, but I am certainly not the first or only person to have noted such a possibility. And if an article is supposed to be about "Jesus and Comparative Mythology" (The story of Jesus/Christian beliefs, compared to similar Pagan

2803:

By the way, you keep talking about "peer-reviewed" works, but technically books do not undergo peer-review; that is only for journal articles. Instead, academic books are checked for accuracy by their respective publishers, not usually by a panel of the author's peers. If the publisher does send a

2404:

I do not know what your background or intentions are, but there is an enormous quantity of fringe material that has been written on this subject, mostly by untrained amateurs, based on extremely vague and often exaggerated similarities. I certainly will not deny that Christian perceptions of Jesus

2381:

I've just pulled a section on divine birth. It seemed to be defending something but it didn't come out and say what it was: was the goal to highlight Jesus's birth from a sky god — Yahweh — and Mary, a mortal woman, as somehow incomparable to the union of Zeus and Semele that produced Dionysus? Of

2009:

Furthermore, what Sandmel is actually criticizing is not the study of legitimate pagan influence on later Christianity, but rather the massive quantity of material that has been produced - primarily by a regrettable strand of remarkably shoddy scholarship in the late nineteenth and early twentieth

616:

e/c The vidoes are not scholarly works. In fact, that entire subject has been ruled by confusion for about a century. Massey, who started it was so confused that he thought Herod was based on the myth of Herrut, etc. There are modern authors like Harpur (who draws on Massey), but disagreements are

107:

PS: If you have any interest in what the gospels actually say, and in what the first gospel most likely said (and in what ways, and why the experts got it all wrong), you should go to Amazon and check out: "Did Jesus Really Say That?!! - A Restoration of the First Gospel" (or at least download the

99:

It seems pretty clear that there are some general connections with Hellenistic beliefs (heaven and hell, immediate afterlife in one of those spiritual realms versus the "sleep of death" while waiting for a mass resurrection of God's people and the start of his righteous kingdom on earth). And from

2290:

This is a notice to let everyone know that I am planning on probably significantly revising much of this article and expanding it. I do not know how soon this will be or how long it will take, because I am probably going to be much busier for the next month or so than I have been for the past few

1019:

One look at the introduction tells me there's a problem here. What we're seeing in this introduction is Christian exceptionalism; it's unacademic to refuse to acknowledge that the cluster of motifs surrounding this particular figure are not well mirrored elsewhere, and quite strongly so. As these

2275:

If we want to improve this article, it should focus less on the whole "Christ Myth" conspiracy theory that Jesus was actually secretly a pagan god-man who was adapted by early Christians (an idea which has been rejected by scholars) and instead focus on how early Christians modeled some of their

1500:

This page needs to be taken down or heavily edited, it speaks from an obviously biased perspective that ignores a large body of research, including acknowledged historical documents that contain similarities to the Jesus mythos. Also overexaggerates consensus among non-affiliated researchers. No

779:

If the purpose of the article is to articulate the features of the Christ figure (as it has evolved) in Christian culture and how those features parallel with other religious/mythical/archetypal figures before and after the time of the historical Jesus, I would think that the birth story in the

621:

to test these things anyway. The only test is when people make dramatic errors like those of Massey about names, dates etc. Wells has also written about analogies, but he is a professor of German, and MacLeod disagrees, etc. The thing to remember is that the confusion is two fold, sometimes they

406:

states that the suggestions that an adult Jesus traveled to Egypt or India and came into contact with Buddhism are "without historical foundation". Although modern parallels between the teachings of Jesus and Buddha have been drawn, these comparisons emerged after missionary contacts in the 19th

2817:

undergo a fact-checking process, but it is nothing like a traditional peer-review as most people often think of it. I found this out the hard way also, when another user explained this to me during a particularly intense argument after I mistakenly referred to academic books as undergoing "peer

2758:

His background is in theology, but he can hardly be considered a "theologian" since he does not believe in any kind of deity and the fundamental assumption behind the entire field of theology is that a Deity of some kind exists. Here is an article Ehrman wrote on his blog about the relationship

2336:

For example, ignoring my bookshelf, a quick Google Books search returns scores scholars in classical studies mentioning strong correspondences between Jesus and Dionysus in peer-reviewed works published by university presses (just a quick example: "The correspondence of Christianity and mystery

1905:

Right now this article does its damnedest to portray Christianity as an exceptional religion that somehow appeared in a vacuum, exactly followed it scriptural narrative, and had no influence from the world around it. It stands as an example of how writing about Christianity in the west presents

2725:

who accuse him of being anti-Christian. He describes himself as a "historian," not a "theologian," a descriptor which is clearly borne out by his works, which are almost all about history, rather than theology (which is hardly surprising, considering that he does not believe in God). The worst

260:

Next the wiki points out that "W. Ward Gasque conducted a world-wide poll of twenty leading Egyptologists to verify if there was any academic support for these claims. The scholars were unanimous in dismissing the claimed parallels." In looking at the reference, the only time the Egyptologists

2967:

That said, Dundes remains a major and highly influential figure in folkloristics, and while we shouldn't lean on him at every turn, his comparisons and discussions in the lens of folkloristics (myth being a genre of folklore, after all), merits inclusion. I'll take a closer look at the piece.

