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implications of these findings. One problem of these findings is their contradiction when claiming that the Jews are at the same time genetically “closer” to the Turks and to the Arabs. Another consists of the kind of assumptions upon which the research questions were formulated and the samples were selected. First, we do no have for sure any genetic material or DNA from the
Biblical Israelites to compare and contrast with any existing genetic material or DNA from contemporary Jews. There is no proof that Michael Hammer’s “cohanim markers” were those of Moses’ brother, Aaron. Second, the Jews (like the Muslims and the Christians) were historically bound by religion (and are highly mixed), not by race or genes. Today the percentage of U.S. Jews under 35 who are married to non-Jews is 41 percent (Goodstein 2003). ... Fourth, since the bulk of contemporary Jews came recently from the only region of the world in which there was indeed a geographically delimited and historically documented Jewish empire, the selection of research population samples should relate primarily (if not exclusively) to the historical geography of the medieval Jewish-led Khazar Empire and the modern Jewish Pale of Settlement (see Figure 5). The Turkic origin and mass conversion of the Khazars to Judaism are well documented by both medieval and modern scholars (Ibn al-Faqih and Hadi 1996, 593; Ibn Fadlan and Ghaybah 1994; Halévy 1935 and 1936; Ibn Khaldun 1982, 129; Spector 1968, 5; Bradley 1992; Dunlop 1954, ix, x). Fifth, some of the assumptions used by geneticists are themselves based on even weaker assumptions such as “A Middle Eastern origin of the Jewish gene pool is generally assumed because of the detailed documentation of Jewish history and religion” (Hammer et al 2000, 6773).
2083:"Early studies of mitochondrial DNA reported that Jewish women, unlike Jewish men, did not correlate well with one another globally. ... In the absence of rabbis to perform conversions, they married local women who, while consenting to live as Jews, were not halakhically Jewish." Which presents a large problem for Zionist mythology as the definition of "who is a Jew" supposedly (if viewed from a false "racial" prism is view in "Orthodox Judaism" as being only from the mother (aka matrilineal) so if all the "Jewish women" are CONVERTS whatever the father's background is doesn't matter at all (by Zionist mythology's own claims).
2179:"chasteroue" has been shown to also be the now blocked (as well) user "dionysuselysses". The Palestinians are confirmed by even Israeli academics and genetic researchers like Dr. Ariella Oppenheim to be descended from the indigenous people of the land. Regarding the Palestinian Arabs of today, Dr. Ariella Oppenheim's professional genetic research noted; "The results match historical accounts that some Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai. They were descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times."
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1409:(of the English wording, usage & grammar), not with point of view. A review of the editing history will show that much of the original text was almost unintelligible, and much work had to be done to "translate" it into proper English while trying to preserve the original intent. This involved some guesswork and "mindreading". There is more work to be done.
