1312:, for starters, "Knowledge is not a directory." I'm not sure why you care so much about this topic. I don't care too much to include or exclude, I just don't think it belongs here and once we start including, we run the risk of having to include every org under the sun. We aren't a directory, nor are we a resource guide for people. I also am not sure why Debresser would have a COI about this topic. Let's not start to play games here.
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640:
nothing wrong with having lists if their entries are relevant because they are associated with or significantly contribute to the list topic. Knowledge also includes reference tables and tabular information for quick reference. Merged groups of small articles based on a core topic are permitted. (See
Knowledge:Stand-alone lists#Appropriate topics for lists for clarification.)
1095:, also, the organization linked even clarifies that yotzim means leaving, not that people who leave religion are called yotzim, but that they chose to name their organization, Yotzim L'Shinui because of what it means, "Leaving for a change" not that the OTD in Israel are called "yotzim", as the Hebrew article is titled, they refer to themselves as Yetzieh b'she'elah .
1019:, no, the more common name in English is OTD. As all the English FB groups and support groups show, OTD is the common usage. If there is an article on the Hebrew Knowledge, we can always link to that article with whatever name they use. Also, in Israel, many English speakers use OTD, and finally they often use the term, "chozer b’she’elah" to refer to themselves.
162:
1950:-The start of the subsection "context" regarding the context of how reasons are viewed (which wasnt relocated to "post dissafiliation"), is important, as stressed by the studies. I can and will add the sources once its reinstated. Further, Margolese's point about how the insularity makes it less likely to choose a different lifestyle, is relevant.
1609:
Wouldn't that be "shmad" ? Almost sure one who leaves to another religion will not be called OTD by orthodox people unless they're unaware of his new religion. and the person themselves, would they refer to themselves as OTD if they have a new religious identity? highly doubtful. I recommend removing
750:
Same here: If it was removed for a reason, you should state it here on the talk page. According to
Knowledge:Revert only when necessary My version should be left on the page until consensus is reached. It is therefore you who are engaging in an edit war, not me. Consequently, it is also you who think
362:
We should add about Jews who went "off the Derech" throughout
History. There are many publications about that - some also focus on the "problems" these caused to the Religious communities. Take Russia for example. The problem is that it is very difficult to find valid reputable sources for this topic
1147:
I stripped all the
External Links from the resources section since it was starting to look like a directory and EL. The main section has what resources are available, I don't think we need to list all resources. We have Footsteps and Makom and then mention FB groups, as well as others are available.
829:
Revert an edit if it is not an improvement, and it cannot be immediately fixed by refinement. Consider reverting only when necessary. BRD does not encourage reverting, but recognizes that reverts will happen. When reverting, be specific about your reasons in the edit summary and use links if needed.
639:
Knowledge is not a directory... Knowledge articles are not: Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics such as (but not limited to) quotations, aphorisms, or persons (real or fictional). If you want to enter lists of quotations, put them into our sister project
Wikiquote. Of course, there is
601:
It is interesting how you believe your reverts don't need consensus, but mine do. I built out these two pages. I should be congratulated for that, not accused. Please don't engage in incitement. I am trying to keep this conversation based on substance. Please don't respond. I will not engage you any
532:
I will be reverting it. If you want to synthesize it with read also, that is fine. But removing information you simply don't like is not bold, its censorship. If you have an issue, bring it up on the talk page and wait for consensus. Otherwise, please show me your exact source which says WP is not a
2013:
The article uses the term "יציאה בשאלה" directly in the original Hebrew script; would it be possible to transliterate it for those of us who cannot read that script? Automated tools come up with "Ytzh vshlh", "yṣyʾh bšʾlh" and similar which (obviously) are missing vowels; can we have something more
952:
It is my opinion that this article is not in need of a list of examples. The fact that these people are not notable for being "off the derech" people practically means, IMHO, that such a list does not contribute anything significant to this article. For these two reasons, and in accordance with the
862:
Since you simply copied your reply from the list article, let me do the same, because my reply from there applies here as well, mutatis mutandis: ::: That exception is not applicable, because 1. there is a consensus against the edit 2. there is no consensus-version, since you created this list just
1476:
You know very well that
Knowledge is not a directory, so your claim that there is no "policy-based argument" for removal of these external links is laughable. By the way, I didn't appreciate your baseless claim as though I would have a conflict of interest on this page, and find your behavior here
823:
Bold editing is a fundamental principle of
Knowledge. No editor is more welcome to make a positive contribution than you are. When in doubt, edit! Similarly, if you advance a potential edit on the article's talk page, and no response is received after a reasonable amount of time, go ahead and make
479:
Very much disagree. This is not an endless list. These are several of the most cited books in the genre. I believe at this size, this is a fair reading list of influential works. They are all prominent. It seems the two of you like to have overly minimalist WP pages. I disagree with your approach.
