2077:. I got involved in this controversy because I questioned whether a single blog post was enough to support the dubious proposition. It clearly was not, but there was a desperate attempt to find any source to save the inclusion of the "common name." As I have explained my thoughts in detail above, I will only conclude that the attempts to provide some respectable cover for this "fact" shows how flimsy the information is. I will finally say that even if there was a gold-plated authority to prove that someone, a few, several (what is being asserted here?) decided to attach an offensive nickname to the statute, how is that piece of information of encyclopedic value? I find it ironic that as editors are now business scouring existing articles to remove supposedly non-notable figures (such as symphony conductors) or enforce their narrow of view of the policy against exccessive detail (by their own lights by the way), there is a dedicated contingent that wants to salvage this bit of folk nonsense. For what? To increase Knowledge (XXG) usage by middle school boys? All of the Wiki policies waived to support retention are beside the point. Bureaucratic policies cannot determine what is of encyclopedic nature. But I guess we are far beyond deciding what is useful knowledge in Knowledge (XXG), the source for all things Video Game related and (as here) troll-worthy but much less effort paid to content of important historical and cultural items.
994:. I would also like to see the page. It is surprising to me that a claim originally sourced with an unreliable source has somehow magically gotten a "legitimate" source. I am wondering why that was not used in the first place, if it in fact says what it is now claimed to. BTW, that the "locals" call a statue something seems hardly important to me. Unless of course we start including what "locals" have to say about Trump Tower, I don't see it the place of Knowledge (XXG) to have it in any event. The fact that there is an edit war gong on right now about this shows that there is some agenda behind keeping the slurs.
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Wilde was homosexual and that he was imprisoned for it. What is tongue in cheek about calling him a "queer" and a "fag"? I would also be curious if a linguist actually opined that in Dublin those terms are not "slurs". Second, even if the book says it, how could a linguist make such a claim? Did he interview the populace? Does he cite other authority? And even if there were testimony that it was not intended as a slur (for example, by people saying "some of my best friends are fags"), how can that be asserted as authoritative in an encyclopedic (supposedly) work?
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Smith the art historian at
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As someone who has lived in Dublin since before the Oscar Wilde statue was unveiled, I have never heard anyone refer to it as the 'Fag on the crag' or the 'Queer with the leer', both nicknames sound like they were made up by students who hung around the university debating society too much. The 'Quare on the square' at least sounds like a native dubliner would say it (Quare -: -->
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curation, one person can simply assert that something says something and everyone else, no matter how many, who can see that it does not are left only with an edit war as as remedy. And unless it matters in some deeply personal way, most people give up and just chalk it up to "Forget it, Jake. It's
Knowledge (XXG)." Surely, at this point it ought to be obvious that there
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2374:, as we have reliable sources. The current position and wording are good. I could see genericizing it to say "the statue has been given nicknames by locals" or something to that effect, but ot seems in the local/regional context, the nicknames themselves are relevant. To me, it's not about mocking the statue(s), but documenting how they are perceived/treated. =
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even if it were true, why does
Knowledge (XXG) consider it a matter of encyclopedic interest to repeat the slurs? Nor does it solve the problem that some newspaper conjectures that Wilde would have been amused by them. How could that possibly be known, and why would a newspaper writer have enough knowledge of Wilde to be able to venture an opinion like this?
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vernacular nicknames, some more clever than others, all of which are irrelevant to the content, subject, and historical importance of the actual sculptures. With all due respect, if you are correct in your assessment that there is a "precidence (sic) of sculptures having nicknames in their articles", why not start a new article on that?
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a copy of this 270 pg book from Amazon for $ 180. Google will sell you access to the ebook for $ 144. I really think it is the burden of someone claiming this book as authority to give us a quotation of what is cited since evidently this is not the kind of source that is generally available to scholars.
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The trouble with these silly nicknames is that they are thought up by pub bores after the statue is unveiled, and even enter their into dubious sources, but most of them never enter common usage. I am quite amused by other editors scouring the internet for more sources as if that will prove anything.