2799:

I have added citations to a work solely devoted to the Mithraic Cult, published by the Oxford University Press, to support the information in the section. Nonetheless, I still insist that Ehrman is a completely reliable source of information about early Christianity and its relations to other

2697:

on this topic and the general topic of mystery religions in the classical world and their influence on Christianity, and I see no evident reason to lean so strongly into Ehrman's book. Surely we can do a lot better. Additionally, when scholars interject opinions, we must be very careful about

2484:

is in fact used in the academic world, and there's ultimately a big difference between a theologian and a classicist. This difference is amplified when a theologian is strongly affiliated with, say, an institution like Liberty University. We should be noting scholar backgrounds and identities

2179:

Just an anonymous reader browsing, but I agree with the earlier talk. Worst bias I have personally ever seen on Knowledge. There is a noticeable lack of inclusion of the mythology of a variety of religions in addition to previously noted issues. If this is an article attempting to compare the

1076:

In the Overview, the phrase "and most scholars agree that any such historical influence is entirely implausible given that first century monotheistic Galilean Jews would not have been open to pagan stories." implies that the "entire implausibility" of pagan influence is a FACT, to which "most

298:

You can argue that anyone's views are disregarded by scholars. But it's misleading to suggest that "most" disagree with him when there's no evidence supporting that statement. The reference in question paints Kuhn as being no more than high school teacher, as opposed to being a scholar with a

279:

Actually, that sort of wording does belong. We are obliged to point out when views are marginal or "fringe". I've no idea what you mean by "The reference itself is devoid of certain facts (such as Alvin Boyd Kuhn having a Phd)." We do not gratuitously list people's degrees. Dead links do not

256:

Changed some very subjective text that doesn't seem to belong in the Ancient Egypt area. Starting with "Most contemporary Egyptologists believe these parallels are not true and are pseudo-scientific," two of the references are dead, and every other reference offers no facts that supports the

2322:

for information on this topic rather than, say, theologians. Comparisons between New Testament narratives surrounding Jesus and, say, Dionysus and Prometheus are not at all uncommon, and would be (and are) pretty obvious to a classical audience (or an audience trained in classical studies).

1996:

Sandmel's criticism of comparisons between Jesus and pagan figures is not at all fringe. I hope I do not offend you when I say that I am getting a distinct impression that you are very unfamiliar with New Testament scholarship. The fact is that it is generally agreed that pagan influence on

2077:

In fact, I'd argue that a lot of the defenses against Christ-as-entirely-myth stuff needs to be sectioned off into its own article. This isn't what this article is about, and right now the article looks like more of an attack on that position than a straightforward discussion of narratives

1526:

Christianity as it developed in the 1st century was largely shaped by (and, in my own opinion, in the mind of) one Saul aka Paul raised in the Pagan-dedicated city of Tarsus (Bel-Tarshish) in Asia Minor, who successfully marginalized the Galilean Jews, including Jesus' relatives (see the

2145:(2014) by M. David Litwa. I've never gotten around to reading it, and not every connection between Jesus and paganism is "mythology" per se, but it does at least seem to address the nativity stories' resemblance to divine birth myths. And it's not a fringe book, having been reviewed by 2800:

religions. I do not think it should alter his level of credibility depending on whether you happen to consider him a "theologian" or a "historian." (I personally still insist that "historian" is a far more accurate descriptor, since history is what he primarily concerns himself with.)

2726:

criticism I have read about him from other scholars is that a few have accused him of merely parroting the scholarly consensus in his popular works, which, for our purposes, is actually a good thing. There is no rational excuse for why he would not be considered a reliable source. --

2354:

Currently, Knowledge is treating this as pretty fringe topic — largely a result of leaning on theologians rather than, say, classicists — and it shouldn't stay that way. We also need a topic discussing what influence this constant discourse has had since, say, the Enlightenment.

877:

At present we've got a persistent IP editor adding unsourced content to this and another article. Feel free to revert and block on site, no additional warnings required. If the editor persists in IP hopping, then I'll protect the article, but I'd rather not if it can be avoided.

2572:

I did not say that "theologian" was not a real academic term; it is very much so. I was just saying that it has often been misapplied by people who are unaware of New Testament historical criticism, which is the most relevant field for much of the information in this article.

1122:'s proposal, still includes "entirely" - I assume this was meant to read "... and most scholars agree that any such historical influence is implausible given that first century monotheistic Galilean Jews would not have been open to pagan stories." ? - is this acceptable? - 388:

There has been speculation that Jesus lived in India for a while. The International Society for Krishna Consciousness has stated that it sees Krishna/Vishnu as similar to Jesus and a good alternative. Among some Hindus, Jesus is seen as a shaktavesha avatar, or an empowered

2860:

lot more thorough than with non-academic presses. Some presses are far more hands-on than others. That said, that initial peer-review can make a big difference in the final product. All things considered, we're best off sticking to peer-reviewed articles wherever possible.

1416:

This entire article is less about "Jesus Christ in comparative mythology" than a dogmatic dismissal of all attempts to note (in a scholarly manner) that there are indeed mythic parallels between Christianity and other religions. Derrick Chapman 15:23, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

1092:

Would it be acceptable simply to remove the word "entirely"? The text would then become: "... and most scholars agree that any such historical influence is entirely implausible given that first century monotheistic Galilean Jews would not have been open to pagan stories."

2933:

I am highly skeptical about placing full trust in Dundes for anything, since (1) he is folklorist, not a New Testament scholar or historian of early Christianity (or even a classicist for that matter), and (2) his works interpret essentially everything through a very,

958:

The claims in the article such as "that first century monotheistic Galilean Jews would not have been open to pagan myths" would seem to be plainly false. Because there is considerable motive for bias in such claims, the disposition (i.e. potential for bias) of the

562:

video (or both), I tried to find either confirmation or refutation online, but was unsuccessful at the time. Perhaps there are historically-based point-by-point discussions (not just people arguing) about those that editors here can point us to? LInks? :) Thanks!

2720:

Ehrman is a widely respected expert on early Christianity who has written dozens of both scholarly and popular works on the subject. He is not a "theologian" in any traditional sense of the word; he is a secular agnostic. In fact, his strongest critics are all

2313:

Hello, Katolophyromai. I recommend rewriting this article from scratch. It's not worth your time now (or in the future) to deal with the many barbed problems that the current article presents and promotes. I also suggest that you look first and foremost to

943:

Probably because the vast majority of scholars that deal with this issue are Christian apologetics (sadly). To History2007, the entire field of Jesus is mostly speculation as is the nature of ancient history, and especially in terms of religious entities.

