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the set of Areas of Cape Town is not a useful distinction and should be scrapped. Neighbourhoods which do not map onto suburbs are a legitimate distinction, but we need to know that they are not just suburbs under a different classification, and that there should be an article for them explaining why they are not the same as an officially listed suburb. Both suburbs and neighbourhoods are regions of Cape Town, places in Cape Town, and areas of Cape Town. They are also, as a general rule, populated places in Cape Town, So is my house. It is a place in Cape Town, and people live in it as a permanent address, but it is unlikely to ever have a
Knowledge (XXG) article. Like Areas of Cape Town, Populated places in Cape Town is mostly useless as a distinction. They are only useful as categories to hold idnadequately categorised articles. The outline structure should reflect the city structure. I would normally just fix this, but my edits to this article have been reverted without clear reasons before, so I am treating this as a controversial area and discussing first. · · ·
462:, You may well be right that the distinction between "Cape Town" and the "City of Cape Town" is the source of the misunderstanding. Now we have to find out who is misunderstanding what. I suggest that the "City of Cape Town", the municipality, is with a few exceptions such as the Prince Edward Islands, an aspect of "Cape Town" the geographical and sociopolitical entity, and that "Cape Town" includes almost everything in "City of Cape Town" (except the Prince Edward Islands), but there is a lot more to "Cape Town" than the municipality that runs it, for examples, the geography, history, environment, population, climate, politics and economy to name a few. I also suggest that the areas of continental Africa administered by the "City of Cape Town" are legally and logically parts of "Cape Town". Do you have a definition for "Cape Town" that excludes any parts of "City of Cape Town" other than the Prince Edward Islands? Cheers, · · ·
388:, I have just noticed that you removed from the list the actual suburb in which I live and pay rates to the City of Cape Town. Perhaps we should start by defining what a suburb is for the purposes of this list. My assumption, in the absence of anything to the contrary, was that it includes any built-up area which is serviced by the same municipality. i.e If the City of Cape Town charges rates, provides water and electricity, then the area is in a suburb of Cape Town. There may well be edge cases where a named area could be considered only part of a suburb and not a full suburb in its own right, there are districts which contain several suburbs, there have been historical changes, and there are regions where there are local municipal offices, however they remain part of the City of Cape Town. It is a simpler case than London, but still fairly complex. · · ·
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in this context? The meaning can vary according to local usage. I would claim to live in a neighbourhood of a few blocks in at least two official suburbs of
Somerset West, which in turn is an officially listed suburb of Cape Town. This neighbourhood has no name and is in no way particularly notable. I would not even be able to fix its borders, yet it is a neighbourhood, and I have neighbours who live in it. In South African usage a neighbourhood is a diffuse concept, seldom defined by fixed borders and not usually named. Knowledge (XXG) articles do not alwys use the most appropriate terminology, and are often written by people with little or no local knowledge. An area of Cape Town can also be a neighbourhood in Cape Town, and a suburb of Cape Town. In general, a suburb
362:, Are you basing your decisions on the content of the articles as opposed to any reliable external source? That is very similar in reliability to me having lived in the city for more than 50 years - ie. questionable. If that is the case we just have to check and fix the articles, or find references for the outline. However, I suggest that as your criterion for removal is just as lacking in reliable sources as mine for inclusion, please rather query the inclusion to indicate your uncertainty about what to me is trivially obvious, though admittedly, could also be wrong. Alternatively you could assume good faith and check them yourself.
1234:. A short introductory comment at the start of a section can be appropriate, but not a whole bunch of text content interspersed with list links, which would need local referencing. If I misunderstand you, please clarify your point. The links I put in the History of Cape Town section are for articles about historical structures in Cape Town. In some cases it is possible that the historical content of those articles may be a bit tenuous, I have not studied them in detail, but it seems that you think they are not appropriate in principle, so I ask what type of article you think
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immediately obviously not suburbs, and many clearly are. Knowledge (XXG) makes whatever distinctions the editors make, which can be updated as better data becomes available. In this case is would appear that some editors have categorized to the best information they had available at the time. That does not mean that the categorization is perfect and should not be changed, it means that the editors who did it were not in possession of all the information.