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I have tried to track down a copy of the
Raymond Hickey book. According to WorldCat the closest physical copy to NYC is 1700 mies away. In other words a copy is not held by the New York Public Library, The Library of Congress, Boston Public Library, Princeton, Columbia, Yale or Harvard. One can order
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I think the problem that AntroMimus has is not with the nicknames themselves, but that the source that says that the nicknames weren't supposed to be offensive is not a reputable source. It is in fact a singular person's blog. The other source is more reputable, but does not say they weren't designed
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I thought personal blogs were not considered "encyclopedic" enough for
Knowledge (XXG). And yet one is used to source the claim that nicknames calling Oscar Wilde (who had been imprisoned under Britain's offensive anti-gay laws) were not "designed" to be offensive. How can the blogger know this? And
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subscription to read it, on the basis that "sourcing is more than adequate" and "sourcing is more than sufficient" and because it's a tabloid. It's not clear, from the freely visible part, how this supports the claim. But if one or more of the nicknames now also needs to be removed, I'd be grateful
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As the article now stands the "nicknames" section has this sentence. "The statue, in keeping with other statues in Dublin, was given the nicknames ..." What does that mean? Was there an official contest? Or is it the habit of
Dubliners to have offensive names for things? There is no source for this
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Two other points about this sentence. Having read what I could from the preview at Google Books, it doesn't sound like the book would opine on whether the phrases were "tongue in cheek" or whether they are meant as "slurs" in this context. What does it mean to be tongue in cheek? We know that Oscar
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I am not here to argue, but rather to respond to a request to weigh in with my opinion. If we were to include the nicknames for all the public sculptures in NYC, then there would be the "turd in the plaza", "the pissing wall", "the beggar" "that ugly thing in the traffic triangle" and other absurd
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I thought this complaint might happen, which is why I felt I had to write a disclaimer into the article clarifying they are not malicious names. It's the same way that
Dubliners have nicknamed other statues "The floozy in the jaccuzzi" and the "tart with the cart". They are jocular Irish nicknames
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The Smith quote and citation has been completely removed from the article, on the grounds that it was written by a non-notable writer in a non-notable journal. Firstly, there are several art historians named Sarah Smith, so it needs to be checked which one wrote the original essay. If it is Sarah
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With the removal of the nicknames per the above RFC, the article now ends awkwardly with a reference to nicknames that have not previously been mentioned and are not further explained. Would it be preferable to remove mention of them altogether and end the final quote with “... coalesce with our
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The sourcing is more than adequate for this point; I'd support trimming back the citations listed. The Smith article alone would be sufficient, and the Smith quote preceding the sentence wouldn't make sense to the reader if the nicknames weren't listed. Whether one considers the nickname to be
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That's on page 143 (which is available on GBooks) and doesn't support the text it's supposed to ("the nicknames were not designed as slurs against homosexuals"). The new source says the complete opposite. Reference to the nicknames is embedded in a discussion of how the statue is a problematic
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The trouble with these nicknames is that the local wags think them up when the statue is unveiled, and you can even find 'dubious' references for them, but as someone who lives in Dublin I can tell that they are not in common usage. That, of course, is impossible to prove but it is the truth.
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It is very troubling to me how cavalierly citations are used on
Knowledge (XXG). It's probably the chief reason that Knowledge (XXG) cannot be relied on. And since there is no editorial apparatus, there is no reliable cite checking. Because of the anarchic nature of the "content" creation and
2779:, Smith is the highest quality and most in-depth source we have on the sculpture, so it's appropriate to devote a large portion of the article to it. It might be an idea to reduce the length of the direct quotes by incorporating more into the text, but I agree it shouldn't just be removed. –
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to be offensive, just that Irish people would tell you "what are you going to do about it." I am sympathetic to the fact that you did not intend to be offensive/off color, but I think it's still a fair point to bring up that a claim made in the article is not backed up by a reputable source.
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Nicknames are not relevant to the long-term encyclopedic record. What IS relevant is the sculpture itself, who it commemorates and their historical significance, the artist who produced it, and where it is located. Nicknames are simply tabloid fodder and do not belong in an encyclopedia.
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Aside of the fact that there are a number of non-tabloid RSs used in the article to support it? Furthermore, as has already been mentioned above we do have precidence of statues having their nicknames in their articles. Please state a policy based reason why it should not be included.
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It proves nothing! An out of date book using out of date nicknames. The statue of Queen
Victoria that once stood outside Leinster House, now in Sydney, was "nicknamed" the "Auld Bitch". I can get a reference for this. Shall I include it in her article?