356:

a god. This is the identical kind of nonsense that Christians are accused of - making giant leaps in judgement about something that is out of context or can't be proven. So either these sections are really poorly written or I'm missing something important.

80:

specifically to the cult of Dionysus in the Greek mystery religions and with the Buddha." since modern scholarship as a whole notes no such thing about Dionysus, and with Buddha, that would be fringe among fringe. At least the Buddha nonsense could go.

2140:

If I may interject something, Katolophyromai's characterization of NT scholarship seems to be correct, based on my very general understanding of it, but I'd like to point out a possible source that pushes back a little against the scholarly consensus:

1259:

Of COURSE there is no evidence about the NT authors. What this neat obfuscatory technique does is distract from whence the pagan influence MAY have come. And of course, absence of evidence is not evidence of absense. Some open minds might be useful:

2917:

on this topic. It's something I've been meaning to do. I think we should consider bringing in some of his commentary regarding the approaches of theologians and folklorist neglect of this material, as he makes some unique and very on-topic points.

1660:. In a descriptive title like this one, we normally use the parent article's title, unless it would be confusing in context. Here, it is difficult to even imagine a scenario where a person would find Jesus to be ambiguous without Christ appended.-- 691:

Out of curiosity, was Massey's comparison between Herod and Herrut based on aspects of Herod that are not accounted by historical sources, such as Herod's personality that somehow transfered from Herrut? This would be interesting to mention...

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The issue of the Old Testament is a very different game, because early Christianity directly quoted the OT anyway, and the NT inherently refers to the OT. So that needs a small section, but is really not a big issue here, and belongs in the

2762:. In any case, I will admit it is probably better to cite an expert on Mithraic cult for information about the cult itself, but, for information about the cult's relationship to early Christianity, it is perfectly acceptable, and indeed 232:

Samuel Sandmel does not make any of these statements in the citation given. Sandmel's argument in the essay was "The key word in my essay is extravagance. I am speaking words of caution about exaggerations about the parallels".

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If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Knowledge regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary

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deities and beliefs), then a section that is titled "New Testament Narrative" should at least have some relevance to the rest of the article (such as note the portions of the NT narrative that might have resulted from such links).

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As anyone who has followed my work here for the past decade or so knows, I don't bother to discuss fringe sources unless I'm removing them or inserting material discussing them. This is why you'll note that I repeatedly mention

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this page is badly organised, there should be clear cut table and lists for similarities between (Christian Jesus,Islamic Jesus,Jewish Jesus) and Horus and mythat etc for people to decide if the similarities are random or not

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in the Book of Psalms. Jews during this time period applied the title to anyone who was seen as especially close to God or like a son to Him, but they did not believe that He was actually capable of having literal offspring. --

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Hmm, I'm afraid that's not quite accurate. One does not need to maintain any specific religious beliefs to gain entry to any academic field, which includes theology (as controversial as the field may be). For example, see

2405:(especially in later times) were influenced by pagan mythology, but there are a lot of comparisons out there that simply are not valid and are not accepted by mainstream scholars. It will be necessary to provide rebuttals. 1470:

I refer to the pattern followed by most paragraphs, in which a parallel is noted, then dismissed with a sentence effectively saying most Biblical scholars refute the parallel. Derrick Chapman 22:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

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That's pretty funny - I had never heard of "pastafarianism" :-) And yes, Apparently, this "crappy" article is an attempt by some religious-minded types to counter some of the literature that is contrary to their beliefs.

1622:). This may constitute Close Paraphrasing as described in the wikipedia guidelines, although it is not paraphrased, but more or less identical. As one cannot edit this article, maybe an admin can look over this issue. ( 322:

the bias of religious dogmatists. It's sad when opponents of a religion resort to it. It's like replacing one myth with another instead of with reason. Show me any respected Egyptologist who supports Massey's views.

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scholars agree". A more unbiased statement would be "any such historical influence would be entirely implausible", although the rest of the article argues against such uniqueness and isolation of the N.T. writers.

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An editor is trying to assert that 'pagan' simply means 'non-Christian', which makes the sentence they are editing self-contradictory. Early Christians observed Jewish customs, which are inherently non-Christian.--

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1) Abraham, who hailed from Ur in Sumer in Mesopotamia in Iraq -- who KNOWS what gods he was exposed to and what he took with him and discarded en route from Iraq to the Jerusalem Metropolitan area and monotheism.

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Not to get too echo-ey here, but have to agree with the above. I was curious about the subject, came here, and am left feeling like I need to look elsewhere to get any sort of useful academic view on the subject.

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that the Gospel of John was influenced by Dionysus. (Indeed, many scholars have proposed equally credible explanations that the wine imagery in the gospel may simply be based on passages from the Old Testament.)

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I understand your concerns about Dundes's fondness for psychoanalysis. It's not something I'm particularly fond of myself, and it falls outside of the topic of this article, anyway (it's not exactly comparative

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of those claims should be stated in the article. The Jewish culture was greatly affected by surrounding nations, and there is little reason at all to believe they 'would not have been open' to pagan mythology.--

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Regarding Yahweh — regardless of earlier strata, by this point the concept of Yahweh was long intermixed with El and other notable contemporaries, and thus the sky associations are pretty clearly pronounced.

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around 50-60 AD anyway - and some scholars point to pre-Pauline creeds as well. So I am afraid your assumption of the order of he development path of the gospel stories does not match the scholarly view, the

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And so follows my second point: I did not say that we should not cite theologians. I said we should be focused on classicists and I'm glad we agree on that point. However, I need to point out that the term

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Even a statement within the lede has a citation needed tag on it! And the Old Testament section and the single Q statement there and the Isiah assumption is both non-representative of scholarly views, and

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This may not be the same as asking for "highly specific detail". Moreover Sandmel seems like someone associated with Society of Biblical Literature. Does it not violate NPOV as the source might be biased?