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to leave a trail of references supporting changes. In things like navboxes the references must be in the linked articles, and may already be there, so if something is not obviously correct, please ask before reverting, but also accept that it is possible I may make a mistake occasionally, and feel free to ask if there is doubt. Some references may not be accessible on the internet. That does not make them inadmissible. Cheers, · · ·
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417:, I think that is not the sort of question one is allowed to ask on Knowledge (XXG), but as I edit under my real identity, and you could probably find out by an internet search, I don't mind telling you that it is Somerset West. Now that I have freely answered your questions, maybe you could answer some of mine which are probably more pertinent to the topic.
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than the transclusion, you are free to do that at any time. Deleting an article because a small part of the content is the same as in another article is not on any list of deletion criteria that I am aware of. Summary sections for split-out content are often based on the lead for the split-out article, or vice versa. Cheers, · · ·
324:, you deleted a number of what I have always known as suburbs, with edit summaries stating that they are not suburbs. Please let me know how you came to these decisions. If you are working from an official city listing or something similar I would like to know where to find it. Please ping with reply. · · ·
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Then, please edit the articles to show clearly what these places really are. For clarity's sake, the articles must be corrected, categorised properly, and be mentioned in the List of Cape Town suburbs and the template. This work is necessary not only for the
Outline, but for the topic of Cape Town in
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I have looked, some of those populated places are suburbs, possibly all of them. Not being specified as a suburb on
Knowledge (XXG) does not necessarily mean the place is not a suburb, it may just mean the article is incomplete or inaccurate. I have not checked all of them, but none of the names were
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According to what in WP? What are "areas"? The extent of a surface is its area, my back yard is an area in Cape Town. The City planning department would confirm thise if anyone was to ask. I am fairly sure that niether of those meanings is intended. How is the word "neighbourhoods" to be interpreted
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Would you accept a map of urban areas supplied with electricity by the City of Cape Town as sufficient evidence that those areas are in suburbs of Cape Town? I can get that easily. Note that the City of Cape Town produces no electricity, except for emergency purposes, it just distributes electricity
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Outlines, from the general (Outline of mathematics) to the somewhat specific (Outline of algebraic structures), are part of
Knowledge (XXG)'s Contents navigation system, and are indexed at Portal:Contents/Outlines. A type of tree structure, they are hierarchies of subjects organized as a structured
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The more I look into it the bigger the mess appears to be. The navbox groups communities (mostly suburbs) wrongly at times. This is going to take a bit of research to fix. I would appreciate co-operation, and discussion where things are not clear. I may not have time to fix everything, but will try
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both an area and a neighbourhood, but an area does not have to map exactly to either a neighbourhood or a suburb. I see no point in duplicating all suburbs in the list of areas or the list of neighbourhoods, as thy are generally subsets, but that is not how the outline is structured. I suggest that
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Harmonising the information in the articles, categories and template is a worthy ambition, and I may do some of it when I have the time and inclination, but improving the layout of the outline does not have to wait for everything else to be done first. Doing things in parallel or in any other order
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A quick check against a list of suburbs of Cape Town from the City of Cape Town planning department shows that most of those populated places in the category are listed as suburbs by the City of Cape Town. Those not on the list are not necessarily not suburbs of Cape Town, as I do not know that the
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In the continued absence of any useful response, I will be editing the list to reflect the official status of some suburbs not currently listed as such, based on referenced updates in the suburb articles indicating their official status. These suburbs are listed in the references I added below, and
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Annotations are content, and may need references if challenged. In a very long outline this could lead to a very long reference section. Transcluded content can be referenced in the source article, and should not need to be referenced again when used as an annotation. I suggest that the use of the
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A transcluded piece of text has the advantage of serving a useful purpose in more than one place, as opposed to requiring update in different places, and in this case provides a far better introduction than the previous situation, which was none at all. If you feel that you can write a better lead