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Yes, obviously. It's unclear why it was removed. The active editors in a WikiProject are the only ones who should be deciding if a topic is no longer of interest to them, and there is clearly a strong LGBT connection to the subject matter
1088:"It has become common practice in Dublin for any new building or structure in the public eye to be given a sassy name almost immediately. Somehow or other the local population comes to agree on the label to be used." I have also discovered
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depiction of gay identity in a culture that is still markedly homophobic. It's troubling how many of these citations are evaporating on closer inspection. Did you not read them properly? Or did you not expect us to read them properly? –
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I think going too far in trying to justify the names comes across as editorializing, but some context would help. Would the sources support something like, "... in the tradition of similar irreverent nicknames for other Dublin
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there be any. How is someone to say that something which is objectively objectionable was not "intended" to be objectionable. There are people who use the N-word who claim they do not intend to be offensive ("After all don't
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The sourcing for the claim "the statue was given nicknames by
Dubliners" is very weak, one would at least expect some Dublin sources for the inference that these nicknames are anything like common in Dublin/Ireland.
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Good job! That is a gold-plated source. And you helped the reader by concealing its bibliographic information and just providing a link. Who says that crowd-sourcing an encyclopedic reference will just produce crap?
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use it?") The argument that the "intent" is dispositive is really a form of trolling. The only way this should be in an encyclopedia is if there were an article on "The Bigotry of the Irish" or some such piece.
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2343:- It's unencyclopedically trivial information that doesn't help the reader understand the subject of the statue, the statue itself, or the artist who was commissioned to create the statue Danny Osborne. WP:V
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The sourcing is more than sufficient (indeed I have just added one about it from New Zealand!) plus it is in keeping with other Dublin statue articles that feature their humourous nicknames such as
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article, but unless they have a very good psychic they have no way of knowing what Wilde would have thought about it, and we have no responsibility to repeat baseless, shoddy journalism. –
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Forgot that was on there, I guess I just forgot to add the 2nd author a year ago. But still goes to show that you have such a book using the nicknames. Thank you for pointing that out
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shouldn't be there at all (although the link no longer seems to work for me). You may be right about Smith. Incidentally, how often do Dubliners use the word "fag" in that way?
1966:. I think we already reached a satisfactory consensus on this a year ago, with the nicknames being relegated to the barest mention at the bottom of the article (as opposed to
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knowledge of his homosexuality.”? Alternatively, we could leave it as is, and trust that the reader will follow up with the cited source if curious about the nicknames.--
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After another pass through the sources, I can really only find 2-3 low to mid quality sources supporting the nicknames. The nicknames probably only barely pass
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I very much agree with you. I think that that is an appropriate change that would improve the article and keep the important information in tact. Thank you!
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I don't think an academic paper and several other sources is weak. Nevertheless I have just added two more books covering the subject for your perusal.
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You can keep adding sources till the cows come home, it doesn't change the fact that they are not in common usage. Though obviously I can't prove this!
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2302:- Ah! Ok. There's perfect. I didn't actually look at the position before making my comment. I just didn't want anyone to stick this stuff in the lead.
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Just because some locals have made a mockery of this statue and Wilde and Osborne in the process, doesn't mean Knowledge (XXG) should follow suit.
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Aside of the fact they are covered in an academic paper and numerous books? Why should quare be given preference over fag or queer, just asking?
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dublin pronunciation of the word queer), so in the interest of compromise, I'd suggest removing the first two and leaving just the "Quare" one.
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There is consensus that the nicknames for the status should not be included in the article. While most editors believed that the nicknames were
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He's pretty clear that his policy-based reasons are that the information is not of an encyclopedic nature. The only person mentioning
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is the only image at Commons showing the depiction of Dionysus. Should this be added to the article, within or outside an infobox? ---
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It appears that enough people are having trouble with this (myself included) that it should be the subject of a Request for Comment.
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assertion. Are we to assume that it's baed on a view of the natural mischievousness of the Irish? I am wondering why the article on
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If we had multiple mainstream quality broadsheets reporting, then maybe. But not enough support as far as I can see to keep these.
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2259:- I did a brief Google and it seems like multiple RS are available to verify these nicknames. The main standard for inclusion is
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The sourcing for the claim "the statue was given nicknames by Dubliners" is pretty weak, and as such, it seems a clear case of
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are not, in fact, homosexual slurs? That page isn't available on Google Books and I'm unable to access the eBook elsewhere. –
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Possibly. If there are details about the other sculptures, we might create separate sections for organizational purposes. ---
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Although nicknames can be verified in RS, in this instance this is not encyclopedic information and borderlines defamatory.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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given to what local idiots call a work of art, but this rubbish about it not being offensive has to go. I can't read the
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But I also thought people were arguing that "sourcing is more than adequate" and "sourcing is more than sufficient"?
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As this isn't a musical sculpture (as far as I know), no objections. But, wow, Constance looks pretty big there.
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Well yes, although I generally prefer books that have a content and readership pitched slightly higher than the
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and these nicknames seem to hit that. I'd probably put this items way down in the body of the article though.