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Also, keep in mind this article is still very much a work in progress. Any issues you see in the current version may very well be ones that I am aware of and am planning to address in further revisions.

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Why do these editors insist on helping the critics of Knowledge. If we cannot write (or let others write) objectively about things we don't necessarily agree with, then WP will never be taken seriously.

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Maybe someone here could actually create a separate article that focuses on each point in both of those lists (Zeitgeist and Religulous). Anyone Egypt- and Horus-savvy enough? It'll need Citations! :D

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One obvious "elephant in the room" is that the article pushes the argument that "first century monotheistic Galilean Jews would not have been open to pagan myths." This ignores counter-arguments that:

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article. There is plenty of material of a far higher quality in that article and there is no point in doing a botched representation of that. It just needs a smaller section with a Main link there.

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I would bundle the Mithraic elements within the Roman as a subsection given that they were 1st/2nd century and not very old like the Egyptian items. The Egyptian section is just loaded, loaded with

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Ok. We have an unpublished paper which isn't available at the link and doesn't seem to be discussed by other scholars. It wasn't published in either of the books that came out of the symposium.

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articles are generally a war zone, I can't take the time to get involved, but it's clear to me that at least the introduction needs a rewrite. I haven't much looked at the rest of the article.

2242:, is because the Gospel of Matthew is intentionally trying to portray Jesus as a "new Moses" and, according to the Book of Exodus, Moses received the Ten Commandments atop Mount Sinai. The 2206:, which has been universally rejected by mainstream scholarship. Real scholars have examined stories about Jesus in the context of comparative mythology, but they agree on several factors: 2055:

In a 1962 article, Samuel Sandmel, a Jewish rabbi and professor of Bible and Hellenistic literature at the Hebrew Union College, criticizes attempts to argue that the portrayal of Jesus

2153:. Litwa's views may not be a significant enough minority viewpoint to include here—you'd have to know the field better than I do in order to say—but I thought it was worth mentioning. 1520:

Jewish monotheism was not fully established until much later than suggested by the now-extant Jewish texts, written by monotheists who won the argument and suppressed dissenting views;

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I'm asking you and the others involved to comment on the merit. You reinstated it twice - looks like you were editwarring to enforce BRD, which is a guideline, not a rule. I'm hoping

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If you can't handle the subject matter because you're a bible-thumper closed to research and speculation, then leave the page alone. This isn't the "Refute Jesus is Mythology" page.

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review." I just thought I would let you know this for future reference. I understand perfectly well that you are referring to books published by reputable academic publishers. --

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The subjective writing for this wiki is most obvious with the comment "Although considered fringe pseudo-science, Massey's views..." That sort of wording simply doesn't belong.

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I think Dundes ought to be fine as a source, as long as he is cited critically and in light of what other scholars have written on the subject. (After all, I already cite

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I agree with the above comments. This is the single worst article I've read on Knowledge. No attempt is made at all to adopt a neutral point of view. It's nonsensical.

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Then there is a section that tries to repeat the Christ myth theory page, but again does not do a good job at all. And this article seems to have been stuck during the

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Hello! Well, looking at Ehrman's CV, it appears that he is indeed a theologian, regardless of how he'd prefer to phrase it (Ehrman, for example, received his PhD from

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Agree at least as far as 'heavily editing', although I wonder if the material is not repeated or could be dispersed among several of the linked articles in 'See Also.'

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5) The clincher: the snake tempts Eve with the fruit by telling her "ye will be as gods" -- incorrectly translated in most accounts as "ye shall surely not die"..."

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I'll sidestep what appears to be a personal attack and, again, ask that you look closely at what I've written. First, the section from the article reads as follows:

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My apologies for jumping the gun there, in that case. If you're developing paragraphs in a draft page, I'd be glad to help out where and when possible, by the way.

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topics like attempts at modern era Christians to remove what they deem to be the "myth" versus "fact", full-throttle evangelical stuff, and pop culture stuff like

1238:. The definition of the CMT is currently disputed, and this article is carrying a definition which is not as per the reliable sources. Please see the talk page at 1847: 1843: 1829: 123:

Hello 76.28.177.80, unfortunately referring us on Talk to a self-published source (with all respect to Mr. Alan Barber) is not the way to progress on Knowledge.

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states that modern scholarship has "almost unanimously agreed" that claims of the travels of Jesus to Tibet, Kashmir or India contain "nothing of value".

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and it is the primary topic for than name. The disambiguation term "Jesus Christ" is unnecessary. What other Jesus is relevant to comparative mythology?

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and were outdated long before Knowledge stared. I think that should also become just a higher quality shorter section with a Main to Christ Myth theory.

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course, Dionysus narratives are frequently compared to Jesus narratives in classical studies, including narratives about their births and early lives.

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mythology in their creation of new stories about Jesus, not on pagan myths. For example, the reason why Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew gives his first

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Is there a BA nomination process? This article is so full of original research, error after error it is laughable. And it has advert links in it, say:

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2) The Jews have a lot of experience with Egypt: Moses, the Red Sea thing, who knows what Egyptian gods might have crossed the Red Sea with them.

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right or not, you need to establish consensus first. The correct place to bring up arguments is right here on Talk, not in further edit summaries.

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Thanks. It's easy to show that Kessler wasn't published in the books from ths Symposium. Which explains why his idea isn't discussed by others.

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Actually I always thought this page was pretty fair. If you think a statement is baseless and without reference, flag it. I also disagree with

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take his work seriously. But he was there first, so started the discussions and is known and noted for that, not the solidity of his research.

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Opinions of a mythical Christ originate in the late 18th century with Charles François Dupuis. In works published in the 1790s, both argued...