1660:
calling it delusional is the definition of biased. In any case, I've deleted some references which weren't necessary, and it doesn't seem that reference to her book is overpowering any other references. The problem was that other sources were not published until recently, after this article was
1122:
The ~27000 Google hits for "yotzim" include many which are completely unrelated to our topic (e.g. "yotzim letayel") and many more which do not support the use of "yotzim" but rather "yotzim beshe'ela" or similar. Of those sites which use "yotzim" alone for what is here called OTD, they seem to
2119:
This phenomenon, often referred to in North
America as going “Off the Derech” (Off the Path, OTD).The Hebrew term Yetzia BeShe’ela, literally translated as “exiting with questions” is built as a “counter” name to “Hazara Be’Teshuvah,” used to describe non-Orthodox individuals joining Haredi
1063:, yotzim is a common word in Hebrew so you're getting tons of hits as you said. The term is used by all English speakers, not just in the US and it's not Haredi-centric, it's English centric. If someone leaves Orthodoxy in an English speaking community, they will refer to themselves as OTD.
887:
The list of notable people who became less or non-religious is IMHO indiscriminate/not relevant to the article, since that fact is not the reason these people are notable. I would understand a list of people notable for becoming less or not religious, like
Spinoza (just that he changed to
2141:
has two meaning in modern Hebrew, one traditional rabbinic/religious (meaning "repentance"), and one modern/colloquial (meaning "answer") can lend itself to some "philosophizing" and other puns on the side, but never mind. The aticle is fine as it is. We can leave it at that. Thank you,
1873:
If you're still working on this, please note that I've edited the reasons for leaving section so that it reads less like a list. More sources for each reason would be great! This list was compiled based on the Nishma study, which was all that was available at the time.
835:
Discuss the edit, and the reasons for the edit, on the article's talk page. Leave the article in the condition it was in before the Bold edit was made (often called the status quo ante), but don't engage in back-and-forth reverts because that will probably be viewed as
396:@Sir Joseph: You are at it again. Please do not wipe pages at your discretion because you decide what is and isn't worthy of being on the page. Your job is to ask for sources, not to delete. You are expected to give time for editors to find sources to material.
653:
The page you quote actually states the exact opposite of what you quote it saying. I am therefore going to revert unless you can show me the exact place where WP says there should not be a list of important literary contributions to a field on that subjects WP
1970:
added these back in, mostly in the
Orthodox views of OTD people section, a bit in the Reasons for leaving section. I tried to make all of these bits of info flow together as a sort of narrative. Go ahead and edit more if you think it's necessary!
1189:, we aren't a directory of organizations. This violates DIRECTORY and EL. Perhaps if some of those organizations have a link, it might be acceptable but you can't just revert. You don't have consensus. Knowledge isn't a resource guide.
521:
WP is a directory of significant information. Your use of directory, pulled from a page about external links, is irrelevant. You are being overly minimalist and draconian in your censorship, in contradistinction to WP's standards in
1793:
I have hidden this paragraph (terminology section) because it refers to etymology of a different wikipedia article, it should be in an English translation of that page. I'm awaiting consensus, if there is no response I will delete.