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pointed out a year ago, it's hardly a matter of encyclopedic interest to repeat these slurs in this article.
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Well, that's a coincidence. Currently, they could not be any lower down, unless they were just a footnote.
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doesn't have some of the colorful nicknames that impish white New Yorkers have had for it over the years.
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I added 2 infoboxes. I'm sure more parameters need to be filed in, but yay or nay on their inclusion? ---
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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on Knowledge (XXG). If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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I made them less wide, and they can be adjusted further as needed. What do you mean re: musical? ---
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Seems several materials were used, but I went ahead and added the category for stone sculpture. ---
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I've started the RfC. I think it's useful to ping the previous people involved in this discussion:
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I see no policy based reason being used here against inclusion. I would like to point him towards
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no authority that can be cited to say that "fag" and "queer" are not "intended" as a slur nor
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p.s. Amazon lists it as "The O'Brien Press (24 Oct. 2011)" There's an independent.ie review
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I've boldly removed the unreliable sources and mind-reading of Wilde's posthumous reaction.
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Oh well, I guess it could be cropped. Just like Dionysus, I guess it's basically 'armless.
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I'll go ahead and add, so all 3 are pictured, and we can continue to adjust as needed. ---
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Yes, I see now that Smith says they are both made of bronze and granite, so have added.
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I found Chapter 2 particularly enlightening: "Scraping shite off boots with a stick".
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I agree. Most of it is stone. Although are the two flanking sculptures in bronze?
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does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article.
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I agree about the irrelevance of the offensiveness. But I'm pretty sure the
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Should this article be tagged with the WikiProject LGBT studies banner? ---
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Articles created or improved during WikiProject Europe's 10,000 Challenge
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Plus how can the book be out of date when it was only written last year?
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just because the harmless nicknames include the words fag and queer.
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Removal of Smith quote in Impact and significance section Comment
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Inviting you to this discussion as well, based on your edits. ---
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is nicknamed "The Queer with the Leer" and "The Fag on the Crag"?
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I agree. I think the subject is relevant to the WikiProject. ---
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Template:Did you know nominations/Oscar Wilde Memorial Sculpture
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intended with no malice. Like all situations, context is key.
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offensive or not is entirely irrelevant to their inclusion.--
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The ending does not seem awkward. How about leave it as it?
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We now have the same book written by two different authors?
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for someone who has access to check and to do so. Thanks.
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Thanks. I added a category for bronze sculptures, too. ---
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Articles created or improved during Wiki Loves Pride 2017
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is you, while I think most other people are focusing on
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that supports the assertion that the homosexual slurs
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Thanks to Mr Joyce, I think you'll find it's already
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their own section and prominent mention in the lead
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2045:Pointy fags or non-pointy fags, I've deleted the
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1681:All in all, I'd say that photo was an
2826:Knowledge (XXG) Did you know articles
2103:and de gustibus non est disputandum.
530:Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Sculpture
231:A record of the entry may be seen at
7:
1782:The following discussion is closed.
963:Dublin English: Evolution and Change
740:The 20,000 Challenge: UK and Ireland
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510:This article is within the scope of
334:This article is within the scope of
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277:It is of interest to the following
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1970:, when the discussion started). –
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14:
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465:Template:WikiProject LGBT studies
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2871:Start-Class visual arts articles
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197:Oscar Wilde Memorial Sculpture
25:Oscar Wilde Memorial Sculpture
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2809:07:03, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
2791:04:24, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
2767:22:07, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
2497:15:17, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
1791:Should the sentence listing "
1347:Category:Sculptures by medium
644:This article is supported by
614:and see a list of open tasks.
524:and see a list of open tasks.
348:and see a list of open tasks.
42:Put new text under old text.
2831:Start-Class Ireland articles
1631:Update: Now 3 infoboxes. ---
357:Template:WikiProject Ireland
2746:21:54, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
2732:21:06, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
2717:19:00, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
2480:03:27, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
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1775:01:28, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
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1497:Certainly. Sarah Smith's
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1784:Please do not modify it.
1474:Category:LGBT in Ireland
1277:WikiProject LGBT studies
440:WikiProject LGBT studies
209:column on 15 June 2017 (
2051:source that required a
1801:The Quare in the Square
1793:The Queer with the Leer
603:WikiProject Visual arts
1995:Floozie in the Jacuzzi
1991:The Tart with the Cart
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626:visual arts articles
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2881:Public art articles
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2570:God Save the Queen!
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2111:God Save the Queen!
2009:God Save the Queen!
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