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ERROR: "there is no evidence of a historical influence by the pagan myths such as dying and rising gods on the authors of the New Testament"

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invalidate references. I will have a look at the text, however there is no doubt that Massey's views are disregarded by modern Egyptologists.

1675: 1055: 836:. So you need to have a few "mainstream WP:RS" references to draw the parallel. Reading the Bible and Buddah's birth stories by ourselves is 2427:, which is a kind of deity specific to the ancient Near East. Although Yahweh did eventually absorb some sky god aspects from the chief god 1971: 1487: 1433: 2698:

attributing those opinions to maintain neutrality. I've noticed a few incidents where that hasn't been the case so far in this article.

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book to be checked by the author's peers, they usually only send out a representative sample, not the whole book. (see, for instance,

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Please respond at the bottom if you expect anyone to respond to your posts. This article discusses similarities and differences (see

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The paragraph you removed was the beginning of one of the new sections I am starting. I had not had a chance yet to fully develop it.

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was directly influenced by pagan mythological figures, stating that such arguments are flawed and based solely on vague similarities.

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

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If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;

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template. (Note that this message is purely procedural; if consensus is established for the change, then it may be implemented)

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There is a Main link anyway, and the birth story comparisons are perhaps the weakest parallels and generally considered fringe.

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Gospel of Luke, which seems a very prominent aspect of the mythical Jesus figure, would be relevant to discuss parallels to.

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Van Voorst, Robert E (2000). Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence. Eerdmans Publishing.

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mention anywhere of the stories with major similarities that do overlap and pre-date. Probably best to just take it down.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20080421032154/http://www.huss.ex.ac.uk/classics/conferences/pagan_monotheism/abstracts.html

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

1594:, and constantly ignore all consensuses. This behavior is repeated across several articles related to the same topic. 2423:

Oh, also, (This is really nitpicky, but it will bother me if I do not say it.) Yahweh was not a "sky god"; he was a

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Nonetheless, I will see what I can make of him. Some of his work might be useful, if supported by other works. --

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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the

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century, and there is no historically reliable evidence of contacts between Buddhism and Jesus during his life.

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The Buddhism section has a 1873 and a 1906 reference... Both predate WWI and are outdated non-WP:RS items.

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Introductory texts in some current classical studies programs make the comparisons pretty clear as well.

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If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with

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The examples described in this article are the ones that are most commonly cited by supporters of the

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well as Islam. Or erhaps this is a meme which springs forth eternal unbidden in all human religions?

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If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;

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were rightly reverted. The article is rubbish, yes, but it won't be improved by more IPs adding more

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to fulfill the mistranslated Greek Septuagint version of Isaiah 7:14, which states that a "virgin" (

2111:, which is why the previous revision of the article talked about the Christ Myth theory so much.) -- 2987: 2973: 2940: 2923: 2908: 2875: 2865: 2854: 2819: 2790: 2767: 2749: 2727: 2703: 2639: 2628: 2574: 2558: 2436: 2410: 2387: 2360: 2292: 2277: 2239: 2235: 2158: 2112: 2097: 2035: 2019: 1941: 1915: 1203: 1025: 1003: 825: 585: 362: 184:

New stuff goes at the bottom. The Abrahamic religions different views of Jesus are covered in the

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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template

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The balance of this article badly need redressing. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195}

1450:. Please present evidence when you make accusations, otherwise they come off as disingenuous. 781: 2811: 1866: 1615: 3051: 3032: 3013: 2760: 2259: 2246:

from the Gospel of Matthew and subsequent return to Judaea is clearly modeled on the story of

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months, which means I will most likely have less time to spend editing here on Knowledge. --

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Anyway, just a note that I have now cleaned it up, added sources, etc. and removed the tags

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The editor (who is almost certainly either a sock or a sock-master, see discussion here

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Any reason why there is no mention of Buddha's birth in this article? Seems pertinent:

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If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with

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for why differences must be discussed), instead of discussing only one or the other

131:. If you want to contribute to Knowledge then please register, read up on Knowledge 2782: 2424: 2251: 1317: 1123: 854: 837: 833: 829: 481: 461: 421: 203: 128: 2914: 1839: 1756: 1595: 1314: 1311: 1243: 526: 403: 46:

If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the

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And the Society of Consciousness maybe a subconscious spam link, who knows...

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http://www.huss.ex.ac.uk/classics/conferences/pagan_monotheism/abstracts.html

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The first sentence is flatly rejected by scholars. What scholarship says is:

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Source Vetting and the Challenges of Writing an Article on a Living Religion

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https://en.wikipedia.org/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology#Ancient_Egypt

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And the list goes on.... This needs a rewrite by someone - myself excluded.

1910:, another minefield of an article. Right now this article is a total mess. 853:, etc. But that is another issue, yet an indication of the need not to do 2216: 1691: 1215: 850: 465:

comedy channel? The sourcing in this article is a sad joke. Just a joke.

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Judaism is widely regarded as a development from the pagan polytheistic

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administration, and keeps using sources from 1927. Those are no longer

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3) The Jews also had a lot of exposure to the gods of Nebuchadnezzar.

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http://nile.lub.lu.se/ojs/index.php/scandia/article/viewFile/1078/863

2267: 598:! Now if I can read about each point in the videos' two lists.... :) 1778:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal.

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Popular comparisons of Horus and Jesus: Zeitgeist and Religulous

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Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth

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stories about Jesus on stories found in the Old Testament. --

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The whole region had been under Greek hegemony for centuries;

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clearly structured. There are a few elements to compare to:

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for additional information. I made the following changes:

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I will agree with that. I understood what you meant. --

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from the Gospel of Luke is based on the account in the

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The following is a closed discussion of the proposal.

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If that is done, the confusion index here will drop.

2913:, I'd like to thank you for bringing in material by 1618:) is identical to one on the Gerald Massey Article ( 1338:

I wasn't addressing the merits, just the procedure.