2029:
Hello. I added the tranliteration requested. But also, as I clicked the interlanguage link it turns out the the Hebrew WP does not have such a page. I also think the more commonly used expression in Hebrew is actually
1045:
gets 25,400,000 hits :( ). My concern is that "off the path" is a rather Haredi-centric view, And יציאה בשאלה (=the he.wp article this article is linked to) means "Exit question", according to translate.google,
300:
696:
says precisely what I claim it does, that you should not add indiscriminate lists of information to articles, only the really relevant items. Which is precisely the point Sir Joseph and I have been making here.
824:
your edit. Sometimes other editors are busy, or nobody is watching the article. Either the edit will get the attention of interested editors, or you will simply improve the article—either is a good outcome.
1528:“Off the Derech is a modern expression meaning one who left a traditional-Orthodox Jewish lifestyle and embraced a non-observant or less-observant one” (Green, 2017). source: Nancy Steinberg's study.
1354:
I posted a notice at the project talk page so hopefully more people will come and give an opinion one way or another. As I said, we shouldn't clutter the article up with links to external organizations.
711:
Just FTR, OTD has been here for quite some time, Lokshin Kugel has just merged some other article into it and made it a big mess and then claimed it as his own, together with the List article.
1953:-Sexual abuse in the Haredi community is not really relevant here, but sexual abuse reported by OTD people is highly relevant as it is one of the prevalent reasons listed in all the studies.
510:
WP is not a directory of books. The article already has a list of a couple of see alsos. We don't need a list of every book written by an OTD'er, especially if one of the books is fiction.
1645:
I'm trying to work out why contributors/editors have given so much weight to her book. it is at best insightful, and at worst possibly delusional. it is not academic research. anyone?
432:
I agree with Sir Joseph here. If there is one or two very notable books, we can add them to the Further reading section, but we do not need each and every publication listed here. See
2038:, "return in repentance", i.e. the original expression invented to name the phenomenon of those becoming religious. I didn't have time to check the Hebrew WP on this matter. Regards,
1378:
That is generally one of the steps in a content dispute. As I said, this isn't the IP conflict area, please don't bring your hostility into this area. As you can see from this page,
830:
Look at the article's edit history and its talk page to see if a discussion has begun. If not, you may begin one (see this list for a glossary of common abbreviations you might see).
755:
the page. As for directory, give me exact quote. I quoted where it states the list should be in place. I expect exactly the same, otherwise I do not consider your claim relevant.
560:. Furthermore, some of those books are fiction or NPOV. Don't revert, discuss. If you continue to revert without discussing, you are engaged in edit warring, and will be reported.
1552:
Victims within the Ultra-Orthodox community and their families reporting sexual abuse to authorities, are said to often be shunned and quietened by community members and leaders.
686:
Precisely: you created these two article, and now you think that gives you permission to do with them as you please, against Knowledge policies and guidelines. Please read
421:
Knowledge is not a directory. If you have a problem with being bold then report it. You should look at BRD, and I'm not at it again, I've been at it since 2005 or 2006.
294:
2096:, OK, thank you. The link is now correct. I will defer to Hebrew WP on the matter, of course, although in my informal talking about the subject I've always used
450:
As long as you have Faroneke (sp)'s book, I don't think we need other books. Other books are just autobiographies, not necessarily a scholarly read for OTD.
495:
Please add the list of books back into the article. They are all prominent and notable. It is not an endless list, but a fitting bibliography of the genre.
923:
For the record - Spinoza did not convert. He was in Cherem with Dutch Calvinists and on Catholic Church's forbidden book list for being too pantheistic --
1851:- this would show the psychology in the active decision to dissafiliate, found by sociologist and psychologist researchers, such as immigrant theory, etc
941:@Albany NY You are correct. It is a discriminate list. And it is of course relevant, since these people are examples. The exact guideline that applies is
953:
guideline mentioned above, I think the list should be removed. In addition, I will now remove all entries that are not reliably sourced, per standing
1830:- this would show results of studies that have found circumstances such as exposure to mass media, OTD siblings etc that contribute to disaffiliation
250:
It seems to me a very notable topic. It has received coverage by most major orthodox Jewish publication plus a book by this name has been published.