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Not personally very keen, but it is probably going to happen unless there is a good reason to prevent it, and I don't know of any. I will make a space and with any luck people will add them in the right place. I will specify the scope as only schools with a
Knowledge (XXG) article. Cheers, · · ·
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There is no special reason that I know of why an article link should only be listed once in an outline, and there are outlines where it is quite logical to list the same article in two or more sections, but in this case I agree that
Tamboerskloof need only be listed in the more specific of the
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What kind of populated place in Cape Town is not a suburb or a neighbourhood, that needs a separate section? Possibly places where it is not clear from the content of the article, but are there any other place types that are populated places but do not belong in any other section? It is fairly
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Before improving the layout of the
Outline I propose harmonising the information contained in the articles, categories, and in the City of Cape Town Metropolitan Municipality template. The (suburbs) articles should be edited to show the precise, current official status of the places, a new
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This means that in the lead section of an outline, there should be a lead sentence identifying the contents of the page as an outline, optionally followed by the primary entry of the outline (a list item presenting the main subject). The name of the subject is the top of the outline's
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I take it that your comment indicates that you think the Marine
Protected Areas should not be listed here, which is what I was asking. The reason it is not immediately clear is that most of them are part of the Table Mountain National Park, of which the entire terrestrial part
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in Cape Town, so it is not as clear cut as one might think at first sight. So we have listed TMNP as in Cape Town, although some of it is not in Cape Town,and do not list parts of TMNP which could be a sub-listing of TMNP because those parts are not in Cape Town. · · ·
1279:, which is linked from the map, but not obviously. The tools in the top menu bar can show a lot of things not normally displayed, such as official suburb borders. For some features it is necessary to zoom in to activate, and to have the right layer visible. · · ·
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which transcludes the linked article's short description, which is inherently referenced via the linked article, or by handcrafting a custom annotation, which is technically independent content and subject to citation requirements in the outline
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about suburbs, then they must be edited to reflect this fact. Moreover, one cannot transclude the lead because the
Outline will be considered a duplicate of the main article and deleted. Outlines must have new, original introductions.
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An outline is not a mere copy of the lead section of the main subject article followed by an unstructured list of links. Even the lead section must be in outline format, to differentiate the outline at first sight from a regular
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Changed to "Regions of Cape Town" as a high level section header for groups of suburbs or districts that are commonly referred to by a regional or district name. Historical regions may be included if there is an article to
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is listed as a neighbourhood and as a shopping area. These are in subsections of different level 3 sections and are probably OK to repeat list in my opinion, as it is a shopping area and a residential area. · · ·
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Being articles, stand-alone lists are subject to Knowledge (XXG)'s content policies, such as verifiability, no original research, neutral point of view, and what Knowledge (XXG) is not, as well as the notability
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I am not sure how to go about this. If anyone has suggestions, go ahead. If no suggestions are forthcoming I will do what I can, and request anyone who does not like it to do better, rather than revert. · · ·
684:, Please discuss on this talk page any further reversions of my edits before removing what as far as I am aware are entirely legitimate changes which improve the article. Please ping with reply. Cheers, · · ·
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regional groups it belongs to, which in my opinion is as a suburb, as there will be specific borders available, whereas neighbourhoods in South Africa tend to be more vaguely defined. I will make the change.
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categorisation should be made, then correct the template. In this way we will obtain a clear picture of the populated places in the City of Cape Town and put it in the Outline. —
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I do not see the point in having a timeline as part of the outline, Better to have it a separate article or as part of the main topic, and link to it from the guideline. · · ·
369:. I am not aware of policy or guideline stating this. If there is, please direct me to it. If you disagree with this transclusion for logical reasons, I am open to discussion.