1842:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors 1144:Uh... yeah. That's what I meant. Sorry about that. 448:

Greco-Roman items and their pagan practices/beliefs

3031:edited by James D. G. Dunn and Scot McKnight 2006 1551: 795:It is actually pretty straightforward. Please see 135:etc. and then slowly start to contribute. Cheers. 1620:https://en.wikipedia.org/Gerald_Massey#Criticism 893:Half This Article Reads Like a Christian Apology 2783:Knowledge's own category on atheist theologians 2678:I'm noticing a very heavy reliance on works by 737:http://en.wikipedia.org/Maya_(mother_of_Buddha) 2223:, he really was crucified under the orders of 1828:This message was posted before February 2018. 1234:This section is a summary of the main article 8: 1940:interrupted with advertising from critics. 202:And we can't decide what is similar, that's 1316:. Does anyone still want to argue it meets 2238:, but, in the Gospel of Luke, he gives it 2211:Behind all the mythological elaborations, 2181: 1798:I have just modified one external link on 1036:Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2014 577:Here's an earlier version of this article 1242:for the specific details of the dispute. 636:LOL. You could be right about the beers, 617:more common that agreements and there is 3029:The Historical Jesus in Recent Research 3005: 44:Do not edit the contents of this page. 2759:between Bible criticism and history: 1676:Jesus Christ in comparative mythology 1552:'Pagan' does not mean 'non Christian' 1206:for this alteration before using the 1056:Jesus Christ in comparative mythology 7: 1610:Close Paraphrasing/Identical content 2266:about the coming birth of her son, 2175:Nomination for Review of Neutrality 1588:is using Knowledge to push for the 1364:will read the above and remove it. 18:Talk:Jesus in comparative mythology 2213:Jesus was a real historical figure 1614:The passage about Porters stance ( 1448:in some attempt to prove something 525:Who are "both" in this context? -- 24: 2018:have any veracity behind them. -- 1802:. Please take a moment to review 454:Buddhist and Hindu belief systems 451:Egyptian items and analogies etc. 2674:Heavy Reliance on Bart D. Ehrman 1517:and must contain pagan elements; 1194: 1169: 1043: 29: 1656:The result of the proposal was 1638:Requested move 18 December 2015 1466:IN AN EFFORT TO PROVE SOMETHING 2742:Princeton Theological Seminary 1800:Jesus in comparative mythology 1680:Jesus in comparative mythology 1632:13:01, 24 September 2015 (UTC) 1291:Kessler on pagan monotheism" 687:00:48, 26 September 2012 (UTC) 668:05:31, 26 September 2012 (UTC) 650:00:48, 26 September 2012 (UTC) 632:13:38, 25 September 2012 (UTC) 608:00:48, 26 September 2012 (UTC) 590:13:37, 25 September 2012 (UTC) 572:13:22, 25 September 2012 (UTC) 551:14:25, 25 September 2012 (UTC) 512:13:38, 26 September 2012 (UTC) 216:06:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC) 198:00:23, 21 September 2011 (UTC) 177:22:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC) 1: 2633:18:55, 27 February 2018 (UTC) 2583:18:49, 27 February 2018 (UTC) 2563:18:40, 27 February 2018 (UTC) 2445:18:27, 27 February 2018 (UTC) 2419:18:18, 27 February 2018 (UTC) 2392:17:38, 27 February 2018 (UTC) 2365:21:31, 26 February 2018 (UTC) 2301:03:38, 23 February 2018 (UTC) 2286:10:53, 13 December 2017 (UTC) 2250:. Likewise, the story of the 2196:05:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC) 2121:18:13, 28 February 2018 (UTC) 2102:17:31, 28 February 2018 (UTC) 2044:01:46, 28 February 2018 (UTC) 2028:01:28, 28 February 2018 (UTC) 1965:01:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC) 1896:00:54, 25 November 2017 (UTC) 1771:15:04, 21 December 2015 (UTC) 1744:17:50, 19 December 2015 (UTC) 1722:17:08, 19 December 2015 (UTC) 1700:18:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC) 1670:19:21, 27 December 2015 (UTC) 1604:01:47, 15 February 2015 (UTC) 1575:01:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC) 867:14:20, 29 December 2012 (UTC) 790:13:54, 29 December 2012 (UTC) 770:15:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC) 754:14:56, 25 December 2012 (UTC) 725:15:25, 25 December 2012 (UTC) 708:15:01, 25 December 2012 (UTC) 658:this above regarding tables. 2219:, he really was baptized by 1980:10:55, 1 February 2018 (UTC) 1546:21:44, 6 February 2015 (UTC) 257:statement that precedes it. 247:16:46, 7 November 2011 (UTC) 2320:anthropologists of religion 1496:This page has no place here 1460:15:33, 15 August 2014 (UTC) 1070:to reactivate your request. 