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903:
I think that this is not indiscriminate because it's a list of notable people who exemplify the article's subject. None of the four categories at
781:
I will be reverting unless you post an appropriate sourced reply--with exact verse-- as to why it is you who is acting appropriately and not me.
722:
Thanks for correcting me there. Apart from the first two paragraphs, the text is basically his, and he has made tens of edits these last days.
2171:
1819:
Hi. I am in the midst of compiling a few studies, based on the nature and results of the studies, I would like to make three subheadings in
571:@Lokshin kugel Oh, but if you revert against consensus and Knowledge policies and guidelines, you will be reported. No way you will try to
1208:
that is relevant, either. These links have been in the article for ages; it is not me who need consensus to re-insert them: it is you who
995:
It looks as if "Off the derech" (="off the path") is a more Haredi term? In Israel they seem to self-identify as "Yotzim" (="leaving")
670:
461:
If you mean Faranak, we had that already in the Further reading list, and why was it added a second time? So it was rightfully removed.
1364:
In other words: you don't have any policy-based argument. And then you post for help on..]?? Ok, so I have placed a similar note on ],
841:
Cycle. When the discussion has improved understanding, attempt a new edit that may be acceptable to all participants in the discussion.
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1837:- this would be much like the current list, but a FULL list, compiled from alll the studies, with references by each and every item
1844:- various ways that the researchers categorized the given reasons, e.g. intellectual, emotional, implementational; push pull; +;
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1172:
To take away the facebook-links, instagram, etc: ok. But totally unacceptable to take away the links to organisations, IMO,
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1749:
lol. no problem. thanks again for your contributions, its been awfully quiet here, then someone who does things right...
1041:
Ok, "Off the derech" get 47,100 google hits, while gets "Yotzim" gets 28,400. That doesn't mean everything, though. (
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1735:
I did! I will respond soon and will implement your comments (I'm grading student papers now, which takes precedence).
888:
Christianity, so he doesn't really fit the criteria either). I propose to remove the present list from this article.
403:
directory issues is wrong. That page specifically mentions external links. This is not a listing of external links.
105:-related articles on Knowledge. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
1148:
Once we start listing more, we then have issues with determining what to include, and of course, EL and DIRECTORY.
907:
applies here. I have added some language to clarify that these are just examples and not a comprehensive list. --
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If you continue to run through pages deleting without first asking for consensus I will be forced to report you.
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2108:. I guess it makes it more of a funny pun is simple colloquial language. Thank you, 15:50, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
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is relevant? (And Debresser states on his user-page that he is a Lubavitcher rabbi: I see a certain COI here),
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Completed merger from Ex-Haredim page. This page still needs a lot of work. Please help edit and expand.
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you're very welcome. have you noticed the other topics I mentioned you in? important re your edits.
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Is this not a more accurate description? it will also possibly help to shorten the whole section...
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Please add the list of books back in, whether as its own section or in the further reading section.
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there is a lot of information that doesn't flow so well. it's sourced, but it should read better.
1892:
I understand. How about a table with a full list? perhaps a collapsible which is default hidden?
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1269:, because Knowledge isn't a directory or resource guide. I answered that quite a few times, and
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on 12/29/2015. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see
1774:
Hi, If possible please review two new pieces I added to the lead section. Edit if needed for .
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I am currently working on this, and expect fellow editors to react asap to avoid conflict.
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Ah well, I guess this goes to a RfC, unless you can come up with better arguments than
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https://he.wikipedia.org/%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%90%D7%94_%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%94
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1236:, This isn't the IP conflict, please don't try to bring hostility into this area.
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is the proper place to post a notice, not help, so please don't cast aspersions.
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Fantastic job! I love the new look , and it reads so much better. thank you for
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is correct, Knowledge is not a directory. There's no need to include the links.
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generally be related to a single organization - Hillel (seemingly unrelated to
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Thank you for the transliteration. The link is correct, and the format is per
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argument (based on policies) which tells us to remove what you just removed?
2104:, because it emphasizes the contrarian direction of the original expression
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According to this, the page should be left in the status quo ante. Period.
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created. Now that there are more sources, it's great that they were added.