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2138:): I don't think PLO view has a place in the lead, since the article is about historical phenomenon, not now-day politics. PLO view of this historical phenomenon is not of significant importance to no one but PLO itself. I'd bet this information is also not found in any RS on the article subject, in particular
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Also on this general issue; "Because a detailed technical critique of these genetic findings requires a detailed scrutiny of parameters such as sample size, genetic markers, and population allele, let’s make a broad epistemological critique of the sample selection, research assumptions, and political
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Also
Professor Shlomo Sand notes; "As of today, no study based on anonymous DNA samples has succeeded in identifying a genetic marker specific to Jews, and it is not likely that any study ever will. It is a bitter irony to see the descendants of Holocaust survivors set out to find a biological Jewish
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The vast majority of the settlers were wiped out by the
Crusaders who arrived in 1219, and the few survivors were allowed to live only in Acre (עַכּוֹ, Akko). descendents of them aren't known, indicating that if there were any survivors, they blended with the original Jewish residents, who are called
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For the 400 years of
Ottoman rule in Jerusalem there was a Jewish community living inside the walls of the Old City. The community, which we call the “Old Yishuv,” was not a single, cohesive unit. Until the middle of the 19th century the community consisted mainly of Sephardic Jews, descendants of
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Other issues on "Jewish genetics" (putting aside that unless one is a neo-Nazi who believes Jews are a "race" or something, rather than just a religion, as it is easily demonstrable that the first person to claim the Jews were a "race" and not simply a religion was Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party in
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That's clear that the
Mustarabim survived, the only question is "how?". One possible answer is that there were quite enough of them so even if many were killed there were more candidates for survival, a maybe more likely answer is that since the Mustarabim used to live in villages like the Bedouins,
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Their reasoning is that the signature, a set of DNA variations known as R1a1, is common in the region north of
Georgia that was once occupied by the Khazar kingdom. The signature did reach the Near East, probably before the founding of the Jewish community, but it is still rare there. The scholars
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In addition, eretz israel in religious terms was of difficult definition topologically. Indeed as a sacred space it had no agreed on topological boundaries. One solution ignored is to write 'Palestine Eretz Israel' as in 'Old Yishuv: Palestine Eretz Israel's Jewish
Community before 1882'. Judith
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The 'Land of Israel' is a relatively unfamiliar infra-Jewish term (eretz yisrael') accommodated to occasional usage in
English, as opposed to the standard historical term in Western languages, Palestine. The two are not on par for a global encyclopedia where the default term is based on English
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Additional legitimate questions could also be raised about the ethnic identity, personal motivation, and political dedication of the various genetic research teams, especially the way they wrap their research projects and published findings into broad human genetic studies while they seem to be
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Someone here is in the mood of practical jokes, and wrongly found the
Knowledge (XXG) and especially this article which I created, as a the appropriate place. For example, what's the tag here about citation in time when there is even a link to a book in English which is available online through
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The way I see it is this. If you talk about the "Yishuv HaYashan" everybody knows exactly what you're talking about, and there is no need to explain where that existed. But "Old Yishuv", I think those who have never heard it, might ask "the old yishuv of where?"; it might mean the old yishuv in
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At the time, there was no real
Palestinian nationalism and the area West of Jordan River was not seen as an entity but rather as port of the Syria area. Nevertheless, adding "(Palestine)" permits the readers to understand in using the alternative wording used by scholar less specialized on the
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As a person who often gets kicked by both angry Israelis and Palestinians i would like to point out that the source utilized for the "location" in lead section says only Ottoman Jerusalem, not mentioned neither Palestine nor Land of Israel. I'm in favor of using both terms if sourced, but my
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identity: Hitler would certainly have been very pleased! And it is all the more repulsive that this kind of research should be conducted in a state that has waged for years a declared policy of 'Judaization of the country' in which even today a Jew is not allowed to marry a non-Jew."
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If the PLO view is going to be added then quotes of PLO members claiming "Jews and Muslims lived peacefully together before Zionism" should be included followed by a list of all the massacres carried out upon the indigenous Jewish population by the settling Muslims.
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strengthens the Zionist version of events for both Ashekanzim and Sephardim. The ONLY version of events it poses a problem for are the so-called "Palestinians" and their dual lies of being indigenous and Jews and Muslims living peacefully together before Zionism.
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narrative usage, and for all periods, Palestine should be the default term, which can then be finessed if sources so say, by indicating the temporal term used by the reigning hegemon at any particular juncture.Throughout the 19th century (viz.George Robinson,
2091:"Third, so far genetic research on the Semitic claim tends to focus more on the non-recombining parts of the male Y-Chromosome rather than on the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA of the Jews, which has defined 'Jewishness' since Talmudic times."
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This has been discussed many times and several good replies have been given here too. There is nothing POV with saying "Palestine", a term used by the vast majority of scholars (including many Israeli scholars) and defined in a clear way.