1058:has been answered. Set the 888:02:15, 4 October 2013 (UTC) 535:11:40, 30 August 2012 (UTC) 3085: 1925:You are bang on the money 1920:20:12, 10 April 2015 (UTC) 1859:(last update: 5 June 2024) 1795:Hello fellow Wikipedians, 1403:20:58, 21 April 2014 (UTC) 1389:18:43, 21 April 2014 (UTC) 1374:18:07, 21 April 2014 (UTC) 1348:17:02, 21 April 2014 (UTC) 1334:15:56, 21 April 2014 (UTC) 1305:15:30, 21 April 2014 (UTC) 1252:15:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC) 954:02:07, 19 April 2013 (UTC) 937:23:23, 17 April 2013 (UTC) 913:21:54, 17 April 2013 (UTC) 776:article and what doesn't. 497:08:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC) 437:17:39, 8 August 2012 (UTC) 290:12:30, 29 April 2012 (UTC) 274:09:13, 29 April 2012 (UTC) 3048:Jesus: The Complete Guide 2996:22:17, 3 March 2018 (UTC) 2978:21:22, 3 March 2018 (UTC) 2949:00:09, 3 March 2018 (UTC) 2928:21:22, 2 March 2018 (UTC) 2884:22:10, 3 March 2018 (UTC) 2870:22:06, 3 March 2018 (UTC) 2828:03:02, 3 March 2018 (UTC) 2795:18:53, 2 March 2018 (UTC) 2776:18:25, 2 March 2018 (UTC) 2754:17:14, 2 March 2018 (UTC) 2736:00:30, 2 March 2018 (UTC) 2708:23:17, 1 March 2018 (UTC) 2648:03:15, 2 March 2018 (UTC) 2230:Early Christians drew on 2163:03:07, 1 March 2018 (UTC) 2138:(wandering in from Egypt) 1950:05:48, 13 June 2016 (UTC) 1287:22:45, 30 June 2014 (UTC) 1230:POV at Christ Myth Theory 1030:21:55, 3 March 2014 (UTC) 1008:17:25, 3 March 2014 (UTC) 982:00:01, 1 March 2014 (UTC) 145:04:00, 17 July 2011 (UTC) 118:15:43, 16 July 2011 (UTC) 90:04:24, 11 July 2011 (UTC) 2689:There exists many, many 1781:Please do not modify it. 1648:Please do not modify it. 1224:01:26, 15 May 2014 (UTC) 1190:19:55, 14 May 2014 (UTC) 1161:19:14, 14 May 2014 (UTC) 1132:18:46, 14 May 2014 (UTC) 1110:16:48, 14 May 2014 (UTC) 1087:16:23, 14 May 2014 (UTC) 471:Christianity and Judaism 108:free sample for Kindle). 3050:2006 by Leslie Houlden 2521:someone on the internet 1791:External links modified 380:Bad article nomination? 367:18:53, 2 May 2012 (UTC) 332:23:33, 1 May 2012 (UTC) 309:23:21, 1 May 2012 (UTC) 1708:. The main article is 224:original research tags 229:origin be assumed." 42:of past discussions. 2236:sermon on a mountain 1840:regular verification 594:Interesting! Thanks 1830:After February 2018 1729:. Obvious, really. 1210:edit semi-protected 1202:please establish a 2485:wherever possible. 2431:and the storm god 2204:Christ Myth theory 2109:Christ Myth theory 2078:surrounding Jesus. 2064:This includes the 1908:Christ myth theory 1884:InternetArchiveBot 1835:InternetArchiveBot 1515:Canaanite religion 1240:Christ Myth Theory 1236:Christ Myth Theory 797:WP:Fringe theories 731:Buddhist parallels 2517:classical studies 2260:Angel of the Lord 2244:flight into Egypt 2198: 2186:comment added by 2139: 1860: 1706:Support this move 1492: 1478:comment added by 1438: 1424:comment added by 1381:Martijn Meijering 1340:Martijn Meijering 1297:Martijn Meijering 1074: 1073: 903:comment added by 855:our own reasoning 744:comment added by 698:comment added by 400:Robert Van Voorst 252:Horus Comparisons 204:original research 180: 163:comment added by 75:Pastafarian edits 72: 71: 54: 53: 48:current talk page 3076: 3069: 3064: 3058: 3045: 3039: 3026: 3020: 3010: 2912: 2858: 2719: 2221:John the Baptist 2137: 1995: 1894: 1885: 1858: 1857: 1836: 1783: 1763: 1658:move per request 1650: 1567: 1562: 1491: 1472: 1437: 1418: 1213: 1198: 1197: 1188: 1181:actually say? — 1173: 1172: 1150: 1099: 1065: 1061: 1047: 1046: 1040: 974: 969: 915: 842:Pauline Epistles 824:Also please see 756: 710: 179: 157: 68: 56: 55: 33: 32: 26: 3084: 3083: 3079: 3078: 3077: 3075: 3074: 3073: 3072: 3065: 3061: 3046: 3042: 3027: 3023: 3011: 3007: 2906: 2904: 2852: 2713: 2676: 2264:Samson's mother 2177: 2003:widely accepted 1989: 1987: 1903: 1888: 1883: 1851: 1844:have permission 1834: 1808:this simple FaQ 1793: 1788: 1779: 1757: 1662:Fuhghettaboutit 1646: 1640: 1612: 1563: 1558: 1554: 1498: 1473: 1468: 1419: 1232: 1207: 1195: 1182: 1170: 1146: 1095: 1063: 1059: 1044: 1038: 970: 965: 898: 895: 875: 857:, in any case. 847:Markan priority 739: 733: 693: 559: 520: 478:Calvin Coolidge 382: 254: 226: 158: 153: 151:Badly organised 77: 64: 30: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3082: 3080: 3071: 3070: 3059: 3040: 3021: 3004: 3003: 3002: 3001: 3000: 2999: 2998: 2988:Katolophyromai 2984:Károly Kerényi 2962: 2961: 2960: 2959: 2952: 2951: 2941:Katolophyromai 2909:Katolophyromai 2903: 2900: 2899: 2898: 2897: 2896: 2895: 2894: 2893: 2892: 2891: 2890: 2889: 2888: 2887: 2886: 2876:Katolophyromai 2855:Katolophyromai 2839: 2838: 2837: 2836: 2835: 2834: 2833: 2832: 2831: 2830: 2820:Katolophyromai 2801: 2768:Katolophyromai 2728:Katolophyromai 2680:Bart D. 