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is a quite reasonable alternative provided it is done correctly. Is there any chance you will at some time answer some of the questions I have asked you? · · ·
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Concerning the mess, I am in complete agreement with you. There is no hurry, better to let the work progress slowly and thoroughly. One question, please:
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Sooner or later someone will either complain about or change the section titles, on grounds that they do not need to all specify in or of Cape Town per
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These are not very well known, so I am listing them here as free access official data from the City of Cape Town, so probably fairly reliable. · · ·
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list is complete or up to date. Bakoven is listed as part of Camp's Bay. Cape Town would not normally be considered a suburb of Cape Town. · · ·
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You remove the history of Cape Town, replace it with irrelevant links, and now you want to add subjects that are not in Cape Town?
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obvious that all suburbs and neighbourhoods are populated places, so the layout of the outline could be improved. Cheers, · · ·
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Cape Town, but are directly adjacent. However they are part of the Table Mountain National Park, the terrestrial part of which
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and other populated places in the City of Cape Town. In this case, the Outline should also make this distinction. —
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lists marine fishes, and the same argument applies - either both should cover the marine sector or neither. · · ·
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I removed text content that is not clearly appropriate in an outline. This outline should not include a fork of
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What about the introduction? Should there be one to establish context? Would a transcluded excerpt from the
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There is room for schools in the "Education" section, if you wish. A few universities are already there...—
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so any text content is required to be referenced if challenged. This could lead to large reference section.
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is a neighbourhood and a suburb. I think it should be listed only once in the Outline, but where? Cheers, —
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1104:. I may do this myself. If there is any special reason not to do this, please explain here. Cheers, · · ·
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Are annotated links considered good, bad or indifferent? Links can be annotated by using the template
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Some of these questions may be more complex than they look at first glance. Cheers, · · ·
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are on official maps of the City, many of which can be found on official websites. · · ·
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To be used for populated places described in their articles as neighbourhoods that are
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Regarding transclusion of the lead from the main article on the topic: You state that
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be linked in the history section, so we can come to a clear understanding of what
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Do we want a list of schools in Cape Town for which there are WP articles? · · ·
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What are "Populated places in the City of Cape Town Metropolitan Municipality"?
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list including headings, subheadings, and list items (usually bulleted, and
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or another more well-defined type of region with a subsection to list them.
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Should there be content other than internal links? (see history section)
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What authority do we accept for what constitutes a suburb of Cape Town?
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Strictly speaking the Marine Protected Areas around Cape Town are not
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The data sets are in various formats and cover the period 2013 - 2016
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from the national grid as part of municipal services. Cheers, · · ·
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within scope for that section and work together instead of at odds.
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in Cape Town, so are they in scope for this outline? I notice that
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I will remove the vestigial one in the outline. · · ·
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1210:— Preceding
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1102:MOS:SECTIONS
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271:Anchors are
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210:South Africa
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129:
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40:WikiProjects
1216:Cote d'Azur
1150:Cote d'Azur
1054:guidelines.
929:Annotations
900:I see that
864:Cote d'Azur
833:Cote d'Azur
800:Cote d'Azur
713:not suburbs
682:Cote d'Azur
603:Cote d'Azur
572:Cote d'Azur
527:Cote d'Azur
490:Cote d'Azur
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460:Cote d'Azur
447:Cote d'Azur
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402:Cote d'Azur
386:Cote d'Azur
360:Cote d'Azur
347:Cote d'Azur
338:Pbsouthwood
322:Cote d'Azur
1328:Categories
1007:hierarchy.
831:general. —
30:List-class
1060:Discuss:
1013:Discuss:
949:Discuss:
750:Cape Town
435:Cape Town
1224:contribs
1212:unsigned
1004:article.
437:not the
105:Outlines
59:Outlines
1131:Schools
302:before.
295:before.
288:before.
237:on the
132:on the
81:outline
1236:should
888:· · ·
342:indeed
36:scale.
788:areas
766:list.
724:link.
1316:talk
1220:talk
1154:talk
982:Lead
885:Done
868:talk
837:talk
804:talk
790:and
607:talk
576:talk
531:talk
480:talk
451:talk
443:that
406:talk
351:talk
269:Tip:
124:High
1310:. —
798:. —
229:Low
1330::
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345:—
241:.
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42::
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