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Absolutely not. This article references a significant sociological shift.
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I have removed the list and replaced it with books and movies about OTD.
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is wrong. It says nowhere on that page that WP is not for lists. It says:
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Sure. You would need a source though. The source in this article says;
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Could you please answer my argument, or rather, could you please give
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Perhaps we can move it to legal Battles (in "communities response")
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It has nothing to do with censorship. Knowledge is not a directory.
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https://www.jpost.com/Arts-and-Culture/Books/Where-did-it-go-wrong
329:
This article should belong in Urban Dictionary, not on Knowledge.
1943:-the term "At risk" must be mentioned somewhere (perhaps in the
579:, because I see from your edit history and behavior here and at
1704:
Oh wow, that's... fascinating. Thanks for sharing the review.
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1127:?) - which indicates that "yotzim" is not mainstream usage.
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obviously isn't relevant. And I cannot see anything in
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I just made a passing comment. The fact that the word
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I have now edited it to link directly to hebrew page.
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and it has a redirect from chozer b'she'elah as well.
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2034:, "return in question," which the direct opposite of
1679:
I'm (mentally, now visibly) referencing this article
945:, which means that a source needs to be provided and
101:, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
2057:. Here is the external link to the hebrew article
1001:Should we perhaps move this article to "Yotzim"?
254:has a good point that the article must be NPOV.
1937:cleaning it up. Thanks for the beautiful table.
1605:converting to other religions not called OTD.
583:that you seems much too personally involved.
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1947:), along with the discussion re its meaning.
1340:point you found relevant for this article?
399:Your deletion of the list of books as per
187:; for the discussion at that location, see
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1789:etymology of יציאה בשאלה up for deletion
1078:Never heard of "yotzim" in this context.
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1989:umm... See my edit re orthodox views.
1332:of them relevant to this case. Since
575:this article. And please also review
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1030:https://he.wikipedia.org/יציאה_בשאלה
581:List of notable former Orthodox Jews
95:This article is within the scope of
38:It is of interest to the following
1821:Off the derech#reasons_for_leaving
1812:Proposal for Major changes in the
1028:Never mind, it is already linked.
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2014:readable for English speakers? —
1336:removed the info: I want to know
1200:Well, it wasn't listed as EL; so
2009:Transliteration of "יציאה בשאלה"
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2177:Mid-importance Judaism articles
1849:Psychology in decision to leave
202:Should be deleted. Not neutral.
135:This article has been rated as
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1610:"other religions" from intro.
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1477:altogether rather disruptive.
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416:21:09, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
387:21:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
353:21:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
241:21:50, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
115:Knowledge:WikiProject Judaism
109:and see a list of open tasks.
2172:Start-Class Judaism articles
1940:I disagree with a few edits.
377:I will link some wiki pages
118:Template:WikiProject Judaism
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1586:list of reasons for leaving
1565:10:01, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
1538:22:30, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
1291:, please point out what in
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917:17:52, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
898:15:49, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
817:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle
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2133:11:54, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
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2071:13:37, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
2045:18:37, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
2024:09:57, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
690:that this is not the case.
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339:22:47, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
141:project's importance scale
1690:I understand your point.
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883:Lis of notable people
552:for starters, and as
167:The contents of the
1814:§reasons for leaving
1683:which questions her
1125:Hillel International
602:more on ad hominems.
533:directory of books.
98:WikiProject Judaism
2106:chazarah biteshuva
2098:chazarah besheelah
807:Same applies here:
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363:in general.
295:free images
184:its history
30:Start-class
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943:WP:LISTBIO
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246:Notability
211:Pualsonese
173:page were
170:Ex-Haredim
2016:The Anome
1935:WP:BOLDLY
1479:Debresser
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1570:removed
1457:Ibn Daud
1277:agrees.
1104:Indeed.
957:policy.
949:applies.
671:contribs
659:unsigned
365:Caseeart
219:contribs
207:unsigned
198:Deletion
2120:groups.
1956:Thanks
358:History
301:WP refs
289:scholar
139:on the
112:Judaism
103:Judaism
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273:Google
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316:JSTOR
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