2243:"The Old Yishuv (Hebrew: היישוב הישן‎, ha-Yishuv ha-Yashan) is a term used to refer to the Jewish communities, with specific economic and social structure, which had lived in Ottoman Southern Syria (Eretz Yisrael), from 16th century "
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You're right about the sources; but I don't understand; the letter is from Rabbi Zvi Hirsh Kalisher; and the Greiditzer is the one who dropped support of Rabbi Kalisher? I'm interested in what exactly does the letter say.
2076:). "Jews were found to be more closely related to groups in the north of the Fertile Crescent (Kurds, Turks, and Armenians) than to their Arab neighbors." The Khazars were in the exact region where Armenia is in the
2473:, since Syria had none of the religious resonance of Palestine, the secular term for their 'Holy Land'. Eretz Israel (Land of Israel)is the Jewish version of 'Holy Land' and we should use neither religious term per
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The name of this article needs to be changed to "Old Yishuv," which is the term used in all scholarly literature on the subject. As it is, it is meaningless - and grammatically incorrect (it is Hayishuv Hayashan in
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I don't believe this is entirely the point. Palestinian Arabs must be descended from someone, and the candidates you mention are as likely as any. The central issue is the widespread belief that Arabs are the
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The Old Yishuv does not refer to a geographical place, but a community. So it did not "consist" of cities. The way someone has now rephrased the lead is misleading, and the English sounds more like Yinglish.--
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Winther, 'The Hebrew Revolution and the Revolution of the Hebrew Language between the 1880s and the 1930s' in Egon Keck, Svend Søndergaard, Ellen Wulff (eds.) Museum Tusculanum Press, 1990 pp.397-406 p.404.
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Thanks for support, however i'm still concerned that some Jews (especially religious, like Chesdovi) might view this solution incorrect, since the definition of Old Yishuv was based on residence in the
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According to the intro., the "Old Yishuv" (pre-1897) is pre-state. But isn't the "New Yishuv" (post-1897) also pre-state (for another 50 years)? What distinguishes them? If "Old Yishuv" refers to
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The Kalscher is complaining on the discontinued support, and writes on himself that he remanined single in the battle. He claims that the Greiditzer discontinued the support only because Rabbi
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struggled very hard on arrival in Eretz Yisroel; as they had no financial support and no prospect of making a living. The vast majority of these and earlier residents were wiped out by the
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say they cannot exclude the possibility that a Jewish founder brought the signature on his Y chromosome to the Ashkenazi population, but they consider that a less likely explanation."
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Thanks for this information. I never knew that the Greiditzer took back his support. BTW, it might be appropriate to note that the Greiditzer was one of the greatest talmidim of Rabbi
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The plans of Rabbi Zvi Hirsh Kalischer of Thorn were very controversial, and even his colleague and biggest supporter Rabbi Eliyah Gutmacher of Greiditz later discontinued his support.
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The reason I added Eretz Yisrael is that the page move for Old Yishuv on its own didn't work. I don't know why. The only other article with that word in it is just plain "Yishuv"--
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2216:. If this is the official PLO view (and it's certainly the view of large numbers of US academics) but has no historical basis, the logical action is to mention both the belief
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The source in the lead says "Ottoman rule in Jerusalem" but I think you know there are plenty of sources that call it "Palestine" as it is the standard term for the area. --
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Maybe this will suffer vandalism, but doesn't every article about Israel that doesn't reflect an anti-Israel/anti-Jewish stance? That's the way the world is, unfortunately.
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in 1897 for the purpose of renewing a Jewish State, eighteen centuries after the previous one had been destroyed. The newer arrivals and their settlements are known as the
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The politicization of the term "Palestine", which has lead to it being replaced here by the unscientific and broad term "Southern Syria", is both tragic and fun to see. --
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The Khazar theory has not been supposedly "refuted" as even Jewish academic and genetic research Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor himself admits.
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No! The source from HaLevenaon is that it was contreversial. The source for discontinued support is the Letter by the Kalscer to the Greditzer, please follow sources!.