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2071: 2070: 2069: 2066:Gospel of John 2062: 2061: 2060: 2057:in the gospels 2047: 2046: 2036:Katolophyromai 2020:Katolophyromai 1986: 1983: 1972:92.238.177.129 1953: 1952: 1936: 1935: 1931: 1930: 1902: 1899: 1878: 1877: 1870: 1823: 1822: 1814:Added archive 1792: 1789: 1787: 1786: 1774: 1773: 1746: 1724: 1673: 1654: 1653: 1641: 1639: 1636: 1611: 1608: 1607: 1606: 1553: 1550: 1549: 1548: 1533: 1532: 1524: 1521: 1518: 1510: 1509: 1506: 1497: 1494: 1480:Derrickchapman 1467: 1464: 1463: 1462: 1444:Parallelomania 1426:Derrickchapman 1414: 1413: 1412: 1411: 1410: 1409: 1408: 1407: 1406: 1405: 1379:its deletion. 1353: 1352: 1351: 1350: 1231: 1228: 1227: 1226: 1192: 1167: 1166: 1165: 1164: 1163: 1137: 1136: 1135: 1134: 1113: 1112: 1072: 1071: 1048: 1037: 1034: 1033: 1032: 1016: 1015: 1014: 1013: 1012: 1011: 987: 986: 985: 984: 940: 939: 894: 891: 874: 871: 870: 869: 821: 820: 819: 818: 817: 816: 812: 809: 773: 772: 732: 729: 728: 727: 675: 674: 673: 672: 671: 670: 613: 612: 611: 610: 558: 555: 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2245: 2241: 2237: 2233: 2229: 2227:, and so on). 2226: 2222: 2218: 2214: 2210: 2209: 2205: 2201: 2200: 2199: 2197: 2193: 2189: 2185: 2174: 2164: 2160: 2156: 2152: 2151:Larry Hurtado 2148: 2144: 2136: 2135: 2134: 2133: 2132: 2131: 2130: 2129: 2122: 2118: 2114: 2110: 2105: 2104: 2103: 2099: 2095: 2091: 2086: 2085: 2084: 2083: 2076: 2075: 2074: 2073: 2067: 2063: 2058: 2054: 2053: 2051: 2050: 2049: 2048: 2045: 2041: 2037: 2032: 2031: 2030: 2029: 2025: 2021: 2017: 2016:Gerald Massey 2013: 2007: 2004: 2000: 1993: 1984: 1982: 1981: 1977: 1973: 1967: 1966: 1962: 1958: 1951: 1947: 1943: 1938: 1937: 1933: 1932: 1928: 1924: 1923: 1922: 1921: 1917: 1913: 1909: 1900: 1898: 1897: 1892: 1887: 1886: 1875: 1871: 1868: 1864: 1863: 1862: 1855: 1849: 1845: 1841: 1837: 1831: 1826: 1821: 1817: 1813: 1812: 1811: 1809: 1805: 1801: 1796: 1790: 1785: 1782: 1776: 1775: 1772: 1769: 1768: 1764: 1762: 1761: 1754: 1750: 1747: 1745: 1741: 1737: 1734: 1733: 1728: 1725: 1723: 1719: 1715: 1711: 1707: 1704: 1703: 1702: 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1129: 1125: 1121: 1120:User:TechBear 1117: 1116: 1115: 1114: 1111: 1108: 1107:Contributions 1104: 1100: 1098: 1091: 1090: 1089: 1088: 1084: 1080: 1069: 1066:parameter to 1057: 1053: 1049: 1042: 1041: 1035: 1031: 1027: 1023: 1018: 1017: 1009: 1005: 1001: 997: 993: 992: 991: 990: 989: 988: 983: 979: 975: 973: 968: 962: 957: 956: 955: 951: 947: 942: 941: 938: 934: 930: 926: 922: 919:Actually per 918: 917: 916: 914: 910: 906: 902: 892: 890: 889: 885: 881: 872: 868: 864: 860: 856: 852: 848: 843: 839: 835: 831: 827: 823: 822: 813: 810: 807: 806: 805: 804: 803:that states: 802: 798: 794: 793: 792: 791: 787: 783: 777: 771: 767: 763: 759: 758: 757: 755: 751: 747: 743: 738: 730: 726: 722: 718: 713: 712: 711: 709: 705: 701: 697: 689: 688: 684: 680: 669: 665: 661: 657: 653: 652: 651: 647: 643: 639: 635: 634: 633: 629: 625: 620: 615: 614: 609: 605: 601: 597: 593: 592: 591: 587: 583: 579: 576: 575: 574: 573: 569: 565: 556: 552: 548: 544: 539: 538: 537: 536: 532: 528: 523: 517: 513: 509: 505: 501: 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1882: 1879: 1854:source check 1833: 1827: 1824: 1797: 1794: 1780: 1777: 1766: 1759: 1758: 1748: 1731: 1726: 1705: 1674: 1657: 1655: 1647: 1644: 1613: 1589: 1564: 1559: 1555: 1499: 1474:— Preceding 1469: 1420:— Preceding 1415: 1293: 1290: 1276: 1272: 1269: 1266: 1262: 1258: 1255: 1233: 1199: 1185:Technical 13 1178: 1177:What do the 1174: 1147: 1096: 1079:Marcostelias 1075: 1067: 1052:edit request 971: 966: 960: 899:— Preceding 896: 876: 826:WP:Secondary 782:Lehel Kovach 778: 774: 740:— Preceding 734: 694:— Preceding 690: 676: 618: 560: 524: 521: 486: 475: 467: 459: 440: 426: 418: 415: 412: 392: 383: 353: 263: 259: 255: 235: 231: 227: 159:— Preceding 154: 110:76.28.177.80 106: 102: 98: 94: 78: 65: 43: 37: 2970::bloodofox: 2958:mythology). 2920::bloodofox: 2915:Alan Dundes 2902:Alan Dundes 2862::bloodofox: 2787::bloodofox: 2746::bloodofox: 2700::bloodofox: 2695:classicists 2625::bloodofox: 2555::bloodofox: 2384::bloodofox: 2357::bloodofox: 2316:classicists 2188:96.37.92.31 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