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latter is the most likely, long-term, because it is easier to apply a rule whether everyone is happy about it or not, than to keep re-litigating the same questions over and over, often with inconsistent results. We've had similar problems with foreign language titles, human job and position and heritable titles, dashes, and several other style matters where MoS had unnecessarily complex rules that have over time simplied but left some people dissatisfied. The overall disruption level of a few being disgruntled versus years of recurrent re-re-re-fighting of the same subjects is pretty obvious math. But it's not enough to make me "demand" lower-case at this time. PS: I will observe that the MoS exception to lower-casing of short "preposition words" when they are part of phrasal verbs, is a long-running and stable one, while the exception for compound prepositions is recent (I think I added it myself, in an attempt to codify the results of several RMs; I don't think it's been subject to an RfC or other more formal "should MoS say
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1679:. While the Knowledge (XXG) MOS states that adjectives should be capitalized, I don't think that this covers adjectival phrases as well. This would be like saying that "the" should be capitalized in "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows" because it is the first word of the noun phrase "the deathly hallows." Instead, the components of a noun phrase are capitalized individually according to their world class, and I believe the same applies to adjectival phrases. "on top" is composed of a preposition and a noun, and short prepositions are lowercased, hence "Love on Top."
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1814:(and calls them an "idiom"). Think of it as a synonym for "atop", which means much the same thing as "on top" except that it uses one word rather than two to express the concept. And there is no particular necessity for a preposition to be followed by another word - as I say, this song could have been called "Love Atop". Or it could also have been "Love Within", "Love Outside". In all those cases we would capitalise the latter word, and "On Top" is the same. Â â
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861:, but it's a compound preposition, not a compound adjective (there is no object noun for it to modify; it's the same construction as "Love Outside" (subject noun, preposition that requires no object), not "Love from Space" (subject noun, unitary preposition, object), or "Love, Hot and Stinky" (subject noun, adjective phrase modifying the subject, which requires a comma, and is obscure Yoda-like syntax).
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1602:, it is appropriate to notify editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic. That the two editors who participated in the previous discussion support the current title is coincidental. I personally have no strong opinion on the matter (I needed to look up what a compound preposition was lol). â
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or the improper application by a learner of norms from another language.) Next, things do not become "un-prepositions" when their objects are abstract instead of concrete, so that's a red herring. "I stood on principle" has a preposition in it no less than does "I stood on an anthill and got bitten
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upper-cases the first word of compound prepositions (even if that word is under 5 letters), and we don't have a codified exception to lower-case ones that are truncated. Given this, and the fact that whether it's really an adverbial usage anyway would require detailed lyrics analysis (which should
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adjectives, in fact). The adverbial uses are directly derived from the adjectival ones (seems to have happened in the
Elizabethan period), and it is not in fact possible to determine that, say, "Love top" is adverbial without further lyrical proof (i.e. a longer sentence that is provably using it
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says to capitalize '... he first word in a compound preposition (e.g. "Time Out of Mind", "Get Off of My Cloud").' This advice is actually slightly misleading, because subsequent words would also be capitalize unless they are short prepositions that would normally not be capitalized. Needs to be
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If we go lower-case, we would need to clarify the MoS rule about this to make the answer clearer next time. It really comes down to whether we, as a community, want to be "fiddly" about such matters, or try to simplify them (in ways that some might find to be over-simplification). I think the
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right in this case to go with "Love On Top". I might feel different about "Love on the Beach". It's like you know that "great green dragon" is OK and "green great dragon". There is a kinda-sorta rule about that somewhere (derived purely from observing use), but mostly you can just tell what
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is a verb). Whether something is "an idiom" or not is irrelevant. (Aside: Everything in a language is idiomatic in one sense or another. If I write "I am to be feeling my heat is of discomfort" (for 'I feel uncomfortably hot') that comes across as not proper
English because it is using
1930:. You can tell when something is a phrasal verb that contains a preposition that has been converted into a phrasal-verb particle and thus gets capitalized, generally by whether or not the meaning has become divorced from the normal prepositional sense(s). E.g.,
1863:: "... his head is bald atop, though hardly from the uneasiness of wearing a crown." So there is no object in "Love Atop/Outside/Within", because atop/outside/within are not used as prepositions here. But in "on top" we have a preposition followed by an object.
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wrong. Sure we're more formal here (a little) but we need to be idiomatic. In this particular case, headcount should actually matter, if there's a reasonable quorum, rather than arguments about plusperfect sesquisential vs pluralist adjectiverb for whatever.
1660:. Nothing has changed since the last RM. The "on" here is not a preposition in the conventional sense, as in there's love on some entity called top. "on top" is in fact a compound adjective, so should be all capitalized as part of this title-case name. Â â
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notifying all of the participants in the previous RM is not canvassing. Especially as both yourself and the nominator have completely failed to explain why the valid reasons for the current title that were given in the previous RM are not longer valid.