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was against, and that it is not right because Eretz Yisroel doesn't belong solely to the existing Rabbanim of Eretz Yisroel, but to the Jews of Diapora as well.
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they were away from the eyes and not targeted for execution. The newcommers - in contrary - were concetrated in big municipalities as the introduction reads.
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2445:. Personnaly, given the "blurring" around both limits of these entities, I would be unable to state the difference. So we have to take temporal references.
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As for "Jewish genetics" (putting aside that Jews are not a "race" but rather a religion". Many points can be made; on Khazars it has been documented that
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Old Yishuv is not English and not Hebrew, "Yishuv haYashan" is the correct name, "ha" in the hebrew means "the" which is not supported in English titles.
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The Old Yishuv is hence something to emerge since the early Ottoman period. It is however mostly documented in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
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the exiles from Spain and others. Beginning with the mid-18th century Ashkenazi Jews begin to settle in the city, but not for extended periods.
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What about those who arrived prior to 1897 for the purpose of renewing a Jewish State? Are they from the old Yishuv or the new? Also what about
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that Palestinians "descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai."
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120227184802/http://www.jewishhistory.com/jh.php?id=AdditionalReadings&content=content%2Fsegal_ch17
1497:, I have forgotten the exact meaning in Arabic. Somebody makes practical jokes on my account, but forgets to admit when he is wrong.
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Shoteh, are you convinced by google book hits and both Gilabrand and my arguments ? Or do you have some other points to put forward ?
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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1837 and hundreds of other titles), all ethnographic and geographical writers separated the two (for emotive reasons as Christians
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How funny it sounds, this was how they were called, please follow the references. The word is said to have been derived from
1991:) that Petah Tikva is considered the first proper Zionist settlement; maybe in retrospect. It needs to be straightened out.
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707:-related articles on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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Palestinians have been proven to be indigenous even by Israeli geneticists and academics like Dr. Ariella Oppenheim;
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I think Syrian Provinces is a good choice because at thetime (Ottoman period), it was the way the area was defined.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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The existence of the Old Yishuv sure poses some problems for the Ashkenazi Khazars and their version of events.
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Yishuv Hayashan is Heblish. It's either Hayishuv Hayashan (see Hebrew Knowledge (XXG) article )or Old Yishuv. --
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More, Eretz Yisrael and Old Yishuv are different matters. 1st is a territory; 2nd is a people's community...
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I corrected the lead per source, without mentioning exact onsetm but saying throughout the Ottoman period.
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On the other hand; there were those born in the old Yishuv, who were for the renewal of a Jewish State.
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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2620:. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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There is no need to disambiguate by Eretz Yisrael, as if it would be that one and not the "other one".
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https://web.archive.org/web/20080410122008/http://www.jafgifts.com/esrog/Pri_Etz_Hadar_Jerusalem.pdf
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before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template
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https://web.archive.org/web/20081013142810/http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/places/acco.html
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The answer is, that we are speaking in generalities; but still the lead needs to reflect this.
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I think that the way Gilabrand put it now is just good, it may also relax the intentions of :::
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First, DNA testing has ALREADY proven the Khazar theory false. Second, the existence of the
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This is incorrect definition as the term Old Yishuv has nothing to do with 16th century.
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Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran
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the New Yishuv? Expert help needed to make the lead paragraph less confusing.
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Users are welcome to participate in discussion on renaming and merging of
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What I don't understand is the last sentence. Did the Crusaders spare the
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is what will remain, and I don't mind it staying although I would prefer
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As usual, "Palestine" gets replaced and right now I removed one of the
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If that's the case then I'll revert my edit regarding this; thanks.
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which refers to the Jewish Yishuv in Eastern Europe before WWII. So
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southern Syrian provinces (Palestine) throughout the Ottoman period
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Does anyone know what the Greiditzer as he was called writes him?
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To handle this properly, we must ask a sysop to take care of this.
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This is noted at "The Non-Semitic Origins of Contemporary Jews"
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I would remove "(Eretz Yisrael)" that doesn't bring anything...
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what they happened to be called; or is this a practical joke?
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in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
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This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the
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Weren't all the Jews expelled from Palestine in the year 70?
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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http://www.jafgifts.com/esrog/Pri_Etz_Hadar_Jerusalem.pdf
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Google Books? Does his articles have so good references?
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There is no reference for this. Sounds like a joke to me—
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What I mean is that there are no several "old yishuv"'s.
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Articles needing translation from Hebrew Knowledge (XXG)
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impression is that sources is not the real issue here.
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Mustarabim or Maghrebim, but more precisely Murishkes.
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http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/places/acco.html
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Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
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2676:using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
1702:The paragraph after a few edits of mine now reads:
1390:supporter and he would like everything on his way.
1324:London or the old yishuv in Brownsville or the the
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Why Eretz Yisrael ? Old Yishuv has no link with it.
2378:From my point of view, referring to the area as :
1814:pre-state Jewish community, as is stated, does it
2763:C-Class articles with conflicting quality ratings
1459:The whole article sounds like a practical joke.--
1405:The problem - as explained in the tags - is with
1346:as a noun doesn't really refer to anywhere else.
2823:High-importance Jewish history-related articles
2154:And I see the PLO view has been deleted again:
1833:The more acurate label should be "pre-Zionist"
1476:It's our job to make it into a normal article.
565:Knowledge (XXG) requested photographs in Israel
2662:This message was posted before February 2018.
2579:arguments, which is clearly not helpful here.
2345:Well, just one correction on Zero's revert -
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550:Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
101:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Former countries
1191:I have just tried. Indeed, it doens't work.
1864:The lead isn't perfect yet; it now reads:
1587:A source is given as HaLevanon 8 – no 21
1032:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Jewish culture
980:
859:
822:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Jewish history
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480:Israel articles missing geocoordinate data
364:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration
325:Unknown-importance Israel-related articles
305:Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
259:
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2838:Low-importance Palestine-related articles
2612:I have just modified 3 external links on
2417:, even though there is some correlation.
925:on Knowledge (XXG). Join us by visiting
535:Knowledge (XXG) requested maps in Israel
2818:B-Class Jewish history-related articles
2798:High-importance Israel-related articles
1987:, hardly a Zionist. But I see that (in
1149:Old Yishuv is the most know expression.
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2111:focused mainly on the Semitic claim."
943:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Palestine
929:, where you can add your name to the
104:Template:WikiProject Former countries
7:
2735:From "Palestine" to "Southern Syria"
1012:This article is within the scope of
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717:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Judaism
394:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel
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1275:What do you mean by 'no link'? --
319:Unassessed Israel-related articles
226:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Israel
123:project-independent quality rating
14:
2616:. Please take a moment to review
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2467:Travels in Palestine and Syria,
2304:1517 events in Hebron and Safed
2080:just south of Russia. And also
1052:This article has been rated as
963:This article has been rated as
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828:Jewish history-related articles
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530:Module:Location map/data/Israel
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2843:WikiProject Palestine articles
2357:) for the last 2 years almost.
2204:people of Palestine, and that
1429:The article reads as follows:
946:Template:WikiProject Palestine
477:Add geographic coordinates to
391:Participate in discussions at
38:It is of interest to multiple
1:
2318:Talk:1517 Safed pogrom#Rename
2298:20:09, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
2284:20:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
2256:14:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
1983:, as it was founded by Rabbi
1922:and those arriving after the
1709:of 300 members headed by the
1334:makes things simpler. But if
1026:and see a list of open tasks.
816:and see a list of open tasks.
711:and see a list of open tasks.
220:and see a list of open tasks.
139:This article is supported by
2233:12:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
2176:09:29, 20, March 2012 (UTC)
2164:13:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
2149:10:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
720:Template:WikiProject Judaism
562:Add pictures to articles in
88:WikiProject Former countries
2803:WikiProject Israel articles
2413:, which is not the same as
2239:The defintion of Old Yishuv
2140:Google books search results
1847:That explains it. Thanks.