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If there had been editors who opposed the previous RM I would have notified them as well (like I said, I have no strong opinion on the title). The fact that the previous discussion was unanimous does not preclude notifying its participants. â
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I agree with you that "on top" is behaving adjectivally in this title. I don't think it is a compound adjective though. That would be something like "part-time", "brand-new" or "never-ending". I think the correct classification is
1620:: "if notices are sent to editors who previously supported deleting an article, then identical notices should be sent to those who supported keeping it." If that's not possible, then I think no notices should be sent at all.
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but "top" in the sense we're talking about here is not an entity in the same way that "the box" or "a girl" would be. The "top" can't be separated from the "on" because they go together. Merriam
Webster
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https://wayback.archive-it.org/all/20121128084413/http://blogs.centrictv.com/music/soulsessions/miguel-tyrese-elle-varner-2-chainz-john-legend-win-big-at-the-soul-train-awards-2012/
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No it's not "the same". We would capitalize the final word in "Love Atop" or "Love Within" because title case capitalizes the first and last word no matter what they are. Also,
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retains the original senses, both of physical position (the on-top sexual position) and of metaphoric position (also found in "I'm feeling on top of the world"). However, WP
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right. I know, it's just my opinion, but come on. That is how people talk... I don't know the rule for who vs whom etc but I know that "to who are you speaking"
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in reference to a dictionary or database is a phrasal verb, because the described action has nothing to do with turning ones eyes/head/gaze upward. Here, being
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it should arguably be upper-case, but this really is an edge case, and I would not be terribly opposed to it going the other way. That would be more
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updated with cases like this there were not thought of by whoever wrote that. I've editing that section to cover this; we'll see if it sticks.
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
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https://web.archive.org/web/20120604070805/http://www.spin.com/articles/run-world-showgirls-beyonce-gets-back-business-atlantic-city
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yeah, sorry I used the wrong term I think. What I meant was it's a compound preposition, as outlined by SMcCandlish above.
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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This can also be approached from another angle. If you look at lists of compound prepositions (for example,
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1788:" is a compound preposition, maybe this is where the confusion comes from. But "on top" isn't.
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is a preposition here, and it has less than five letters, so it should not be capitalized.
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adverbially, and a lack of any adjectival use of the same construction in the work). So
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http://www.spin.com/articles/run-world-showgirls-beyonce-gets-back-business-atlantic-city
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http://music.yahoo.com/blogs/chart-watch/week-ending-sept-11-2011-songs-the-voices.html
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1757:. If you consider "on top" to be a compound preposition, then where is its complement?
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1750:. In "Love on Top", I think "on" is a preposition and "top" is its complement: Love
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Prepositions are used to express a relationship between two objects: The cat is
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Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
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For reference, see the requested move above that supports the current title:
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mentions no special rules regarding idioms. Merriam-Webster also calls "
1411:. There does not seem to be a consensus on the part of speech of "on".
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http://www.webcitation.org/63bEmKvH7?url=http://www.grammy.com/nominees
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would normally get lower-cased, in mid-title, on
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is not a preposition in this title. So it should be left as is.
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be done very carefully here if at all, for copyright reasons),
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Yes, "on top" is an idiom, but idiom is not a word class, and
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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for additional information. I made the following changes:
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On 25 April 2021, it was proposed that this article be
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1847:" idioms. So would you advocate capitalizing "on" in "
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1902:is a noun; adverbial use would be something like
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1220:http://music.ign.com/articles/117/1179556p1.html
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1784:. "on top" doesn't match that pattern. "on top
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1898:: "Love atop the World", for example (where
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1525:22:15, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
1497:21:27, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
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1339:(last update: 5 June 2024)
1195:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
1149:(last update: 5 June 2024)
921:Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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148:free images
31:not a forum
25:Love On Top
2085:Categories
2027:. It just
1861:Wiktionary
1736:. A story
1600:WP:APPNOTE
1536:. Pinging
1371:Report bug
1181:Report bug
835:, and per
313:Not listed
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1962:, or say
1479:permalink
1354:this tool
1347:this tool
1274:dead link
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1164:this tool
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88:if needed
71:Be polite
21:talk page
2060:Dicklyon
1936:look up
1928:on top
1913:idiolect
1845:in error
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1772:, apart
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1422:Aseleste
1360:Cheers.â
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837:MOS:CAPS
364:GA-class
249:reassess
186:Archives
56:get help
29:This is
27:article.
2056:Support
2021:Opppose
2008:Andrewa
1940:on top
1932:look up
1916:a lot."
1887:usually
1865:Darkday
1843:" and "
1831:Amakuru
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1805:Darkday
1790:Darkday
1776:, next
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1278:tag to
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859:Support
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799:Andy W.
558:on the
457:on the
430:Beyoncé
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272:Process
154:WPÂ refs
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1270:Added
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332:Listed
275:Result
126:Google
2038:feels
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1738:about
1616:From
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1461:-----
738:moved
617:Songs
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583:Songs
169:JSTOR
130:books
84:Seek
2064:talk
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