1252:Good. Except I don't agree.
449:Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu
229:Template:WikiProject Israel
2869:
2693:(last update: 5 June 2024)
2609:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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2132:Regarding this two edits (
1979:to what is considered the
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1058:project's importance scale
1015:WikiProject Jewish culture
969:project's importance scale
949:Palestine-related articles
848:project's importance scale
805:WikiProject Jewish history
743:project's importance scale
532:. Add maps to articles in
413:Diamond industry in Israel
252:project's importance scale
142:WikiProject Ottoman Empire
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2072:Germany, see also Rabbi
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1156:(600+ google book hits).
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2128:PLO view in the lead
1985:Yehoshua Leib Diskin
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2664:After February 2018
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1977:Petah Tikva
1971:Petah Tikva
1928:New Yishuv.
1916:Petah Tikva
1835:HagiMalachi
1778:HagiMalachi
1685:HagiMalachi
1644:HagiMalachi
1606:HagiMalachi
1499:HagiMalachi
1392:HagiMalachi
1222:HagiMalachi
1121:HagiMalachi
935:discussions
356:Collaborate
2757:Categories
2725:Report bug
2614:Old Yishuv
2225:Chrismorey
2202:indigenous
2174:ChasteRoue
2026:Old Yishuv
1898:", namely
1884:Old Yishuv
1880:יישוב הישן
1758:Mustarabim
1743:Mustarabim
1661:Akiva Eger
1344:old yishuv
1336:Old Yishuv
1327:alter heim
1196:Old Yishuv
1080:Hebrew).--
625:Guy Oseary
417:Edna Arbel
2708:this tool
2701:this tool
2583:GreyShark
2541:GreyShark
2496:Nishidani
2479:Nishidani
2452:Pluto2012
2421:GreyShark
2396:Pluto2012
2361:GreyShark
2324:GreyShark
2261:See this
2210:colonists
1900:Jerusalem
1892:Holy Land
1872:haYashan'
1849:Hertz1888
1820:Hertz1888
1751:Murishkes
1747:Maghrebim
1737:(עַכּוֹ,
1727:Crusaders
1711:Tosafists
1461:Gilabrand
1440:Murishkes
1411:Hertz1888
1366:Gilabrand
1179:Gilabrand
1137:Gilabrand
1082:Gilabrand
940:Palestine
915:Palestine
871:Palestine
621:Guy Bavli
460:See also
316:Rate the
2741:IRISZOOM
2714:Cheers.—
2563:IRISZOOM
2523:IRISZOOM
2341:Location
2248:Tritomex
2078:Caucasus
1989:Halutzim
1908:Tiberias
1525:Redaktor
1521:murashke
1277:Redaktor
1154:scholars
921:and the
506:Maintain
373:Copyedit
2618:my edit
2475:WP:NPOV
1914:, plus
1888:Zionist
1816:include
1715:England
1551:Mashriq
1407:quality
1388:Zionist
1299:Ceedjee
1259:Ceedjee
1208:Ceedjee
1163:Ceedjee
1115:Search
1056:on the
967:on the
846:on the
741:on the
714:Judaism
705:Judaism
661:Judaism
489:Infobox
334:Cleanup
277:history
250:on the
68:C‑class
30:B-class
1912:Hebron
1876:Hebrew
1870:Yishuv
1719:France
1707:aliyah
1555:Shoteh
1233:Shoteh
1117:Google
1100:Shoteh
623:, and
591:Update
403:Expand
311:Assess
223:Israel
214:Israel
170:Israel
36:scale.
2590:dibra
2577:WP:CK
2548:dibra
2515:edits
2441:than
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2368:dibra
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1942:Itzse
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1478:Itzse
1444:Itzse
1348:Itzse
603:Other
574:Stubs
557:Photo
287:purge
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